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Just another generic enemy
gabeoz1
Member Posts: 161 Arc User
With the upcoming release of the Herald Ships, it makes the Iconians feel like a generic enemy. The Iconians are supposed to be an enemy shrouded in mystery with not much known of them. Their ships are advanced and their technology sought after. The release of their ships makes them feel like a generic enemy, and their mysterious nature, gone. It completely ruins the 10 year story arc (TNG included) and the immersion.
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Simply put, being able to fly a ship does squat to remove the mysteries surrounding its host species. Are Tholian intentions any more clear in a post recluse/orbweaver ST franchise? Do the Voth somehow make sense just because a few player captains have GTA'ed their cruisers. No because ship use is a very small part of the overall presentation of an alien faction (I've even made an entire foundry mission which uses that very point to make an enigmatic alien species. You fight them several times through the mission, but where does that leave you? No where, really. It's the writing that counts.)
Monkeys+Monolith=/=Masters of the Universe. You can make contact with the tools, but that doesn't grant you understanding of those who directed them.
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The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
I agree. this box is a huge mistake, like the tholian, voth and undine boxes. I can't imagine to do a stf with a guy who will use a Vonph; this is just ridiculous. Iconians have lost all interest. fortunately, an herald boff is not available.
next box: a tactical cube for everyone; yeah!
money is the only reason to do stupid things. we have a nice example, with this box. when people will understand that they can't have everything, and that a mystery must stay a mystery. if they don't put in game T'ket's revenge, then they must stop to write their blogs and their stories, because they wouldn't follow their own writings.
I appreciate that not all feel that way but that dissension really doesn't mean anything. You don't want more types of ships? You're not obligated to buy them or consider their use by others "canon" to FED/KDF starship crews. You can easily deal with it using your own devices.
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it has nothing to do with me and I don't care about "canon", it is a question of Logic! (loved in star trek), where is the logic? they wrote a story and they are unable to follow it, just because they act like ferengis who run after profits. I understand that they need to make money, but this box is illogical.
Logic as defined by what ought to be in a Star Trek property based on very narrowly defined faction relations (with absolutely no latitude for variant circumstances). In other words: canon, which comes secondary to the real gameplay opportunities of being able to use cool looking, fun ships in a video game. See. any given FED/KDF/ROM starship using Antiproton weapons and non-standard equipment sets. Choice in a video game comes before franchise doctrine (see. half the weapon selection in a typical Sci-fi FPS). You can follow doctrine if you want, but it's not fair to an open and reasonable dialog to complain that others prefer differently (since that's a direct challenge to those individuals' taste, even if your intended complaint is just with a business practice).
BTW, the crew of the Enterprise rocked a Klingon Bird of Prey for an entire movie (the plot of which you should probably say out loud to yourself right now, it might better set your expectations). Gul Dukat also had one for an entire season. Do a word replace and that's the least you have to do to justify any given lock box ship you see in game. You can even get more creative with it (see. Farscape) but there's definitely logic to be had if you want it to be there.
BTW, "You don't understand" is merely short for "you don't understand my particular kind of logic." Explain your idea first. If they still don't get it, let that fact stand for itself. Don't resort to what's effectively an insult (an irrational statement of another's present ability to comprehend your point of view) because that does your point no credit.
BTW, I may seem annoyed by this topic because I am. It was first brought up with the Cardassian lock box. Having to go back to it now is not an encouraging experience. We need to be able to move on from contentious topics, not resurrect them whenever we feel like having a good whine.
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I disagree. Having tools does tell you a lot about the race. Imagine some random race getting hands on a fed ship cracking the main computer..well they now know every culture, every aspect of federation stored in that database. Motives ? well capturing and cracking a ship (considering how well they reverse engineered the lock box ships its feasible they cracked main computer) and voila you got orders, their plans..sure its not long term motives but it does tell you about them, their strategies (aggresive..deffensive....etc.). While you can make the claim that monkeys discovering a monolith wont get much out of it in any way but we are talking about an advanced faction (federation) having contact with equal or more advanced races (like iconians who are nowhere near a master of universe level). So i am pretty sure fed, kling or rom would have something out of it. You also missed the point which is the impact on the player, the enemy has a phaser and you a stick, well that's totally different from a scenario where you also have a phaser, then its just generic for you. The main point that you actualy based your argument about is the inability or no care from cryptic to include any lore or info from the lock box ships (how they got them, what did they found out...) they put out but that doesn't change the perception of the player against iconians now possessing a herald ship fighting them.
