May I ask why you think that? The premise being (as mentioned in the rest of my post) to heighten engagement with the viewers, and give them more a sense of community, through things like competitions (ie get your ship on screen, or your captain name-dropped) or maybe a weekly/fortnightly/quarterly webinar where a member of the cast, and a member of the production crew comes online to chat directly with fans for half an hour or so... As I mentioned, the dynamic between fans/viewers and actors/producers is very different now to what it was say fifteen years ago, and I think that could be ('exploited' is the wrong word) maximised/utilised to build a stronger community, increase the conversion from 'occasional viewer', to 'legitimate fan'...
Because the storyline in STO is dreadful IMO. This is just my own 2 quatloos here, but I'd rather see this new series be original and stand on its own legs without having to heavily rely on what has come before.
Besides, CBS doesn't need STO to promote it's new Trek show.
That's a very fair point, I was just thinking that if STO could be used as a 'gateway' of sorts to increase viewer investment (emotionally) in the series, it might be a way of boosting the conversion from 'viewers to fans' (or just outright getting better viewing figures) than previous sci-fi series' have been able to benefit from
I dont think there is to many options in terms of following the current timeline as in the TNG era. I think there is maybe 3 options we can go down now, the past( which we have done ) far in to the future and they can mak a clean go of the show and we see how the quaderant has progressed OR they move away from the prime universe and create yet another alternate verse away from ht jjveres and away from the prime.
There is the 'Lost Era' between TOS and TNG. The Time between ENT and TOS. Alpha Quadrent between DS9 and Nemesis, after Nemesis. Not to mention there is no reason you couldnt set something in the same period as another, dont forget we had three series set in the same era.
There's still the canon to worry about. If you set a series between ENT and TOS, for instance, you can't have any stories with Ferengi or Cardassians, because first contact hadn't happened yet. (You can try, mind you, but ENT's attempt to shoehorn Ferengi in was pretty cringeworthy.) Nothing involving seeing Romulans, not even a corpse; nothing about Zephram Cochrane, who had already disappeared and wouldn't be found again until TOS; no shenanigans involving Q or Organians or any of that - far too many stories you'd logically want to tell from that era are locked out, due to existing canon from series that occur later.
The only way a series can really work well is to either go the alt-u route (and thus TRIBBLE off JJ-haters once again), or move forward into the future. The other series still left massive swaths of the galaxy unexplored, you know; even if we managed to get back to the Delta Quadrant, as this game has reminded us, VOY only saw a narrow view of a corridor of space in the region, and never even touched on the vastness all around.
I dont think there is to many options in terms of following the current timeline as in the TNG era. I think there is maybe 3 options we can go down now, the past( which we have done ) far in to the future and they can mak a clean go of the show and we see how the quaderant has progressed OR they move away from the prime universe and create yet another alternate verse away from ht jjveres and away from the prime.
There is the 'Lost Era' between TOS and TNG. The Time between ENT and TOS. Alpha Quadrent between DS9 and Nemesis, after Nemesis. Not to mention there is no reason you couldnt set something in the same period as another, dont forget we had three series set in the same era.
There's still the canon to worry about. If you set a series between ENT and TOS, for instance, you can't have any stories with Ferengi or Cardassians, because first contact hadn't happened yet. (You can try, mind you, but ENT's attempt to shoehorn Ferengi in was pretty cringeworthy.) Nothing involving seeing Romulans, not even a corpse; nothing about Zephram Cochrane, who had already disappeared and wouldn't be found again until TOS; no shenanigans involving Q or Organians or any of that - far too many stories you'd logically want to tell from that era are locked out, due to existing canon from series that occur later.
The only way a series can really work well is to either go the alt-u route (and thus TRIBBLE off JJ-haters once again), or move forward into the future. The other series still left massive swaths of the galaxy unexplored, you know; even if we managed to get back to the Delta Quadrant, as this game has reminded us, VOY only saw a narrow view of a corridor of space in the region, and never even touched on the vastness all around.
This is the main reason why I'd rather they set this past Voyager...no canon or previous shows to worry about.
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
There's still the canon to worry about. If you set a series between ENT and TOS, for instance, you can't have any stories with Ferengi or Cardassians, because first contact hadn't happened yet. (You can try, mind you, but ENT's attempt to shoehorn Ferengi in was pretty cringeworthy.) Nothing involving seeing Romulans, not even a corpse; nothing about Zephram Cochrane, who had already disappeared and wouldn't be found again until TOS; no shenanigans involving Q or Organians or any of that - far too many stories you'd logically want to tell from that era are locked out, due to existing canon from series that occur later.
We don't know the date of first contact with the Cardassians other than it was sometime before TOS (ST:09 makes reference to a Cardassian drink).
