"not needed or welcomed" and "no MMO does this"... laffo. The very fact that this thread exists is enough to answer the former, and as for the latter, plenty of MMOs allow it. One example was already given in this thread.
Also who cares what cryptic might have said years ago? As if they havn't changed their mind before.
I don't know of a single MMO that lets you change class...so don't give me this line that many MMO's do it.
Just because it isn't MMOs that you've heard of doesn't mean it doesn't happen. A decent number of Korean games allow it, for example.
I've played a number of MMO's...almost ever big MMO someone could name and not a single one sells a class change token.
How hard is it to understand that if a game isn't built with a class respec system in mind that it's a very hard task to overtake?
Only hard because you claim it is hard. Sure there is some coding to be done, but considering that there are already tokens that refund skill points and the like, it's not a stretch to think that changing classes is just so hard.
So...exact same thing can be said by the couple people claiming how easy it would be.
If it is so easy to change classes then why haven't other big name MMO's monetize it? Huh? WoW and ToR are two of the bigger names...both have purchasable leveling tokens...don't you think they would make a ton in class respec tokens? Especially with people like you in WoW and Tor, who would bounce from class to class just to be the best at what they do? They would make a killing...yet they don't do it?
People want to mention FF...well look at the game...it was designed with class changing in mind...STO, WoW, and ToR weren't.
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
I would love to be able to change my class for one of my characters. DCUO allows players to change their powerset/class using a power respec token that costs $10 on the marketplace and its one of the games best selling items.
I'd gladly pay as much as 1000 Zen to be able to use other classes' powers on my current character. APα on Sci and Eng, Orbital Strike on Tac and Sci, that would rule.
Only hard because you claim it is hard. Sure there is some coding to be done, but considering that there are already tokens that refund skill points and the like, it's not a stretch to think that changing classes is just so hard
First of all, I have no clue about the STO programming code. So I wouldn't know whether it is nigh impossible to do so without changing every line of code referring to the captain or whether it just would be a change in the database from "player.career=1" to "player.career=3" (pseudocode).
But I gather you haven't worked on a more major software project. Because you will first set up a basic architecture. And this will have certain constants. If it accomodates for possible future career changes, it would be easy to keep it. But if you did not have that in mind at all, it can get very complicated. Because programmers may use your class in unexpected ways and more directly than via just an "if-then-else" command. If it wasn't prepared from the start, Cryptic are likely not knowing themselves what amount of work it would be. And it would already be a lot of work to find out.
Complex programs tend to evolve on their own terms. Programmers soon can only make minor cosmetic changes and changing a thing that was set in stone in the theoretic architecture may be more easily done by completely starting anew from scratch.
Of course that is only the worst case scenario, and probably it won't be as bad, so you are right, it isn't a stretch to think it is comparatively easy. But it also isn't a stretch to think it would be a nightmare. And only Cryptic's programmers would know what it is. If they do, which isn't even sure.
My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
Final Fantasy XIV revolves around being able to change class at will. In fact, given enough time, you can unlock every class in the game on a single toon, and switch between them whenever you want.
You assume that what works in one game works in all and that is simply not the case. Something like that would not work in a game like this. People are already given descriptions of the 3 classes in game so they can pick which one is right for them. There is no need for a class change token. Changing skills or something such as that, is another story entirely. Also I would not consider FFXIV as true class switching, but simply as being able to unlock all specs in the game. That game was also designed with that in mind from the start, STO, WoW, TOR, and like games were not. As others have already pointed out there is a ton that rides on knowing what class you are. One thing that comes to mind is career specific kit modules. This is STO not FFXIV. If people want to request this then more power to them. I simply do not think it's needed as we have enough tools in place to let people decide what class is right for them.
Maybe, maybe not. I cannot speak for everyone, but I roll alts just because I like making new characters. I also like having the option to bring something different to the table when we do STFs and such together.