Well that's precisely what we hope (very faintly) might happen with the voyager probes. They find them, examine the data we left on board, but for them to interpret that information they still need a common cultural reference point shared through random chance alone. For example, there's a star chart included. Fine, but what else might that abstract set of symbols represent to another species? Are they going to see it as a language, a numerical system, art? Do they even have art. Do they even understand the concept of audible communication well enough to take a record and try to pull sounds from it? There's an anatomical drawing. Well and good. Are we endothermic or exothermic? Tropical or temporate? What's our reproductive rate, our social strategies? These are very important questions in trying to decide "just what kind of people we are" (because they directly affect how our society works) but looking at one of our "space ships" (in a very real way that scientists have actually put thought into) hardly helps answer those critical questions.
Even in the absolute best case scenario (which as far as we know doesn't exist in STO), there's a lot you can't learn just by looking at the devices of another species. You can infer some things, but almost all of them are germane to body mechanics and technological capability. Neither of those are central to the mystery surrounding the Iconians or any other lock box species (or relevant to those complaining about them), nor is this question in general an important one (since I doubt you complained about raiding data stores during the Iconian War as part of established mission plot) except as it permits complaints about off-faction lock box ships to be made again.
Per my previous examples, these ships do not affect the long term characterization of STO factions (especially if you don't want them to.)
That's up to the individual player to decide. If you need extra lore beyond what is already provided by the Lobi exchange it's not difficult to invent yourself (there are also examples from this and other Sci-Fi franchises if you need additional help.) Choosing not to do so then holding someone else (other players, the devs, whoever) accountable is not a constructive approach. You can decide based on what your own preferences are how observed off-faction player ships fit into the game.
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Plus I guess if you want to look at it from a RP'ish standpoint...do you think the Ferengi would sell these ships to use without getting every little piece of Iconian tech out of it they can? We aren't getting a fully powered Herald vessel...we're getting a shell the Ferengi are willing to part with for profit.
Actually, we are. These ships come with the iconian tech. Along with their weapons. Though they might not be as powerful, they will still be very powerful.
Well that's what I think is meant by "not fully powered." They run but maybe not up to original spec (which is definitely a point you can make for the temporal ships too.)
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I will enjoy using their weapons, as I see them as trophies of combat.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
As all enemies in STO cheat to some effect it makes sense that the most current are the best.
An example of the Iconians EPIC cheating is the ECM probe spam: Along with the accompanying spam Lag, if you actually see the probe, it is too late and you now must endure the unrealistic blackout roller coaster it generates. (your ship would have been torn apart by sheer in a realistic IP representation.)
While "respect" isn't the word for these NPC shenanigans, I have to admit they are the best cheaters in game.
Well if you look at it that way then well Starfleet is the most powerful military organization in the galaxy...universe if we ever leave the Milky Way...because Starfleet has the most players and we always succeed at our missions and STFs.
If you look at it that way then Iconian and Herald technology is inferior to our own...since we have been able to wipe out hand fulls of Herald ships single handed...took out their Dreadnoughts with very small numbers.
STO is a MMO like any other so if there are certain things you can't accept then maybe MMO's aren't the games for you...
sorry if you felt insulted, it was not my goal.
I'm not against the fact that we can have lock box ships; I have myself a manasa and a krenim warship. My point is that the Iconians were very special, I'm just sad to see their ships used by the players. like I wrote in an other thread, I couldn't do GGA/GGE with players who will have heralds ships; same thing if cubes or tac cubes were available to the players (for ISA etc).
Iconians lost all their mystery and their magic; they are now also bland than the klingons.
well, I can just say, enjoy your future new stuff.
Hell let's go 1 step further and just bring in the cooperative as a playable faction for pete's sake.
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Why stop there?!?!? Playable dominion!
Agree. THe Iconians were special, their differences made them really stand out. Now they have become like every other enemy.
I know what you're trying to say. I'm just pointing out how you might be able to say it better. If you question the practice you question both those who created it and those who ALSO practice it. You may only be attempting to critique the developers but making an issue of lock box ships can be seen (if someone doesn't appreciate what you're trying to say) as a criticism on them.
Let me illustrate with an example in a different medium. You can create logical arguments for why Range Rovers shouldn't be made. They're big, impractical, and have a significant ecological impact. You can even present those ideas logically to another individual. However doing so in a public forum, in full view of those who own Range Rovers and like Range Rovers, isn't just a matter of providing consumer feedback and finding your preferred state of business. You're going after a demographic now. Whatever your intentions may be (and regardless of them you're still responsible for your actions), you're setting up a much larger debate about the validity of someone else's taste. Don't do that.
