its almost like sto's player population is collapsing for all the same reasons as innumerable other rpg's over the years...
I don't know that we are reaching a 'collapse point' quite yet, but I do feel like we have a deflation problem. As a 'lifetime subscriber' I want STO to stick around for as long as possible, plus there is a lot of content, foundry missions whatever, that I still have not gotten around to enjoying.
I'm not bored yet.
So besides my sense of obligation to the new players, I also do have a selfish motive, I admit, but I feel I can defend it on the basis that enlightened self interest tends to benefit a group. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlightened_self-interest
Weirdly, the selfishness I have for saving the greater game isn't as universal as I had hoped. Many who enjoy the current afk system seem to come from another direction. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_egoism
When I was in college my Philosophy instructors tended to do broad sweeps covering many thinkers, and many concepts. The last course of that type was interesting enough, but the instructor regretted not having spent more time on ethics, as he felt that area was falling out of favor in modern society. For my part, I think there have been, and always will be ethical struggles.
It seems to me that those most likely to want to keep an AFK penalty, would be best served by staying out of the queues (all 5 out a total of 38) that allow level 5 toons to enter, and by keeping to the remaining (33) queues where level 5's aren't even allowed. That would allow the community to grow, and in turn, a growing community can afford to carry very specialized groups within itself. Just have the presence of mind to not trample through the low level player zones.
In other words, if we all used our best manners, we wouldn't need the penalty, but even if it remained, it would be far less likely to cause all the grief that is is now.
So how about the scoreboard idea? Scale rewards by the % if you like (I'd say round up to 1%, so 1 Fleet mark, and 3 dilithium maybe) and then people would learn to participate, but also see how they were actually doing, so they could see why the low reward.
Is that sounding like a possible answer?
Qapla
That would be TERRIBLE. I mean really, what other then DPS do we have for figuring out contribution %? Hull healed maybe? They can't really measure how much a grav well impacted the match. So with that in mind, that means DPS monsters gets more of the rewards. That means DPS becomes a meh, do it if you wanna to MUST DO IT to get anything. It would certainly make cryptic happy as it would push casual players into a pay up to get all these deeps item, doff, ships, boff, etc etc. But such a system would be the death of STO as it would be the death of the casuals.
Not only that, but let's say I decide to jump into a queue, even a normal one, and someone with a 100k dps ship is also there. I can do 5-6 k against the Starbase near new Romulus. So it takes me say 20 seconds to get my bearings and head to where I need to be. Even before my first torpedo hits the target it's gone because the guy in mommies basement has killed it. So am I a leech? Should I be penalized?.
There needs to be a skill gate no other solution will work
I don't think you understand the true horror of a percentage based reward. Nevermind the leeching aspect. If the reward was percentage based like suggested and you had a decent 20k boat (which can be built up pretty easily). You join a que with 3 100k boats and a sub 10k er. The 100ker will get about 30% of the rewards. You will get about 6% and the 10ker about 3%. vs now, where you all get 20% of the reward. Yeah...this would lead to all sorts of a DPS race.
Actually, my preferred version of a percentage system is different than that. We all tossed around a lot of idea recently, I admit.
My preferred idea is that the top player always gets 100% of the total.
Someone doing 90% of the top gets 90% out of 100% all their very own.
Someone doing 6% of what the top player gets will receive 6% out of 100%
So actually, the reward in your example would be the best three each getting their own 100%, not splitting it at all.
The 20k player gets 20% out of 100% they might have gotten, but not out of anyone else's winnings. They are separate.
The sub 10k er gets 10% or less out of a possible 10% that was available to them had they been a top scorer. Nobody else pays for it.
Each player has their own potential reward of 100%, shared with nobody else, but reduced per that individuals comparative contribution.
Any bonuses for completion may also be reduced, but the top player gets double any team based victory reward for being the most effective.
That is how the % system I kind of liked, might work. Plus I would round up any result to the next whole percentage point so nobody gets zero, unless they contribute exactly zero. Leeches and bots will probably avoid those, and find new ways to aggravate us, but nobody gets punished by more than having a low, or very low reward.
If this sounds better with more explanation, please let us know.
Qapla
That sounds pretty dang bad still. So lets keep with ISA. If you have a 100k player in the que with your 20k boat, instead of getting 760 dil you get 152 dil. You don't think that will push DPSing to new insanity? It will make kemo sell for hundreds of million of EC more then it is now? Push for lock box key sales to get more kemo and the best DPS ships? Like I said, good for cryptic...bad for us.
OK, point taken, but what about averaging time with dps, with healing, so all three are considered?
Make the AFK penalty just equate to "no reward", but don't bar someone from trying to go back and do better, so they can keep learning, find out why no reward, etc.
It shouldnt be just DPS. In CCA, the amount you do heals count as well in terms of avoiding AFK Penalty and winning #1 even if you deal 0 DPS.
The difference between CCA and some of the solutions proposed here is that CCA doesn't penalize lower performing players. It rewards players that performed better. I am for additional rewards based on performance, but against lower rewards for less contribution on level 50+ queues.
A pretty good compromise to the problem of this thread is to remove the AFK penalty for queues open to level 5 players. Instead of getting a 2-hour AFK ban, just give them a message that they did not contribute enough to the team and don't give them the mission rewards. Maybe even add a message that they need to either deal more damage or heal other players more to gain the reward.
this actually sounds reasonable... even if it mean there will be thread asking what that means.
OK, so eliminate the penalty for level 5+ queues, but if you would have gotten the penalty, you get no reward, and a message+explanation of what to try next time (damage+healing). In exchange, and so the big dps ers are more willing to compromise, grant an extra reward for doing the most (or enough more) dps so elite builds get something for both their efforts at making those builds, helping the team, and for being willing to share space with noobs.
