My Honest Feelings about STO

semalda226

(Before I start I just wanna say this is not a toting the flag thread or anything of the sort so don't take it that way. Thank you!)
In playing this game for years I have to say that when you take out all the gameplay and bias and look at the story as a whole it is actually very well written and has been shown a lot of love. When you play thru the game take an honest look at the story, ignore the bugs, the ships, the non-canonical characters, and just look at the story. I love it! It shows a deep caring for what makes Star Trek well...Star Trek. If CBS ever decides to make a new Star Trek series (wishful thinking I know) they could take this game as a template and have a very good series. Taking it from season 1 to now (season 10.5) you have a very indepth storyline. And to be fair they could easily take the Content we have and make a TV season out of each game season maybe 15 episodes long with maybe 7 or 8 of filler AND IT WOULD BE GOOD!

This is just my personal opinion of course but take an honest look at the story without bias or prejudice and tell me if you agree or disagree.

talonxv

Problem is with the story, way too focused on "warp in, blow stuff up, beam somewhere, shoot more stuff, solve problem usually by killing hundreds of people, beam back up, blow more stuff up, then warp away job done."

I mean seriously, my fed main has probably killed the equivalent of the Earth's population about 3 times over now.

semalda226

Please read the post take out the gameplay and look at the story. Basically meaning the whole thing with the Undine infiltration, the Devidian attacks, the return of the delayed Dominion forces. It's all a very well thought out story. The stuff you are mentioning is all mmo gameplay mechanics.

talonxv

semalda226 wrote: »

Please read the post take out the gameplay and look at the story. Basically meaning the whole thing with the Undine infiltration, the Devidian attacks, the return of the delayed Dominion forces. It's all a very well thought out story. The stuff you are mentioning is all mmo gameplay mechanics.

Not really so much. I mean look at the Dominion return and the last part of the Cardassian Arc. That last 5 episodes(which was a special way back when) even with the story, you have to do just as I said. Run in, blow stuff up like rambo, then go back to your ship and blow more stuff up.

I mean if it could be adapted out of that, might have something. And I'd LOVE to see some of the ships like the Vesta as the centerpiece of a deep exploration Star Trek.

Though with some changes the DR arc could have some far reaching interest.

semalda226

So you are trying to say that in the case of the dominion return you wouldn't see a episode on TV of a stealth like strike team beaming to DS9 maybe getting into a phaser fight and then having to flee from the swarm of ships? Cause that happens a lot in the tv series.

talonxv

semalda226 wrote: »

So you are trying to say that in the case of the dominion return you wouldn't see a episode on TV of a stealth like strike team beaming to DS9 maybe getting into a phaser fight and then having to flee from the swarm of ships? Cause that happens a lot in the tv series.

In DS9, that didn't happen till WAY later in the show, in TNG, it almost never happened, in TOS again didn't really happen. Firefights are cool and all, but not all the time every time.

Again, DR has more potential to be something that could be adapted. Going back to see what happened 25 years after voyager left and having a quick way back and forth to really establish a foot hold.

Meeting the Cooperative, seeing Nelix again and helping the Talaxians, stopping the Vodwaaur, etc. Has all the elements without just plain "FIRE EVERYTHING!"

semalda226

I agree but I'm just mainly talking about adapting the entire story as a whole. I mean you obviously aren't gonna see 1 captian take out 50 ships...plus the series adaptation could potentially have a unique element on that they could do a series (and while this would take some serious creative work) to follow all 3 factions. In a way as such that maybe 6 episodes ago you saw what (random name here) Captian Koth (KDF) was doing with his rowdy crew and kinda wanna see what's been going on with him and then maybe get to see Captian Temara (RRF) and see what she and her romulan crew are up to. And that kind of story could culminate eventually into all 3 captians at the same time towards the end. But I'm a dreamer CBS could never do something soo amazing.

mustrumridcully0

There are a lot of compromises that need to be made for gameplay. Just reading story just wouldn't be much of a game. And of course, some things are just written imperfectly and could (even within the concept of a game) probably be made better, given more time and resources (or just the right idea at the right time).

