@skollulfr wrote: only exist to separate short sighted sociopaths from their cash.
If not for players who spend real life cash,there is NO game for anyone so before posting such foolish things,stop and think first. You can play this game for free,it just takes time to grind,just like I have for almost 3 years,and have bought several ships,keys and other goodies. If you choose not to spend cash,and won't grind then you will never get anywhere in this game. But calling the people who pay and keep the game running is a mistake...might lead to unfortunate circumstances for all of us.
And admiralkogar,I would support removing afk's for the 9 low level queues,but I'd also like the auto-fail's put back in advanced stf's and some sort of test required to gain access. Advanced/elite are for upper tier players,which anyone playing can acheive just by playing and grinding out reputation and gaining access to a decent fleet. I don't want to deny access for anyone but some standards have to be kept,or else it's unfair to those of us who have taken the needed steps to become a more powerful player.
Ok, I'm following you, but I was wondering what kind of test you had in mind? A tutorial? If so, something a little more intelligent than the difficulty slider thing they give you early on? Any details what sounds good to you?
In all honesty, I really have no good solution to address the problem of under geared and unprepared players entering advanced/elite queues,other than people like you trying to help out "nuggets" as you call them. A tutorial of some kind would certainly be a step in the right direction,but I'm not sure if Cryptic is interested in implementing anything resembling that.
I would say a certain amount of dps would have to be involved,in order just to be able to complete some of the harder stuff. I'm sure I get called an "elitist" now but I could care less about what complete idiots like skollulfr think. When Cryptic re-did the queues(from normal/elite to what we have now) they added so many shield and hull points to the npc's that you have to be able to do damage,or at least be a good crowd control player just to have any impact. That's just a fact,and it doesn't matter what anyone says or thinks. Five 2k dps players in ISA cannot complete the stf successfully,including all optionals. It's just mathematically impossible to do. Any thoughts on the matter from you(admiralkogar) would be welcome,seeing as you're trying to help,which is most appreciated.
To skollulfr:YOU are the toxic element in this game. Your simple minded attacks are just pitiful,and your attitude leaves much to be desired. My grinding was done because I enjoy the game,and wanted to improve my chances to complete elite content. Nowhere did I "complain" about it,and I wouldn't anyway. Any game you play, like this one,have grinding elements involved. That's just part of it. I played LOTRO for several years and the grind was there too,and I did that too,no complaints at all. Apparently you seem to think that just new players are going to keep this game going: if they aren't paying and the cashers leave,there is no game for anyone to play. It requires both groups if it's going to succeed. After reading more of your posts in other threads,you just come off as a bitter, jealous TRIBBLE. If you hate the players and the game that bad, my suggestion is to find something else to play and make this game better just by your absence. I can guarantee you won't be missed.
The elitist egos so evident in this thread is precisely why I have no interest in fleets or stfs and I know I am not alone
Fleets are OK really. (Maybe not all of them ... to be fair)
Elitist egos not so much.
If I just go with my Fed Fleet as an example, we have a lot of generosity and kindness. People leave lock box stuff in the bank all the time, and we let you buy Fleet gear at the second rank from the bottom. It's a small fleet, and we have had a few hiccups, people who leave maybe because we are small, so we are a bit quiet, but the core element is good, and worth having.
We don't talk down to new people, and we don't discourage them if they have problems with content. We teach. We share. We have fun. The message of the day always includes 'have fun'.
Please don't paint all Fleets with the same brush. You only have to be honest, friendly, and show up once in a while to get access in ours.
In all honesty, I really have no good solution to address the problem of under geared and unprepared players entering advanced/elite queues,other than people like you trying to help out "nuggets" as you call them. A tutorial of some kind would certainly be a step in the right direction,but I'm not sure if Cryptic is interested in implementing anything resembling that.
I would say a certain amount of dps would have to be involved,in order just to be able to complete some of the harder stuff. I'm sure I get called an "elitist" now but I could care less about what complete idiots like skollulfr think. When Cryptic re-did the queues(from normal/elite to what we have now) they added so many shield and hull points to the npc's that you have to be able to do damage,or at least be a good crowd control player just to have any impact. That's just a fact,and it doesn't matter what anyone says or thinks. Five 2k dps players in ISA cannot complete the stf successfully,including all optionals. It's just mathematically impossible to do. Any thoughts on the matter from you(admiralkogar) would be welcome,seeing as you're trying to help,which is most appreciated.
I guess I need to think on that. RL had me busy today and will have me tied up for a few more hours. I will be back tonight.
Call me what you will, but even if this game died tomorrow, it really isn't anything but time invested in the name of fun, so no big loss really.
Heck, after actually sinking money into another MMO, played for years, and it finally made changes I did not enjoy, I have never bothered to return EVER!
So, it to was no big loss to me, I had my fun, than I moved on as expected.
But, your idiotic ideas of everything being taught to players like some school, is down right rediculous to say the least, learn or get left behind.
As for this notion of pay 2 win, what exactly are you paying 2 win? Win what? In game rewards faster? A lockbox gamble ship, that isn't even needed? Because I get those fast enough, and it hasn't cost me a single penny out of pocket, only time spent playing.
Your lousy example of an NX-01 ship, is just that, lousy as it doesn't hit upon my statement of a player who is actually you know.....good at games can easily reach a 10k dps and more, with simply freebie stuff, not having to use uber powerful traits/boff skills/gear/ship to accomplish this task!
so what you are saying is, you have no reason to bother posting in this thread, other than to s***post about your own ego.or simply to spite new players out of simple malice. since you are stating your own interaction is to extract your own amusement and everyone else and the game be damned.
about all you are doing in questioning "win what" is attacking the obfuscation cryptic are pulling by not overtly displaying scores.
your stupidity about people good at the game, is your own blithering elitism again. a new player, who just finished enough ofthe story mode to hit the stf content, with neither gear or experience, isnt going to know wtf is going on to do that 10k. if you wherent so self absorbed in your little world of "anyone not up to my standards is an evil leech" you might figure that out.
@skollulfr wrote: only exist to separate short sighted sociopaths from their cash.
If not for players who spend real life cash,there is NO game for anyone so before posting such foolish things,stop and think first. You can play this game for free,it just takes time to grind,just like I have for almost 3 years,and have bought several ships,keys and other goodies. If you choose not to spend cash,and won't grind then you will never get anywhere in this game. But calling the people who pay and keep the game running is a mistake...might lead to unfortunate circumstances for all of us.
And admiralkogar,I would support removing afk's for the 9 low level queues,but I'd also like the auto-fail's put back in advanced stf's and some sort of test required to gain access. Advanced/elite are for upper tier players,which anyone playing can acheive just by playing and grinding out reputation and gaining access to a decent fleet. I don't want to deny access for anyone but some standards have to be kept,or else it's unfair to those of us who have taken the needed steps to become a more powerful player.
reducing the game population to just the whales collapses the population and kills the game as a whole. its well established that the "whale" players leave as soon as their ingame contacts do.
how free to play sustains itself is by ensuring enough new players are coming in to replace the ones that are leaving, and right now in sto, that is not the case.
so, you stop and think, what is the obvious consequence of continually choking off accessibility to new players, just to milk an ever shrinking pool of big spenders?
if you get any other answer than "collapse of the game as a whole", then you are a complete dullard.
you know what established players are doing? masturbating.
they are masturbating all over the game in their own elitist hug-boxes refusing to take part in the pug queues that the new players will be in.
that, or they are going into pug queues with 2 or 3 buddies because their fleet is dying, then slapping low power players with cryptics incompetent afk penalty system.
that, or they are like shallowwraith and just want to feed their ego by declaring anyone not persofming to their standard, as deserving of punishment for not already having had several years of repeating the same dozen vapid mssions hundreds of times each.
as for your complaint about grinding for so long, congratulations, you indulged in habituation systems for their own sake, and are now more interested in protecting your own perceived investment than in fixing the games blatent flaws.
well there is a bit of news for you, those grinds are a barrier to entry for the new players you admit the game needs. who the hell will put up with the toxic nonsense for several years of grinding, just to be able to grind more grind with elitist grinders?
there is no goal in sight in this game, for anyone not already established or able to dedicate hours a day to it.
and there is nothing in that gameplay to make it attractive to anyone not interested in more than mindless habituation. the 'content' is the very definition of stagnant, and exists only to keep players on a treadmill.
and it shows in player activity and in the increasingly dead queues.
How about you go and play some other game, because your obvious load of jabberwocky, isn't doing anyone anything!
You spout nonsense, have nothing of viable use really, and just plainly need not be a part of ANY gaming community in general, because your own ego blindsides you as well.
Call me an elitist all you like, it really isn't going to bother me one bit, all I can say is you and people like you, are what drives the experienced crowd crazy with your lack of in game participation.
I mean heck, you yourself stated you sit and watch youtube TRIBBLE, while active in an STF, you spout TRIBBLE about how this game is dull, repetitive, no end in site, and if it doesn't suite your fancy, you shouldn't have to bother rendering aid to other player(s) in mission.
So, how about doing us all a favor, and go elsewhere if you really are so bored with this game, or are you also to invested in your own ego to actually leave?
This game involves doing dmg, it requires some small amount of dps to succeed or fail!
But nooooo, you encourage not having to do any to succeed, that it shouldn't be involved.
I don't enforce people to play my way, or get going on the highway, the game encourages it as well as enforces it.
Or, are you one of those types that like keeping others who want to succeed quickly, locked down in a mission for an hour or more, while you take your sweet time doing little - nothing?
Or, maybe you are one of those who would prefer to keep others locked down in a mission forever, because you cannot actually deliver enough dmg to even fend off a single enemy!
I don't ask for some in your face scoreboard, to make people look like idiots simply because they don't perform to uber standards, in fact I don't need/want them to perform to uber standards, just perform to what is actually needed to get the job done for everyone that is there effectively!
The elitist egos so evident in this thread is precisely why I have no interest in fleets or stfs and I know I am not alone
You would be suprised, just how actually non-elitist fleets can be, and how many non-elitist player(s) run STFs, but you know....it actually requires be active in one!
the boost to npc hp was done because powercreep had gotten so disgustingly out of hand that it was going to make constitutions capable of doing elite content, when cryptics contract with cbs forbids that from being possible.
i really dont care what you or anyone else thinks of my attitude, the fact that its your perception of my attitude you are focussing on, (especially for a shameless hypocrite who's first post to me was essentially "us stuupid, shuddupp") tells me one thing, you have nothing to say to undermine the points i am making, so are falling back on personal traits to avoid losing face.
your personal enjoyment of any grinding YOU did does not change that demanding 3+ years of grinding to accomplish anything ingame, let alone catch up with the established players power inflation, is a massive barrier to entry that will put players off bothering.
"hey look at this game called sto, you need to play for 3+ years to get where other established players are, and dedicate hours of your time to regurgitating the same stagnant content in order to keep up when you get there. want to play?
its really good, if you are lucky you wont have to deal with loud elitists getting you 2 hour bans for being new. you could even spend hundreds of dollars to buy the traits the established players are boosting their power with but arent p2w"
what a great selling point that is to ANYONE...
The enemy hp is not out of hand, player(s) overcome it quite easily.........Oh, I forget only those who by your own words have years of experience, and not those who can adapt and learn/ask right?
Nothing need be spent on this game out of pocket by a lot of player(s), simply to succeed, but yes someone has to spend RL $, or else the game goes bankrupt.
But, your definition of having to spend RL $, or else they cannot actually get anywhere or play, is absurb to say the least.
Don't like repetitiveness in a game? Than MMO's must not be your kind of game, but others prefer it or else they wouldn't play them!
My attitude, is mainly focused on those who are actually experienced playing, that whine about an afk penalty, when they can avoid it easily if they heaven forbid worthwhile activity!
