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What is the current state of mines?
e30ernest
Member Posts: 1,794 Arc User
Just fishing around... I've never played with mines. It's not being talked about much so I'm guessing they are bad at the moment? Just looking for some build variation. 
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Either way, mines do not seem to be something you can actually base a build upon - carrying any more than two mine launchers is a waste of space due to shared cooldowns which is iirc 12 seconds (compared to that, you can fire all your torps before the cooldown on the first one finishes)... So yeah, occasional usefulness in spike damage, and they also sometimes saved me from destructible torps (they home on them and destroy them before they reach you, especially if you backpedal through your own minefield, so that the mines are between you and the torps).
Granted, a lot of people are going to answer "spike damage" which then tends to lead in some very specific directions (Dispersal Pattern Beta III being first and foremost, since it's a straight up multiplier to QUANTITY of Mines deployed). If you're looking for straight up *damage* out of your Mines, then you need to start thinking in terms of shield penetration ... which tends to lend itself towards the old standby choices of either Plasma or Transphasic, although, weirdly enough, there is something to be said for (of all things) Nukara Web Mines.
The second thing you need to decide, if you're going after Mines is ... are you after Area Effect (typically in conjunction with Gravity Well) or are you looking more towards Single Target. Most of the standard Mines have an Area Effect when they detonate, so dumping them into a pile of Gravity Well "washing machine" churn typically has some rather spectacular effects. It's also possible to craft Mines with the [Radius] mod to increase the volume that they will inflict their damage upon, which might be useful depending on the rest of your build (and use of Gravity Well). However, not all Mines are multi-target when they attack. Nukara Web Mines are, again, an oddball, in that they're (each) effectively Single Target, while Cloaking Tractor Mines obviously deploy a Single Target Tractor Beam each.
The third thing you need to decide is whether you are going to be using 0, 1 or 2 Mine Launchers. The "correct" answer in almost all cases is going to be either 0 or 1, and only *very* rarely is the slotting of 2 Mine Launchers ever going to be justified and/or reasonable. The reason for this consideration is the punitive global and shared cooldown regime that prevents Mines from becoming a ... decisive ... choice. However, if you've got Mines with relatively long cooldowns (24 seconds or longer) a case can be made for equipping a pair of Mine Launchers instead of just 1.
Another thing to consider is whether you are planning on using your Mines for straight up "damage" primarily, or if they're intended to be used as a compliment to a "control" build. All of the basic Mines are essentially just additional damage sources, but Nukara Web Mines and Cloaking Tractor Mines offer additional control options not found among the other choices. As such, the decision on whether to use Dispersal Pattern Beta III or (wait for it...) Dispersal Pattern Alpha I or II can have some decidedly tactical implications. Most people eschew DPA on the grounds that it doesn't dump all the damage/effect of the Mines all at once onto the Foes they affect, resulting in a "spread" of the usefulness of the Mines. However, for some purposes, DPA is superior to DPB, even if you have to downrank because DPA III is (still!) nowhere to be found within the game. With DPA, you can "stagger" the effect of Nukara Web Mines in such a way as to have them hit in stages, rather than all at once, which enhances the usefulness of their Stun duration by, in effect, "extending" it over more time. Likewise, with DPA, Cloaking Tractor Mines can function as an Area Denial Strategy over a wider volume of space(!) and form a much more effective "YOU. SHALL. NOT. MOVE!" line. Cloaking Tractor Mines can also prove mighty effective in conjunction with Gravity Well (for what should be obvious reasons).
The last thing to be concerned with is ... Enhanced Battle Cloak ... for what should be obvious reasons. Deployment of Mines does not drop the Cloak, so it is perfectly possible to deploy Mines (particularly against PvE NPCs) without drawing any aggro. This can sometimes offer a means to defeat/destroy NPCs without needing to rely upon direct battle. This is typically found in the "Torpedo Bomber" builds often seen for B'Rel/T'varo builds. You'll also need to be aware of the fact that some NPCs are "smart" about Mines, while some are "dumb" about them, and you'll just have to find out for yourself which are which. A lot of NPCs will target your Mines if they can't target YOU (because you're Cloaked or out of range or they're Confused/Placated/whatever), but not all of them will. I've found that some NPCs completely "vapor lock" onto my ship and will ignore the Tractor Beams from Cloaked Tractor Mines completely ... to the point that over time (a lot of time), the Tractor Beams can actually destroy the ship they're attacking(!) while I patiently sit nearby in total safety under Enhanced Battle Cloak. Other NPCs will just reflexively attack ANYTHING nearby that isn't friendly, including my Mines, especially if the Mines are damaging them. One solution to this problem is to give the NPCs a "distraction" so as to keep them from focusing on the Mines ... either myself or a Photonic Fleet.