But the core of the story still is pretty well done. And I think there is also a lot of love for all things Star Trek. Story elements that were never expanded on in Trek are taking up and spun into something new.
Using the Iconians to bind together a lot of the story was interesting and it has some of the metaplot writing that you might otherwise know from the Marvel Universe movies.

I always have to chuckle when people claim that the people making this game don't care about Star Trek - the obscure stuff from Star Trek they dig up to put into stories... One shouldn't believe that the love and care for a franchise automatically means that people will make all the same decisions and you can agree with them all the time. Just look at Trek fans fighting amongst each other about elements of the lore and their interpretation of them. (Favorite example: Some people love Section 31, true fans* like me of course hate it as an evil thing that must be extinguished before it taints the soul of everything Star Trek stands for.)

*) For the authenticity of the example, I did deliberately and willfully make a "No True Scotsman Fallacy" there. This is often how we argue amongst ourselves, isn't it? Anyone that doesn't agree on a topic in Trek lore might simply not be a true fan or not follow the true lore...

talonxv

mustrumridcully0 wrote: »

There are a lot of compromises that need to be made for gameplay. Just reading story just wouldn't be much of a game. And of course, some things are just written imperfectly and could (even within the concept of a game) probably be made better, given more time and resources (or just the right idea at the right time).

But the core of the story still is pretty well done. And I think there is also a lot of love for all things Star Trek. Story elements that were never expanded on in Trek are taking up and spun into something new.
Using the Iconians to bind together a lot of the story was interesting and it has some of the metaplot writing that you might otherwise know from the Marvel Universe movies.

I always have to chuckle when people claim that the people making this game don't care about Star Trek - the obscure stuff from Star Trek they dig up to put into stories... One shouldn't believe that the love and care for a franchise automatically means that people will make all the same decisions and you can agree with them all the time. Just look at Trek fans fighting amongst each other about elements of the lore and their interpretation of them. (Favorite example: Some people love Section 31, true fans* like me of course hate it as an evil thing that must be extinguished before it taints the soul of everything Star Trek stands for.)

*) For the authenticity of the example, I did deliberately and willfully make a "No True Scotsman Fallacy" there. This is often how we argue amongst ourselves, isn't it? Anyone that doesn't agree on a topic in Trek lore might simply not be a true fan or not follow the true lore...

I actually saw Section 31 as legit, because come on, you really think humanity for all of how it's been "improved" wouldn't still have something like that lurking around.

US, I point to CIA and NSA, I Rest my case.

gulberat

talonxv wrote: »

semalda226 wrote: »

Please read the post take out the gameplay and look at the story. Basically meaning the whole thing with the Undine infiltration, the Devidian attacks, the return of the delayed Dominion forces. It's all a very well thought out story. The stuff you are mentioning is all mmo gameplay mechanics.

Not really so much. I mean look at the Dominion return and the last part of the Cardassian Arc. That last 5 episodes(which was a special way back when) even with the story, you have to do just as I said. Run in, blow stuff up like rambo, then go back to your ship and blow more stuff up.

I mean if it could be adapted out of that, might have something. And I'd LOVE to see some of the ships like the Vesta as the centerpiece of a deep exploration Star Trek.

Though with some changes the DR arc could have some far reaching interest.

I think it would be entirely possible to adapt it if not tied to gameplay mechanics. That's the thing that really restricts the story. I think without that you'd see more diplomacy, more nonlethal options, etc. BUT--and this is where I STRONGLY disagree with Roddenberry purists--I strongly believe that a more militarized Starfleet IS the logical cultural fallout of DS9 and the Dominion War. As long as they resist the temptation to go too gritty as is so popular with stuff like nuBSG, Game of Thrones, Breaking Bad, and The Walking Dead, and keep it balanced like DS9 was, I think that it might actually stand a chance.