You got these main types of people in this game, and all fall under any combination, of these categories.
Whale(s) - Freebies - Possible spender(s)
Die-hards - grinder(s) - casual(s)
Experienced - noob(s)
It's the Experienced [insert 2nd category here] [insert 3rd category here], that can be the hugest issue, and IMO tend to be the biggest complainer(s) of the AFK system!!!
The elitist egos so evident in this thread is precisely why I have no interest in fleets or stfs and I know I am not alone
You would be suprised, just how actually non-elitist fleets can be, and how many non-elitist player(s) run STFs, but you know....it actually requires be active in one!
the odds are much higher to run across a child like you with an ego larger than Donald Trump's.. you and your ilk clearly have the concept that this game should be left you just yourselves and casual players have no place in it.. but guess what? if people like me stop playing cryptic's doors close
The elitist egos so evident in this thread is precisely why I have no interest in fleets or stfs and I know I am not alone
You would be suprised, just how actually non-elitist fleets can be, and how many non-elitist player(s) run STFs, but you know....it actually requires be active in one!
the odds are much higher to run across a child like you with an ego larger than Donald Trump's.. you and your ilk clearly have the concept that this game should be left you just yourselves and casual players have no place in it.. but guess what? if people like me stop playing cryptic's doors close
Nothing to do with casual vs players like shadowwraith. Because you can be a casual and do minimum requirements perfromance or high performance and avoid AFK PENALTY.
The problem stems from players who doesn't want to adhere to standards, minimum STF requirements. In more blunt terms, self entitled players.
Casual player is independent term from Players who get AFK PENALTY.
The Same way A new player is an independent term from players who get the AFK PENALTY.
In all honesty, I really have no good solution to address the problem of under geared and unprepared players entering advanced/elite queues,other than people like you trying to help out "nuggets" as you call them. A tutorial of some kind would certainly be a step in the right direction,but I'm not sure if Cryptic is interested in implementing anything resembling that.
I would say a certain amount of dps would have to be involved,in order just to be able to complete some of the harder stuff. I'm sure I get called an "elitist" now but I could care less about what complete idiots like skollulfr think. When Cryptic re-did the queues(from normal/elite to what we have now) they added so many shield and hull points to the npc's that you have to be able to do damage,or at least be a good crowd control player just to have any impact. That's just a fact,and it doesn't matter what anyone says or thinks. Five 2k dps players in ISA cannot complete the stf successfully,including all optionals. It's just mathematically impossible to do. Any thoughts on the matter from you(admiralkogar) would be welcome,seeing as you're trying to help,which is most appreciated.
I guess I need to think on that. RL had me busy today and will have me tied up for a few more hours. I will be back tonight.
Qapla
BTW, thanks for the kind words, and interest.
Here is what I have at this time, and I thank all who helped me hammer this out as far as it has gotten. Material here repeats, is edited from earlier posts and modified to reflect current ideas.
To reduce, if not eliminate false positive afk's and also to reduce possible conflict between all players, I offer these suggestions
Queues that are normal difficulty, that allow toons below level 50 to queue, would have no AFK penalties. All regular existing rewards apply. There would be an extra bonus for the person who scored highest using the existing standard for measurement, (not perfect, but it will probably work) so that 'professional' players can feel they are getting recognition of some kind. This would affect only NINE queues. With the loss of Breach, and Mine Trap, but the addition of two new queues, that still leaves twenty-nine that would be using the current AFK/reward system with no changes (but see test for entry idea below). The numbers are about three to one in favor of queues which do not allow toons bellow level 50, and do not change.
Next; Toons at level 5+ that are matched with toons at higher levels receive passive skill boosts to participation/survival/and dps affecting skills like (but not necessarily restricted to) Starship Weapons training, Starship Hull Repair and Starship Engine Performance. The amount of boost should be like receiving the difference in skill points between the low toon, and the highest toon present. This may be slightly more complex than just giving a dps boost as coldnapalm suggested, but it should help them help the team by staying in the fight better, and longer. Since the game already has some mechanics that provide skill boost, it may not be hard to do this and I believe the high dps crowd could learn to appreciate it.
All queues that require a level 50+ toon to be able to even enter them remain the same. All Advanced and Elite S.T.F.s would remain the same EXCEPT we could add a Test For Entry since shanker666 suggested it may be beneficial.
This would be my version of such a test; First any player upon reaching level 50+ who wishes to do so may still enter a NORMAL difficulty queue for level 50+ as before, but they do not have immediate access to level 50+ Advanced or Elite queues. To access the Advanced, the toon in question must first complete THREE Normal STF 50+, each where the team achieves full completion, and to go from Advanced to Elite they would have to do THREE Advanced the same way. Basically, they would have to 'graduate' to the more difficult levels in STF by actually achieving all goals consistently in the lower difficulties.
As previously stated, the vast majority of PVE content remains the same, and people (elitist or otherwise) playing in level 50+ queues will still have an AFK penalty in the level 50+ games to keep "noobs", and "leeches" at bay. Also they may at any time choose not to go into the nine queues that mix with the lower levels since they do have that option.
Except for the addition of a 'test' to graduate to higher difficulties, changes here really only affect the nine, low level access queues.
The above is my current suggestion.
I posted the past time about fixing the afk system however there are some other related thoughts here also ....
I would like to add an "Exploration Bonus" for players who do not repeat the same queues over and over again. An "Exploration bonus" could be presented as an 'available mission' awarding a basic bonus reward for doing content without repeating it. Basically, the more different queues you enter, before going back to first one you started with, the higher the bonus reward becomes.
For example, if the reward for taking three queue missions in a row without repeating gets you 100 bonus marks, do an additional one, and add 33% marks, Do one more and add 33% marks more. At six without repeating, besides all the rewards that come with every queued mission, the player is at 200% total bonus Marks. At the 7th mission without repeating add 66% of the base, and again, and again, so by mission nine, the bonus is at 400% of the base, or 400 marks for doing many different queues. The tenth one adds 100 bonus marks for 500 marks for trying different queued content, or 'exploring' the game.
The last two post by me, I talked about the afk system, queues, and ways to possibly help the way queues are used in the game.
There has been a lot of other things touching on the AFK penalty, that have been discussed. Here are some thoughts.
There has been discussion of a possible scoreboard. I agree with some others that it may be useful to have a score you can actually look at (besides the 'combat' portion of the chat window), I also agree that being told you did less than half a percent could make you want to rage quit on your first day playing STO. If a 'scoreboard' is used, it should be implemented in a way that doesn't humiliate a new player.
If we DO use a scoreboard, I favor a three step approach.
Step one; Give a rating for each class of ship (Why not? They do it for the Admiralty system) The rating would be an estimate of it's hull and shield healing rates, along with an estimate of it's dps, based on the assumption that it is still running it's default 'white' gear. Call it a WGR for White Gear Rating. Have a number called PGA for Player Gear Average, which compares your output against the WGR, and shows you what your accumulated average score is. A new player should be able to get a PGA that is higher than a WGR, and keep improving it in that class of ship. Good for training, good for ego.
Step two; Show the true score (modified by passive skill boosts from two posts ago) compared to others in a mission. The new player will certainly know they are 'new', and that their ship is not a fancy one, but will have some numbers to look at that are real. Boosted, but real. They will know how they stack up (even boosted) in practical terms. Not quite so good for the ego ... at first.
Also, make viewing or participating in any scoreboard system optional for each player. Give them a choice of on/off with preferences like (I see my score and nobody else does), (I see my score and so does everybody else), (I see my score compared to myself from last mission), (I see my score compared to STO players at my level averaged), or (I see my score compared to ALL STO players averaged), etc. Let the player determine the feedback levels desired. This can be used to avoid the whole thing, and just focus on having fun.
I am neutral on a scoreboard, but there has been much (heated) discussion, and I hope this suggested method serves as a sort of compromise between parties on either side of the topic. My reasons for being neutral to this are based on the dual issues with feedback being a tool that can help, but also a tool that can be brutal if it is to honest. I hope that we can agree that flames are not needed, and that it is alright to at least explore rational methods for providing feedback to the players.
In all honesty, I really have no good solution to address the problem of under geared and unprepared players entering advanced/elite queues,other than people like you trying to help out "nuggets" as you call them. A tutorial of some kind would certainly be a step in the right direction,but I'm not sure if Cryptic is interested in implementing anything resembling that.
I would say a certain amount of dps would have to be involved,in order just to be able to complete some of the harder stuff. I'm sure I get called an "elitist" now but I could care less about what complete idiots like skollulfr think. When Cryptic re-did the queues(from normal/elite to what we have now) they added so many shield and hull points to the npc's that you have to be able to do damage,or at least be a good crowd control player just to have any impact. That's just a fact,and it doesn't matter what anyone says or thinks. Five 2k dps players in ISA cannot complete the stf successfully,including all optionals. It's just mathematically impossible to do. Any thoughts on the matter from you(admiralkogar) would be welcome,seeing as you're trying to help,which is most appreciated.
I guess I need to think on that. RL had me busy today and will have me tied up for a few more hours. I will be back tonight.
Qapla
BTW, thanks for the kind words, and interest.
Here is what I have at this time, and I thank all who helped me hammer this out as far as it has gotten. Material here repeats, is edited from earlier posts and modified to reflect current ideas.
To reduce, if not eliminate false positive afk's and also to reduce possible conflict between all players, I offer these suggestions
Queues that are normal difficulty, that allow toons below level 50 to queue, would have no AFK penalties. All regular existing rewards apply. There would be an extra bonus for the person who scored highest using the existing standard for measurement, (not perfect, but it will probably work) so that 'professional' players can feel they are getting recognition of some kind. This would affect only NINE queues. With the loss of Breach, and Mine Trap, but the addition of two new queues, that still leaves twenty-nine that would be using the current AFK/reward system with no changes (but see test for entry idea below). The numbers are about three to one in favor of queues which do not allow toons bellow level 50, and do not change.
Next; Toons at level 5+ that are matched with toons at higher levels receive passive skill boosts to participation/survival/and dps affecting skills like (but not necessarily restricted to) Starship Weapons training, Starship Hull Repair and Starship Engine Performance. The amount of boost should be like receiving the difference in skill points between the low toon, and the highest toon present. This may be slightly more complex than just giving a dps boost as coldnapalm suggested, but it should help them help the team by staying in the fight better, and longer. Since the game already has some mechanics that provide skill boost, it may not be hard to do this and I believe the high dps crowd could learn to appreciate it.
All queues that require a level 50+ toon to be able to even enter them remain the same. All Advanced and Elite S.T.F.s would remain the same EXCEPT we could add a Test For Entry since shanker666 suggested it may be beneficial.
This would be my version of such a test; First any player upon reaching level 50+ who wishes to do so may still enter a NORMAL difficulty queue for level 50+ as before, but they do not have immediate access to level 50+ Advanced or Elite queues. To access the Advanced, the toon in question must first complete THREE Normal STF 50+, each where the team achieves full completion, and to go from Advanced to Elite they would have to do THREE Advanced the same way. Basically, they would have to 'graduate' to the more difficult levels in STF by actually achieving all goals consistently in the lower difficulties.
As previously stated, the vast majority of PVE content remains the same, and people (elitist or otherwise) playing in level 50+ queues will still have an AFK penalty in the level 50+ games to keep "noobs", and "leeches" at bay. Also they may at any time choose not to go into the nine queues that mix with the lower levels since they do have that option.
Except for the addition of a 'test' to graduate to higher difficulties, changes here really only affect the nine, low level access queues.
The above is my current suggestion.
Qapla
The last few posts I made from the one I'm quoting here, and afterwards, taken together, or in parts, may be useful. I separated them to keep it from being to long, but please consider each, and all of it. The queues, afk penalties, and even reasonable feedback on how any of us are doing, are all part of this. Is there any consensus here?
