IIRC the Constitution, Excelsior, Ambassador and even the Cheyenne were designed to have the saucer separation feature. That doesn't mean we need the feature on every damn ship that can utilize it. We've seen it happen with the Galaxy on screen, and thus that's made it into the game. Until we see a Sovereign (or other ship) do the same on our tv screens, and with a justification for that capability, I would rather not see the feature thrown onto every ship that's going for it.
At the moment, it's a unique feature to the Galaxy. Lets keep it that way.
I agree a T6 Sovy would be nice. I think the T6 version should have a detachable Captains Yacht, and "Maybe" a single fighter bay, Extra console slots, Maybe 1 additional BO slot (Lt. Universal perhaps) and of course Improved Hull, Shields, Etc.
Fleet Admiral Nyte T'challa-United Federation of Planets-Task Force Draco-Tactical "No matter where you go, there you are." "I found a bug in Beta, Cryptic squished it. STO Founder and Proud LTS member."
As this is a "hero" (as seen on the TV/movie) ship, I don't think they'll make three different versions of it just like they didn't with the Galaxy, Defiant, etc. As it is an assault ship and was shown in the movie with the manual steering column, I'm also hoping that they make it a Pilot ship. I also hope they make the Lt. UNIV to Lt.CMD UNIV.
Yeah, I'm also hoping they make her a pilot ship, as there is still no pilot cruiser out there, and Sovereign could definitely fit that role, because she is sleek and maneuverable enough to be one. Besides there is no point in reserving entire pilot specialization for escorts only and especially because there are command and intelligence escorts in game already (Phantom as Intel escort, Alita/Akira and Hestia/Prometheus as command escorts).
If they don't make her a pilot cruiser, I'm hoping they will go for Intel option as there are only 2 more cruisers which fit that role compared to many other command cruisers. There are enough of command ships out there already, and not too many pilot and intelligence ones.
Btw that manual steering column is not a bad idea.
Calling it an 'assault cruiser' is just fitting it into the more tactical meta-environment of this game.
It wasn't really an assault ship in the movies, just a more heavily armed Explorer ship, a Heavy Explorer, to deal with Borg incursions. At least that's what I recall, I can't remember where I read/heard/saw that though.
In Federation it seems that explorer is just an euphemism for any kind of vessel, even when it comes to ones obviously orientated towards combat role. Only in later shows they started to correct that with giving Defiant designation as escort (which is yet another euphemism, but it is still a better and more accurate term than giving ships like Sovereign class a designation of explorer). However, I think that in movies was never stated which type of ship Sovereign is, therefore I don't think why she couldn't be assault cruiser or even battlecruiser. In some other Trek games she was even called a battleship (Armada 1/2, Legacy, Starfleet Command 3...). Besides that, given her combat capabilities Sovereign class is no (ordinary) explorer (and neither the Galaxy was really that given the fact that she was Starfleet's most powerful vessel at a given time), yet she would rather fit a role of battlecruiser at least, if not a battleship. But we all know how Federation must hide such things because of its peaceful agenda and even Starfleet's most heavily armed vessel couldn't be called outright battleships, battlecruisers, destroyers and such. For me personally Sovereign class is no less than a heavy cruiser.
Those stats are... way out of line. I love the sovereign as much as the nest guy... but wow... no.
I thought it might seem like a long shot at first glance, but the truth is that that's really not the case. I was taking in comparison stats of some other STO vessels similar to Sovereign and her T5 counterpart. Command cruisers for example gave me some ideas and later some of other T6 releases too. So let me justify those stats a bit.
Hull points (46547 at lvl 50, 56000 at lvl 60) - If you take a look at hull points for T6 command cruisers, Arbiter battlecruiser, Exploration and other T6 cruisers, you will notice that numbers are somewhat around the ones I come up with for T6 Sovereign. She should not have less hull points from Andromeda, and definitely not less from those command cruisers. That would be unacceptable for me, as I don't want to see a Sovereign class as underpowered ship when in canon she is one of the most powerful and most advanced vessels in Starfleet.
Shield modifier (1.12 at lvl 50 and 1.13 at lvl 60) - Same thing like with hull points. I took look on other cruisers and came up with numbers in brackets. Anything less than those figures would be unacceptable.
Turn rate (8) - Do I really have to point out that over 100-150 years old Excelsior class has turn rate of 8 (not to mention Constitution with turn rate of 9)? That would indicate Sovereign should have at least turn rate of 7.5, while 8 would be more than realistic. Especially if it comes out as a pilot ship.
Crew (800) - That remains the same like it was on T5 version.
4 fore weapons slots and 4 aft weapon slots (although I would prefer 5/3 setting) - Again, I don't think I should explain this as it will probably stay the same as it was on T5 Sovereign. However, I would prefer 5/3 setting because Sovereign always seemed to me more forward heavy. But that's most probably just a wishful thinking, unfortunately.
4 eng/4 tac/3 sci for pilot variant, 5 eng/3 tac/3 sci for command variant and 3 eng/4 tac/4 sci consoles for intelligence variant - I think that makes the most sense since Sovereign is assault cruiser and that means more combat oriented ship, therefor this setup seem likely enough to me, with having in mind pilot variant as predominant between those 3 options.
Saucer separation ability - I'm aware this probably won't happen, but you have to admit that it is interesting idea. However, I can live without it.
Captain's yacht - Now this is something that we saw on screen and therefore it should be available to us. If Galaxy/Andromeda class can have saucer separation, if Odyssey can have both that and Aquarius escort, I really see no reason why Sovereign shouldn't have her yacht.
Hangar bay with Argo, Type 11 shuttles or Federation Mission Scoutships (Argo for command version, Type 11 for intelligence and Federation Mission Scoutships for pilot variant) - I know that hangars aren't necessarily reserved for carriers (dreadnought cruiser and command cruiser are good examples here) and that's why I think they should implement one in new T6 Sovereign. We have seen Sovereign class having a rather large shuttlebay at the top of her saucer and other one (probably smaller) at the aft of her secondary hull, and with that in mind, it is obvious that she could carry a good number of auxiliary craft and probably fighters as well. For me that's a good enough reason to give her hangar. I hope that it happens for other (bigger) vessels too in the future once they release that carrier they are currently working on.
