So now we enter the war

saqwana

it seems my suspicions about that first mission and it's ties to to enterprise and next gen were right, we seem to be flying head long into the temporal cold war.

flash525

Good. I've been awaiting this for some time now.

kontarnus

"I am a traveller of both time and space, to be where I have been"

It was pretty obvious, really.
Prime story real estate; the unresolved temporal cold war storyline from TNG and Enterprise. It ties in nicely with Yesterday's Enterprise and the Tholian dabbling with time and the mirror universe... need I say more?

I've always wondered, from a story perspective, if the Prime Tholians and Mirror Tholians were allied or possibly one unified civilization. It would make for an interesting storyline.

rahmkota19

kontarnus wrote: »

"I am a traveller of both time and space, to be where I have been"

It was pretty obvious, really.
Prime story real estate; the unresolved temporal cold war storyline from TNG and Enterprise. It ties in nicely with Yesterday's Enterprise and the Tholian dabbling with time and the mirror universe... need I say more?

I've always wondered, from a story perspective, if the Prime Tholians and Mirror Tholians were allied or possibly one unified civilization. It would make for an interesting storyline.

They are an unified race. The regions they live have natrually weaker barriers between the universes. Considering the Tholians now inhabit two universes, they view both universes as one. Hence why they absolutely hate anything else: Federation has the Terran Empire as the counterpart, which the THolians view as one and the same.

kontarnus

Do they really hate everything else? I seem to recall someone, maybe Capt Sisko in a ds9 episode, maybe someone else in another series, say something about a gift from the Tholian ambassador.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

kontarnus

Hmmm... The Tholians are maybe too scifi for Trek! It could lead to some distinctly un-trekky scifi stories if not handled right.

flash525

kontarnus wrote: »

Do they really hate everything else? I seem to recall someone, maybe Capt Sisko in a ds9 episode, maybe someone else in another series, say something about a gift from the Tholian ambassador.

It was DS9. The Tholian Ambassador to Earth owed Sicko a favour (and thus presented him with some Tholian Silk for Cassidy). There was also a Tholian Ambassador killed by the Dominion (some conference), and a third Tholian Ambassador was on Romulus during the time of Nemesis.

Obviously they don't (or didn't) hate us that much.

szim

So this "new dawn" and peaceful era of exploration after the devastating Iconian war lasted for about 5 minutes into the first episode. And now there's yet another big war coming up. This time a temporal one. Why exactly was this season called "New Dawn" again? I've quite forgotten.

anazonda

Meh... it's already over.

flash525

szim wrote: »

So this "new dawn" and peaceful era of exploration after the devastating Iconian war lasted for about 5 minutes into the first episode. And now there's yet another big war coming up. This time a temporal one. Why exactly was this season called "New Dawn" again? I've quite forgotten.

Is there a war though? Last I remember, it was named the Temporal Cold War. Cold War indicating that it isn't an all out war, more like the odd dogfight.

My question (and one I hope Cryptic concludes better than they did the Iconians), but how do you stop people from the future trying to change the past, when if the past was changed you would be none-the-wiser (the episode with Tasha for example).

tigeraries

flash525 wrote: »

Obviously they don't (or didn't) hate us that much.

You can hate someone but still pays to have Ambassadors to those areas in stead of using 3rd party intermediaries...

kontarnus

Is it? The temporal story can easily be weaved into exploration. We'll probably see the Lukari again. We'll probably be going to never before used star systems in the upcoming feature episodes and have to do scanning for x as part of the storyline (a little throwback to the old cookie cutter exploration). Probably beaming down to planets for sample collection or artifact recovery, etc. All weaved into these new feature episodes.

szim

flash525 wrote: »

szim wrote: »

So this "new dawn" and peaceful era of exploration after the devastating Iconian war lasted for about 5 minutes into the first episode. And now there's yet another big war coming up. This time a temporal one. Why exactly was this season called "New Dawn" again? I've quite forgotten.

Is there a war though? Last I remember, it was named the Temporal Cold War. Cold War indicating that it isn't an all out war, more like the odd dogfight.

My question (and one I hope Cryptic concludes better than they did the Iconians), but how do you stop people from the future trying to change the past, when if the past was changed you would be none-the-wiser (the episode with Tasha for example).