The elitist egos so evident in this thread is precisely why I have no interest in fleets or stfs and I know I am not alone
You would be suprised, just how actually non-elitist fleets can be, and how many non-elitist player(s) run STFs, but you know....it actually requires be active in one!
the odds are much higher to run across a child like you with an ego larger than Donald Trump's.. you and your ilk clearly have the concept that this game should be left you just yourselves and casual players have no place in it.. but guess what? if people like me stop playing cryptic's doors close
I'm going to have to say I believe in Fleets. Sincerely. We share the good, and mitigate the bad for each other.
The elitist egos so evident in this thread is precisely why I have no interest in fleets or stfs and I know I am not alone
You would be suprised, just how actually non-elitist fleets can be, and how many non-elitist player(s) run STFs, but you know....it actually requires be active in one!
the odds are much higher to run across a child like you with an ego larger than Donald Trump's.. you and your ilk clearly have the concept that this game should be left you just yourselves and casual players have no place in it.. but guess what? if people like me stop playing cryptic's doors close
Nothing to do with casual vs players like shadowwraith. Because you can be a casual and do minimum requirements perfromance or high performance and avoid AFK PENALTY.
The problem stems from players who doesn't want to adhere to standards, minimum STF requirements. In more blunt terms, self entitled players.
Casual player is independent term from Players who get AFK PENALTY.
The Same way A new player is an independent term from players who get the AFK PENALTY.
The elitist egos so evident in this thread is precisely why I have no interest in fleets or stfs and I know I am not alone
You would be suprised, just how actually non-elitist fleets can be, and how many non-elitist player(s) run STFs, but you know....it actually requires be active in one!
the odds are much higher to run across a child like you with an ego larger than Donald Trump's.. you and your ilk clearly have the concept that this game should be left you just yourselves and casual players have no place in it.. but guess what? if people like me stop playing cryptic's doors close
Nothing to do with casual vs players like shadowwraith. Because you can be a casual and do minimum requirements perfromance or high performance and avoid AFK PENALTY.
The problem stems from players who doesn't want to adhere to standards, minimum STF requirements. In more blunt terms, self entitled players.
Casual player is independent term from Players who get AFK PENALTY.
The Same way A new player is an independent term from players who get the AFK PENALTY.
Sometimes two things that are different are also the same.
Qapla
Which doesn't prove all new players and casual players are AFK players. Equating casual and new players to AFK players is total propaganda and non factual.
Because non AFK players can also be casual and new players. The difference between a non AFK player and an AFK player is that one gets AFK, one doesn't. what I suggest solving is players who participate actually achieve a certain standard.
It is is the simple truth, certain players cannot or refuse achieve certain standards. AFK is currently one of those standards. In the absence of AFK penalty, you need to solve inequality of rewards vs effort, and non completion -time completion.
Changing the AFK penalty won't solve anything if players keep insisting to be able to do non standards in A pug. And that is what I am against, players refusing to standards.
if a new or casual player asks me expert pve advice, I will and I do. Or at least point them in the right information. But if you ask me to support leechers in one form or another and let them continue to leech, I won't. And those are different kinds of players separated by effort, acceptance, etc. Not one and the same as you presume.
The problem stems from players who doesn't want to adhere to standards, minimum STF requirements. In more blunt terms, self entitled players.
or, you know, they people who dont know these player enforced requirements are there, and havnt had the game communicate any sort of performance to them.
Putting a scoreboard is a quality of life improvement. It doesn't equate that players will improve. Avoiding AFK penalty is a players choice just like a player insisting to play in level 50 queues while level 9. The game allows you to go but doesn't force you to go.
the boost to npc hp was done because powercreep had gotten so disgustingly out of hand that it was going to make constitutions capable of doing elite content, when cryptics contract with cbs forbids that from being possible.
i really dont care what you or anyone else thinks of my attitude, the fact that its your perception of my attitude you are focussing on, (especially for a shameless hypocrite who's first post to me was essentially "us stuupid, shuddupp") tells me one thing, you have nothing to say to undermine the points i am making, so are falling back on personal traits to avoid losing face.
your personal enjoyment of any grinding YOU did does not change that demanding 3+ years of grinding to accomplish anything ingame, let alone catch up with the established players power inflation, is a massive barrier to entry that will put players off bothering.
"hey look at this game called sto, you need to play for 3+ years to get where other established players are, and dedicate hours of your time to regurgitating the same stagnant content in order to keep up when you get there. want to play?
its really good, if you are lucky you wont have to deal with loud elitists getting you 2 hour bans for being new. you could even spend hundreds of dollars to buy the traits the established players are boosting their power with but arent p2w"
what a great selling point that is to ANYONE...
First off,I said not to post foolish things,never said anything about you being stupid...though I can see now that you're certainly delusional. You seem to think that an influx of new players will revive the game: it doesn't matter how many new players join,the game is going to be what Cryptic has turned it into,a 3d space shooter where damage is what matters. And if those new players are all F2P and not spending RL cash,then no amount of them will matter because without cashers,the game ceases to exist.
Secondly, I never "demanded" that anyone play for 3+ years. That's my personal choice and not subject to your scrutiny because my playing time and style has absolutely no effect on you,or anyone else in the game,for that matter.In all mmo/rpg games there is a certain amount of grinding to be done:re-running raids over and over again to get the best gear,which is only obtainable by random drops,killing a certain amount of enemies to gain titles,accolades etc. Yes,some of the grinding in this game is way too hard,such as leveling up r&d,taking 40 days to tier up a new reputation,among others. Guess what? That's the game as it is and if you don't like it GTFO! I'm tired of your constant mewling and QQ'ing. If all you can say are negative things and personal attacks on people who are genuinely interested in making the game better for everyone,I say again:GTFO!
Contrary to your belief,new players should not be handed things that others have taken the time to EARN. This is the model for all mmo/rpg games:level up to gain access to better gear and harder content. It takes some amount of time to do this,depending on the game. Essentially,you just think you should get all the shiny stuff that others worked/paid for for,just because you're a "special little snowflake". Your posts just go to show that you're even worse than the people you call "elitists" because you're so narrow minded that you can't even see your own hypocrisy. Try going into WOW or one of the other games and try that TRIBBLE. You're going to get slapped down so fast you won't know what hit you.
I'm no elitist and I don't care how people play the game,that's their choice. If people want to buy the stuff that Cryptic puts out,great! It's their money and they can spend it however they please. And that benefits the game overall,because more money to Cryptic means the game keeps running. If you choose not to spend RL cash,that's great also. That will slow you down some,as far as progressing in the game goes,but it doesn't keep you from improving. You CAN get those shiny goodies without spending a dime,it just takes a bit longer. And not 3 years,either. I don't expect every player to be an uber dps'er,I just would like to play the advanced/elite content with people who are ready for it. If I play a normal stf, I have no such expectations and I have no issues with whoever wants to be in them. That's "normal" and I expect the majority of players joining are just that,casual/new players who are trying out the game content. The other queues require certain things,and those things are not player enforced,they are enforced by Cryptic and their decisions as to what the game is going to be. I'm just trying to play the game and be a contributing player to my TEAM, which is what some of the stf's are about. Others focus on pure dps and finishing as quickly as possible. Whatever happened to trying to improve yourself,either ingame or in RL? The "gimme that, I deserve it,just because I'm here" mentality has become oppressive in our society in general and needs to be brought to a screeching halt. If you want something,get off your TRIBBLE and go to work,ingame or in RL.
If you have nothing positive to contribute to this discussion,and can only denigrate others who are trying to come up with ideas to improve gameplay for all players,I say again: GTFO! I'm finished with you and your constant whining and will no longer take any time to argue with you. Any other posts made by you will be immediately ignored(or laughed at). I wish you nothing but the best ingame and in your real life and hope you can find it within yourself to overcome the obvious hatred you harbor towards the game and the STO community in general.
The elitist egos so evident in this thread is precisely why I have no interest in fleets or stfs and I know I am not alone
You would be suprised, just how actually non-elitist fleets can be, and how many non-elitist player(s) run STFs, but you know....it actually requires be active in one!
the odds are much higher to run across a child like you with an ego larger than Donald Trump's.. you and your ilk clearly have the concept that this game should be left you just yourselves and casual players have no place in it.. but guess what? if people like me stop playing cryptic's doors close
Than let it close, if you are so mighty of a whale to carry us all!
It really doesn't bother me, what you or that snowflake skollulfr do as long as it isn't effecting me, or anyone I know!!!
Also, you clearly are blind as well in regards to reading, I never once mentioned casual players cannot play, I stated after becoming experienced they need either perform to the AFK standards, or suffer their earned afk penalty along with the moochers in game!
You can be casual, and still easily avoid this penalty, very easily, so easy in fact it's a wonder how people achieve one when they are experienced playing!
Putting a scoreboard is a quality of life improvement. It doesn't equate that players will improve. Avoiding AFK penalty is a players choice just like a player insisting to play in level 50 queues while level 9. The game allows you to go but doesn't force you to go.
You didn't even look at those questions, or http://sto.gamepedia.com/Main_Page and the other links where I gave you the answers, did you?
Tell me how a level nine toon gets into a queue gated to level 50? If you try, it tells you you can't. Do you have a low level toon? If so, go try to join a level 50 queue. See for yourself. With a low level toon you can't get into ISA.
But you can get into queues intended for level 5+ with your 50th level toon, go ahead, check it out. Just know that you have a good chance of causing a new and caual player to get an afk penalty because you are a neither.
Since you feel everyone should bow to your version of reality, and that others should just get out of your way if you want to queue a level 5-60 mission, then I guess that means the problem lies with you, and your own self entitlement.
Do you go outside? is there a chance that if you do, you might get mugged? Someone might shoot you in the face? Well then don't go outside. Not getting mugged and shot in the face is a 'players' choice. Don't play outside!
That is the essence of your argument, and as long as you hold to this broken idea, I'll have to keep showing you it's broken.
Let me appeal to all posters to look at the suggestions (formed with input from many others, thanks) that I posted earlier.
Short version of suggestions.
* The 29 queues with level 50+ entry (all STFs) remain as they are. Except add a 'test' misson to access higher than 'normal' difficulties.
* The test mission is to successfully run three 50+ type queues at normal, and hit all mission goals, to go to Advanced, etc.
*The 9 queues that allow below level 50+ characters would have no afk penalty. Increase rewards for the top scorer.
* Toons below level 50+ get skill buffs in all passive skills roughly equal to what is needed to match the highest player on a map. this makes them useful, and decreases chance of a false-positive afk penalty.
(Optional)
* Use a scoreboard that takes into account two different measurements, and has optional participation.
* The first score measures what I call WGR and PGA which would show how a player's toon/ship looks vs a baseline standard.
* The second score would show the real numbers of a toon/ship (after the passive score boosting) vs other players.
* The options to participate in a scoreboard can be on/off, show/hide, last mission/community average, and others.
* To increase interest in a wider variety of queues, give an 'exploration' reward that gets larger as long as you don't repeat a queue.
* Exploration rewards scale. Three non-repeats are worth 100 marks, three more +100, three more +200, The tenth gives +100 for 500 marks total.
Selling points;
* Level 50+ have tests for Advanced and Elite participation. Below level 50+ are still out, just as before.
* Players below level 50+ have some queues that are safe to actually play in, without getting punished for it.
* Areas where low and high level toons DO mix will see more positive effects from wide passive skill boosts which help the teams win.
* A scoring system (which you can leave inactive) that looks at a toon/ship in context of the latest missions, and global average.
* A rewarded reason to have 29, level 50+ queues, for those pros who 'quick farm' the high level queues for rewards.
* This argument " I just want to play the freaking game with my kids, without worrying about having any of us blocked."
* This argument " I am a paying customer. I want access to enjoy what I pay for without being forced into professional status."