Universal console (metreon gas canisters for command variant, cloaking device for intel variant and manual steering column (or some other turn rate/maneuverability enhancement console) for pilot version) - If you can come up with something better, please do so. Those are just my ideas which sound the most promising.
Boff slots (Command variant: commander eng/command, lieutenant commander tac, lieutenant sci/command, lieutenant eng and ensign universal, Intelligence variant: commander eng/intel, lieutenant command tac, lieutenant sci/intel, lieutenant eng and ensign universal and Pilot variant: commander eng/pilot, lieutenant command tac, lieutenant sci/pilot, lieutenant eng and ensign universal) - I'll just repeat myself and say that if you can come up with better boff settings feel free to do so. These seem most probable for me.
Not everything needs to be made because it looks cool, but when the man who designed the ship even goes so far as to give you what the ship looks like when separated... yea... it should be done, because its way cool:
IIRC the Constitution, Excelsior, Ambassador and even the Cheyenne were designed to have the saucer separation feature. That doesn't mean we need the feature on every damn ship that can utilize it. We've seen it happen with the Galaxy on screen, and thus that's made it into the game. Until we see a Sovereign (or other ship) do the same on our tv screens, and with a justification for that capability, I would rather not see the feature thrown onto every ship that's going for it.
At the moment, it's a unique feature to the Galaxy. Lets keep it that way.
Yes, I know they were also designed to have saucer separation, however since Sovereign class came after Galaxy and only Galaxy had that feature, it would be only natural for Sovereign to have one to as Galaxy's successor. It is logical. But as I said, it was merely an idea which I can live without.
Yes that would be nice, and will probably make it into game as remodel for current assault cruiser. As for the name, I would still prefer Supremacy class, although Ascendant isn't bad either. However, it is very possible that neither of those names would be taken for T6 variant. Another name I could think of is Saratoga class.
FED ENG:FA Sirius Verax (USS Leviathan) , FED TAC (Delta): FA Adria Tyllex (USS Thunderblade) , ROM TAC:ADM Kill'ina (IRW Imperix Thrai) , KLING ENG (Delta):LT. GEN Ghol'Vaq Martok (IKS Qeh'Ral II) - 44th Fleet member SUPPORTING PLAYABLE CARDASSIAN AND DOMINION FACTIONS!
Those stats are... way out of line. I love the sovereign as much as the nest guy... but wow... no.
I thought it might seem like a long shot at first glance, but the truth is that that's really not the case. I was taking in comparison stats of some other STO vessels similar to Sovereign and her T5 counterpart. Command cruisers for example gave me some ideas and later some of other T6 releases too. So let me justify those stats a bit.
Hull points (46547 at lvl 50, 56000 at lvl 60) - If you take a look at hull points for T6 command cruisers, Arbiter battlecruiser, Exploration and other T6 cruisers, you will notice that numbers are somewhat around the ones I come up with for T6 Sovereign. She should not have less hull points from Andromeda, and definitely not less from those command cruisers. That would be unacceptable for me, as I don't want to see a Sovereign class as underpowered ship when in canon she is one of the most powerful and most advanced vessels in Starfleet.
Shield modifier (1.12 at lvl 50 and 1.13 at lvl 60) - Same thing like with hull points. I took look on other cruisers and came up with numbers in brackets. Anything less than those figures would be unacceptable.
Turn rate (8) - Do I really have to point out that over 100-150 years old Excelsior class has turn rate of 8 (not to mention Constitution with turn rate of 9)? That would indicate Sovereign should have at least turn rate of 7.5, while 8 would be more than realistic. Especially if it comes out as a pilot ship.
Crew (800) - That remains the same like it was on T5 version.
4 fore weapons slots and 4 aft weapon slots (although I would prefer 5/3 setting) - Again, I don't think I should explain this as it will probably stay the same as it was on T5 Sovereign. However, I would prefer 5/3 setting because Sovereign always seemed to me more forward heavy. But that's most probably just a wishful thinking, unfortunately.
4 eng/4 tac/3 sci for pilot variant, 5 eng/3 tac/3 sci for command variant and 3 eng/4 tac/4 sci consoles for intelligence variant - I think that makes the most sense since Sovereign is assault cruiser and that means more combat oriented ship, therefor this setup seem likely enough to me, with having in mind pilot variant as predominant between those 3 options.
Saucer separation ability - I'm aware this probably won't happen, but you have to admit that it is interesting idea. However, I can live without it.
Captain's yacht - Now this is something that we saw on screen and therefore it should be available to us. If Galaxy/Andromeda class can have saucer separation, if Odyssey can have both that and Aquarius escort, I really see no reason why Sovereign shouldn't have her yacht.
Hangar bay with Argo, Type 11 shuttles or Federation Mission Scoutships (Argo for command version, Type 11 for intelligence and Federation Mission Scoutships for pilot variant) - I know that hangars aren't necessarily reserved for carriers (dreadnought cruiser and command cruiser are good examples here) and that's why I think they should implement one in new T6 Sovereign. We have seen Sovereign class having a rather large shuttlebay at the top of her saucer and other one (probably smaller) at the aft of her secondary hull, and with that in mind, it is obvious that she could carry a good number of auxiliary craft and probably fighters as well. For me that's a good enough reason to give her hangar. I hope that it happens for other (bigger) vessels too in the future once they release that carrier they are currently working on.
Universal console (metreon gas canisters for command variant, cloaking device for intel variant and manual steering column (or some other turn rate/maneuverability enhancement console) for pilot version) - If you can come up with something better, please do so. Those are just my ideas which sound the most promising.
Boff slots (Command variant: commander eng/command, lieutenant commander tac, lieutenant sci/command, lieutenant eng and ensign universal, Intelligence variant: commander eng/intel, lieutenant command tac, lieutenant sci/intel, lieutenant eng and ensign universal and Pilot variant: commander eng/pilot, lieutenant command tac, lieutenant sci/pilot, lieutenant eng and ensign universal) - I'll just repeat myself and say that if you can come up with better boff settings feel free to do so. These seem most probable for me.
The ONLY applicable comparison that you should be making is to the Advanced Heavy Cruiser and its T6 version, as it is the closest to the Sovereign that we have. You shouldnt be looking at the Andromeda, Guardian, or any other cruiser or battlecruiser.