A final mention needs to be made about ... AUX Power. It has been my experience that both Torpedoes and Mines increase their damage potential with increased AUX Power ... even if you do NOT have the Space Nukara Offensive Trait activated. This means that for Science heavy AUX Power builds, you can deliver some reasonably effective damage through Mines (assuming they don't get shot down by Fire At Everything Forever). At 130-135 AUX Power, the Space Nukara Offensive Trait will typically add something in the neighborhood of +6.5-6.8% to All Damage, which is nothing to sneeze at, which then gets stacked on top of whatever AUX Power is doing for your Torpedoes and Mines already. Try it for yourself. Go sit in orbit somewhere, mouse over either your Torpedoes or your Mines and dial your AUX Power up and down and watch the tooltip show different damage throughputs and the Power rises and falls. This can make a rather significant difference to the amount of Plasma burn damage throughput represented on the tooltip. Needless to say, this sort of thing tends to mean that any sort of Aux2Battery usage will tend to crash the usefulness of your Kinetic weapons, to the point of "why bother?" So think of AUX Power as being "needed" for Kinetic weapons in the same way that Weapon Power is needed for Energy weapons. Pretty much the same reasoning.
If you're going to be using Mines at all, I'd recommend getting the Hot Pursuit lockbox trait, for what should be obvious reasons. Giving your Mines a double radius to detect and pursue Foes just makes them far too useful.
All of that said, Mines need not be confined to only Torpdeo Boat builds, let alone high end builds at Tier 6 or even EBC builds. I've found that putting a Mine Launcher onto a Starfleet Cruiser in the Tier 1-4 range and setting it on Autofire to have some decidedly advantageous results during broadsiding while running the Merry-go-Round, even without use of DPA or DPB. Mines can also be useful for "soaking" destructible Torpedoes (and Mines) from opponents, in addition to swatting down pesky Fighters (who tend to blunder into them).
The key thing is that Mines are not going to represent a MASSIVEDEEPS addition to most builds. Instead, you want to look at them from a *utility* standpoint. Nukara Web Mines are just ... bizarre ... in how they work, since they do ZERO impact damage (and thus do not benefit at all from Omega Kinetic Shearing!), but they instead inflict a Damage over Time that is Physical(!) damage (which, in space, NOTHING resists) in addition to a short Stun, which can be boosted by Subspace Decompiler. Add up the damage from a DPB III deployment of Nukara Web Mines at maximum AUX Power and a single "volley" of 8 of them adds up to well over 40k damage over just a few seconds. Unfortunately, they only have 50% Shield Penetration, but in that time they will typically HALT the movement of whatever they hit, which could potentially be useful for setting up a High Yield Torpedo shot, or making sure that an NPC "holds still" while you hit them with a Tyken's Rift and set them up for maximum drain. The Nukara Particle Console that goes with the Nukara Web Mines offers Particle Generators (about +20 when upgraded, so not wonderful) but the 2pc set bonus is Flow Capacitors, which can make for an interesting "swing role" combo of Particle Generators and Flow Capacitors that if equipped into an Engineering Console slot offers a way to add [PGens] and [Flow] by spending an Engineering and Weapon slot, which isn't THAT bad of a deal. Season to taste with either DPA (staggered over time Stuns) or DPB (higher damage throughput *quickly*) depending on preferences.
The thing is that in some builds, use of Mines gives you additional OPTIONS for how to deal with hostile situations in PvE, especially with Enhanced Battle Cloak, where you don't necessarily need to expose yourself to retaliation. And depending on the types of Mines you're using, you can either *buy time* for yourself with them (Nukara Web Mines, Cloaking Tractor Mines, and to some extent (maybe?), Tricobalt Mines) or they can represent a "you are already dead, you just haven't gotten the memo yet" option, particularly with Plasma Mines delivering Plasma Burn to "cook" Foes inside their (largely) intact Shields.