* This argument " I am a social gamer who likes to queue once in a while, or I used to anyway. I wish it was as fun as it used to be."
* This argument " I can't get new players I bring into this game to stay because they get discouraged and go to more attractive games.
Possible areas of difficulty;
* Scoreboards have mixed to zero appeal, though we are already scored invisibly. Leeches and some OP players may prefer the shadows.
* Nine queues would have no penalty, and be less attractive to players who may want to discourage participation of low dps players.
* The mechanic for passive skill boosts may be more difficult to initiate than anyone expects. So might the 'scoreboard' or 'Exploration'.
* This argument "I am a 'dps god' with my other toon, why does my new one have to test when I know this content inside and out?"
* This argument "Why do I have to jump from one queue to another ten times? That takes time. Just boost all rewards and they will come."
* This argument "Don't change anything, since I'm not affected, I don't care if others are affected, and if they are affected, they deserved it."
* This argument "The community is doomed to die anyway, but as it does, I have the nicest window to watch it happen from."
That is basically where I am in a nutshell at the moment. I hope to get some more feedback from the community.
I like alot of the suggestions,but again we have the problem of Cryptic actually being interested in any of it. As far as a scoreboard, it could be used as a teaching tool or a "shaming" tool because I don't think they would allow many options for review. Probably either use it or don't. There is already a "scoreboard" in use in their game,Neverwinter. I see no reason it couldn't be adapted to STO as well. There are also two 3rd party parsers in use,but I think unless you're well versed in tracking down program files,there might be problems with those too. Both are good,one is for DPS-Metals channels,the other for DPS-Numbers channels.
Also if there is a "test" to graduate to harder content,damage would have to be taken into effect also,since in most instances,dps is what is needed to complete all goals. And that's the rub right there,most players won't like that and would want to continue reaping the rewards from higher level queues,without actually improving themselves. Since the total dumbing down of advanced queues(you get the rewards,no matter what) now anyone can just come in, do as little as possible and still get rewarded for performing poorly. That's why I want the auto-fails put back in,so players(unless they're trolls who just want to TRIBBLE things up for everybody) either have to perform or else they get no rewards. But if a player doesn't do his/her part,thus failing the mission for everyone,that's where the hard feelings come into play.
I want what's best for the game and community as a whole,without anyone feeling left out but people have to realize that certain expectations are to be met when joining an advanced/elite queue. I can post an entire cookie cutter build right here and now,but players have to use those things and also learn about ship positioning,flanking and other things. There is more to it than just gear and most casual players either don't or won't want to learn all those things. Which is fine by me, just stay casual and have a good time being a starship captain. That being said, also allow players like me,who strive to beat the content being put out there should also be allowed to have our fun without being called "elitist" and other not so savory names. That is my idea of fun and I have as much right to enjoy the game my way,as anyone else does to enjoy it theirs.
Again, I give you props for trying to be a voice of reason in the middle of all the name calling and hate between the players, and hopefully,someone at Cryptic sees all this and cares enough about the game, and their job, to find some middle ground for all of us to stand on.
Tell me how a level nine toon gets into a queue gated to level 50? If you try, it tells you you can't. Do you have a low level toon? If so, go try to join a level 50 queue. See for yourself. With a low level toon you can't get into ISA.
I am within around the same level of capability as sarcasmdetector. You will get the idea on how I will avoid AFK doing low level toon at a Normal queue.
Besides if I were a low level toon, I wont force myself to join a level 50+ queue. I am not a self entitled player who is affected by Dunning-Krugger effect. Going in the PuG is not a requirement but an option.
But you can get into queues intended for level 5+ with your 50th level toon, go ahead, check it out.
You are forgetting level 50+ NPC mobs. It is funny that players say Normal queues with level 50 mobs are intended for level 5.
All these queues are intended for level 50+. I dont see any public queue that have all level 5 mobs. It just so happens low lever players can play but not forced to play PuGs.
Just know that you have a good chance of causing a new and caual player to get an afk penalty because you are a neither.
AFK has Nothing to do with casual or new player. Sure a casual or new player or even a veteran can get AFK but getting AFK has nothing to do with be new or casual player. It has more to do with knowledge and application knowledge, Competence and incompetence.
Since you feel everyone should bow to your version of reality, and that others should just get out of your way if you want to queue a level 5-60 mission, then I guess that means the problem lies with you, and your own self entitlement.
Do you go outside? is there a chance that if you do, you might get mugged? Someone might shoot you in the face? Well then don't go outside. Not getting mugged and shot in the face is a 'players' choice. Don't play outside!
That is the essence of your argument, and as long as you hold to this broken idea, I'll have to keep showing you it's broken.
Qapla
Sorry, the reality I live in is what the real world is. Look in the mirror and look at your self created reality.
This is the reality -> This is a leechers complaint thread. In order for you to be continuously affected by AFK Penalty, the player's intent is to remain incompetent or in AFK penalty performance while leeching from other players money/time/sweat.
There is no way for AFK Performance players to contribute significant or finish queues unless carried by other players who perform within standards or more blunt definitions leech. e.g. 200 DPS player vs 40M total NPC mobs with innate heal regeneration greater than their DPS.
I like alot of the suggestions,but again we have the problem of Cryptic actually being interested in any of it. As far as a scoreboard, it could be used as a teaching tool or a "shaming" tool because I don't think they would allow many options for review. Probably either use it or don't. There is already a "scoreboard" in use in their game,Neverwinter. I see no reason it couldn't be adapted to STO as well. There are also two 3rd party parsers in use,but I think unless you're well versed in tracking down program files,there might be problems with those too. Both are good,one is for DPS-Metals channels,the other for DPS-Numbers channels.
Also if there is a "test" to graduate to harder content,damage would have to be taken into effect also,since in most instances,dps is what is needed to complete all goals. And that's the rub right there,most players won't like that and would want to continue reaping the rewards from higher level queues,without actually improving themselves. Since the total dumbing down of advanced queues(you get the rewards,no matter what) now anyone can just come in, do as little as possible and still get rewarded for performing poorly. That's why I want the auto-fails put back in,so players(unless they're trolls who just want to TRIBBLE things up for everybody) either have to perform or else they get no rewards. But if a player doesn't do his/her part,thus failing the mission for everyone,that's where the hard feelings come into play.
I want what's best for the game and community as a whole,without anyone feeling left out but people have to realize that certain expectations are to be met when joining an advanced/elite queue. I can post an entire cookie cutter build right here and now,but players have to use those things and also learn about ship positioning,flanking and other things. There is more to it than just gear and most casual players either don't or won't want to learn all those things. Which is fine by me, just stay casual and have a good time being a starship captain. That being said, also allow players like me,who strive to beat the content being put out there should also be allowed to have our fun without being called "elitist" and other not so savory names. That is my idea of fun and I have as much right to enjoy the game my way,as anyone else does to enjoy it theirs.
Again, I give you props for trying to be a voice of reason in the middle of all the name calling and hate between the players, and hopefully,someone at Cryptic sees all this and cares enough about the game, and their job, to find some middle ground for all of us to stand on.
Middle ground is good.
I could be OK with just doing away with the afk penalty for the lowest nine queues, and a bonus reward for best performer using any metric that made the big players happy. Big player is gonna be a big player, so whatever they like for a bonus since the low dps players will never see it anyway
They get a bone, and so do the less potent dps players. Eveyone has queues that favor them, and their style preference. Some kind of shallow end of the pool exists in 9 queues for the new people, or the relaxed player, and the other 29 queues remain high intensity butcher shops.
You could even make the Advanced and Elite queues have a higher requirement for avoiding the penalty, but rename the stupid thing and call it a low performance penalty to restore truth in advertising. It really has a dishonest label.
about all you have managed to post is hypocracy. for no other 'constructive' motivation than to protect your own percieved investment.
by arguing against minimising barriers to entry, as you are doing you are indeed demanding people grind for 3+ years to catch up to the power-curve in this game.
even when just launched players where given free ships to help them get over the initial barrier to entry caused by the difference in player power, it just so happens that said power difference is now 100'000dps the power difference while the introduction assistance is still only set-up for 3000dps. again, your deliberate ignorance of that is down to your own egotistic drive to protect your own investment(in simple terms "the value of the stuff you acquired"), with absolute lack of concern for the long term viability of the game.
as for gtfo if you have nothing positive to contribute? you have contributed virtually nothing positive to this thread. with most of your posts being excuses for your own selfishness. kogar is the only one in this thread being even nearly consistently positive.
Was gonna just ignore you but couldn't resist feeding the troll one final time. I am not saying people can't play in queues,just not advanced/elite until they are prepared for it. All are welcome in "normal" queues and I would never deny anyone entry into those. So all players still have queues to play in, just not the harder stuff. Again,your narrow mindedness and ego are getting in the way of listening to what I'm saying. Let me be clear once more:
EVERYBODY GETS TO PLAY IN QUEUES, JUST NOT IN ADVANCED/ELITE UNTIL THEY"RE READY!
Stop picking and choosing what I say just to fit your own agenda. There are three tiers(mostly) of queues to play in. What's wrong with expecting people to play at a higher level of competence at the higher level queues? And,again you ignore my other point: all mmo/rpg's are built around the same system. Level up,get better gear and then get harder content. You just can't jump in WOW and join a top level raid without doing the grind to get better gear. If everybody just gets all the good stuff handed to them without learning how to play, what's the point of even playing through the game content? Just let everybody play end game content and have no story or reason for that content?
And as has been posted by others in this thread, you don't have to be an uber dps'er to do advanced queues. 10k dps is enough to do those and it is quite easy to achieve that without spending a freaking penny on any of it. My guess is that you're just a self-absorbed, lazy jackass who isn't willing to put out any effort at all, in your life and in the game, and want to take from others what they rightfully earned by due diligence and hard work.
In the end, it doesn't really matter what you,I or other people in the game think or want. Cryptic/PWE/CBS has shaped the game the way they want it and the ultimate blame lies there. If what they choose to do runs the game into the ground,then so be it and we will all move on to something else. I don't want that to happen any time soon because I enjoy the game and community for the most part, but all things do run their course eventually. The only choices we have are to play the game as it is, or refuse to play and leave the game. For my part, I'll choose to play until the game is gone.
Tell me how a level nine toon gets into a queue gated to level 50? If you try, it tells you you can't. Do you have a low level toon? If so, go try to join a level 50 queue. See for yourself. With a low level toon you can't get into ISA.
I am within around the same level of capability as sarcasmdetector. You will get the idea on how I will avoid AFK doing low level toon at a Normal queue.
Besides if I were a low level toon, I wont force myself to join a level 50+ queue. I am not a self entitled player who is affected by Dunning-Krugger effect. Going in the PuG is not a requirement but an option.
Paxdawn,
I don't know why you don't know this, but yes, a queue that says 'level 5-60' is by definition open to, and designed for levels '5' and up. They are not, as you call them, 'level 50+ queues'. If anyone is displaying an attitude of self entitlement, it is you, because you expect the rest of the community to ignore this in favor of your mistaken argument.
When you are offered the queue at level 3+ it is a valid assignment to take, it provides XP and is the mission that in STO amounts to a (very poor) tutorial for queueing. You can't actually queue till level 5+, but you used to be able to at '3'. Basically, if you ever want to queue, you need to get the hang of it early, and not hang around till level 50+ before trying it. If you want to be good at it by level 50+ then the game does pretty much require you to jump in and do it early.
Also, you seem to think you are immune to the Dunning-Kruger effect. Dunning himself says pretty much everyone is affected by it so you are also. Where you fit in on the scale is a matter of your displayed behavior, modified by culture. So you are getting it at least somewhat wrong every time you reference it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony
A further error (after assuming you are not affected) is that just like many other people who like a snappy put down over a reasoned argument, you are claiming that it says if you are affected, you must be completely incompetent, which is NOT true despite the colorful headlines that publications like to use to draw attention to themselves.