You can have all the Romulans you want, you simply ignore the line in TOS that says we never saw them in the war. It was silly then and inconceivable now.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
And that wasn't just "a line" in "Balance of Terror" - it was a major plot point. Crew members started looking at Spock differently when they saw what Romulans looked like. (Among other things, it gave Kirk an excuse for that "no room on the bridge for bigotry" speech.) The viewer was encouraged to wonder if Spock was telling the truth - about much of anything. And then the Vulcan peacemonger starts calling for immediate attack against the warbird?!?
Ignore all that, and you haven't just ignored "a silly concept", you've done more damage to the canon than anything since the Xindi carved a canyon across Florida. The howls of outrage will be audible even without an internet connection.
Hell, if you're going to just toss Star Trek's universe-building (haphazard as it has been) whenever the mood strikes you, why not just create an original property?
Indeed, there is a possible case to be made that in the JJverse, contact with the Cardassians was accelerated due to actions taken by Starfleet following the Narada incursion. We know Starfleet did become more aggressive and push its military tech further, so it's possible they also got a greater range that brought them into contact with the Cardassians early compared to the prime timeline.
Regarding knowing what the Romulans look like, I'm assuming Nero is the first one in the JJVerse to have shown his face.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
I dont think there is to many options in terms of following the current timeline as in the TNG era. I think there is maybe 3 options we can go down now, the past( which we have done ) far in to the future and they can mak a clean go of the show and we see how the quaderant has progressed OR they move away from the prime universe and create yet another alternate verse away from ht jjveres and away from the prime.
There is the 'Lost Era' between TOS and TNG. The Time between ENT and TOS. Alpha Quadrent between DS9 and Nemesis, after Nemesis. Not to mention there is no reason you couldnt set something in the same period as another, dont forget we had three series set in the same era.
There's still the canon to worry about. If you set a series between ENT and TOS, for instance, you can't have any stories with Ferengi or Cardassians, because first contact hadn't happened yet. (You can try, mind you, but ENT's attempt to shoehorn Ferengi in was pretty cringeworthy.) Nothing involving seeing Romulans, not even a corpse; nothing about Zephram Cochrane, who had already disappeared and wouldn't be found again until TOS; no shenanigans involving Q or Organians or any of that - far too many stories you'd logically want to tell from that era are locked out, due to existing canon from series that occur later.
The only way a series can really work well is to either go the alt-u route (and thus TRIBBLE off JJ-haters once again), or move forward into the future. The other series still left massive swaths of the galaxy unexplored, you know; even if we managed to get back to the Delta Quadrant, as this game has reminded us, VOY only saw a narrow view of a corridor of space in the region, and never even touched on the vastness all around.
This is the main reason why I'd rather they set this past Voyager...no canon or previous shows to worry about.
Well, there is still all the temporal cold war stuff that Enterprise introduced and gives us a hint at the future. In general, even without Enterprise, it seems time travel becomes almost casually available in the future. I think that's not really good for the franchise, though. Time Travel is too easy.
Hell, if you're going to just toss Star Trek's universe-building (haphazard as it has been) whenever the mood strikes you, why not just create an original property?
Probably because you want to keep too much of the trappings of Star Trek. Warp Drives, Tricorders, Vulcans...
Trying to come up with something that has all that and still seems original and not a knock-off is difficult and probably not worth the effort. Just make it Trek, because that's what you are trying to do.
Personally, I don't mind the idea of reimagining Star Trek, and fixing all the haphazard and inconsistent parts of the lore. But I still want my Captain Kirk, Picard, Sisko and even Janeway (just better written), Klingons, Romulans and what not.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
I have never seen a reason why contact with the Cardassians had to be delayed at all. This isn't a Ferengi situation, they may have always been around and just not mentioned. They weren't even mentioned in TNG until Season 4 in The Wounded, but we know from that very episode that there had been a war before TNG even debuted. There's no reason to think that first contact was made after TOS rather than before, or even by Kirk himself.
Indeed, there is a possible case to be made that in the JJverse, contact with the Cardassians was accelerated due to actions taken by Starfleet following the Narada incursion. We know Starfleet did become more aggressive and push its military tech further, so it's possible they also got a greater range that brought them into contact with the Cardassians early compared to the prime timeline.
Regarding knowing what the Romulans look like, I'm assuming Nero is the first one in the JJVerse to have shown his face.
I don't think Nero was the first one to show his face since everyone seemed to know they were romulans before he showed up above Vulcan
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
I don't think Nero was the first one to show his face since everyone seemed to know they were romulans before he showed up above Vulcan
I think there was something to do with the transmissions... Uhura replaced the communications officer who couldn't distinguish between the Vulcan and Romulan dialects... It would still be in keeping that a Romulan had not been seen, but as pointed out above, the mention of a Cardassian drink suggests first contact had already happened with the Union, and for all we know, it already had, and that Cardassians (like Denobulans) were simply not seen onscreen in Kirk's time... (also what happens when a writer throws in references 'for the lulz' without thinking about the full context...)