The one thing which I am very disappointed in regarding Mines is that sometime in the past year or so, a change was made such that Mines no longer procced Attack Pattern Beta. It used to be that Mines "counted" as being your own weapons for the purposes of Attack Pattern Beta, so a "cloud" of Mines detonating on a Foe could rack up a really high APB Debuff in a big hurry, making the Mines MUCH more effective. Regrettably, Cryptic nerfed that aspect and decreed that Mines "don't count" for applying APB stacks anymore, which seriously hurt their potential for delivering throughput onto their $Target.
Protonic Kool-Aid Down The Drain Cruiser
Immortal BOff Skills combo for Ground
Yeah I was looking into mines more as a supplementary damage source for my Hestia. It's rear torp isn't seeing much use so I was thinking about slotting a mine in its place. But after learning that my +Php Locators/Exploiters won't help a photon mine (it needs +Mine) I had to backtrack on that plan a bit. Still weighing my options though.
Edit: I stand corrected... it seems +Php Locators/Exploiters do boost Photon Mines. Thank you @tunebreaker!
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The first drawback is that they're not going to be overly fast. When everyone else is killing things with beams, you have to deploy your mines, wait for them to arm, then be triggered, and then fly toward the target before actually doing damage. This can sometimes take too long... especially on a moving target, which can move out of range too.
Secondly, they're targetable. Most NPC's will shoot them down if you don't give them something else to worry about, which obviously means no damage for you.
Lastly, and this is probably the most important part... they're kinetic damage, which means like torpedoes, they struggle against targets with high shield HP or regen.
With all that being said, we had a lot of fun trying to do ISA with only 3 of us, and only using mines! That was until we got to the tac cube. It's shields just made everything take ages! We still managed it, but missed the time optional. I tried transphasics for their shield bypass, but the damage they do kinda sucks so it didn't work so well. Tricobalts are awesome and make big numbers, but the drawback is that even with DPB you only deploy 4 mines, so easy for them to be picked off by NPC's.
ISA Mine Edition
I definitely recommend playing with mines for fun. I really enjoyed doing bombing runs hehe.
Obviously that video was a bit silly, and with forward energy weapons you could take down the shields on the tac cube a bit quicker than we did.
Also keep in mind that things like CCA lend themselves to kinetic damage, so maybe try tricobalts in there.
I can see mines being useful in any mission where you've gotta stop NPC's going from A > B, so that would be ISA, CSA, KSA etc. You can pretty much have a player park up and mine the hell out of the area those NPC's are going to pass through.
It's the shield resist that really spoils it for me though. I really wish they would consider the many suggestions people have come up with for altering this mechanic. At least then kinetic weapons would have a chance.
All they'd need to do is make tachyon beam decent with some kind of trait or duty officer that makes it an AOE shield drain
Yes that would at least give a reason to slot it, currently the only time Tachyon Beam is any good is when a Borg Sphere shoots you with it, and we can't get anywhere near that power.
My preferred improvement for kinetics in general is a reduction of a shield's resistance to kinetic damage as the facing's hit-points drop. A 1% sliver should not be able to soak up the impact from a full HY torp hitting it.
That alone would make things like tetryon weapons and tachyon beams useful as they could knock off enough hit-points for the torps/mines to punch clean through the shields.
An interesting thought just occurred to me. Provided your tactical plans involve getting shot at yourself, Attack Pattern Delta ought to still synergize with Mines acceptably, even though Attack Pattern Beta doesn't apply stacks from Mine hits. Basic idea is that when you see your Mines begin pursuit of a specific $Target, hit them with Attack Pattern Delta and "encourage" them to attack your ship. By attacking you they'll proc APD on themselves, which debuffs their Resistances and will then boost Mine damage throughput.
Perhaps a little more complicated than absolutely necessary in terms of coordination and timing, and if you're flying an Enhanced Battle Cloak you REALLY don't want to be taking fire at all (if you can help it) ... but for ships that don't cloak at all, might be a worthwhile option to enhance performance.
Protonic Kool-Aid Down The Drain Cruiser
Immortal BOff Skills combo for Ground