(Mind you I liked nuBSG on its own merits, and I guess some of those other shows could be good but I really felt like seeing that approach once, I've seen all of those Crapsack World shows and I don't need to see any others.)

talonxv

gulberat wrote: »

talonxv wrote: »

semalda226 wrote: »

Please read the post take out the gameplay and look at the story. Basically meaning the whole thing with the Undine infiltration, the Devidian attacks, the return of the delayed Dominion forces. It's all a very well thought out story. The stuff you are mentioning is all mmo gameplay mechanics.

Not really so much. I mean look at the Dominion return and the last part of the Cardassian Arc. That last 5 episodes(which was a special way back when) even with the story, you have to do just as I said. Run in, blow stuff up like rambo, then go back to your ship and blow more stuff up.

I mean if it could be adapted out of that, might have something. And I'd LOVE to see some of the ships like the Vesta as the centerpiece of a deep exploration Star Trek.

Though with some changes the DR arc could have some far reaching interest.

I think it would be entirely possible to adapt it if not tied to gameplay mechanics. That's the thing that really restricts the story. I think without that you'd see more diplomacy, more nonlethal options, etc. BUT--and this is where I STRONGLY disagree with Roddenberry purists--I strongly believe that a more militarized Starfleet IS the logical cultural fallout of DS9 and the Dominion War. As long as they resist the temptation to go too gritty as is so popular with stuff like nuBSG, Game of Thrones, Breaking Bad, and The Walking Dead, and keep it balanced like DS9 was, I think that it might actually stand a chance.

(Mind you I liked nuBSG on its own merits, and I guess some of those other shows could be good but I really felt like seeing that approach once, I've seen all of those Crapsack World shows and I don't need to see any others.)

The funny thing is, even the TOS was militarized, just people look at it with rosy colored lenses. How many times was Kirk nearly court marshaled? Would a civilian service do a COURT MARSHAL?

turbomagnus

Something to remember is that each series reflects the time it was made...
TOS was all about discovery and looking to the future (and how many episodes did it have saying "nuclear weapons are bad"? I can think of three right off the top of my head...)
TNG had a big focus on making new allies out of old enemies and overcoming adversity and tough times, coming right at the end of the Cold War as it did...
DS9 started with a return to normalcy and found itself moving to dealing with corruption, manipulation, etc.... which was right about the time a President was facing impeachment and investigation - the highest office in America, a position that was supposed to mean something was tarnished, just like the ideals of Star Trek Exploration and Peace were tarnished by a war.
Voyager was all about unfamiliar territory and trying to find the way home, dealing with struggles and adversity while maintaining sight of a goal..

STO is about a time of conflict, strife and disagreement, allies have become enemies and shining beacons of exploration and diplomacy have become dim lights amidst the explosions and flares of war, but it's also about moving forward, trying to restore hope and peace, overcoming differences and coming together against the true threats, being willing to do the right thing instead of the easy one, until finally we make it through to the other side where a future of discovery and advancement are meant to await.

semalda226

Honestly even that would work with the times right now ( not gonna get into political or RL issues) but we have deals being made, rogue elements at work, threats both internal and external, refugees from a ravaged area desperately seeking a new home. All the story elements we have right now kinda fit no?

turbomagnus

Exactly what I'm saying.

semalda226

So new Trek series please? =3

hunteralpha84

Overall I liked the story in sto. There was some weak points like the cardassian arc.

And I feel like they could have kept species 8472 a separate thing from the iconian storyline. Theyre powerful so finding out theyre puppets was a bit meh.

bernatk

Let's just hope ST Uncharted comes to fruition someday...

And while Starfleet is a modern navy it should use deadly force as a last resort. Leave violence to klingons and romulans.

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noroblad

As a kdf player mostly, I would say that the story makes almost no sense (about half of it is running around helping weaklings for no good reason, and the other half does not make a coherent tale because of it). The romulan version is very good, possibly the best of the 3. Far as it goes, for rom and kdf I have no problem with killing everyone that gets in my way. That part works well -- and makes no sense for the feds. So the feds make sense in text but not in approach / behavior. Kdf makes sense in behavior but the text is garbled. Roms, it works out pretty well across the board, altho roms would not mind a few victims they really should be more subtle... the scimitar up the middle approach is a little klingonish.

strathkin

semalda226 wrote: »

Please read the post take out the gameplay and look at the story. Basically meaning the whole thing with the Undine infiltration, the Devidian attacks, the return of the delayed Dominion forces. It's all a very well thought out story. The stuff you are mentioning is all mmo gameplay mechanics.