I have never seen a reason why contact with the Cardassians had to be delayed at all. This isn't a Ferengi situation, they may have always been around and just not mentioned. They weren't even mentioned in TNG until Season 4 in The Wounded, but we know from that very episode that there had been a war before TNG even debuted. There's no reason to think that first contact was made after TOS rather than before, or even by Kirk himself.
I admittedly don't have strong backing to this theory, but I've always been of the mind that the formal Prime Universe contact with the Cardassians occurred around the turn of the 24th century, or a little after, but that prior to then there may have been rumors or at least descriptions of the Cardassians that Feds might have been aware of without having ever seen them. To me this seems like a reasonable time for contact to have happened and then deteriorated into an ongoing series of border wars as each of them made claims and counterclaims on territory and as colonization by both entities moved in that direction.
Warning: Made-Up Headcanon Ahead!
Now, the other part of my headcanon, which I TOTALLY made up, is that formal contact was delayed despite knowledge of the Cardassians due to the 23rd-century Feds imposing a trade embargo/sanctions on the Cardassians for being a police state. Think of the treatment of certain police states on Earth. The TNG Feds wouldn't have the chutzpah to do something like that, but if Kirk's reaction to the Kohms (yes, I just went there ) and any other number of despotic regimes he encountered is even slightly indicative of the 23rd century mentality, I can see them being less into relativism and more likely to have standards of who they will do business with. By the 24th century, however, the Federation was actually sharing a border with the Cardassians, meaning ignoring them was not going to work and the situation ended up devolving into the Border Wars that we're aware of from O'Brien's past.
So that gets to how I headcanoned the JJverse. When the Narada attacked the Kelvin, we know that Starfleet's development started turning in a more militaristic direction. Not as much overtly, but we know that Section 31 gained sufficient influence to have a drydock and starship on their own. Overall, we're looking at a Federation a bit more willing to do deals with the "devil" if they think they need to do so to protect themselves. The Federation is now facing a double threat: the Klingon Empire, and what they think MAY be a Romulan threat...Nero's statements aside, for all they know, what Nero did WAS in fact state-sponsored.
So now think about the Cardassians. The Cardassians are not on great terms with either of the two Empires, but at that point had not really opened relations with the Federation. In my headcanon, the trade embargo from the Prime Universe never went into effect as the leadership of both governments was thinking about the possibility of an alliance of convenience between the Federation and the Union. Now, the obvious complaint here is that the Union is a second-rate power as we know it from DS9. Correct, but you'll notice that the Federation in the mid-23rd century fits that description as well. As we later find out, the attacks on the Laurentian and Vulcan systems together had a serious impact on the Federation. My personal impression is that the Federation is not as easily able to take those kinds of hits, in comparison to what we see in the TNG era. It is not unreasonable to consider the possibility, if you are in the leadership of the Federation or Cardassian Union, to consider allying with the other power that has bad blood with the same people you already do. It won't be a comfortable alliance for sure, and I would expect the Cardassians to try to manipulate it to their advantage in a long-term game that wouldn't manifest itself overtly right away, to become the dominant member of the alliance and eventually make a move against the Federation.
I would also expect Section 31 and the Obsidian Order to have been in contact with each other (projecting the Order's known contact with the Tal Shiar in the Dominion War era back into the JJ-23rd century). Which gets to one other point in my headcanon: KHAAAAAAAN. Just how did his appearance get changed so drastically when we know he has a healing factor so strong that it could very well resist the surgery? In the Prime Universe, while the Cardassians are behind in shipbuilding tech, they are undisputed masters of the Alpha Quadrant in biotech, as demonstrated by all of the things they pulled off in "Second Skin," and numerous incidents of passing their agents off as humans, Bajorans, and other species that look drastically different from them--agents who were not caught until years after the fact. I think it is possible the Order gave Section 31 at least a little advice in how successfully do the alterations on Khan...a "gift," or more like a means to start S31 down the path of being indebted to the Obsidian Order.
Now, again, NONE of this stuff I marked as headcanon has any formal basis in canon. I consider it plausible but not in any way provable, and Prime-Verse and JJVerse canon both could very easily be revealed to be something else entirely. It's just my personal speculation.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
Indeed, there is a possible case to be made that in the JJverse, contact with the Cardassians was accelerated due to actions taken by Starfleet following the Narada incursion. We know Starfleet did become more aggressive and push its military tech further, so it's possible they also got a greater range that brought them into contact with the Cardassians early compared to the prime timeline.
Regarding knowing what the Romulans look like, I'm assuming Nero is the first one in the JJVerse to have shown his face.