The truth is that research only shows a predominance in any tested population for about 70% to overestimate how competent they actually are compared to others. Often they display some actual competency, just not as much as they thought they had. That means that your Dentist has about a 70% chance of overestimating how good of a Dentist he really is, but he still possesses the basic competence to be a dentist, or he never would have made it into that profession. Dunning uses examples of ordinary or average competency in making his explanations.
David Dunning; " The average detective does not realize the clues he or she neglects. The mediocre doctor is not aware of the diagnostic possibilities or treatments never considered. The run-of-the-mill lawyer fails to recognize the winning legal argument that is out there."
But you can get into queues intended for level 5+ with your 50th level toon, go ahead, check it out.
You are forgetting level 50+ NPC mobs. It is funny that players say Normal queues with level 50 mobs are intended for level 5.
All these queues are intended for level 50+. I dont see any public queue that have all level 5 mobs. It just so happens low lever players can play but not forced to play PuGs.
Public queues will generate about level '5' mob, if only level '5' toons have queued. You with your higher level toon, will throw things into chaos for them if you end up in their queue.
When you join a queue with a high level character, you cause the mobs to increase to match. When you play, you will only see high level mobs, because you generated them, and skewed the power levels for anyone not at your level. A group of low level players will generate lower difficulty mobs, so they are not joining a 'level 50+ public queue' They are joining a public queue available to levels 5-60, and you are (unintentionally?) making it a level 50+ queue by joining it.
Everyone knows that when a higher level toon comes into play, the mobs in nearly any MMO will scale up proportionally, and STO maps are the same! Why don't you know this when everyone else does? This has been happening in online games since the days off 'Diablo' at least, and is common knowledge.
Also, I hope you noticed, ( I did) that there are many examples of evidence showing that these ships at all levels 2+, will spawn in a wide assortment of 'public' queues. Also, out of fairness I must point out that since the mobs are generated to match the highest level, some of these show stats for level 5+ and past 50+ for the same ship type.
Just know that you have a good chance of causing a new and casual player to get an afk penalty because you are a neither.
AFK has Nothing to do with casual or new player. Sure a casual or new player or even a veteran can get AFK but getting AFK has nothing to do with be new or casual player. It has more to do with knowledge and application knowledge, Competence and incompetence.
A new player has no experience, and so has less competence in most areas of play, by rational extension.
A casual player is most likely just trying to have fun, and by rational extension is not trying to make a profession out of it ergo has not wasted potentially limited 'fun' time by doing hours and hours of research on a 'casual' pastime, and so while possiby having some experience, still has less competence in at least some areas of play.
A veteran with several level 60 toons may still want to add a new one. While the new toon is low level, the new toon itself handicaps the practical level of applied competence, and so even the veteran has less effective competence in that situation.
A casual, new, or 'handicapped' veteran is at risk (through no fault of their own) of entering content with one or more other players who are using maxed out, and fully tuned level 60 characters. This has the effect of increasing the disparity in practical competence they experience, increases the difficulty of all mobs due to high level participation, and also therefore has a good chance of increasing the chance of getting afk penalties.
You agree they can get an afk penalty, but then say it has nothing to do with being new, casual, etc. However the logical relationship between effective competence, and being new, casual, or handicapped is so clear it cannot be ignored. None of these players will be doing 160k dps. Your argument here is invalidated. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contradiction
Since you feel everyone should bow to your version of reality, and that others should just get out of your way if you want to queue a level 5-60 mission, then I guess that means the problem lies with you, and your own self entitlement.
Do you go outside? is there a chance that if you do, you might get mugged? Someone might shoot you in the face? Well then don't go outside. Not getting mugged and shot in the face is a 'players' choice. Don't play outside!
That is the essence of your argument, and as long as you hold to this broken idea, I'll have to keep showing you it's broken.
Qapla
Sorry, the reality I live in is what the real world is. Look in the mirror and look at your self created reality.
This is the reality -> This is a leechers complaint thread. In order for you to be continuously affected by AFK Penalty, the player's intent is to remain incompetent or in AFK penalty performance while leeching from other players money/time/sweat.
There is no way for AFK Performance players to contribute significant or finish queues unless carried by other players who perform within standards or more blunt definitions leech. e.g. 200 DPS player vs 40M total NPC mobs with innate heal regeneration greater than their DPS.
That is the reality.
When I look in the mirror I see an old guy who has lived a little, but I'm comfortable in my own skin.
I'm comfortable with the truth, which is that reality just is, with or without our permission. http://www.ahalmaas.com/glossary/objective-reality
I perceive reality like we all do, through a filter, and the wise remember that, and try to compensate for it. Even still I have never met anyone who was a very successful at it. So lets admit it, I have my biases, and you have yours.
Lets cut to the chase. You keep claiming 'this is a leechers complaint thread'. I dispute that, but SO WHAT IF IT IS? You still lose the points you are losing irregardless because the source of the complaint does not matter if THE COMPLAINT IS TRUE AND VALID NONETHELESS! Cheap attacks and insults do not change this objective truth. You have zero chance of proving anyone here against the afk system as it stands is in fact leeching. You can't win that way, not now, not ever. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
I never said I was, or anyone else was continually affected by the AFK penalty. I said it was giving false positives and punishing unfairly. Since you don't have to be afk for it to say you are, then punish you for it, it is illegitimate. It lacks truth in advertising, it harms customers already suffering from sub-par connections for an MMO, and creates hostility through poor implementation.
If I was continually being affected, it does not confirm your argument that I must intend to be incompetent. I may merely have a bad connection, which could be because of where I live combined with the games erratic behavior. Your attempt to justify the aggravation inflicted upon innocent players by the current afk system is an example of this; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victim_blaming
Since I have offered a reason why a person could be receiving an afk penalty without intending to leech, and you haven't given me even an anecdote explaining how you can claim to have ESP, and how you would be able to know what the true intention of that same person is, you will have to do better than that.
Your time/sweat/money is important. I have to agree. By logical extension, so is the time/sweat/money of players who are not you, and who play the game differently from you, even those who may play "less competently" than you. Since people who are new, casual, or handicapped veterans can be afk'd while they are in fact, actually playing, they are not receiving the benefit of time/sweat/money they have spent when this occurs.
You, by causing the game to generate higher level mobs, are costing them in terms of access to the game as customers/subscribers, in terms of the reward for their efforts at whatever competency they possess, and in terms of loss of opportunity to play the same content due to penalties encouraged by your style of play. In short, you are not carrying people as much as you might like to think. You are hurting them more often than you have apparently noticed, and you don't understand enough of the mechanisms that cause this to happen to feel any responsibility for your part in it.
The players at lower levels (who you call afk performance players) can more easily handle mobs that are not generated by 50+ level toons. If you are not there to aggravate things, they should have a good time doing it.
I am not actually trying to blame you for the system, but you are blind to it's failings as far as I can tell, possibly because you are afraid that a change in the status quo would diminish your perceived benefits relative to others. You are part of a in-group, and may feel threatened. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_justification
All I am really trying to change right now is how the afk penalty works in the low level queues (9 of them out of 38 total). These are the only queue maps that can generate the low level mobs for low level toons to queue against. Low level toons cannot enter the other 29 maps which all require level 50+, so it doesn't matter that much.
Two last things.
I don't want to be a jerk to you. We are disagreeing, and some of the language gets a little heated. I am sure if I took a while and went through this again, I would probably wish I had phrased some things in another way. I am committed to this issue, and will be returning to this thread from time to time, to keep it active for as long as required, but I am going to express my desire that we not be enemies in life, even though we are opponents in this current discussion. I would rather you would accept a team invite from me if you saw me in game, as I would from you. No genuinely hard feelings here.
What I said about the Dunning-Kruger effect applying to everyone should not be taken as a slight. But using DK to make a point is almost self defeating. Where ever I see it being quoted most of the time I also see it being abused, as an ad hominem attack. The basic message is many hundreds of years old at least, and all D. and K. really do is put a modern spin on it. I recommend (not an expert, no hubris here) that you look into good old fashioned critical thinking. Knowing about Dunning and Kruger is all well and good, but whether halfwit, or genius, the tools for critical thinking can only make your life better, even if all you do is fiddle with them a little.
Paxdawn,
I don't know why you don't know this, but yes, a queue that says 'level 5-60' is by definition open to, and designed for levels '5' and up. They are not, as you call them, 'level 50+ queues'. If anyone is displaying an attitude of self entitlement, it is you, because you expect the rest of the community to ignore this in favor of your mistaken argument.
What is a level 5 going to do wherein you have level 50 mobs?
In order for a level 5 to go to a PuG, that level 5 must purposely go to that PuG. And someone must give them the wrong information about going to a PuG and skip the Storied Missions.
That level 5 player must also divert away from Storied missions and choose to move away.
The main difference between a storied mission and a PuG is in a PuG, someone can carry you and you reliant to team performance. In a storied mission, especially if one is doing it solo, no one will be carrying that level 5 player nor can that level 5 player rely from someone else doing the lifting for them. By moving away from Storied missions that player, avoids better gears offered by storied missions.
Besides, why are we even debating at level 5 when players shouldnt even spend most their time in level 5 or any low level due to the easeness of going 1-50 in this game.
A new player has no experience, and so has less competence in most areas of play, by rational extension.
It depends on a new player effort and where that new player gets information. Someone giving them wrong advice, including the wrong fundamentals, moving them to PuGs while at level 10 and avoid Storied mission will get that new player frustrated. Vs a new player who breeze thru the game by getting the correct information, correct fundamentals even this player spent less time playing the game than the other new player who got frustrated.
A casual player is most likely just trying to have fun, and by rational extension is not trying to make a profession out of it ergo has not wasted potentially limited 'fun' time by doing hours and hours of research on a 'casual' pastime, and so while possiby having some experience, still has less competence in at least some areas of play.
A high performance player spends less time per STF than an AFK Penalty player. Even a normal/average DPS player spends less time than AFK penalty performance player per STF mission. That is simple math and logic.
It doesnt mean one does minimum requirement one is already a professional. You can say that those who dont get AFK Penalty made more effort, better time management, more common sense, got the correct information. But it doesnt automatically mean those who avoided AFK spends more time anything game related to STO than those who get AFK penalty. Because an AFK penalty player can spend more time than even the ToP DpS player in total game related time played/interacted.
All of us are here to have fun. Sorry, False logic.
A veteran with several level 60 toons may still want to add a new one. While the new toon is low level, the new toon itself handicaps the practical level of applied competence, and so even the veteran has less effective competence in that situation.
A casual, new, or 'handicapped' veteran is at risk (through no fault of their own) of entering content with one or more other players who are using maxed out, and fully tuned level 60 characters. This has the effect of increasing the disparity in practical competence they experience, increases the difficulty of all mobs due to high level participation, and also therefore has a good chance of increasing the chance of getting afk penalties.
You agree they can get an afk penalty, but then say it has nothing to do with being new, casual, etc. However the logical relationship between effective competence, and being new, casual, or handicapped is so clear it cannot be ignored. None of these players will be doing 160k dps. Your argument here is invalidated. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contradiction
Just because one is handicapped/casual/new, it doesnt mean one gets automatically AFKed. Not all players are lazy and/or lacking of common sense. If one gets AFK, one deserves penalty because that is the current mechanic, that is the current standard. Now whether that player likes it or not is a different story.
Gear excuse is a lousy excuse. The pokemon video in General discussion have proven that you can complete ISA with complete common stuff. And if a new player actually did storied missions not advised by some "fake expert" giving incorrect information, bad fundamentals to go leech from a team, they would get better gears from storied mission rewards, becoming well geared, improve their level, create a sense of self reliance.