First off... youre asking for 3 variants. And that will never happen. So stop. Id like to see seating other than Command, but thats what Cryptic wants to saddle cruisers with (my ideal BOff layout would include Intel, and not Command, but I probably really wouldnt use Intel seating either...)
Your stats completely ignored how T6 upgrades work... Turn rate doesnt change, shield mod doesnt change from the T5 version to the T6 version and hull only goes up by a small amount.
Hull: 40k base, with the fleet versions base being somewhere around 44k.
Shield Mod: 1 with the fleet getting a 1.1 shield mod. Same as the curretn Sovereigns and the T6 Excelsiors.
Turn rate: 7 with the fleet versions remaining the same.
Crew: Doesnt matter. Its a completely useless stat. Could be 1,000,000 and theyd still all be dead within a few seconds.
Weapon slots: 4/4 because thats what normal cruisers get.
Consoles: 4/4/2 Eng/Tac/Sci, with fleet gaining +1 Engineering for 5/4/2 Eng/Tac/Sci.
Saucer Sep: Id like to see it, but it probably wont happen.
Captain's Yacht: Lol no. The Yacht isnt a combat vessel.
Hangar Bay: Lol no. It doesnt need it. Not only that but of the 3 possible 'fighter choices' you mentioned, 1 is a shuttle that carries a dune buggy, and 1 is a ship that the Sovereign would be incapable of launching. The other is a Type 11 Shuttle (which I'd like to see in the game, separately from the Sovereign, but thats another topic)
Uni Console: The Meteron Canisters are already in the game... so why would they also come on any potential T6 sovereign. No. Cloaking Device, lol no. Manual Steering Column, shows promise, but would be just as stupid as it was when it appeared in Insurrection. Im not sure what the console could be.
BOff layout: Commander Engineering, Lt Commander Engineering/Command, Lt Commander Tactical, Lt Universal, Ensign Tactical. Even though I would prefer Intel replace Command, this is probably what we'll get. Additionally the only ships that get Commander hybrid seats are the Intel ships, the Command ships and the Pilot ships, normal T6 ships only get Lt Commander hybrids).
Trait: I'd like to see something referencing the Corbomite Reflector from the Armada series, but thats probably a no go, so I have no clue.
Hold your horses people, we still need some science vessels, not these stupid hybrids with bad boff layouts.
Nah, we dont need science vessels.
But we do need yet another cruiser?
The majority of ships in Trek are cruisers. (Even the science vessels are cruisers). So its not much of a stretch to believe that the majority of ships in this game would also be cruisers.
The Sovereign is really a cross between the Exploration (Galaxy) cruiser and the Arbiter (Avenger) cruiser. All three (at a T6 level) will have a CMD Engineering seat and a Lt.CMD Tactical seat. The T6 Galaxy cruiser has a second Lt.CMD Eng while the T6 Avenger has a Lt.CMD Universal. The T6 Sovereign will likely be getting one of these two different Lt.CMD seating options as a second Lt.CMD Tactical obviously isn't going to happen (and most cruisers have 2x Lt.CMD seats). I'm hoping on the latter (Lt.CMD Universal). That would end up looking like:
Not much of way of other stats will change from the current T5u version. This would set it apart from both the Galaxy and Avenger cruisers while still retaining an "assault" like cruiser layout, but not as tactical as the Avenger and not as tank-like as the Galaxy. The Sovereign class I believe also has the best chance of being a "Pilot" cruiser of all the "Hero" cruiser ships. I don't know exactly which boff seat will get the Pilot specialization, however.
The Sovereign is really a cross between the Exploration (Galaxy) cruiser and the Arbiter (Avenger) cruiser.
Its really not... its almost an exact copy of the Excelsior in game, just with a Universal in place of the Science seat and a Tac Ensign instead of Engineering, slightly more hull and slightly less turn.
stop dreaming like you did with Defiant , Sovereign wont be more than a T5 with one more boff skill , a spec. and a trait ... thats it , no pets not any shiny .
A T6 Sovereign would be an instant buy from me... well... only if it retains the BOff layout of the T5U version... otherwise, yes.
There is a T5U version?
T5 is Rear Admiral Lower half? Or is it vice admiral? I know there is an Odyssey of the same level and I bought that but I did not think it could be upgraded (I am at work and cannot check).
A T6 Sovereign would be an instant buy from me... well... only if it retains the BOff layout of the T5U version... otherwise, yes.
There is a T5U version?
T5 is Rear Admiral Lower half? Or is it vice admiral? I know there is an Odyssey of the same level and I bought that but I did not think it could be upgraded (I am at work and cannot check).
Yes. The T5 Sovereign is the Assault Cruiser Refit. Which you can get a fleet version of, and upgrade either of them to T5U.
A T6 Sovereign would be an instant buy from me... well... only if it retains the BOff layout of the T5U version... otherwise, yes.
There is a T5U version?
T5 is Rear Admiral Lower half? Or is it vice admiral? I know there is an Odyssey of the same level and I bought that but I did not think it could be upgraded (I am at work and cannot check).
Yes. The T5 Sovereign is the Assault Cruiser Refit. Which you can get a fleet version of, and upgrade either of them to T5U.
Why is the Odyssey Star Cruiser not upgradeable too? It seems to be the same tier as the Sovereign refit.
stop dreaming like you did with Defiant , Sovereign wont be more than a T5 with one more boff skill , a spec. and a trait ... thats it , no pets not any shiny .
stop dreaming like you did with Defiant , Sovereign wont be more than a T5 with one more boff skill , a spec, and a trait ... thats it , no pets not any shiny .
It'll get a unique console of some description too - possibly one that adds to a set (with the gas canister from the Regent). But otherwise, you are right on the money.
A T6 Sovereign would be an instant buy from me... well... only if it retains the BOff layout of the T5U version... otherwise, yes.
There is a T5U version?
T5 is Rear Admiral Lower half? Or is it vice admiral? I know there is an Odyssey of the same level and I bought that but I did not think it could be upgraded (I am at work and cannot check).
Yes. The T5 Sovereign is the Assault Cruiser Refit. Which you can get a fleet version of, and upgrade either of them to T5U.
Why is the Odyssey Star Cruiser not upgradeable too? It seems to be the same tier as the Sovereign refit.