Semalda I understand where you're coming from (taking out the gameplay mechanics) I'd very much agree with your opinion -- it is very well written -- it has a lot of highs that present moral or ethical challenges just like Star Trek series. I will admit there are a few remaining area's that could yet be improved, yet content designers have done a good job of resolving these into a cohesive storyline. The romulan story arc missions were revised earlier this year nicely, and a revised Cardassian rewrite removes a limitation, that may have limited exploration into the Gamma Quadrant. Overall the storyline for all factions if of high calibre.

Star Trek Lore has introduced Species from the Gamma Quadrant most of which we've yet to see in game. We've seen the following races of the Gamma Quadrant like, Changlings, Gem Hadar, and Vorta. Races of the Gamma Quadrant we've yet seen in game include: the Hunters (like Hirogen of Delta), Dosi (Traits like Ferengi), Ennis, Kurillians, Rakhari, Saltah'na (phoenetic: sul-tu-NAW : "thought" mostly destroyed in conflicts with Telepathic Traits), Skrreea, T-Rogorans, Teplanites, Tosk, Verathans (phoenetic: vuh-RATH-uns), Wadi (phoenetic: WAH-dee), or the Yaderans.

http://www.startrek.com/database_article_navigator#Alien

There was also a lot of early work in the Republic story begining with Spock's goal to encourage reunification (perhaps a vision still a century away, or at least strong diplomatic ties) with D'tan as the leader of the Romulan Republic. Spock's vision continues with the monument on New Romulus & Vulcan to a good man most of knew as Spock. D'tan's Romulan Republic portrays a people more similar to humans, still filled with emotion not logic as a guiding principle, yet very different from the Imperial Navy or more specifically the Tal-Shiar--family centered & generally good people like we saw on Virinat. Vulcan's relationship with human's has evolved well, and will serve to rebuild ties with their Romulan brothers and sisters. Beautiful story of hope, rebuilding & reaching out.

I also loved the way they concluded the Iconian mission Midnight, it was true to Picard's assumption from Artifacts they were a peaceful people, and I'll admit I yearn to want to know more about them... even the preservers we may have lost? Hopefully the storyline continues to play a larger role in future missions -- game play & mechanics attract one audience -- story & character development draw trekkers who shared Roddenberry's vision for humanity.

Have a good evening / day tomorrow Semalda! I know another one of your posts suggested it could form a basis for a new series based on STO; never give up STO concludes many loose ends well and cryptic does consult with CBS. Perhaps this might satisfy your taste's mean while, the list of actors & creative designers from Star Trek grow day by day:

http://startrekrenegades.com/home/
http://startrekrenegades.com/home/andy-probert-joins-renegades/ (NOTE: The STO connection here)

It's independly financed and not yet backed by CBS, yet permits them to move forward. The story occurs a decade or more before our current timeline, with many influences by Section 31, so intelligence will reduce the impact on our current storyline. Still never say never to CBS changing their mind down the road, it may continue Roddenberry's ideals with a different economic model. A tradition one could say STO has also adopted in the free to play model.

strathkin

noroblad wrote: »

As a kdf player mostly, I would say that the story makes almost no sense (about half of it is running around helping weaklings for no good reason, and the other half does not make a coherent tale because of it). The romulan version is very good, possibly the best of the 3. Far as it goes, for rom and kdf I have no problem with killing everyone that gets in my way. That part works well -- and makes no sense for the feds. So the feds make sense in text but not in approach / behavior. Kdf makes sense in behavior but the text is garbled. Roms, it works out pretty well across the board, altho roms would not mind a few victims they really should be more subtle... the scimitar up the middle approach is a little klingonish.