If the reason this is being requested is to as you said "bring something different to the table" then bring in an alt. It was never intended in this game for one toon to be able to do everything and that hasn't changed. This game was made with 3 independent classes in mind, and to allow such easy switching between the classes is not something simple. Now if Cryptic came out and said otherwise, then I would admit to be wrong about that. However given the track record of similar mmos such as WoW having to pretty much redesign things from the ground up as they did for things such as their cross realm tools, I highly suspect STO would have similar difficulty. It's not difficult to level alts in this game at all. Given as frequent of xp events as we've had lately, not to mention the vet boosts you can get for being a gold or lifetime member, or even just grouping with them, it's stupid easy to level alts if people want to try something different. You're pretty much guaranteed a level every episode you run or at least every other episode. That's pretty fast compared to some other mmos out there where it can take upwards of 100 quests or more in some cases to get a level.
Just because it isn't MMOs that you've heard of doesn't mean it doesn't happen. A decent number of Korean games allow it, for example.
Don't make a thread if you don't want to risk getting opinions that don't agree with your own or that you don't like. Also keep in mind, this isn't a Korean game, and this isn't Korea. What you fail to understand is that this game was NOT designed with such a system in mind. When you're basically redesigning a key aspect of the game it's typically a very large undertaking. This also strikes me as wanting all the benefits of another class, without having to do any of the work to level said class. No leveling a toon as a tactical officer and then swapping to a science does not count as working for that tactical science officer you now would have. Considering the ease at which you can level alts in this game I find it to be a huge waste to put resources into a class change token when those resources can be invested elsewhere. I'm sure you probably disagree with that and that's cool if you do, but that's what I believe. WoW is one example as I said above. It took them quite a long time to implement the cross-realm stuff you see today since it originally was not designed with that stuff in mind.
How bout if it's a toon that basically has been around since you started, has a bunch of freebie stuff like the Dyson stuff(which gives me free XII warp drives at will and free secondary deflectors that are quite good) and other things, but I just don't feel he should be a tac?
Dump all of that stuff? Umm...NO.
Considering that most of the stuff you're referring to is account wide now this argument is basically irrelevant as you can simply reclaim those items on another toon. All you have to do is reclaim the ship, crack it open, and viola there's your Solanae warp core. Same thing with the solanae secondary deflector, reclaim the ship, crack open the back, and there you go. I've done it on every new toon I've made so far and every toon of mine has the Samsar, Dyson Science, Ferengi Nandi, and other like ships/items. I will agree that certain things such as the crystalline shard/grenade kit module should be an account wide unlock, but beyond most everything you could want you can already reclaim.
As to wanting them to be a different class, you should have thought about that before you made the toon. You're given clear descriptions of the different classes so you know what each one is intended to do. You're also asked for a final confirmation on everything as well.
Only hard because you claim it is hard. Sure there is some coding to be done, but considering that there are already tokens that refund skill points and the like, it's not a stretch to think that changing classes is just so hard.
Have you ever tried to mess with code, even just to throw in a mod for a game or something like that? Judging by this comment I highly suspect you haven't or you would understand it's not always as simple as you think. I wish it was that simple but for most games that are designed like this as I said above, it rarely ever is that simple. If one little tiny thing is out of place with the code it can royally TRIBBLE up the entire thing you're making/modding. Look at some of the bugs that we've seen in STO over the years, some of them I'm sure were simple fixes, but look at what kinds of trouble they caused because of coding conflicts/errors. In STO as I said above, it was not intended for toons to be able to do everything. Even in Trek lore no normal person was ever able to do everything, and the same holds true here. It's also a huge leap between refunding skill points, and flat out changing the entire class of a toon to something else. To think that it's possible is not a stretch no, but simply because you think something should be possible does not mean that it is, or that it will be an easy task.
As I said above, this whole thing honestly strikes me as wanting access to all the benefits of another class, without doing the actual work to level the class.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
Final Fantasy XIV revolves around being able to change class at will. In fact, given enough time, you can unlock every class in the game on a single toon, and switch between them whenever you want.
FFXIV was born with that feature, it was planned all the time since the game was (badly) developed. Every later addition was built on these premises.