The Odyssey is T5 Fleet level, already, in the store. 12 boff powers/10 consoles (12/11 T5U) vs T5U Regent 12/10.
A T6 Sovereign would be 13/10 or 13/11 (fleet)
"Intelligence is finite, stupidity is infinite" -- Umberto Eco
Minor point: The T6 Heavy Escort Carrier has a Pilot hybrid seat, not Command.
My main has been flying a T5 Sovereign since late 2013, upgraded... well, I suppose back around February when I came back to the game after Leonard Nimoy passed away. My guess for a T6 version would have Commander Eng, Lt. Commander Tac, Lt. Commander Eng, Lt. uni, Ensign Tac or uni. Inheriting the 5 Eng, 3 Tac, 2 Sci console layout from the T5U version would probably trigger great gnashing of teeth from some folks, but I wouldn't rule it out. I'd lean towards 4 Eng, 4 Tac, and 2 Sci consoles for a more offense-oriented assault ship.
A cruiser with Pilot abilities would be interesting. I haven't used them enough to say much more.
A console that forms a two-piece set with Metreon Canister seems likely, perhaps some sort of mobility boost to fit the Pilot specialty if that's what the devs go for. I wonder if a three-piece set with the 180 degree quantum torpedo would be pushing it.
A T6 Sovereign would be an instant buy from me... well... only if it retains the BOff layout of the T5U version... otherwise, yes.
There is a T5U version?
T5 is Rear Admiral Lower half? Or is it vice admiral? I know there is an Odyssey of the same level and I bought that but I did not think it could be upgraded (I am at work and cannot check).
Yes. The T5 Sovereign is the Assault Cruiser Refit. Which you can get a fleet version of, and upgrade either of them to T5U.
Why is the Odyssey Star Cruiser not upgradeable too? It seems to be the same tier as the Sovereign refit.
Minor point: The T6 Heavy Escort Carrier has a Pilot hybrid seat, not Command.
My main has been flying a T5 Sovereign since late 2013, upgraded... well, I suppose back around February when I came back to the game after Leonard Nimoy passed away. My guess for a T6 version would have Commander Eng, Lt. Commander Tac, Lt. Commander Eng, Lt. uni, Ensign Tac or uni. Inheriting the 5 Eng, 3 Tac, 2 Sci console layout from the T5U version would probably trigger great gnashing of teeth from some folks, but I wouldn't rule it out. I'd lean towards 4 Eng, 4 Tac, and 2 Sci consoles for a more offense-oriented assault ship.
A cruiser with Pilot abilities would be interesting. I haven't used them enough to say much more.
A console that forms a two-piece set with Metreon Canister seems likely, perhaps some sort of mobility boost to fit the Pilot specialty if that's what the devs go for. I wonder if a three-piece set with the 180 degree quantum torpedo would be pushing it.
5/3/2 Eng/Tac/Sci where the fleet version gets 5/4/2 Eng/Tac/Sci
Those are the most likely stats as far as BOff seating and console layout.
Though there are two interesting things they could do for the BOff layout:
Give it Intel instead of Command, which would be wholly more useful. And interesting since the only straight cruisers that have intel are the Intel cruiser and the Guardian. Pilot could be done, but Im not sure how useful any of the skills would be on an orbiting beam boat that a cruiser is.
And/or instead of making it Lt Commander Engineering, make it Lt Commander Universal and keep the Lt Engineering.
Console slotting couldnt really change much... 4/5/2 would be awesome and interesting, but I think only escorts are allowed to have 5 tac consoles. I guess they could start it at 4/4/2, and then add the Engineering console at fleet level, but that seems silly given that the T6 excelsior starts with its 5 engineering consoles and then gains a tac at fleet.
Cryptic hasn't been changing around the consoles between the T5u and T6 versions of the same ship, which means a T6 Sovereign would definitely have a 3/5/2 (Tac/Eng/Sci) console layout (+1 Tac for the Fleet T6).
The Arbiter received Intel (more DPS focused) and the Excelsior received Command (more tank focused). I think the Sovereign is due to have a Pilot specialization seat when they create the T6 variant. Still holding out for the Lt.CMD Universal too. Those are my wishes for the T6 Sovereign, at least.
Cryptic hasn't been changing around the consoles between the T5u and T6 versions of the same ship, which means a T6 Sovereign would definitely have a 3/5/2 (Tac/Eng/Sci) console layout (+1 Tac for the Fleet T6).
The Arbiter received Intel (more DPS focused) and the Excelsior received Command (more tank focused). I think the Sovereign is due to have a Pilot specialization seat when they create the T6 variant. Still holding out for the Lt.CMD Universal too. Those are my wishes for the T6 Sovereign, at least.
I agree with the consoles, I dont see them changing from what we currently have with the T5U and Fleet T5U versions.
As for the BOffs:
The Arbiter is a Battlecruiser, not a straight cruiser. (Arbiter has 5/3 weapons, 3 devices and only 3 of the 4 cruiser comm arrays), it has no real bearing on the T6 Sovereign.
Out of the 4 straight cruisers 2 have Command (Andromeda, Resolute), and 2 have Intel (Eclipse, Guardian). Theres a 3rd Intel, if you count the Mirror Guardian, but of the regularly available ships, its 2 each. (If you wanted to count the Yamato thered be a 3rd Command too, but thats a Dreadnought Cruiser.)
I really dont see them giving it Pilot. Not only is it less maneuverable than the Resolute (granted only by a degree a second turn rate and 10 inertia) but on a cruiser, none of the Pilot Abilities would actually be helpful on a 4/4 cruiser. Both Intel (the more useful) and Command (the less useful) have uses on a 4/4 cruiser, but Pilot doesnt really have any use.
LtCmdr Universal would be interesting, and I wouldnt argue with it, but like Pilot, I dont see it happening either.
I mean to be honest, Ive fine tuned my build so well in the Fleet T5U Sovereign that I'm having trouble finding a use for the extra Eng ability (or the extra Tac ability if it somehow gets LtCmdr Universal). And the only way I can really make it better is if the hybrid slot is LtCmdr Engineering/Intel... so Id really like to to get that... but even if it got Command instead it wouldnt be the first time Ive had a random ability that didnt get used... the only thing I dont want it to have is Science... that would actually kill it for me... even Pilot wouldnt kill it for me as much as Science would.