I agree with your statement that the Romulan story was extremely well put together, yet feel differently about the Klingon Story than how you interpret it. It shows two distinct elements, the first being the larger and more traditional element, Worf's family and father were long strong founders in a proud tradition, that is, until the Kitamir incident created by corruption and dishonorable conduct framed Worf's father. As I said in another thread I'm sad some believe the House of Duras as well as his sisters Lursa and B'Etor, and later Sela's involvement misrepresent Klingon honor and virtue but do not extend to all or most. Klingon's are warriors but they are also sensible and intelligent, have formed alliances to grow the empire, then can also be very strong yet sensible people. Worf's family had established roots in high places as Worf's nanny or Nurse to House of Mogh (Kahlest) spoke of his fathers honorable ways prior to discommendation.

If you require example just look how Klingon Spirtual leaders trained in Kahless's principles speak. In the episode where Worf meets Kahless he's portrayed as a proud warrior but is very wise, intelligent, caring & genuine man; one which united Klingons (brought them together) and created spirtual leaders based on noble teachings. We've seen what can happen when a few soundbites or character exceptions are taken out of context or without understanding, to know someone or something one must constantly update their views or opinions with new information as it becomes available, without patience | knowledge| perspective | wisdom to often the wrong opinions are formed on many things.

http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/House_of_Duras
http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/K'mpec NOTE: K'mpec & Mogh were friends & longest serving Chancilor.

Even K'mpec (Leader of High Council) in an earlier TNG episode (Sins of the Father) realized it was a blemish to his honor (who built up the Fed alliance) when he covered up the dishonor of the Duras family to save the Empire. At that time he gave a long pause before turning his back to Worf, realizing he placed a large burden on Worf, one he should never have to acknowledge, Mogh was and remains a Honorable House/Family--yet Worf accepted discommendation not despite honor | because of it. The Duras family represents a long running and corrupt element that caused considerable strife for several generations at different times. We've seen many times throughout history that it only takes a few bad apples to tarnish or spoil how others perceive a culture or people. Don't let the House of Duras give the wrong impressions of Klingons. Nor should we let the damage Sela's father started on Romulus, and continued herself paint all romulans in a negative light--Spock lived among romulans peacefully for many years in the TNG timeline for that reason.

azurianstar

semalda226 wrote: »

If CBS ever decides to make a new Star Trek series (wishful thinking I know) they could take this game as a template and have a very good series. Taking it from season 1 to now (season 10.5) you have a very indepth storyline. And to be fair they could easily take the Content we have and make a TV season out of each game season maybe 15 episodes long with maybe 7 or 8 of filler AND IT WOULD BE GOOD!

Syfy already did similarly with Defiant, tieing their TV show with their MMO, and it failed. CBS will not follow suit, especially this late in the game. Frankly, STO was lucky to even get a STO Novel published years ago.

Also lets not forget CBS even turned down ideas far better than STO. Like Mr. Dorn's Captain Worf series, Tim Russ's Renegades, and Star Trek Axanar. So if CBS was going to make a new Star Trek series, it's obviously going to have to be significantly better than all these ideas.

mustrumridcully0

azurianstar wrote: »

semalda226 wrote: »

If CBS ever decides to make a new Star Trek series (wishful thinking I know) they could take this game as a template and have a very good series. Taking it from season 1 to now (season 10.5) you have a very indepth storyline. And to be fair they could easily take the Content we have and make a TV season out of each game season maybe 15 episodes long with maybe 7 or 8 of filler AND IT WOULD BE GOOD!

Syfy already did similarly with Defiant, tieing their TV show with their MMO, and it failed. CBS will not follow suit, especially this late in the game. Frankly, STO was lucky to even get a STO Novel published years ago.