I don't think Nero was the first one to show his face since everyone seemed to know they were romulans before he showed up above Vulcan
Okay, thinking about it, I made a slight mistake. Ayel was actually the first Romulan to show his face in an open transmission in the JJverse, and he did so when attacking the Kelvin. So by the time Vulcan was attacked, everyone would know what Romulans looked like since Ayel let the cat out of the bag.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
Indeed, there is a possible case to be made that in the JJverse, contact with the Cardassians was accelerated due to actions taken by Starfleet following the Narada incursion. We know Starfleet did become more aggressive and push its military tech further, so it's possible they also got a greater range that brought them into contact with the Cardassians early compared to the prime timeline.
Regarding knowing what the Romulans look like, I'm assuming Nero is the first one in the JJVerse to have shown his face.
I don't think Nero was the first one to show his face since everyone seemed to know they were romulans before he showed up above Vulcan
Okay, thinking about it, I made a slight mistake. Ayel was actually the first Romulan to show his face in an open transmission in the JJverse, and he did so when attacking the Kelvin. So by the time Vulcan was attacked, everyone would know what Romulans looked like since Ayel let the cat out of the bag.
Also remember that Kirk read Pike dissertation on the Kelvin incident and mentions that the ship was Romulan. We have that silly scene in the beer tap/ Communications room with Kirk getting numb tongue while trying to say Romulan
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
I have never seen a reason why contact with the Cardassians had to be delayed at all. This isn't a Ferengi situation, they may have always been around and just not mentioned. They weren't even mentioned in TNG until Season 4 in The Wounded, but we know from that very episode that there had been a war before TNG even debuted. There's no reason to think that first contact was made after TOS rather than before, or even by Kirk himself.
I admittedly don't have strong backing to this theory, but I've always been of the mind that the formal Prime Universe contact with the Cardassians occurred around the turn of the 24th century, or a little after, but that prior to then there may have been rumors or at least descriptions of the Cardassians that Feds might have been aware of without having ever seen them. To me this seems like a reasonable time for contact to have happened and then deteriorated into an ongoing series of border wars as each of them made claims and counterclaims on territory and as colonization by both entities moved in that direction.
Warning: Made-Up Headcanon Ahead!
Now, the other part of my headcanon, which I TOTALLY made up, is that formal contact was delayed despite knowledge of the Cardassians due to the 23rd-century Feds imposing a trade embargo/sanctions on the Cardassians for being a police state. Think of the treatment of certain police states on Earth. The TNG Feds wouldn't have the chutzpah to do something like that, but if Kirk's reaction to the Kohms (yes, I just went there ) and any other number of despotic regimes he encountered is even slightly indicative of the 23rd century mentality, I can see them being less into relativism and more likely to have standards of who they will do business with. By the 24th century, however, the Federation was actually sharing a border with the Cardassians, meaning ignoring them was not going to work and the situation ended up devolving into the Border Wars that we're aware of from O'Brien's past.
So that gets to how I headcanoned the JJverse. When the Narada attacked the Kelvin, we know that Starfleet's development started turning in a more militaristic direction. Not as much overtly, but we know that Section 31 gained sufficient influence to have a drydock and starship on their own. Overall, we're looking at a Federation a bit more willing to do deals with the "devil" if they think they need to do so to protect themselves. The Federation is now facing a double threat: the Klingon Empire, and what they think MAY be a Romulan threat...Nero's statements aside, for all they know, what Nero did WAS in fact state-sponsored.
So now think about the Cardassians. The Cardassians are not on great terms with either of the two Empires, but at that point had not really opened relations with the Federation. In my headcanon, the trade embargo from the Prime Universe never went into effect as the leadership of both governments was thinking about the possibility of an alliance of convenience between the Federation and the Union. Now, the obvious complaint here is that the Union is a second-rate power as we know it from DS9. Correct, but you'll notice that the Federation in the mid-23rd century fits that description as well. As we later find out, the attacks on the Laurentian and Vulcan systems together had a serious impact on the Federation. My personal impression is that the Federation is not as easily able to take those kinds of hits, in comparison to what we see in the TNG era. It is not unreasonable to consider the possibility, if you are in the leadership of the Federation or Cardassian Union, to consider allying with the other power that has bad blood with the same people you already do. It won't be a comfortable alliance for sure, and I would expect the Cardassians to try to manipulate it to their advantage in a long-term game that wouldn't manifest itself overtly right away, to become the dominant member of the alliance and eventually make a move against the Federation.
I would also expect Section 31 and the Obsidian Order to have been in contact with each other (projecting the Order's known contact with the Tal Shiar in the Dominion War era back into the JJ-23rd century). Which gets to one other point in my headcanon: KHAAAAAAAN. Just how did his appearance get changed so drastically when we know he has a healing factor so strong that it could very well resist the surgery? In the Prime Universe, while the Cardassians are behind in shipbuilding tech, they are undisputed masters of the Alpha Quadrant in biotech, as demonstrated by all of the things they pulled off in "Second Skin," and numerous incidents of passing their agents off as humans, Bajorans, and other species that look drastically different from them--agents who were not caught until years after the fact. I think it is possible the Order gave Section 31 at least a little advice in how successfully do the alterations on Khan...a "gift," or more like a means to start S31 down the path of being indebted to the Obsidian Order.