To begin, the Mirror Guardian have Command seating instead of Int.
Second, there is a abundance of Command cruisers, I am certainly going to laugh at a "slightly changed" Resolute, we dont need another Resolute, one exists ... no need to create a near identical ship were its only difference would amount to having the Ensign Tactical instead of Engineering.
If specialization was to allow T6 ships to have more diverse layouts, we certainly NOT going to see that by continue to not allowing Pilot specializations on cruisers.
You are correct on the Mirror Guardian, that was my mistake.
But as far as command "cruisers" there are only 2 regularly available. Battle cruisers are not cruisers.
As far as the Resolute being a near identical ship to the Sovereign, that didnt stop them when they made the T5 Sovereign/Excelsior either... they are also near identical. I dont see that changing now. The T5 Sovereign was the more flexible ship, with regards to BOff seating, compared to the T5 Excelsior, and thats the exact same comparison I see us getting now, int he case of the T6 Sovereign compared to the T6 Resolute.
Regarding Specs, this seems to be (just from observed patterns), the general MO regarding which ships get which specs:
Escorts get Pilot
Cruisers (of any variety) get Command
Anything can get Intel in place of the other two.
Theres one exception, that I know of, and thats the Hestia getting Command.
Pilot would be interesting, but useless on any variety of cruiser, except maybe battle cruisers like the arbiter or command BCs which can mount dual cannons.
Both Command and Intel are of much more use on straight cruisers, with Command being the go to for just about every type of cruiser we've gotten so far.
That may be a point to specialization, but giving a pilot spec seat to a large cruiser not meant to be very maneuverable is silly.
They would be better off not creating any cruisers with pilot spec seats until everything else is 'in play', and then they can create a specialized ship class, probably based off of a battlecruiser for a more maneuverable pilot spec cruiser.
A Pilot Science ship is more appropriate than a pilot cruiser.
"Intelligence is finite, stupidity is infinite" -- Umberto Eco
A cruiser is a cruiser, a battlecruiser just means they can equip dual cannons and lack attract fire on comms, its still a Cruiser.
In fact what are the Command Cruisers? Battlecruisers with a hangar bay with a unique mechanic ...
Your argument is a arbitrary restriction on ship classes, that is exactly what T6 specialization was apparently intended to bypass, if you make EVERY cruiser just being Command OR Int you are restricting the number of layouts that can be created, its back to the issues of T5 were eventually all possible layout combinations would be exhausted.
Pilot is different, just by itself would set it apart from a Command specialization seating and that is the whole point of specialization.
Battle cruisers are treated differently. Their ability to mount dual cannons, the lack of Attract fire, the potential limiting of device slots, the different (usually higher) turn rates and inertia ratings, the usually lower than normal cruiser hulls, the different starship mastery package, the potential for a hangar bay. They are not straight cruisers, and its a distinction that exists, presumably, for a reason.
I agree the the limitations Ive described are completely arbitrary. Theyre also observations based on exactly what Cryptic has done with every released T6 ship to date, bar 2 of them (the Hestia and the T6 Chimera). Escorts get pilot, cruisers get command, with the possibility for any ship to get intel instead of the other two. In short Im not expecting them to get all fancy now.
I dont disagree that pilot would be different, but would it have any good use? No. Command and Intel are both infinitely more useful as specs for cruisers, whether they be DPS focused like (mine), or tank focused. So while Pilot would be different, I dont really see many people being happy with it, in fact I dont even really see most people being happy with Command either. I personally would like Intel, but Im not expecting anything other than Command. That right now is the status quo, and Im not expecting any changes.
and if thats what we get, I'll be perfectly content to buy the ship. If it gets Pilot. Great, Im sure someone will find an interesting use for it. If it gets Intel, great, I'll literally throw money at my screen to get it. But I wouldnt expect anything other than Command. I wouldnt expect a Hangar Bay, I wouldnt expect saucer sep, or another pet craft option. It'll come with a trait of some variety, and a console of dubious use and it'll have the same console layout as the current T5U one does now.
If it's another watered down command cruiser, I'll have no reason to get a T6 Sov.
Prepare to be disappointed then. Because it has been said before and will be said again:
T6 refits of T5 ships, with Hybrid BOFF seats, will NOT be as good as the full Command/Intel/Pilot ships.
Well that's not fair. If they want to keep up that policy than they should let us design our very own ships, because to me, most of their original designs are just plain bad. If they are trying to give their own designs all the best features while disregarding canon ships, I think I'm going to stop playing this game and return to good old Trek games like Bridge Commander, Starfleet Command 3, Legacy and others. At least in those game you couldn't have been destroyed by some TRIBBLE Bird of Prey while commanding a Sovereign class starship...correction...Sovereign class battleship!
Damn, this game could have been much more than it is, but noooooo, they had to try to please everyone so that now there's really not much of a difference which ship you are flying. There's nothing impressive if you fly JHDC for example, because a players in Defiants and Bird of Preys can own you if they have better equipment (which should never really happen in the first place since there should be some restrictions in mounting certain weapons on certain ships).
I'm sorry if I sound a little disrespectful, but some things like those are just pissing me off. And I still wonder why they haven't followed the recipe of those good old games I mentioned when there was clearly nothing wrong about it at all.
Back on T6 Sovereign, I'll still get it (even if it happens to have command seating), but I won't be as nearly happy as I would be with a stats I came up with in my previous post(s). I'm not asking for Sovereign to be the most powerful ship in the game, but I'm just asking for a little more focus on Star Trek canon. Sovereign captain's yacht is canon, Sovereign's two big shuttlebays along with type 11 shuttlecrafts and Argo shuttles is also canon and hence why I want the hangar bay (it's not that I'm asking for 2 of them). And also, that Federation mission scoutship can probably fit in Sovereign's shuttlebay(s) and was also seen in Insurrection as her probable auxiliary craft. A slightly higher turn rate (for just 1 point) shouldn't be that much of a problem also. And other things I listed are pretty much in line with T5(U) Sovereign. I've already seen STO making an exceptions on some of the ships, and therefore I really see no reason why one of those ships couldn't be T6 Sovereign.
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At the moment, it's a unique feature to the Galaxy. Lets keep it that way.
"No matter where you go, there you are."