Also lets not forget CBS even turned down ideas far better than STO. Like Mr. Dorn's Captain Worf series, Tim Russ's Renegades, and Star Trek Axanar. So if CBS was going to make a new Star Trek series, it's obviously going to have to be significantly better than all these ideas.

azurianstar wrote: »

semalda226 wrote: »

If CBS ever decides to make a new Star Trek series (wishful thinking I know) they could take this game as a template and have a very good series. Taking it from season 1 to now (season 10.5) you have a very indepth storyline. And to be fair they could easily take the Content we have and make a TV season out of each game season maybe 15 episodes long with maybe 7 or 8 of filler AND IT WOULD BE GOOD!

Syfy already did similarly with Defiant, tieing their TV show with their MMO, and it failed. CBS will not follow suit, especially this late in the game. Frankly, STO was lucky to even get a STO Novel published years ago.

Also lets not forget CBS even turned down ideas far better than STO. Like Mr. Dorn's Captain Worf series, Tim Russ's Renegades, and Star Trek Axanar. So if CBS was going to make a new Star Trek series, it's obviously going to have to be significantly better than all these ideas.

And they might realize they can't guarantee that. Maybe in special effects with a better budget, but in writing? No guarentees.

newnja

Well put, kind Sir OP.

strathkin

And yet the list of cast and crew for Star Trek Renegades continues to grow... Tuvok, the Doctor, Chekov, Echeb and yes now Nog, Jake and a man who has represented African American's on Screen in a very positive way Chakotay. The team continues to grow along with many new talents to the Star Trek universe. I'm also very excited to see Jazdia Dax (everyones favorite Trill) now announced possibly member of Section 31?

http://startrekrenegades.com/home/aron-eisenberg-comes-to-star-trek-renegades/ (Nog)
http://startrekrenegades.com/home/renegades-welcomes-trek-alum-melinda-snodgrass/ (Star Trek Writer)
http://startrekrenegades.com/home/cirroc-lofton-is-coming-to-star-trek-renegades/ (Jake)
http://startrekrenegades.com/home/renegades-welcomes-robert-beltran/ (Chakotay)
http://startrekrenegades.com/home/terry-farrell-joins-renegades/ (Jazdia Dax)

Perhaps not Roddenberry's final vision for a different economic model (crowd funding or F2P) but it's allows fans a new way to be a part of a wonderful movement and vision for humanity. I wish them tremendous success as they continue to continue grow and develop more support for their creative teams and artists! Sometimes small things lead to big changes... ...no different than what Cochrane demonstrated in First Contact!

seaofsorrows

azurianstar wrote: »

Syfy already did similarly with Defiant, tieing their TV show with their MMO, and it failed.

Defiance was an entirely new franchise, not the same as having an already huge name like 'Star Trek' associated with it. The fan base is already there, millions will watch just to see if it's any good.

strathkin wrote: »

And yet the list of cast and crew for Star Trek Renegades continues to grow..

It does yes, but did you watch the first episode? I was really looking forward to Renegades but frankly I found the pilot so bad it was bordering on unwatchable.

Renegades serves as a harsh reminder of how badly we need a new Star Trek series.. a real Star Trek series. I applaud their initiative, I really wanted to like it.. but I found it insufferable.

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sheldonlcooper

Captain Worf series is probably a longshot but it's the best chance we have since they turned down Renegades.


Yeah, I watched the Renegades premier in Vegas and I was also disappointed. The idea is O K but it needed about 10 re-writes before they should have presented it to the studio.

mayito2009

What this game is lacking is what STO should be all about, here

Star Trek: The Next Generation, now narrated by Patrick Stewart:

"Space: the final frontier. These are the voyages of the starship Enterprise. Its continuing mission: to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly go where no one has gone before".

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bobbydazlers

although I agree that the stories are very well written for the most part they are hardly suitable for a direct conversion to tv episodes, even after extensive reworking many of the episodes would fail to measure up, having said that in my opinion they suit nicely in a game medium as they are a nice mix of combat, intrigue and adventure to make them fun and rewarding to play through.
there are a few missions that stand out that possibly could qualify as the outline for a tv episode but they would still require a major rewrite to make them tv worthy.

at the end of the day there are far more star trek novels out there that would be much more suited to reworking into a tv episode or even movie then there are episodes in STO.