A mmo that is NOT planned with class changes requires substantial rework. Now, everything in a MMO is code and data, and those can be changed if needed. But the sheer amount of effort required to change something that big (many months of dedicated development and testing) just to sell some tokens? Nope, I can't see that happen. Cryptic can just make new ships (minimal effort compared to class change tokens) and still make the same money (probably even more).
What in the name of hell does resetting your class have to do with the first 2? 3rd I'll give ya some programming and coding things to do, but changing your class, has ZERO to do with any of the above considering the story is the EXACT same regardless what you play except maybe a few minor achievements you may get for class specific stuff.
But overall, first 2 mean zip.
Gameplay and balance apply too. Mainly because, as people above have posted, there's going to be some disparities throughout the game systems that were tied to your original choice of class. Plus, as has already been mentioned, there are going to be a lot of players who are going to be useless after switching classes, and even more who will cry foul over their kits, ships, etc not being refunded/replaced with class-appropriate options.
I'd like to borrow your time machine so I can travel back to 2008 and force the staff at Cryptic to document their game and document all the rules before anyone creates a character. Also, Cryptic will be forbidden to ever make any changes to the game whatsoever.
What? You don't have a time machine? That renders your 'opinion' completely and utterly irrelevant. Irrelevant forum post is irrelevant.
Say what? I'm just saying - create a character, and live with it through the game's changes. Don't like the class after a while, then make another character.
Now if you excuse me, I don't have... time for this
I'd be too afraid of what non-career-specific stuff I would lose in the transition to ever use it on a character I valued. I don't want to effectively delete a character and all the time invested in them, to be replaced by a completely new one that only shares the same rank and name.
That said, I wouldn't deprive everyone else of the option, but neither would I want it to be quick or easy. My proposal:
After first reaching level 60, every "specialization" you completely max out awards you with a token that allows you to train that toon in one of the two other careers' abilities, at one level lower than endgame. I imagine we're all thinking about Attack Pattern Alpha, Miracle Worker, and Subnucleonic Beam, but substitute whatever you wish. And you may only gain one extra skill from each of the two other career paths.
So, for example, a lvl60 Sci maxes out Intel, is awarded a token and learns Miracle Worker II, and can learn no more Engineering abilities. Then later maxes out Pilot, and learns Attack Pattern Alpha II, and that's the end of the Tac skills they can gain.
You'll notice I'm not interested in monetizing something that's locked behind such a lengthy grind, but if that's the sticking point, keep the grind and make the cost no more than 500 zen.
Bad. People in the thread have already named at least one mmo where you can. So you do know of a single one, the Final Fantasy one.
Not doubting that there are some, but FF doesn't really seem like an example at all. You unlock things called classes between which you can switch, yes. More akin to the traits/space skills here. That it features a different name may be but isn't the point.
The question is whether something was set up as put in stone or as changeable/expandable. The question is not so much whether STO could work with class changes (it certainly can) but if the code as is could handle it without a very major rewrite.
My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
"not needed or welcomed" and "no MMO does this"... laffo. The very fact that this thread exists is enough to answer the former, and as for the latter, plenty of MMOs allow it. One example was already given in this thread.
Also who cares what cryptic might have said years ago? As if they havn't changed their mind before.
I don't know of a single MMO that lets you change class...so don't give me this line that many MMO's do it.
Bad. People in the thread have already named at least one mmo where you can. So you do know of a single one, the Final Fantasy one.
Another is ArcheAge, but that's not really much of an endorsement.
I can tell you an excellent one though, Project: Gorgon.
FFXIV isn't what I would call true class switching, but simply allowing access to all specs in the game. FFXIV was also designed with that in mind where as STO wasn't. mmos like STO, WoW, SWTOR were never designed with something like this in mind. Still say people have far too many tools available now and they need to just suck it up and level a different toon.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
Comments
So...exact same thing can be said by the couple people claiming how easy it would be.