"I found a bug in Beta, Cryptic squished it. STO Founder and Proud LTS member."
I always knew T6 Sov would come, but my question is when exactly? I hope at least until the end of this year. Anyway, I'm glad she is coming.
Yeah, I'm also hoping they make her a pilot ship, as there is still no pilot cruiser out there, and Sovereign could definitely fit that role, because she is sleek and maneuverable enough to be one. Besides there is no point in reserving entire pilot specialization for escorts only and especially because there are command and intelligence escorts in game already (Phantom as Intel escort, Alita/Akira and Hestia/Prometheus as command escorts).
If they don't make her a pilot cruiser, I'm hoping they will go for Intel option as there are only 2 more cruisers which fit that role compared to many other command cruisers. There are enough of command ships out there already, and not too many pilot and intelligence ones.
Btw that manual steering column is not a bad idea.
In Federation it seems that explorer is just an euphemism for any kind of vessel, even when it comes to ones obviously orientated towards combat role. Only in later shows they started to correct that with giving Defiant designation as escort (which is yet another euphemism, but it is still a better and more accurate term than giving ships like Sovereign class a designation of explorer). However, I think that in movies was never stated which type of ship Sovereign is, therefore I don't think why she couldn't be assault cruiser or even battlecruiser. In some other Trek games she was even called a battleship (Armada 1/2, Legacy, Starfleet Command 3...). Besides that, given her combat capabilities Sovereign class is no (ordinary) explorer (and neither the Galaxy was really that given the fact that she was Starfleet's most powerful vessel at a given time), yet she would rather fit a role of battlecruiser at least, if not a battleship. But we all know how Federation must hide such things because of its peaceful agenda and even Starfleet's most heavily armed vessel couldn't be called outright battleships, battlecruisers, destroyers and such. For me personally Sovereign class is no less than a heavy cruiser.
I thought it might seem like a long shot at first glance, but the truth is that that's really not the case. I was taking in comparison stats of some other STO vessels similar to Sovereign and her T5 counterpart. Command cruisers for example gave me some ideas and later some of other T6 releases too. So let me justify those stats a bit.
Hull points (46547 at lvl 50, 56000 at lvl 60) - If you take a look at hull points for T6 command cruisers, Arbiter battlecruiser, Exploration and other T6 cruisers, you will notice that numbers are somewhat around the ones I come up with for T6 Sovereign. She should not have less hull points from Andromeda, and definitely not less from those command cruisers. That would be unacceptable for me, as I don't want to see a Sovereign class as underpowered ship when in canon she is one of the most powerful and most advanced vessels in Starfleet.
Shield modifier (1.12 at lvl 50 and 1.13 at lvl 60) - Same thing like with hull points. I took look on other cruisers and came up with numbers in brackets. Anything less than those figures would be unacceptable.
Turn rate (8) - Do I really have to point out that over 100-150 years old Excelsior class has turn rate of 8 (not to mention Constitution with turn rate of 9)? That would indicate Sovereign should have at least turn rate of 7.5, while 8 would be more than realistic. Especially if it comes out as a pilot ship.
Crew (800) - That remains the same like it was on T5 version.
4 fore weapons slots and 4 aft weapon slots (although I would prefer 5/3 setting) - Again, I don't think I should explain this as it will probably stay the same as it was on T5 Sovereign. However, I would prefer 5/3 setting because Sovereign always seemed to me more forward heavy. But that's most probably just a wishful thinking, unfortunately.
4 eng/4 tac/3 sci for pilot variant, 5 eng/3 tac/3 sci for command variant and 3 eng/4 tac/4 sci consoles for intelligence variant - I think that makes the most sense since Sovereign is assault cruiser and that means more combat oriented ship, therefor this setup seem likely enough to me, with having in mind pilot variant as predominant between those 3 options.
Saucer separation ability - I'm aware this probably won't happen, but you have to admit that it is interesting idea. However, I can live without it.
Captain's yacht - Now this is something that we saw on screen and therefore it should be available to us. If Galaxy/Andromeda class can have saucer separation, if Odyssey can have both that and Aquarius escort, I really see no reason why Sovereign shouldn't have her yacht.
Hangar bay with Argo, Type 11 shuttles or Federation Mission Scoutships (Argo for command version, Type 11 for intelligence and Federation Mission Scoutships for pilot variant) - I know that hangars aren't necessarily reserved for carriers (dreadnought cruiser and command cruiser are good examples here) and that's why I think they should implement one in new T6 Sovereign. We have seen Sovereign class having a rather large shuttlebay at the top of her saucer and other one (probably smaller) at the aft of her secondary hull, and with that in mind, it is obvious that she could carry a good number of auxiliary craft and probably fighters as well. For me that's a good enough reason to give her hangar. I hope that it happens for other (bigger) vessels too in the future once they release that carrier they are currently working on.
Universal console (metreon gas canisters for command variant, cloaking device for intel variant and manual steering column (or some other turn rate/maneuverability enhancement console) for pilot version) - If you can come up with something better, please do so. Those are just my ideas which sound the most promising.
Boff slots (Command variant: commander eng/command, lieutenant commander tac, lieutenant sci/command, lieutenant eng and ensign universal, Intelligence variant: commander eng/intel, lieutenant command tac, lieutenant sci/intel, lieutenant eng and ensign universal and Pilot variant: commander eng/pilot, lieutenant command tac, lieutenant sci/pilot, lieutenant eng and ensign universal) - I'll just repeat myself and say that if you can come up with better boff settings feel free to do so. These seem most probable for me.
Exactly my point! Btw great picture
Yes, I know they were also designed to have saucer separation, however since Sovereign class came after Galaxy and only Galaxy had that feature, it would be only natural for Sovereign to have one to as Galaxy's successor. It is logical. But as I said, it was merely an idea which I can live without.
Yes that would be nice, and will probably make it into game as remodel for current assault cruiser. As for the name, I would still prefer Supremacy class, although Ascendant isn't bad either. However, it is very possible that neither of those names would be taken for T6 variant. Another name I could think of is Saratoga class.
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The ONLY applicable comparison that you should be making is to the Advanced Heavy Cruiser and its T6 version, as it is the closest to the Sovereign that we have. You shouldnt be looking at the Andromeda, Guardian, or any other cruiser or battlecruiser.