All players can improve. Difference is information, attitude and effort. The choices that player makes creates that disparity whether have the correct information, how to deal with certain challenges - blame the game for not spoonfeeding them rather than that player finding a way to improve themselves (attitude) and find or ask help for the correct information/fundamentals(effort).
The only time one needs to worry about AFK Penalty is if the intent of the player is to keep on leeching and no improvement.
Comments
Ok, I'm following you, but I was wondering what kind of test you had in mind? A tutorial? If so, something a little more intelligent than the difficulty slider thing they give you early on? Any details what sounds good to you?
Qapla
I would say a certain amount of dps would have to be involved,in order just to be able to complete some of the harder stuff. I'm sure I get called an "elitist" now but I could care less about what complete idiots like skollulfr think. When Cryptic re-did the queues(from normal/elite to what we have now) they added so many shield and hull points to the npc's that you have to be able to do damage,or at least be a good crowd control player just to have any impact. That's just a fact,and it doesn't matter what anyone says or thinks. Five 2k dps players in ISA cannot complete the stf successfully,including all optionals. It's just mathematically impossible to do. Any thoughts on the matter from you(admiralkogar) would be welcome,seeing as you're trying to help,which is most appreciated.
To skollulfr:YOU are the toxic element in this game. Your simple minded attacks are just pitiful,and your attitude leaves much to be desired. My grinding was done because I enjoy the game,and wanted to improve my chances to complete elite content. Nowhere did I "complain" about it,and I wouldn't anyway. Any game you play, like this one,have grinding elements involved. That's just part of it. I played LOTRO for several years and the grind was there too,and I did that too,no complaints at all. Apparently you seem to think that just new players are going to keep this game going: if they aren't paying and the cashers leave,there is no game for anyone to play. It requires both groups if it's going to succeed. After reading more of your posts in other threads,you just come off as a bitter, jealous TRIBBLE. If you hate the players and the game that bad, my suggestion is to find something else to play and make this game better just by your absence. I can guarantee you won't be missed.
Fleets are OK really. (Maybe not all of them ... to be fair)
Elitist egos not so much.
If I just go with my Fed Fleet as an example, we have a lot of generosity and kindness. People leave lock box stuff in the bank all the time, and we let you buy Fleet gear at the second rank from the bottom. It's a small fleet, and we have had a few hiccups, people who leave maybe because we are small, so we are a bit quiet, but the core element is good, and worth having.
We don't talk down to new people, and we don't discourage them if they have problems with content. We teach. We share. We have fun. The message of the day always includes 'have fun'.
Please don't paint all Fleets with the same brush. You only have to be honest, friendly, and show up once in a while to get access in ours.
Qapla
I guess I need to think on that. RL had me busy today and will have me tied up for a few more hours. I will be back tonight.
Qapla
How about you go and play some other game, because your obvious load of jabberwocky, isn't doing anyone anything!
You spout nonsense, have nothing of viable use really, and just plainly need not be a part of ANY gaming community in general, because your own ego blindsides you as well.
Call me an elitist all you like, it really isn't going to bother me one bit, all I can say is you and people like you, are what drives the experienced crowd crazy with your lack of in game participation.
I mean heck, you yourself stated you sit and watch youtube TRIBBLE, while active in an STF, you spout TRIBBLE about how this game is dull, repetitive, no end in site, and if it doesn't suite your fancy, you shouldn't have to bother rendering aid to other player(s) in mission.
So, how about doing us all a favor, and go elsewhere if you really are so bored with this game, or are you also to invested in your own ego to actually leave?
This game involves doing dmg, it requires some small amount of dps to succeed or fail!
But nooooo, you encourage not having to do any to succeed, that it shouldn't be involved.
I don't enforce people to play my way, or get going on the highway, the game encourages it as well as enforces it.
Or, are you one of those types that like keeping others who want to succeed quickly, locked down in a mission for an hour or more, while you take your sweet time doing little - nothing?
Or, maybe you are one of those who would prefer to keep others locked down in a mission forever, because you cannot actually deliver enough dmg to even fend off a single enemy!
I don't ask for some in your face scoreboard, to make people look like idiots simply because they don't perform to uber standards, in fact I don't need/want them to perform to uber standards, just perform to what is actually needed to get the job done for everyone that is there effectively!
You would be suprised, just how actually non-elitist fleets can be, and how many non-elitist player(s) run STFs, but you know....it actually requires be active in one!
The enemy hp is not out of hand, player(s) overcome it quite easily.........Oh, I forget only those who by your own words have years of experience, and not those who can adapt and learn/ask right?
Nothing need be spent on this game out of pocket by a lot of player(s), simply to succeed, but yes someone has to spend RL $, or else the game goes bankrupt.
But, your definition of having to spend RL $, or else they cannot actually get anywhere or play, is absurb to say the least.
Don't like repetitiveness in a game? Than MMO's must not be your kind of game, but others prefer it or else they wouldn't play them!
My attitude, is mainly focused on those who are actually experienced playing, that whine about an afk penalty, when they can avoid it easily if they heaven forbid worthwhile activity!
You got these main types of people in this game, and all fall under any combination, of these categories.
Whale(s) - Freebies - Possible spender(s)
Die-hards - grinder(s) - casual(s)
Experienced - noob(s)
It's the Experienced [insert 2nd category here] [insert 3rd category here], that can be the hugest issue, and IMO tend to be the biggest complainer(s) of the AFK system!!!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Nothing to do with casual vs players like shadowwraith. Because you can be a casual and do minimum requirements perfromance or high performance and avoid AFK PENALTY.
The problem stems from players who doesn't want to adhere to standards, minimum STF requirements. In more blunt terms, self entitled players.
Casual player is independent term from Players who get AFK PENALTY.
The Same way A new player is an independent term from players who get the AFK PENALTY.
Don't equate one to the other.
BTW, thanks for the kind words, and interest.
Here is what I have at this time, and I thank all who helped me hammer this out as far as it has gotten. Material here repeats, is edited from earlier posts and modified to reflect current ideas.
To reduce, if not eliminate false positive afk's and also to reduce possible conflict between all players, I offer these suggestions
Queues that are normal difficulty, that allow toons below level 50 to queue, would have no AFK penalties. All regular existing rewards apply. There would be an extra bonus for the person who scored highest using the existing standard for measurement, (not perfect, but it will probably work) so that 'professional' players can feel they are getting recognition of some kind. This would affect only NINE queues. With the loss of Breach, and Mine Trap, but the addition of two new queues, that still leaves twenty-nine that would be using the current AFK/reward system with no changes (but see test for entry idea below). The numbers are about three to one in favor of queues which do not allow toons bellow level 50, and do not change.
Next; Toons at level 5+ that are matched with toons at higher levels receive passive skill boosts to participation/survival/and dps affecting skills like (but not necessarily restricted to) Starship Weapons training, Starship Hull Repair and Starship Engine Performance. The amount of boost should be like receiving the difference in skill points between the low toon, and the highest toon present. This may be slightly more complex than just giving a dps boost as coldnapalm suggested, but it should help them help the team by staying in the fight better, and longer. Since the game already has some mechanics that provide skill boost, it may not be hard to do this and I believe the high dps crowd could learn to appreciate it.
All queues that require a level 50+ toon to be able to even enter them remain the same. All Advanced and Elite S.T.F.s would remain the same EXCEPT we could add a Test For Entry since shanker666 suggested it may be beneficial.
This would be my version of such a test; First any player upon reaching level 50+ who wishes to do so may still enter a NORMAL difficulty queue for level 50+ as before, but they do not have immediate access to level 50+ Advanced or Elite queues. To access the Advanced, the toon in question must first complete THREE Normal STF 50+, each where the team achieves full completion, and to go from Advanced to Elite they would have to do THREE Advanced the same way. Basically, they would have to 'graduate' to the more difficult levels in STF by actually achieving all goals consistently in the lower difficulties.
As previously stated, the vast majority of PVE content remains the same, and people (elitist or otherwise) playing in level 50+ queues will still have an AFK penalty in the level 50+ games to keep "noobs", and "leeches" at bay. Also they may at any time choose not to go into the nine queues that mix with the lower levels since they do have that option.
Except for the addition of a 'test' to graduate to higher difficulties, changes here really only affect the nine, low level access queues.
The above is my current suggestion.
Qapla
I would like to add an "Exploration Bonus" for players who do not repeat the same queues over and over again. An "Exploration bonus" could be presented as an 'available mission' awarding a basic bonus reward for doing content without repeating it. Basically, the more different queues you enter, before going back to first one you started with, the higher the bonus reward becomes.
For example, if the reward for taking three queue missions in a row without repeating gets you 100 bonus marks, do an additional one, and add 33% marks, Do one more and add 33% marks more. At six without repeating, besides all the rewards that come with every queued mission, the player is at 200% total bonus Marks. At the 7th mission without repeating add 66% of the base, and again, and again, so by mission nine, the bonus is at 400% of the base, or 400 marks for doing many different queues. The tenth one adds 100 bonus marks for 500 marks for trying different queued content, or 'exploring' the game.
More thoughts in the next post.
Qapla
There has been a lot of other things touching on the AFK penalty, that have been discussed. Here are some thoughts.
There has been discussion of a possible scoreboard. I agree with some others that it may be useful to have a score you can actually look at (besides the 'combat' portion of the chat window), I also agree that being told you did less than half a percent could make you want to rage quit on your first day playing STO. If a 'scoreboard' is used, it should be implemented in a way that doesn't humiliate a new player.
If we DO use a scoreboard, I favor a three step approach.
Step one; Give a rating for each class of ship (Why not? They do it for the Admiralty system) The rating would be an estimate of it's hull and shield healing rates, along with an estimate of it's dps, based on the assumption that it is still running it's default 'white' gear. Call it a WGR for White Gear Rating. Have a number called PGA for Player Gear Average, which compares your output against the WGR, and shows you what your accumulated average score is. A new player should be able to get a PGA that is higher than a WGR, and keep improving it in that class of ship. Good for training, good for ego.
Step two; Show the true score (modified by passive skill boosts from two posts ago) compared to others in a mission. The new player will certainly know they are 'new', and that their ship is not a fancy one, but will have some numbers to look at that are real. Boosted, but real. They will know how they stack up (even boosted) in practical terms. Not quite so good for the ego ... at first.
Also, make viewing or participating in any scoreboard system optional for each player. Give them a choice of on/off with preferences like (I see my score and nobody else does), (I see my score and so does everybody else), (I see my score compared to myself from last mission), (I see my score compared to STO players at my level averaged), or (I see my score compared to ALL STO players averaged), etc. Let the player determine the feedback levels desired. This can be used to avoid the whole thing, and just focus on having fun.
I am neutral on a scoreboard, but there has been much (heated) discussion, and I hope this suggested method serves as a sort of compromise between parties on either side of the topic. My reasons for being neutral to this are based on the dual issues with feedback being a tool that can help, but also a tool that can be brutal if it is to honest. I hope that we can agree that flames are not needed, and that it is alright to at least explore rational methods for providing feedback to the players.
I.D.I.C
Qapla
The last few posts I made from the one I'm quoting here, and afterwards, taken together, or in parts, may be useful. I separated them to keep it from being to long, but please consider each, and all of it. The queues, afk penalties, and even reasonable feedback on how any of us are doing, are all part of this. Is there any consensus here?
Qapla
I'm going to have to say I believe in Fleets. Sincerely. We share the good, and mitigate the bad for each other.
Stay well
Qapla
paxdawn,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_fallacy
Sometimes two things that are different are also the same.
Qapla
Which doesn't prove all new players and casual players are AFK players. Equating casual and new players to AFK players is total propaganda and non factual.
Because non AFK players can also be casual and new players. The difference between a non AFK player and an AFK player is that one gets AFK, one doesn't. what I suggest solving is players who participate actually achieve a certain standard.