If I remember correctly then this Temporal Cold War was only cold back in the future where those agents came from. In the past this war was very much a hot one. Or what would you call it if Sowjets from the 20th century went back to a 19th century US to release a deadly virus that would kill every last American?

In most of Star Trek episodes dealing with time travel, the story didn't make much sense, as does time travel itself. Because if you allow something or someone to freely travel back in time, then there's literally nothing he cannot do. You traveled back in time and made a mistake? Just travel further back in time to warn yourself from making that mistake. And if an agent showed up to prevent you from suceeding, then again, travel further back in time to warn yourself about the temporal agent.

tousseau

Ahhh... the slippery slope of temporal mechanics.

gradii

Yawn... more wars. wake me up when exploration hits.

captz1pp

kontarnus wrote: »

"I am a traveller of both time and space, to be where I have been"

It was pretty obvious, really.
Prime story real estate; the unresolved temporal cold war storyline from TNG and Enterprise. It ties in nicely with Yesterday's Enterprise and the Tholian dabbling with time and the mirror universe... need I say more?

I've always wondered, from a story perspective, if the Prime Tholians and Mirror Tholians were allied or possibly one unified civilization. It would make for an interesting storyline.

That is like a post i made about them being from "outside", and that the Crystalline shells we see are just 3-dimensional "shadows".

semalda226

ya i literally just mentioned that little issue of infinite loop paradoxes. Time Travel generally leaves a lot of "what ifs" and "how does that work?" in its wake.

zellkarrath

So regarding the latest mission:

What was the point behind needing the Tox Uthat to devastate the Na'khul? Like, as devastating as it is, it isn't the end all of super weapons or anything. They could have just tried to steal the research behind the Genesis device, or just blasted their sun with a Trilithium Warhead. Why go out of their way to steal a weapon from the future to begin with when there is clearly data kicking around on doomsday devices already.

gradii

zellkarrath wrote: »

So regarding the latest mission:

What was the point behind needing the Tox Uthat to devastate the Na'khul? Like, as devastating as it is, it isn't the end all of super weapons or anything. They could have just tried to steal the research behind the Genesis device, or just blasted their sun with a Trilithium Warhead. Why go out of their way to steal a weapon from the future to begin with when there is clearly data kicking around on doomsday devices already.

Same reason we totally forgot we could use normal time travel to try and defeat the iconians, never needed the krenim. Bad writing.

angrytarg

kontarnus wrote: »

Do they really hate everything else? I seem to recall someone, maybe Capt Sisko in a ds9 episode, maybe someone else in another series, say something about a gift from the Tholian ambassador.

Tholians have been pictured as being xenophobic which comes a long way with being so vastly different from most other space faring civilizations we saw, but at the same time have been shown or mentioned as being rational, preferring communication over confrontation even when foreign powers "invade" their space and hold diplomatic relations. There has been conflict but that was resolved.

It doesn't make much sense to have Tholians be evil just for the heck of it, they're not really villian material. Why should a xenophobic culture strife for galactic conquest? They're happy keeping to themselves and doing their Tholian wiggling. It is from my point of view most probably that they have some kind of agenda,maybe even benefitial one like sealing some great evil or ending all those stupid temporal wars but they don't tell anyone and keep to themselves and cosnider the other species more of a threat or hindrance than potential allies for their cause. So I would expect some bigger threat that we ultimately face.

But a lot of people suggested they were already trying to counter the Iconian letdown war but they were pretty much completely ignored and forgotten in that story.

gradii wrote: »

Same reason we totally forgot we could use normal time travel to try and defeat the iconians, never needed the krenim. Bad writing.

It's a general problem if you insist to use timetravel nonsense in your stories. There is no plausible reason why time travel could not solve any problem. I just watched the new Terminator movie (which was surprisingly good) and they travel in time to a date set exactly one day before Skynet goes online. Why ffs? Make it a week or month, there's enough to sabotage/destroy already and you don't have to save the world 14 seconds before judgment day, make it 14 days or weeks.

Star Trek time travel is especially dumb. While something like Terminator establishes some rules, like only this device can time travel and you need this and that to do it, Star Trek time travel is so easily available as to fly a rustbucket of a B'Rel around a star or use one of the other dozen ways to do it established in canon which of course never comes up to solve problems because it would be boring. But time travel plots when time travel is a voluntary and controled thing you can do never make sense.​​

mrspidey2

kontarnus wrote: »

Do they really hate everything else? I seem to recall someone, maybe Capt Sisko in a ds9 episode, maybe someone else in another series, say something about a gift from the Tholian ambassador.