Now, again, NONE of this stuff I marked as headcanon has any formal basis in canon. I consider it plausible but not in any way provable, and Prime-Verse and JJVerse canon both could very easily be revealed to be something else entirely. It's just my personal speculation.
Or an easy way to explain how there's a Cardassian drink on Earth is....traders. Some trader that goes out farther than the Federation does trades with the Cardassians and brings back a selection of their drinks.
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
At least the way I rationalize it though, those traders wouldn't have been allowed to do that in the Prime universe because of the hypothetical trade embargo.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
At least the way I rationalize it though, those traders wouldn't have been allowed to do that in the Prime universe because of the hypothetical trade embargo.
Then how was McCoy able to get Romulan ale?
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
At least the way I rationalize it though, those traders wouldn't have been allowed to do that in the Prime universe because of the hypothetical trade embargo.
Then how was McCoy able to get Romulan ale?
Contraband. Not an open sale on the menu of a bar on Earth.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
At least the way I rationalize it though, those traders wouldn't have been allowed to do that in the Prime universe because of the hypothetical trade embargo.
Then how was McCoy able to get Romulan ale?
Contraband. Not an open sale on the menu of a bar on Earth.
true
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Or an easy way to explain how there's a Cardassian drink on Earth is....traders. Some trader that goes out farther than the Federation does trades with the Cardassians and brings back a selection of their drinks.
I'd never thought of it before, but it would seem that, in TOS era, the Feds had been trading indirectly with the Romulans even when they seemingly didn't know what they looked like.
Back in the day of three networks, there was a show called 'NBC Mystery Movie' which was an anthology series. Each week a different series would air, and if you watched it regularly you'd see three or four different shows a season sharing the same air time.
Assume a Star Trek version in this format, with four different titles running concurrently. In the first week you might see an exploration Trek, the next a station-based one, the next might be a 'war show', and the next week you might have a throwback to pre-TOS show. Each show would have it's own crew, missions, and starship/station.
You might even have a show which is made up of shorts, so that vignette type stories would have a place. It might be interesting, for example, to see an episode where the Horta volunteer to have members of their society transplanted from Janus IV to another mining colony. There's a lot of potential for a half-hour episode in that idea, but not enough to base a series on it. You could have literally dozens of shorts from 15 minutes to 1 hour which are one-offs, never to be re-visited unless viewers demand it. Imagine the potential for attracting and showcasing TV stars in such a show!
Some ideas for recurring series set in an anthology format:
Star Fleet Academy: Comedy. Students learn to live, love, and cope with aliens on a college campus.
Star Trek Neutral Zone: Military Drama. It's not enough that we deal with Klingons on a daily basis, but the damned neutral zone species are the worst!
Star Trek 2170: Exploration Drama. The crew of the USS Victory, (NCC 100) support the growing Federation, led by Federation President Archer. (Bakula might get a cameo in the christening scene.)
Star Trek Anthology: Variety. Sci Fi writers are invited to create one-off Trek episodes from a variety of ages and in a variety of styles.
Man, those were great shows. And had fantastic actors in them.
Post edited by daveyny on
STO Member since February 2009. I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born! Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
At least the way I rationalize it though, those traders wouldn't have been allowed to do that in the Prime universe because of the hypothetical trade embargo.
Then how was McCoy able to get Romulan ale?
He knew exactly where to go to hire a ship (ST-III:TSFS) for an 'off-the-books' trip...
Getting Romulan Ale was probably a piece of cake for him.
It seems McCoy has intimate knowledge on how to get things from the Black Market in BOTH Universes.
He was never really the completely "squeaky-clean" kind of character folks like to remember him as.
That's probably why Jim liked him so much, McCoy was willing to do whatever it took to get stuff done, even if it wasn't completely 'aboveboard'.
STO Member since February 2009. I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born! Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
At least the way I rationalize it though, those traders wouldn't have been allowed to do that in the Prime universe because of the hypothetical trade embargo.
Then how was McCoy able to get Romulan ale?
He knew exactly where to go to hire a ship (ST-III:TSFS) for an 'off-the-books' trip...
Getting Romulan Ale was probably a piece of cake for him.
It seems McCoy has intimate knowledge on how to get things from the Black Market in BOTH Universes.
He was never really the completely "squeaky-clean" kind of character folks like to remember him as.
I wouldn't doubt that there are all sorts of off the book ships making trips to a lot of off the books places.
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
If I recall, he may have even been a functional alcoholic, if judged by today's standards. Maybe Scotty too, though not sure.
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-) Proudly F2P.Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
If I recall, he may have even been a functional alcoholic, if judged by today's standards. Maybe Scotty too, though not sure.
It was the 60's. Everyone back then would be an alcoholic judged by today's standards. I remember in The Cage...the Doctor comes in and starts making Pike a drink.