It is is the simple truth, certain players cannot or refuse achieve certain standards. AFK is currently one of those standards. In the absence of AFK penalty, you need to solve inequality of rewards vs effort, and non completion -time completion.
Changing the AFK penalty won't solve anything if players keep insisting to be able to do non standards in A pug. And that is what I am against, players refusing to standards.
if a new or casual player asks me expert pve advice, I will and I do. Or at least point them in the right information. But if you ask me to support leechers in one form or another and let them continue to leech, I won't. And those are different kinds of players separated by effort, acceptance, etc. Not one and the same as you presume.
Putting a scoreboard is a quality of life improvement. It doesn't equate that players will improve. Avoiding AFK penalty is a players choice just like a player insisting to play in level 50 queues while level 9. The game allows you to go but doesn't force you to go.
First off,I said not to post foolish things,never said anything about you being stupid...though I can see now that you're certainly delusional. You seem to think that an influx of new players will revive the game: it doesn't matter how many new players join,the game is going to be what Cryptic has turned it into,a 3d space shooter where damage is what matters. And if those new players are all F2P and not spending RL cash,then no amount of them will matter because without cashers,the game ceases to exist.
Secondly, I never "demanded" that anyone play for 3+ years. That's my personal choice and not subject to your scrutiny because my playing time and style has absolutely no effect on you,or anyone else in the game,for that matter.In all mmo/rpg games there is a certain amount of grinding to be done:re-running raids over and over again to get the best gear,which is only obtainable by random drops,killing a certain amount of enemies to gain titles,accolades etc. Yes,some of the grinding in this game is way too hard,such as leveling up r&d,taking 40 days to tier up a new reputation,among others. Guess what? That's the game as it is and if you don't like it GTFO! I'm tired of your constant mewling and QQ'ing. If all you can say are negative things and personal attacks on people who are genuinely interested in making the game better for everyone,I say again:GTFO!
Contrary to your belief,new players should not be handed things that others have taken the time to EARN. This is the model for all mmo/rpg games:level up to gain access to better gear and harder content. It takes some amount of time to do this,depending on the game. Essentially,you just think you should get all the shiny stuff that others worked/paid for for,just because you're a "special little snowflake". Your posts just go to show that you're even worse than the people you call "elitists" because you're so narrow minded that you can't even see your own hypocrisy. Try going into WOW or one of the other games and try that TRIBBLE. You're going to get slapped down so fast you won't know what hit you.
I'm no elitist and I don't care how people play the game,that's their choice. If people want to buy the stuff that Cryptic puts out,great! It's their money and they can spend it however they please. And that benefits the game overall,because more money to Cryptic means the game keeps running. If you choose not to spend RL cash,that's great also. That will slow you down some,as far as progressing in the game goes,but it doesn't keep you from improving. You CAN get those shiny goodies without spending a dime,it just takes a bit longer. And not 3 years,either. I don't expect every player to be an uber dps'er,I just would like to play the advanced/elite content with people who are ready for it. If I play a normal stf, I have no such expectations and I have no issues with whoever wants to be in them. That's "normal" and I expect the majority of players joining are just that,casual/new players who are trying out the game content. The other queues require certain things,and those things are not player enforced,they are enforced by Cryptic and their decisions as to what the game is going to be. I'm just trying to play the game and be a contributing player to my TEAM, which is what some of the stf's are about. Others focus on pure dps and finishing as quickly as possible. Whatever happened to trying to improve yourself,either ingame or in RL? The "gimme that, I deserve it,just because I'm here" mentality has become oppressive in our society in general and needs to be brought to a screeching halt. If you want something,get off your TRIBBLE and go to work,ingame or in RL.
If you have nothing positive to contribute to this discussion,and can only denigrate others who are trying to come up with ideas to improve gameplay for all players,I say again: GTFO! I'm finished with you and your constant whining and will no longer take any time to argue with you. Any other posts made by you will be immediately ignored(or laughed at). I wish you nothing but the best ingame and in your real life and hope you can find it within yourself to overcome the obvious hatred you harbor towards the game and the STO community in general.
Than let it close, if you are so mighty of a whale to carry us all!
It really doesn't bother me, what you or that snowflake skollulfr do as long as it isn't effecting me, or anyone I know!!!
Also, you clearly are blind as well in regards to reading, I never once mentioned casual players cannot play, I stated after becoming experienced they need either perform to the AFK standards, or suffer their earned afk penalty along with the moochers in game!
You can be casual, and still easily avoid this penalty, very easily, so easy in fact it's a wonder how people achieve one when they are experienced playing!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
You didn't even look at those questions, or http://sto.gamepedia.com/Main_Page and the other links where I gave you the answers, did you?
Tell me how a level nine toon gets into a queue gated to level 50? If you try, it tells you you can't. Do you have a low level toon? If so, go try to join a level 50 queue. See for yourself. With a low level toon you can't get into ISA.
But you can get into queues intended for level 5+ with your 50th level toon, go ahead, check it out. Just know that you have a good chance of causing a new and caual player to get an afk penalty because you are a neither.
Since you feel everyone should bow to your version of reality, and that others should just get out of your way if you want to queue a level 5-60 mission, then I guess that means the problem lies with you, and your own self entitlement.
Do you go outside? is there a chance that if you do, you might get mugged? Someone might shoot you in the face? Well then don't go outside. Not getting mugged and shot in the face is a 'players' choice. Don't play outside!
That is the essence of your argument, and as long as you hold to this broken idea, I'll have to keep showing you it's broken.
Qapla
Short version of suggestions.
* The 29 queues with level 50+ entry (all STFs) remain as they are. Except add a 'test' misson to access higher than 'normal' difficulties.
* The test mission is to successfully run three 50+ type queues at normal, and hit all mission goals, to go to Advanced, etc.
*The 9 queues that allow below level 50+ characters would have no afk penalty. Increase rewards for the top scorer.
* Toons below level 50+ get skill buffs in all passive skills roughly equal to what is needed to match the highest player on a map. this makes them useful, and decreases chance of a false-positive afk penalty.
(Optional)
* Use a scoreboard that takes into account two different measurements, and has optional participation.
* The first score measures what I call WGR and PGA which would show how a player's toon/ship looks vs a baseline standard.
* The second score would show the real numbers of a toon/ship (after the passive score boosting) vs other players.
* The options to participate in a scoreboard can be on/off, show/hide, last mission/community average, and others.
* To increase interest in a wider variety of queues, give an 'exploration' reward that gets larger as long as you don't repeat a queue.
* Exploration rewards scale. Three non-repeats are worth 100 marks, three more +100, three more +200, The tenth gives +100 for 500 marks total.
Selling points;
* Level 50+ have tests for Advanced and Elite participation. Below level 50+ are still out, just as before.
* Players below level 50+ have some queues that are safe to actually play in, without getting punished for it.
* Areas where low and high level toons DO mix will see more positive effects from wide passive skill boosts which help the teams win.
* A scoring system (which you can leave inactive) that looks at a toon/ship in context of the latest missions, and global average.
* A rewarded reason to have 29, level 50+ queues, for those pros who 'quick farm' the high level queues for rewards.
* This argument " I just want to play the freaking game with my kids, without worrying about having any of us blocked."
* This argument " I am a paying customer. I want access to enjoy what I pay for without being forced into professional status."
* This argument " I am a social gamer who likes to queue once in a while, or I used to anyway. I wish it was as fun as it used to be."
* This argument " I can't get new players I bring into this game to stay because they get discouraged and go to more attractive games.
Possible areas of difficulty;
* Scoreboards have mixed to zero appeal, though we are already scored invisibly. Leeches and some OP players may prefer the shadows.
* Nine queues would have no penalty, and be less attractive to players who may want to discourage participation of low dps players.
* The mechanic for passive skill boosts may be more difficult to initiate than anyone expects. So might the 'scoreboard' or 'Exploration'.
* This argument "I am a 'dps god' with my other toon, why does my new one have to test when I know this content inside and out?"
* This argument "Why do I have to jump from one queue to another ten times? That takes time. Just boost all rewards and they will come."
* This argument "Don't change anything, since I'm not affected, I don't care if others are affected, and if they are affected, they deserved it."
* This argument "The community is doomed to die anyway, but as it does, I have the nicest window to watch it happen from."
That is basically where I am in a nutshell at the moment. I hope to get some more feedback from the community.
Qapla
Also if there is a "test" to graduate to harder content,damage would have to be taken into effect also,since in most instances,dps is what is needed to complete all goals. And that's the rub right there,most players won't like that and would want to continue reaping the rewards from higher level queues,without actually improving themselves. Since the total dumbing down of advanced queues(you get the rewards,no matter what) now anyone can just come in, do as little as possible and still get rewarded for performing poorly. That's why I want the auto-fails put back in,so players(unless they're trolls who just want to TRIBBLE things up for everybody) either have to perform or else they get no rewards. But if a player doesn't do his/her part,thus failing the mission for everyone,that's where the hard feelings come into play.
I want what's best for the game and community as a whole,without anyone feeling left out but people have to realize that certain expectations are to be met when joining an advanced/elite queue. I can post an entire cookie cutter build right here and now,but players have to use those things and also learn about ship positioning,flanking and other things. There is more to it than just gear and most casual players either don't or won't want to learn all those things. Which is fine by me, just stay casual and have a good time being a starship captain. That being said, also allow players like me,who strive to beat the content being put out there should also be allowed to have our fun without being called "elitist" and other not so savory names. That is my idea of fun and I have as much right to enjoy the game my way,as anyone else does to enjoy it theirs.
Again, I give you props for trying to be a voice of reason in the middle of all the name calling and hate between the players, and hopefully,someone at Cryptic sees all this and cares enough about the game, and their job, to find some middle ground for all of us to stand on.
I am within around the same level of capability as sarcasmdetector. You will get the idea on how I will avoid AFK doing low level toon at a Normal queue.
Besides if I were a low level toon, I wont force myself to join a level 50+ queue. I am not a self entitled player who is affected by Dunning-Krugger effect. Going in the PuG is not a requirement but an option.
You are forgetting level 50+ NPC mobs. It is funny that players say Normal queues with level 50 mobs are intended for level 5.
All these queues are intended for level 50+. I dont see any public queue that have all level 5 mobs. It just so happens low lever players can play but not forced to play PuGs.
AFK has Nothing to do with casual or new player. Sure a casual or new player or even a veteran can get AFK but getting AFK has nothing to do with be new or casual player. It has more to do with knowledge and application knowledge, Competence and incompetence.
Sorry, the reality I live in is what the real world is. Look in the mirror and look at your self created reality.
This is the reality -> This is a leechers complaint thread. In order for you to be continuously affected by AFK Penalty, the player's intent is to remain incompetent or in AFK penalty performance while leeching from other players money/time/sweat.
There is no way for AFK Performance players to contribute significant or finish queues unless carried by other players who perform within standards or more blunt definitions leech. e.g. 200 DPS player vs 40M total NPC mobs with innate heal regeneration greater than their DPS.
That is the reality.
Middle ground is good.
I could be OK with just doing away with the afk penalty for the lowest nine queues, and a bonus reward for best performer using any metric that made the big players happy. Big player is gonna be a big player, so whatever they like for a bonus since the low dps players will never see it anyway
They get a bone, and so do the less potent dps players. Eveyone has queues that favor them, and their style preference. Some kind of shallow end of the pool exists in 9 queues for the new people, or the relaxed player, and the other 29 queues remain high intensity butcher shops.
You could even make the Advanced and Elite queues have a higher requirement for avoiding the penalty, but rename the stupid thing and call it a low performance penalty to restore truth in advertising. It really has a dishonest label.