First off... youre asking for 3 variants. And that will never happen. So stop. Id like to see seating other than Command, but thats what Cryptic wants to saddle cruisers with (my ideal BOff layout would include Intel, and not Command, but I probably really wouldnt use Intel seating either...)
Your stats completely ignored how T6 upgrades work... Turn rate doesnt change, shield mod doesnt change from the T5 version to the T6 version and hull only goes up by a small amount.
Hull: 40k base, with the fleet versions base being somewhere around 44k.
Shield Mod: 1 with the fleet getting a 1.1 shield mod. Same as the curretn Sovereigns and the T6 Excelsiors.
Turn rate: 7 with the fleet versions remaining the same.
Crew: Doesnt matter. Its a completely useless stat. Could be 1,000,000 and theyd still all be dead within a few seconds.
Weapon slots: 4/4 because thats what normal cruisers get.
Consoles: 4/4/2 Eng/Tac/Sci, with fleet gaining +1 Engineering for 5/4/2 Eng/Tac/Sci.
Saucer Sep: Id like to see it, but it probably wont happen.
Captain's Yacht: Lol no. The Yacht isnt a combat vessel.
Hangar Bay: Lol no. It doesnt need it. Not only that but of the 3 possible 'fighter choices' you mentioned, 1 is a shuttle that carries a dune buggy, and 1 is a ship that the Sovereign would be incapable of launching. The other is a Type 11 Shuttle (which I'd like to see in the game, separately from the Sovereign, but thats another topic)
Uni Console: The Meteron Canisters are already in the game... so why would they also come on any potential T6 sovereign. No. Cloaking Device, lol no. Manual Steering Column, shows promise, but would be just as stupid as it was when it appeared in Insurrection. Im not sure what the console could be.
BOff layout: Commander Engineering, Lt Commander Engineering/Command, Lt Commander Tactical, Lt Universal, Ensign Tactical. Even though I would prefer Intel replace Command, this is probably what we'll get. Additionally the only ships that get Commander hybrid seats are the Intel ships, the Command ships and the Pilot ships, normal T6 ships only get Lt Commander hybrids).
Trait: I'd like to see something referencing the Corbomite Reflector from the Armada series, but thats probably a no go, so I have no clue.
Nah, we dont need science vessels.
The majority of ships in Trek are cruisers. (Even the science vessels are cruisers). So its not much of a stretch to believe that the majority of ships in this game would also be cruisers.
Lt.CMD Tactical/Pilot
Ens. Tactical
CMD Engineering
Lt. Engineering
Lt.CMD Universal (*/Pilot)
Not much of way of other stats will change from the current T5u version. This would set it apart from both the Galaxy and Avenger cruisers while still retaining an "assault" like cruiser layout, but not as tactical as the Avenger and not as tank-like as the Galaxy. The Sovereign class I believe also has the best chance of being a "Pilot" cruiser of all the "Hero" cruiser ships. I don't know exactly which boff seat will get the Pilot specialization, however.
Its really not... its almost an exact copy of the Excelsior in game, just with a Universal in place of the Science seat and a Tac Ensign instead of Engineering, slightly more hull and slightly less turn.
There is a T5U version?
T5 is Rear Admiral Lower half? Or is it vice admiral? I know there is an Odyssey of the same level and I bought that but I did not think it could be upgraded (I am at work and cannot check).
Yes. The T5 Sovereign is the Assault Cruiser Refit. Which you can get a fleet version of, and upgrade either of them to T5U.
Why is the Odyssey Star Cruiser not upgradeable too? It seems to be the same tier as the Sovereign refit.
But were asking for the T6 Vesta with aux beams first right?
Ahhh, voices of reason. Finally.
The Odyssey is T5 Fleet level, already, in the store. 12 boff powers/10 consoles (12/11 T5U) vs T5U Regent 12/10.
A T6 Sovereign would be 13/10 or 13/11 (fleet)
My main has been flying a T5 Sovereign since late 2013, upgraded... well, I suppose back around February when I came back to the game after Leonard Nimoy passed away. My guess for a T6 version would have Commander Eng, Lt. Commander Tac, Lt. Commander Eng, Lt. uni, Ensign Tac or uni. Inheriting the 5 Eng, 3 Tac, 2 Sci console layout from the T5U version would probably trigger great gnashing of teeth from some folks, but I wouldn't rule it out. I'd lean towards 4 Eng, 4 Tac, and 2 Sci consoles for a more offense-oriented assault ship.
A cruiser with Pilot abilities would be interesting. I haven't used them enough to say much more.
A console that forms a two-piece set with Metreon Canister seems likely, perhaps some sort of mobility boost to fit the Pilot specialty if that's what the devs go for. I wonder if a three-piece set with the 180 degree quantum torpedo would be pushing it.
Buy one of the C-Store Odysseys...
Commander Engineering
Lt Commander Engineering/Command
Lt Commander Tactical
Lt Universal
Ensign Tactical
5/3/2 Eng/Tac/Sci where the fleet version gets 5/4/2 Eng/Tac/Sci
Those are the most likely stats as far as BOff seating and console layout.
Though there are two interesting things they could do for the BOff layout:
Give it Intel instead of Command, which would be wholly more useful. And interesting since the only straight cruisers that have intel are the Intel cruiser and the Guardian. Pilot could be done, but Im not sure how useful any of the skills would be on an orbiting beam boat that a cruiser is.
And/or instead of making it Lt Commander Engineering, make it Lt Commander Universal and keep the Lt Engineering.
Console slotting couldnt really change much... 4/5/2 would be awesome and interesting, but I think only escorts are allowed to have 5 tac consoles. I guess they could start it at 4/4/2, and then add the Engineering console at fleet level, but that seems silly given that the T6 excelsior starts with its 5 engineering consoles and then gains a tac at fleet.
The Arbiter received Intel (more DPS focused) and the Excelsior received Command (more tank focused). I think the Sovereign is due to have a Pilot specialization seat when they create the T6 variant. Still holding out for the Lt.CMD Universal too. Those are my wishes for the T6 Sovereign, at least.
I agree with the consoles, I dont see them changing from what we currently have with the T5U and Fleet T5U versions.