If it is so easy to change classes then why haven't other big name MMO's monetize it? Huh? WoW and ToR are two of the bigger names...both have purchasable leveling tokens...don't you think they would make a ton in class respec tokens? Especially with people like you in WoW and Tor, who would bounce from class to class just to be the best at what they do? They would make a killing...yet they don't do it?
People want to mention FF...well look at the game...it was designed with class changing in mind...STO, WoW, and ToR weren't.
I also have Tactical and Science alt's, but it would still be an interesting test..
First of all, I have no clue about the STO programming code. So I wouldn't know whether it is nigh impossible to do so without changing every line of code referring to the captain or whether it just would be a change in the database from "player.career=1" to "player.career=3" (pseudocode).
But I gather you haven't worked on a more major software project. Because you will first set up a basic architecture. And this will have certain constants. If it accomodates for possible future career changes, it would be easy to keep it. But if you did not have that in mind at all, it can get very complicated. Because programmers may use your class in unexpected ways and more directly than via just an "if-then-else" command. If it wasn't prepared from the start, Cryptic are likely not knowing themselves what amount of work it would be. And it would already be a lot of work to find out.
Complex programs tend to evolve on their own terms. Programmers soon can only make minor cosmetic changes and changing a thing that was set in stone in the theoretic architecture may be more easily done by completely starting anew from scratch.
Of course that is only the worst case scenario, and probably it won't be as bad, so you are right, it isn't a stretch to think it is comparatively easy. But it also isn't a stretch to think it would be a nightmare. And only Cryptic's programmers would know what it is. If they do, which isn't even sure.
You assume that what works in one game works in all and that is simply not the case. Something like that would not work in a game like this. People are already given descriptions of the 3 classes in game so they can pick which one is right for them. There is no need for a class change token. Changing skills or something such as that, is another story entirely. Also I would not consider FFXIV as true class switching, but simply as being able to unlock all specs in the game. That game was also designed with that in mind from the start, STO, WoW, TOR, and like games were not. As others have already pointed out there is a ton that rides on knowing what class you are. One thing that comes to mind is career specific kit modules. This is STO not FFXIV. If people want to request this then more power to them. I simply do not think it's needed as we have enough tools in place to let people decide what class is right for them.
If the reason this is being requested is to as you said "bring something different to the table" then bring in an alt. It was never intended in this game for one toon to be able to do everything and that hasn't changed. This game was made with 3 independent classes in mind, and to allow such easy switching between the classes is not something simple. Now if Cryptic came out and said otherwise, then I would admit to be wrong about that. However given the track record of similar mmos such as WoW having to pretty much redesign things from the ground up as they did for things such as their cross realm tools, I highly suspect STO would have similar difficulty. It's not difficult to level alts in this game at all. Given as frequent of xp events as we've had lately, not to mention the vet boosts you can get for being a gold or lifetime member, or even just grouping with them, it's stupid easy to level alts if people want to try something different. You're pretty much guaranteed a level every episode you run or at least every other episode. That's pretty fast compared to some other mmos out there where it can take upwards of 100 quests or more in some cases to get a level.
Believe what you want to. If you have something to rebut what I've said then please feel free to post it.
Don't make a thread if you don't want to risk getting opinions that don't agree with your own or that you don't like. Also keep in mind, this isn't a Korean game, and this isn't Korea. What you fail to understand is that this game was NOT designed with such a system in mind. When you're basically redesigning a key aspect of the game it's typically a very large undertaking. This also strikes me as wanting all the benefits of another class, without having to do any of the work to level said class. No leveling a toon as a tactical officer and then swapping to a science does not count as working for that tactical science officer you now would have. Considering the ease at which you can level alts in this game I find it to be a huge waste to put resources into a class change token when those resources can be invested elsewhere. I'm sure you probably disagree with that and that's cool if you do, but that's what I believe. WoW is one example as I said above. It took them quite a long time to implement the cross-realm stuff you see today since it originally was not designed with that stuff in mind.