If chose to put the faction on a pedestal then any action that treats the Iconians as less than a monolithic symbol (ex. not being made the center of the STO universe from this point on) is going to spoil their mystique. Give an Iconian a single line of dialog and there goes your sense of mystery and wonder. Before that you had wild expectation that you could project anything into. But now? It's just a villain giving dialog in story according to someone else's definite idea for how that should go.
Remaining mysterious is not a good criterion to dictate how a character/group of characters should be handled. I'll even go so far to say that the function of a mystery figure is to gradually stop becoming that. You should expect this sort of thing to happen, as it did happen with the Romulans, V'Ger, Ferengi, Borg, Dominion, Undine, and Xindi throughout Star Trek. Explanations are gradually given such that, even if some details are remain, the overall function of the entity is made comprehensible. Even the Q were eventually given status definable entities operating within a vaguely comprehensible domain by the end of Voyager. Why, despite that being a contradiction on what a Q should be? Because its basic to how humans tell stories.
What I'll say is that setting up the Iconians as "special" and untouchable, and therefore immune to lock boxing, was expectation doomed to fail totally. You might want to remember that in future when becoming attached to the first (and very temporary) reaction to a mystery figure. The unknown may have a thrill, but always understand it eventually goes away.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Seems 'Star Trek' to me. Examples:
- When the Borg first appeared in the TNG episode "Q-Who" they were very mysterious and Worf couldn't find weapons on the ship. Time passed and after a few more encounters (TNG's Best of Both Worlds", Descent", et al.) by the time Star trek Voyager rolled around, they could probably tell where the plumbing was backed up on a Borg cube.
- When the Jem Hadar attack ships first appeared on Star Trek: Deep Space Nine in the episode "The Jem Hdar"; the Galaxy Class U.S.S. Odyssey takes a pounding because it's shields are ineffective against the Jem Hadar ship weapons:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Dyttwwrbdyk#t=121
yet as they continue to encounter them in Seasons 3, 4, and 5; by the time the Dominion War rolls around, Starfleet has shields that are fully effective vs Jem Hadar weaponry.
I could site more examples, but this kind of thing is nothing new, even in fully canon Star Trek series.
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
NPC's will never compete. As thlaylierah says they have to resort to spamming cheese to even survive. From Heralds and debuffs, Tholians and (friggin' annoying) weapon disables, Hirogen and subnuc beams - even Borg back in the day with one shot invisi-torps.
The Herald stuff makes just as little sense. They are supposed to be so advanced as to be almost God-like. We shouldn't be able to just hack their tech abd fly off into the sunset.
At least things like dominion or tal shiar ships are humanoid and could be captured fairly easily.
I don't even understand how CBS can be agree with this nonsense. they don't want to give a T6 connie to those who want this ship, but they are agree to give the Iconian ships at the "I want, I want" players.
However, even having the Heralds just stalemate the player would've made it much more reasonable when the mission script announces they are too powerful and you have to retreat. As opposed to letting you curbstomp the Heralds and then being told you lose because the plot says so.
The only lockbox ships that really stretch credibility are the temporal ships. Because it just seems wildly out of character that the owners of those ships would just leave such anachronistic technology in their own past, even if the ships aren't capable of time-travel anymore.
Well it does make sense to see period alien ships around flying in the ST universe. That's probably why CBS signed off on lock box ships provided the supply can be kept exceedingly low (see. lock box odds.)
If this really bothers you that much just don't assume there's a FED/KDF/ROM captain behind that ship. Insert whatever works for your view of canon. For example, assume there's a Cardassian crew working behind the next Galor class you come across, Voth asylum seekers for a Bulwark, or an Iconian delegation for the upcoming ships and so on. If you take the game as literally as you are these ships then absolutely nothing works from travel time, mission selection, on through available equipment, and least of all the plot (see. how we get to be captain.) You're deciding to making an issue for yourself here for no better reason than to complain, first and foremost (see. what your last post concluded with), about other players.
Again, not a good idea.
The way to think about it is probably like Victorian era engineers trying to maintain a McLaren P1. They might be able to keep it running with highly improvised repair work (which for functional temporal ships you have to assume), but they're not going to keep it anywhere near its peak performance.
That said, Temporal ships also might not be combat focused, so what we get (which is around Defiant or Akira par) could just be doing a lot more with a lot less (and a lot of useless temporal machinery filling the rest of the available space.)
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
True and not because of iconians. But because of Annorax's weapon-ship. When you have a time weapon then everything is irrelevant. And not borg like irrelevant but truly irrelevant.
I still think it was a mistake to put the weapon-ship into the game.