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
If I recall, he may have even been a functional alcoholic, if judged by today's standards. Maybe Scotty too, though not sure.
It was the 60's. Everyone back then would be an alcoholic judged by today's standards. I remember in The Cage...the Doctor comes in and starts making Pike a drink.
Yeah, there's definitely a lot of alcohol-related humor that wouldn't be tolerated in a family show these days. It seems like no one thought anything of drunk and disorderly as laugh material, except *maybe* if someone got behind the wheel.
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I've never really bought the argument that prequels are to restrictive to tell good stories. That has always struck me as a cop out argument for subpar writing.
Enterprise didn't fail because it was a prequel, it failed because the writers didn't take advantage of the era to tell compelling stories. They were to insistent on treating it like an extension of TNG's directionless episodic format that they totally ignored the story potential of the birth of the Federation and the Earth-Romulan war. So what if they couldn't use the Ferengi, they never had a plan for what to do with them to begin with.
It is a situation where there is a give and take, some story options are removed but they are replaced by new opportunities. The trick is that the writers have to notice those opportunities and take advantage of them, which sadly Enterprise's writers didn't do. If Enterprise had been a show set in the 24th century there is no guarantee that it wouldn't have been plagued by poor story telling either.
If I recall, he may have even been a functional alcoholic, if judged by today's standards. Maybe Scotty too, though not sure.
It was the 60's. Everyone back then would be an alcoholic judged by today's standards. I remember in The Cage...the Doctor comes in and starts making Pike a drink.
Yeah, there's definitely a lot of alcohol-related humor that wouldn't be tolerated in a family show these days. It seems like no one thought anything of drunk and disorderly as laugh material, except *maybe* if someone got behind the wheel.
If you look at The Naked Time...which is pretty much the whole crew getting drunk...it was played for laughs
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
I've never really bought the argument that prequels are to restrictive to tell good stories. That has always struck me as a cop out argument for subpar writing.
Enterprise didn't fail because it was a prequel, it failed because the writers didn't take advantage of the era to tell compelling stories. They were to insistent on treating it like an extension of TNG's directionless episodic format that they totally ignored the story potential of the birth of the Federation and the Earth-Romulan war. So what if they couldn't use the Ferengi, they never had a plan for what to do with them to begin with.
It is a situation where there is a give and take, some story options are removed but they are replaced by new opportunities. The trick is that the writers have to notice those opportunities and take advantage of them, which sadly Enterprise's writers didn't do. If Enterprise had been a show set in the 24th century there is no guarantee that it wouldn't have been plagued by poor story telling either.
No one was saying that it failed because it's a prequel. People are saying that making it a prequel restricts the amount of storytelling that can be done. We are also talking about a fandom that eats up every bit of information about this show and complains if an episode shows Pike being left handed if the pilot showed he was right handed.
I've heard people mention they should have done the Earth-Romulan war. Again this would bump up against canon since Spock mentions this war happened when ship to ship visual communications were not made yet. Enterprise had ship to ship visual communications...so to accurately depict this war according to canon...we have to come up with a reason why they don't use ship to ship. This is what people mean by limiting the storytelling.
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
I ABSOLUTELY LUV the TOS episode "Balance of Terror", but there are several things in it that really don't make a whole lot of sense on the face of it.
I have no problem with the way ENTERPRISE fudged the edges, and believe that there's no way they could have fought the Romulan War without somebody seeing what the Romulans looked liked.
But, there's no reason that with the passing of time, things could have gotten a bit foggy as to the actual facts.
Especially for a person who seems to only have a "Family History" to back up his facts and is more than a bit bitter.
(Commander Hansen)
The Romulan Wars were fought to a standstill, with neither side really claiming a true victory. The history records probably reflect more of what the folks during that time wished had happened, than what actually happened.
It wouldn't be the first time something like that has happened in human history.
STO Member since February 2009. I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born! Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
Could the Vulcans have been deliberately witholding knowledge of their connection to the Romulans, due to how it might undercut their moral stance with Humanity? The High Command had only just been undone, might they have considered it logical to suppress facts which may have cast them ambiguously, or even made Humanity ask deeper questions/make closer ties with Romulus than Vulcan? Spock wasn't above manipulating the truth or going against orders when his mnhei'sahe* convinced him it was the right thing to do (ie trying to get Pike back to Talos) In this instance, I'd consider him a very unreliable narrator of the facts...
*Yes, I deliberately use the Romulan term, because such a concept, logically, would have its roots in Vulcan history dating back to before Surak's awakening to logic, and in the instance with Pike, Spock was acting on behaviourally-motivated honor/obligation, rather than pure logic.
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The only way a series can really work well is to either go the alt-u route (and thus TRIBBLE off JJ-haters once again), or move forward into the future. The other series still left massive swaths of the galaxy unexplored, you know; even if we managed to get back to the Delta Quadrant, as this game has reminded us, VOY only saw a narrow view of a corridor of space in the region, and never even touched on the vastness all around.