They probably didn't hate the Feds that much at the time because the Terran Empire had been gone for a century.

ashrod63

flash525 wrote: »

szim wrote: »

So this "new dawn" and peaceful era of exploration after the devastating Iconian war lasted for about 5 minutes into the first episode. And now there's yet another big war coming up. This time a temporal one. Why exactly was this season called "New Dawn" again? I've quite forgotten.

Is there a war though? Last I remember, it was named the Temporal Cold War. Cold War indicating that it isn't an all out war, more like the odd dogfight.

My question (and one I hope Cryptic concludes better than they did the Iconians), but how do you stop people from the future trying to change the past, when if the past was changed you would be none-the-wiser (the episode with Tasha for example).

There's some comments in the show about "scanning timelines" or something like, which can presumably be taken as meaning that by the [insert century here] the Federation are able to tell if somebody from another version of history is TRIBBLE with them. Sometimes this leads to some rather horrible complications though. You could try to sort history in one way and have another you from another timeline pop up and try to do something else.

saurializard

About the Tholians being evil, I do believe (at least, I hope Cryptic is going this way and not the easy "duh, this species is always eeeeeeevil!") that the ones who attack us are from a warmongering sub-faction who wants the cool stuff of other species while the rest simply prefer to be left alone, kinda like how the True Way doesn't represent the whole Cardassian species.

After all, we do have Tholian Doffs and from their little description/talk, they seem reasonable enough, if a bit strict.

duncanidaho11

saurializard wrote: »

About the Tholians being evil, I do believe (at least, I hope Cryptic is going this way and not the easy "duh, this species is always eeeeeeevil!") that the ones who attack us are from a warmongering sub-faction who wants the cool stuff of other species while the rest simply prefer to be left alone, kinda like how the True Way doesn't represent the whole Cardassian species.

After all, we do have Tholian Doffs and from their little description/talk, they seem reasonable enough, if a bit strict.

The phrase "it's complicated" probably describes the situation nicely. On the one hand we could be engaged in a bloody ground war on Nukara (which seem to be more targeted against the Mirror Universe) and skirmishes to protect a crystaline entity (for some reason) but on the other hand we have doffs and no clear indication in the game's story that the Tholians are raging any kind of broader war.

I like to take these inconsistencies and put them in the context of what's been implied about the Tholians. They're non-humanoids, we have no idea of what their objectives are in the quadrant. It may be inapt to try projecting a human standard of moral decision making and intelligence onto them (with conventional ideas of power, control, and gain). To a Tholian a few battles here and there might represent a totally acceptable standard of interstellar diplomacy [with no long-term significance with respect to faction relationships, it's just what you do] which, while a useful tool in itself [see. the ambassador references], is only one tool among many to pursue their interests [which definitely take priority over those of other species].

I guess you could simplify it as "absolute pragmatism."

jslyn

kontarnus wrote: »

"I am a traveller of both time and space, to be where I have been"

But so many butterflies will make Hiro sad.

gradii

saurializard wrote: »

About the Tholians being evil, I do believe (at least, I hope Cryptic is going this way and not the easy "duh, this species is always eeeeeeevil!") that the ones who attack us are from a warmongering sub-faction who wants the cool stuff of other species while the rest simply prefer to be left alone, kinda like how the True Way doesn't represent the whole Cardassian species.

After all, we do have Tholian Doffs and from their little description/talk, they seem reasonable enough, if a bit strict.

You should see my Tholian crew members (clones?) Kmrene and Kmrene play parises squares with Hurra and Hurra, 2 terrestrial Xindi (clones?)

metaliant

tousseau wrote: »

Ahhh... the slippery slope of temporal mechanics.

temporal mechanics gives me headaches just thinking about it.

mackbolan01

temporal mechanics gives me headaches just thinking about it.​​

jslyn

I loved temporal mechanics in school. It was just that one subject that clicked always made perfect sense to me. I found it enjoyable.

saqwana

i think the reason the na'khul had to be left devestated because they are the ones that gave B'vat's group the data on the future which the klingons did not use, so to keep the story internally consistent that means the na'khul must suffer.