Qapla
Paxdawn,
I don't know why you don't know this, but yes, a queue that says 'level 5-60' is by definition open to, and designed for levels '5' and up. They are not, as you call them, 'level 50+ queues'. If anyone is displaying an attitude of self entitlement, it is you, because you expect the rest of the community to ignore this in favor of your mistaken argument.
When you are offered the queue at level 3+ it is a valid assignment to take, it provides XP and is the mission that in STO amounts to a (very poor) tutorial for queueing. You can't actually queue till level 5+, but you used to be able to at '3'. Basically, if you ever want to queue, you need to get the hang of it early, and not hang around till level 50+ before trying it. If you want to be good at it by level 50+ then the game does pretty much require you to jump in and do it early.
Also, you seem to think you are immune to the Dunning-Kruger effect. Dunning himself says pretty much everyone is affected by it so you are also. Where you fit in on the scale is a matter of your displayed behavior, modified by culture. So you are getting it at least somewhat wrong every time you reference it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony
A further error (after assuming you are not affected) is that just like many other people who like a snappy put down over a reasoned argument, you are claiming that it says if you are affected, you must be completely incompetent, which is NOT true despite the colorful headlines that publications like to use to draw attention to themselves.
The truth is that research only shows a predominance in any tested population for about 70% to overestimate how competent they actually are compared to others. Often they display some actual competency, just not as much as they thought they had. That means that your Dentist has about a 70% chance of overestimating how good of a Dentist he really is, but he still possesses the basic competence to be a dentist, or he never would have made it into that profession. Dunning uses examples of ordinary or average competency in making his explanations.
David Dunning; " The average detective does not realize the clues he or she neglects. The mediocre doctor is not aware of the diagnostic possibilities or treatments never considered. The run-of-the-mill lawyer fails to recognize the winning legal argument that is out there."
While the approximate bottom 70% tested overestimated themselves, the top 30% or so show the Dunning-Kruger effect by underestimating their relative competency, and instead show traits similar but not necessarily that same as found in 'impostor syndrome'. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor_syndrome A graphic showing the DK trends can be seen here. http://www.talyarkoni.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/dunning_kruger.png
So go ahead and tell us how superior you are, and how your not self entitled, or affected by Dunning-Kruger, etc.
Public queues will generate about level '5' mob, if only level '5' toons have queued. You with your higher level toon, will throw things into chaos for them if you end up in their queue.
When you join a queue with a high level character, you cause the mobs to increase to match. When you play, you will only see high level mobs, because you generated them, and skewed the power levels for anyone not at your level. A group of low level players will generate lower difficulty mobs, so they are not joining a 'level 50+ public queue' They are joining a public queue available to levels 5-60, and you are (unintentionally?) making it a level 50+ queue by joining it.
Everyone knows that when a higher level toon comes into play, the mobs in nearly any MMO will scale up proportionally, and STO maps are the same! Why don't you know this when everyone else does? This has been happening in online games since the days off 'Diablo' at least, and is common knowledge.
These links show evidence of ships having level 2+ mob stats;
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Brigand_Cruiser#Hull_strength
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Federation_Escort_(Mob)#Hull_strength
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Federation_Cruiser_(Mob)#Hull_strength
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Federation_Science_Vessel_(Mob)#Hull_strength
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Nebula_Class_Science_Vessel#Hull_strength
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Corsair_Flight-Deck_Cruiser_(Mob)#Hull_strength
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Terran_Escort#Hull_strength
http://sto.gamepedia.com/D'Kora_Class#Hull_Strength
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Mogai_Heavy_Warbird_(Mob)#Hull_strength
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Deferi_Cruiser#Hull_strength
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Tulwar_Dreadnought_Warbird_(Mob)#Hull_strength
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Falchion_Dreadnought_Warbird_(Mob)#Hull_strength
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Terran_Cruiser#Hull_strength
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Terran_Science_Vessel#Hull_strength
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Jem'Hadar_Heavy_Escort#Hull_strength
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Kar'Fi_Battle_Carrier_(Mob)#Hull_Strength
http://sto.gamepedia.com/K'Norr_Escort#Hull_Strength
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Sphere#Hull_strength
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Chel_Grett_Cruiser#Hull_strength
And just to be weird; http://sto.gamepedia.com/Tortured_Soul_(space)#Hull_Strength
Also, I hope you noticed, ( I did) that there are many examples of evidence showing that these ships at all levels 2+, will spawn in a wide assortment of 'public' queues. Also, out of fairness I must point out that since the mobs are generated to match the highest level, some of these show stats for level 5+ and past 50+ for the same ship type.
A new player has no experience, and so has less competence in most areas of play, by rational extension.
A casual player is most likely just trying to have fun, and by rational extension is not trying to make a profession out of it ergo has not wasted potentially limited 'fun' time by doing hours and hours of research on a 'casual' pastime, and so while possiby having some experience, still has less competence in at least some areas of play.
A veteran with several level 60 toons may still want to add a new one. While the new toon is low level, the new toon itself handicaps the practical level of applied competence, and so even the veteran has less effective competence in that situation.
A casual, new, or 'handicapped' veteran is at risk (through no fault of their own) of entering content with one or more other players who are using maxed out, and fully tuned level 60 characters. This has the effect of increasing the disparity in practical competence they experience, increases the difficulty of all mobs due to high level participation, and also therefore has a good chance of increasing the chance of getting afk penalties.
You agree they can get an afk penalty, but then say it has nothing to do with being new, casual, etc. However the logical relationship between effective competence, and being new, casual, or handicapped is so clear it cannot be ignored. None of these players will be doing 160k dps. Your argument here is invalidated. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contradiction
When I look in the mirror I see an old guy who has lived a little, but I'm comfortable in my own skin.
I'm comfortable with the truth, which is that reality just is, with or without our permission. http://www.ahalmaas.com/glossary/objective-reality
I perceive reality like we all do, through a filter, and the wise remember that, and try to compensate for it. Even still I have never met anyone who was a very successful at it. So lets admit it, I have my biases, and you have yours.
Lets cut to the chase. You keep claiming 'this is a leechers complaint thread'. I dispute that, but SO WHAT IF IT IS? You still lose the points you are losing irregardless because the source of the complaint does not matter if THE COMPLAINT IS TRUE AND VALID NONETHELESS! Cheap attacks and insults do not change this objective truth. You have zero chance of proving anyone here against the afk system as it stands is in fact leeching. You can't win that way, not now, not ever. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
I never said I was, or anyone else was continually affected by the AFK penalty. I said it was giving false positives and punishing unfairly. Since you don't have to be afk for it to say you are, then punish you for it, it is illegitimate. It lacks truth in advertising, it harms customers already suffering from sub-par connections for an MMO, and creates hostility through poor implementation.
If I was continually being affected, it does not confirm your argument that I must intend to be incompetent. I may merely have a bad connection, which could be because of where I live combined with the games erratic behavior. Your attempt to justify the aggravation inflicted upon innocent players by the current afk system is an example of this; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victim_blaming
Since I have offered a reason why a person could be receiving an afk penalty without intending to leech, and you haven't given me even an anecdote explaining how you can claim to have ESP, and how you would be able to know what the true intention of that same person is, you will have to do better than that.
Your time/sweat/money is important. I have to agree. By logical extension, so is the time/sweat/money of players who are not you, and who play the game differently from you, even those who may play "less competently" than you. Since people who are new, casual, or handicapped veterans can be afk'd while they are in fact, actually playing, they are not receiving the benefit of time/sweat/money they have spent when this occurs.
You, by causing the game to generate higher level mobs, are costing them in terms of access to the game as customers/subscribers, in terms of the reward for their efforts at whatever competency they possess, and in terms of loss of opportunity to play the same content due to penalties encouraged by your style of play. In short, you are not carrying people as much as you might like to think. You are hurting them more often than you have apparently noticed, and you don't understand enough of the mechanisms that cause this to happen to feel any responsibility for your part in it.
The players at lower levels (who you call afk performance players) can more easily handle mobs that are not generated by 50+ level toons. If you are not there to aggravate things, they should have a good time doing it.
I am not actually trying to blame you for the system, but you are blind to it's failings as far as I can tell, possibly because you are afraid that a change in the status quo would diminish your perceived benefits relative to others. You are part of a in-group, and may feel threatened. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_justification
All I am really trying to change right now is how the afk penalty works in the low level queues (9 of them out of 38 total). These are the only queue maps that can generate the low level mobs for low level toons to queue against. Low level toons cannot enter the other 29 maps which all require level 50+, so it doesn't matter that much.
Two last things.
I don't want to be a jerk to you. We are disagreeing, and some of the language gets a little heated. I am sure if I took a while and went through this again, I would probably wish I had phrased some things in another way. I am committed to this issue, and will be returning to this thread from time to time, to keep it active for as long as required, but I am going to express my desire that we not be enemies in life, even though we are opponents in this current discussion. I would rather you would accept a team invite from me if you saw me in game, as I would from you. No genuinely hard feelings here.
What I said about the Dunning-Kruger effect applying to everyone should not be taken as a slight. But using DK to make a point is almost self defeating. Where ever I see it being quoted most of the time I also see it being abused, as an ad hominem attack. The basic message is many hundreds of years old at least, and all D. and K. really do is put a modern spin on it. I recommend (not an expert, no hubris here) that you look into good old fashioned critical thinking. Knowing about Dunning and Kruger is all well and good, but whether halfwit, or genius, the tools for critical thinking can only make your life better, even if all you do is fiddle with them a little.
Stay well.
Qapla
In order for a level 5 to go to a PuG, that level 5 must purposely go to that PuG. And someone must give them the wrong information about going to a PuG and skip the Storied Missions.
That level 5 player must also divert away from Storied missions and choose to move away.
The main difference between a storied mission and a PuG is in a PuG, someone can carry you and you reliant to team performance. In a storied mission, especially if one is doing it solo, no one will be carrying that level 5 player nor can that level 5 player rely from someone else doing the lifting for them. By moving away from Storied missions that player, avoids better gears offered by storied missions.
Besides, why are we even debating at level 5 when players shouldnt even spend most their time in level 5 or any low level due to the easeness of going 1-50 in this game.
It depends on a new player effort and where that new player gets information. Someone giving them wrong advice, including the wrong fundamentals, moving them to PuGs while at level 10 and avoid Storied mission will get that new player frustrated. Vs a new player who breeze thru the game by getting the correct information, correct fundamentals even this player spent less time playing the game than the other new player who got frustrated.
A high performance player spends less time per STF than an AFK Penalty player. Even a normal/average DPS player spends less time than AFK penalty performance player per STF mission. That is simple math and logic.
It doesnt mean one does minimum requirement one is already a professional. You can say that those who dont get AFK Penalty made more effort, better time management, more common sense, got the correct information. But it doesnt automatically mean those who avoided AFK spends more time anything game related to STO than those who get AFK penalty. Because an AFK penalty player can spend more time than even the ToP DpS player in total game related time played/interacted.
All of us are here to have fun. Sorry, False logic.
Just because one is handicapped/casual/new, it doesnt mean one gets automatically AFKed. Not all players are lazy and/or lacking of common sense. If one gets AFK, one deserves penalty because that is the current mechanic, that is the current standard. Now whether that player likes it or not is a different story.
Gear excuse is a lousy excuse. The pokemon video in General discussion have proven that you can complete ISA with complete common stuff. And if a new player actually did storied missions not advised by some "fake expert" giving incorrect information, bad fundamentals to go leech from a team, they would get better gears from storied mission rewards, becoming well geared, improve their level, create a sense of self reliance.
All players can improve. Difference is information, attitude and effort. The choices that player makes creates that disparity whether have the correct information, how to deal with certain challenges - blame the game for not spoonfeeding them rather than that player finding a way to improve themselves (attitude) and find or ask help for the correct information/fundamentals(effort).
The only time one needs to worry about AFK Penalty is if the intent of the player is to keep on leeching and no improvement.