This is the main reason why I'd rather they set this past Voyager...no canon or previous shows to worry about.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
We don't know the date of first contact with the Cardassians other than it was sometime before TOS (ST:09 makes reference to a Cardassian drink).
You can have all the Romulans you want, you simply ignore the line in TOS that says we never saw them in the war. It was silly then and inconceivable now.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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And that wasn't just "a line" in "Balance of Terror" - it was a major plot point. Crew members started looking at Spock differently when they saw what Romulans looked like. (Among other things, it gave Kirk an excuse for that "no room on the bridge for bigotry" speech.) The viewer was encouraged to wonder if Spock was telling the truth - about much of anything. And then the Vulcan peacemonger starts calling for immediate attack against the warbird?!?
Ignore all that, and you haven't just ignored "a silly concept", you've done more damage to the canon than anything since the Xindi carved a canyon across Florida. The howls of outrage will be audible even without an internet connection.
Hell, if you're going to just toss Star Trek's universe-building (haphazard as it has been) whenever the mood strikes you, why not just create an original property?
Regarding knowing what the Romulans look like, I'm assuming Nero is the first one in the JJVerse to have shown his face.
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Well, there is still all the temporal cold war stuff that Enterprise introduced and gives us a hint at the future. In general, even without Enterprise, it seems time travel becomes almost casually available in the future. I think that's not really good for the franchise, though. Time Travel is too easy.
Probably because you want to keep too much of the trappings of Star Trek. Warp Drives, Tricorders, Vulcans...
Trying to come up with something that has all that and still seems original and not a knock-off is difficult and probably not worth the effort. Just make it Trek, because that's what you are trying to do.
Personally, I don't mind the idea of reimagining Star Trek, and fixing all the haphazard and inconsistent parts of the lore. But I still want my Captain Kirk, Picard, Sisko and even Janeway (just better written), Klingons, Romulans and what not.
I don't think Nero was the first one to show his face since everyone seemed to know they were romulans before he showed up above Vulcan
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
I admittedly don't have strong backing to this theory, but I've always been of the mind that the formal Prime Universe contact with the Cardassians occurred around the turn of the 24th century, or a little after, but that prior to then there may have been rumors or at least descriptions of the Cardassians that Feds might have been aware of without having ever seen them. To me this seems like a reasonable time for contact to have happened and then deteriorated into an ongoing series of border wars as each of them made claims and counterclaims on territory and as colonization by both entities moved in that direction.
Now, the other part of my headcanon, which I TOTALLY made up, is that formal contact was delayed despite knowledge of the Cardassians due to the 23rd-century Feds imposing a trade embargo/sanctions on the Cardassians for being a police state. Think of the treatment of certain police states on Earth. The TNG Feds wouldn't have the chutzpah to do something like that, but if Kirk's reaction to the Kohms (yes, I just went there
So that gets to how I headcanoned the JJverse. When the Narada attacked the Kelvin, we know that Starfleet's development started turning in a more militaristic direction. Not as much overtly, but we know that Section 31 gained sufficient influence to have a drydock and starship on their own. Overall, we're looking at a Federation a bit more willing to do deals with the "devil" if they think they need to do so to protect themselves. The Federation is now facing a double threat: the Klingon Empire, and what they think MAY be a Romulan threat...Nero's statements aside, for all they know, what Nero did WAS in fact state-sponsored.
So now think about the Cardassians. The Cardassians are not on great terms with either of the two Empires, but at that point had not really opened relations with the Federation. In my headcanon, the trade embargo from the Prime Universe never went into effect as the leadership of both governments was thinking about the possibility of an alliance of convenience between the Federation and the Union. Now, the obvious complaint here is that the Union is a second-rate power as we know it from DS9. Correct, but you'll notice that the Federation in the mid-23rd century fits that description as well. As we later find out, the attacks on the Laurentian and Vulcan systems together had a serious impact on the Federation. My personal impression is that the Federation is not as easily able to take those kinds of hits, in comparison to what we see in the TNG era. It is not unreasonable to consider the possibility, if you are in the leadership of the Federation or Cardassian Union, to consider allying with the other power that has bad blood with the same people you already do. It won't be a comfortable alliance for sure, and I would expect the Cardassians to try to manipulate it to their advantage in a long-term game that wouldn't manifest itself overtly right away, to become the dominant member of the alliance and eventually make a move against the Federation.
I would also expect Section 31 and the Obsidian Order to have been in contact with each other (projecting the Order's known contact with the Tal Shiar in the Dominion War era back into the JJ-23rd century). Which gets to one other point in my headcanon: KHAAAAAAAN. Just how did his appearance get changed so drastically when we know he has a healing factor so strong that it could very well resist the surgery? In the Prime Universe, while the Cardassians are behind in shipbuilding tech, they are undisputed masters of the Alpha Quadrant in biotech, as demonstrated by all of the things they pulled off in "Second Skin," and numerous incidents of passing their agents off as humans, Bajorans, and other species that look drastically different from them--agents who were not caught until years after the fact. I think it is possible the Order gave Section 31 at least a little advice in how successfully do the alterations on Khan...a "gift," or more like a means to start S31 down the path of being indebted to the Obsidian Order.