As for the BOffs:
The Arbiter is a Battlecruiser, not a straight cruiser. (Arbiter has 5/3 weapons, 3 devices and only 3 of the 4 cruiser comm arrays), it has no real bearing on the T6 Sovereign.
Out of the 4 straight cruisers 2 have Command (Andromeda, Resolute), and 2 have Intel (Eclipse, Guardian). Theres a 3rd Intel, if you count the Mirror Guardian, but of the regularly available ships, its 2 each. (If you wanted to count the Yamato thered be a 3rd Command too, but thats a Dreadnought Cruiser.)
I really dont see them giving it Pilot. Not only is it less maneuverable than the Resolute (granted only by a degree a second turn rate and 10 inertia) but on a cruiser, none of the Pilot Abilities would actually be helpful on a 4/4 cruiser. Both Intel (the more useful) and Command (the less useful) have uses on a 4/4 cruiser, but Pilot doesnt really have any use.
LtCmdr Universal would be interesting, and I wouldnt argue with it, but like Pilot, I dont see it happening either.
I mean to be honest, Ive fine tuned my build so well in the Fleet T5U Sovereign that I'm having trouble finding a use for the extra Eng ability (or the extra Tac ability if it somehow gets LtCmdr Universal). And the only way I can really make it better is if the hybrid slot is LtCmdr Engineering/Intel... so Id really like to to get that... but even if it got Command instead it wouldnt be the first time Ive had a random ability that didnt get used... the only thing I dont want it to have is Science... that would actually kill it for me... even Pilot wouldnt kill it for me as much as Science would.
You are correct on the Mirror Guardian, that was my mistake.
But as far as command "cruisers" there are only 2 regularly available. Battle cruisers are not cruisers.
As far as the Resolute being a near identical ship to the Sovereign, that didnt stop them when they made the T5 Sovereign/Excelsior either... they are also near identical. I dont see that changing now. The T5 Sovereign was the more flexible ship, with regards to BOff seating, compared to the T5 Excelsior, and thats the exact same comparison I see us getting now, int he case of the T6 Sovereign compared to the T6 Resolute.
Regarding Specs, this seems to be (just from observed patterns), the general MO regarding which ships get which specs:
Escorts get Pilot
Cruisers (of any variety) get Command
Anything can get Intel in place of the other two.
Theres one exception, that I know of, and thats the Hestia getting Command.
Pilot would be interesting, but useless on any variety of cruiser, except maybe battle cruisers like the arbiter or command BCs which can mount dual cannons.
Both Command and Intel are of much more use on straight cruisers, with Command being the go to for just about every type of cruiser we've gotten so far.
They would be better off not creating any cruisers with pilot spec seats until everything else is 'in play', and then they can create a specialized ship class, probably based off of a battlecruiser for a more maneuverable pilot spec cruiser.
A Pilot Science ship is more appropriate than a pilot cruiser.
Battle cruisers are treated differently. Their ability to mount dual cannons, the lack of Attract fire, the potential limiting of device slots, the different (usually higher) turn rates and inertia ratings, the usually lower than normal cruiser hulls, the different starship mastery package, the potential for a hangar bay. They are not straight cruisers, and its a distinction that exists, presumably, for a reason.
I agree the the limitations Ive described are completely arbitrary. Theyre also observations based on exactly what Cryptic has done with every released T6 ship to date, bar 2 of them (the Hestia and the T6 Chimera). Escorts get pilot, cruisers get command, with the possibility for any ship to get intel instead of the other two. In short Im not expecting them to get all fancy now.
I dont disagree that pilot would be different, but would it have any good use? No. Command and Intel are both infinitely more useful as specs for cruisers, whether they be DPS focused like (mine), or tank focused. So while Pilot would be different, I dont really see many people being happy with it, in fact I dont even really see most people being happy with Command either. I personally would like Intel, but Im not expecting anything other than Command. That right now is the status quo, and Im not expecting any changes.
Im expecting:
Commander Engineering
Lt Commander Engineering/Command
Lt Commander Tactical
Lt Universal
Ensign Tactical
and if thats what we get, I'll be perfectly content to buy the ship. If it gets Pilot. Great, Im sure someone will find an interesting use for it. If it gets Intel, great, I'll literally throw money at my screen to get it. But I wouldnt expect anything other than Command. I wouldnt expect a Hangar Bay, I wouldnt expect saucer sep, or another pet craft option. It'll come with a trait of some variety, and a console of dubious use and it'll have the same console layout as the current T5U one does now.
No offense, but... that matters how?
Well that's not fair. If they want to keep up that policy than they should let us design our very own ships, because to me, most of their original designs are just plain bad. If they are trying to give their own designs all the best features while disregarding canon ships, I think I'm going to stop playing this game and return to good old Trek games like Bridge Commander, Starfleet Command 3, Legacy and others. At least in those game you couldn't have been destroyed by some TRIBBLE Bird of Prey while commanding a Sovereign class starship...correction...Sovereign class battleship!
Damn, this game could have been much more than it is, but noooooo, they had to try to please everyone so that now there's really not much of a difference which ship you are flying. There's nothing impressive if you fly JHDC for example, because a players in Defiants and Bird of Preys can own you if they have better equipment (which should never really happen in the first place since there should be some restrictions in mounting certain weapons on certain ships).
I'm sorry if I sound a little disrespectful, but some things like those are just pissing me off. And I still wonder why they haven't followed the recipe of those good old games I mentioned when there was clearly nothing wrong about it at all.
Back on T6 Sovereign, I'll still get it (even if it happens to have command seating), but I won't be as nearly happy as I would be with a stats I came up with in my previous post(s). I'm not asking for Sovereign to be the most powerful ship in the game, but I'm just asking for a little more focus on Star Trek canon. Sovereign captain's yacht is canon, Sovereign's two big shuttlebays along with type 11 shuttlecrafts and Argo shuttles is also canon and hence why I want the hangar bay (it's not that I'm asking for 2 of them). And also, that Federation mission scoutship can probably fit in Sovereign's shuttlebay(s) and was also seen in Insurrection as her probable auxiliary craft. A slightly higher turn rate (for just 1 point) shouldn't be that much of a problem also. And other things I listed are pretty much in line with T5(U) Sovereign. I've already seen STO making an exceptions on some of the ships, and therefore I really see no reason why one of those ships couldn't be T6 Sovereign.
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