Considering that most of the stuff you're referring to is account wide now this argument is basically irrelevant as you can simply reclaim those items on another toon. All you have to do is reclaim the ship, crack it open, and viola there's your Solanae warp core. Same thing with the solanae secondary deflector, reclaim the ship, crack open the back, and there you go. I've done it on every new toon I've made so far and every toon of mine has the Samsar, Dyson Science, Ferengi Nandi, and other like ships/items. I will agree that certain things such as the crystalline shard/grenade kit module should be an account wide unlock, but beyond most everything you could want you can already reclaim.
As to wanting them to be a different class, you should have thought about that before you made the toon. You're given clear descriptions of the different classes so you know what each one is intended to do. You're also asked for a final confirmation on everything as well.
Have you ever tried to mess with code, even just to throw in a mod for a game or something like that? Judging by this comment I highly suspect you haven't or you would understand it's not always as simple as you think. I wish it was that simple but for most games that are designed like this as I said above, it rarely ever is that simple. If one little tiny thing is out of place with the code it can royally TRIBBLE up the entire thing you're making/modding. Look at some of the bugs that we've seen in STO over the years, some of them I'm sure were simple fixes, but look at what kinds of trouble they caused because of coding conflicts/errors. In STO as I said above, it was not intended for toons to be able to do everything. Even in Trek lore no normal person was ever able to do everything, and the same holds true here. It's also a huge leap between refunding skill points, and flat out changing the entire class of a toon to something else. To think that it's possible is not a stretch no, but simply because you think something should be possible does not mean that it is, or that it will be an easy task.
As I said above, this whole thing honestly strikes me as wanting access to all the benefits of another class, without doing the actual work to level the class.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
FFXIV was born with that feature, it was planned all the time since the game was (badly) developed. Every later addition was built on these premises.
A mmo that is NOT planned with class changes requires substantial rework. Now, everything in a MMO is code and data, and those can be changed if needed. But the sheer amount of effort required to change something that big (many months of dedicated development and testing) just to sell some tokens? Nope, I can't see that happen. Cryptic can just make new ships (minimal effort compared to class change tokens) and still make the same money (probably even more).
Gameplay and balance apply too. Mainly because, as people above have posted, there's going to be some disparities throughout the game systems that were tied to your original choice of class. Plus, as has already been mentioned, there are going to be a lot of players who are going to be useless after switching classes, and even more who will cry foul over their kits, ships, etc not being refunded/replaced with class-appropriate options.
Say what?
Now if you excuse me, I don't have... time for this
That said, I wouldn't deprive everyone else of the option, but neither would I want it to be quick or easy. My proposal:
After first reaching level 60, every "specialization" you completely max out awards you with a token that allows you to train that toon in one of the two other careers' abilities, at one level lower than endgame. I imagine we're all thinking about Attack Pattern Alpha, Miracle Worker, and Subnucleonic Beam, but substitute whatever you wish. And you may only gain one extra skill from each of the two other career paths.
So, for example, a lvl60 Sci maxes out Intel, is awarded a token and learns Miracle Worker II, and can learn no more Engineering abilities. Then later maxes out Pilot, and learns Attack Pattern Alpha II, and that's the end of the Tac skills they can gain.
You'll notice I'm not interested in monetizing something that's locked behind such a lengthy grind, but if that's the sticking point, keep the grind and make the cost no more than 500 zen.
Not doubting that there are some, but FF doesn't really seem like an example at all. You unlock things called classes between which you can switch, yes. More akin to the traits/space skills here. That it features a different name may be but isn't the point.
The question is whether something was set up as put in stone or as changeable/expandable. The question is not so much whether STO could work with class changes (it certainly can) but if the code as is could handle it without a very major rewrite.
FFXIV isn't what I would call true class switching, but simply allowing access to all specs in the game. FFXIV was also designed with that in mind where as STO wasn't. mmos like STO, WoW, SWTOR were never designed with something like this in mind. Still say people have far too many tools available now and they need to just suck it up and level a different toon.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
Boom problem solved. Host of other problems appear.