Now, again, NONE of this stuff I marked as headcanon has any formal basis in canon. I consider it plausible but not in any way provable, and Prime-Verse and JJVerse canon both could very easily be revealed to be something else entirely. It's just my personal speculation.
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Okay, thinking about it, I made a slight mistake. Ayel was actually the first Romulan to show his face in an open transmission in the JJverse, and he did so when attacking the Kelvin. So by the time Vulcan was attacked, everyone would know what Romulans looked like since Ayel let the cat out of the bag.
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Also remember that Kirk read Pike dissertation on the Kelvin incident and mentions that the ship was Romulan. We have that silly scene in the beer tap/ Communications room with Kirk getting numb tongue while trying to say Romulan
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Or an easy way to explain how there's a Cardassian drink on Earth is....traders. Some trader that goes out farther than the Federation does trades with the Cardassians and brings back a selection of their drinks.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
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Then how was McCoy able to get Romulan ale?
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Contraband. Not an open sale on the menu of a bar on Earth.
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true
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
My character Tsin'xing
Oooo... I remember that...
McMillian & Wife (Rock Hudson & Susan Saint James),
McCloud (Dennis Weaver),
Columbo (Peter Faulk),
Banacek (George Peppard),
Hec Ramsey (Richard Boone),
Quincy, M.E. (Jack Klugman),
Madigan (Richard Widmark),
McCoy (Tony Curtis)...
Man, those were great shows. And had fantastic actors in them.
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
He knew exactly where to go to hire a ship (ST-III:TSFS) for an 'off-the-books' trip...
Getting Romulan Ale was probably a piece of cake for him.
It seems McCoy has intimate knowledge on how to get things from the Black Market in BOTH Universes.
He was never really the completely "squeaky-clean" kind of character folks like to remember him as.
That's probably why Jim liked him so much, McCoy was willing to do whatever it took to get stuff done, even if it wasn't completely 'aboveboard'.
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
I wouldn't doubt that there are all sorts of off the book ships making trips to a lot of off the books places.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
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It was the 60's. Everyone back then would be an alcoholic judged by today's standards. I remember in The Cage...the Doctor comes in and starts making Pike a drink.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Yeah, there's definitely a lot of alcohol-related humor that wouldn't be tolerated in a family show these days. It seems like no one thought anything of drunk and disorderly as laugh material, except *maybe* if someone got behind the wheel.
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Enterprise didn't fail because it was a prequel, it failed because the writers didn't take advantage of the era to tell compelling stories. They were to insistent on treating it like an extension of TNG's directionless episodic format that they totally ignored the story potential of the birth of the Federation and the Earth-Romulan war. So what if they couldn't use the Ferengi, they never had a plan for what to do with them to begin with.
It is a situation where there is a give and take, some story options are removed but they are replaced by new opportunities. The trick is that the writers have to notice those opportunities and take advantage of them, which sadly Enterprise's writers didn't do. If Enterprise had been a show set in the 24th century there is no guarantee that it wouldn't have been plagued by poor story telling either.
If you look at The Naked Time...which is pretty much the whole crew getting drunk...it was played for laughs
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
No one was saying that it failed because it's a prequel. People are saying that making it a prequel restricts the amount of storytelling that can be done. We are also talking about a fandom that eats up every bit of information about this show and complains if an episode shows Pike being left handed if the pilot showed he was right handed.
I've heard people mention they should have done the Earth-Romulan war. Again this would bump up against canon since Spock mentions this war happened when ship to ship visual communications were not made yet. Enterprise had ship to ship visual communications...so to accurately depict this war according to canon...we have to come up with a reason why they don't use ship to ship. This is what people mean by limiting the storytelling.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
I have no problem with the way ENTERPRISE fudged the edges, and believe that there's no way they could have fought the Romulan War without somebody seeing what the Romulans looked liked.
But, there's no reason that with the passing of time, things could have gotten a bit foggy as to the actual facts.
Especially for a person who seems to only have a "Family History" to back up his facts and is more than a bit bitter.
(Commander Hansen)
The Romulan Wars were fought to a standstill, with neither side really claiming a true victory. The history records probably reflect more of what the folks during that time wished had happened, than what actually happened.
It wouldn't be the first time something like that has happened in human history.
I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
*Yes, I deliberately use the Romulan term, because such a concept, logically, would have its roots in Vulcan history dating back to before Surak's awakening to logic, and in the instance with Pike, Spock was acting on behaviourally-motivated honor/obligation, rather than pure logic.