The higher entry level queues remain as they are, right? Sounds good to me.
I'm not sure if new threads would be good, or bad, or if it would matter much. I like the idea that people will come looking for answers. If they complain after we fix this, well, they may also complain about Orions who aren't the "correct" color, and we can't expect the forums to be free from all dumb questions, nuisance threads, and purposeful trolling. It's a forum.
How many people here think e30ernest's compromise (open previous quotes) would be acceptable? Not perfect, but acceptable?
I would vote yes.
Qapla
A better explanation why they recieved an AFK penalty I agree is a good idea, as for them learning why a mission failed, need not have such a dramatic explanation.
It is something that is already explained most often, and something people should be learning by paying attention!
You do realize that you have ZERO option of who you end up with when you click on a public queue...right? And it's the GAME that sets up a level 10 player with level 50+ players which then generated level 50 mobs. And the reason they don't have a seperate match maker for 5-9, 10-19, 20-29, 30-39, 40-49 is that there is not enough players to even REMOTELY support this. So basically what you are saying is that it is the NEW player's fault for choosing to PLAY THE FRAKING GAME. So since the GAME causes this situation to happen, what is YOUR solution then? Remove queues until you are level 50? That is a solution...I will grant you that...but not one I would consider to be a GOOD one.
I would agree, that no one below 50, should be able to queue for such missions at all!
There are far better means, for leveling, and shouldn't be of major concern regarding what those pve queues have to offer anyways till lvl50+.
So I tried an experiment of sorts. I figured I was leveling some toons anyway so why not?
I had been curious about how accurate the http://sto.gamepedia.com/Main_Page materials were. I am always a little suspicious that someone hasn't kept something up to date. The toon I selected was just level three, and had received an NPC mission to go to Starbase 24, and queue for Starbase 24 Defense.
I did that, and when I got to SB 24 and looked at the queues there was no F.A. with that exact name, the closest one, and the one that seemed to make the most sense was also the only one that would allow a level three into it. I joined, and was the only one in the queue for long enough to get to level five. By then there were a total of four F.A. queues available. Three space, and one ground, only one, the one I was in, was gated levels 3 to 9, the other three were gated for levels 5 to 60. My queue still only had me in it, but the other queue was one shy, so I switched since part of my goal was to more closely examine the mix of different levels.
I had a small amount of time to click on the other players and get a quick glance at what level they were, and get a look at the ships they had. It was a very mixed group, mostly cruisers, one Sci, and one ship not much better off than mine. My gear was what I had found in game to that point, plus the C-Store T-1 Connie with the blue phasers. Then we got into combat.
The mix was interesting. I was able to stick with the biggest ship pretty well, but there was a huge speed difference whenever full impulse was needed to re-position. Staying close to the big dog (level 40+) worked in any case. I was always close to the action. Everyone was staying tight, and inside the radius for most team abilities, but we didn't hit all the goals for the F.A. We got marks, and some expertise, but not all we might have, if we had accomplished all objectives.
Looking through the chat window afterwards, I noticed that my torpedoes never seemed to get recorded as much as I had hoped. My phasers did, and they were nearly as effective per weapon, as the next guy up, who also had more weapons. There was about a ten to one difference in what I was doing, and the average attack from the Antiproton weapons the two best equipped players were using. Tetryons were next down. The 'Big Dog' seemed to be all beams, and the next down I know used some torps. There were a few times that the map lit up, and multiple enemies died. It may have been kemocite, but to be honest, I missed most of the last seven months, so I don't know. I looked in the chat for kemocite abilities, or insane damage, and didn't see anything more insane than some good torpedo penetrations, and of course, antiprotons in numbers.
That F.A mission didn't satisfy my 'queue' requirement to clear the mission I had from the NPC that lead me here, so I tried the other queue again. I hit level 10 while waiting, and had to re-queue again, but was pleased to see that this particular queue was actually splitting players by level groups of 3-9, 10-19, etc, like it should. Also it took a lot less time to start. I barely had time to switch to a T-2 Exeter Cruiser.
This battle was so much easier to see. There were lots of T-2 ships, about half of them Cruisers, and the shared support was easier to break down. Lots of times one or another ship would go red, but most of the time one of us could help the other. One ship did a lot of healing. I used cruiser commands a few times to draw fire so a ship could get some relief from withering fire. A few of us blew up a few times. In all it was your basic battle, and we got stuff. Nobody was overshadowed by anyone either.
So what I noticed most was that the inviting NPC mission that sends you ti the queues seems to be intended to get you to learn about queues by entering one. Like the game tells you to go to a PVP arena early on. Basically it's the same thing. The description in the mission is a little off, but there is only one mission you can take if you are level three. If you take the mission after level five, you may not catch that there is no ceiling on the other few that come up.
To be continued ... or edited later.
Continuing ...
One of the things I did during the queues was to actually bother with the filters to get a clear idea what my toon could access. Usually I am flying a level 50+ and don't need to worry about it. If I'm teaming in-Fleet, I pick something my current bunch should be able to do well enough. In other cases I usually let others recommend, or if solo, I just go for normal queues with Fleet marks, since Fleet improvement is one of my main focuses.
Fleet marks can't be had in many missions. I noticed that to get Fleet marks for a low level toon you had to pretty much take the queues that allow 5-60, and so risk mixing with much more powerful 'allies'. Not that there were more then four actual choices anyway.
I can see where a player with a high level toon might feel like he had to do most, or from his point of view, all of the work. I never care when I am the highest level, if I have to do more. Quite often I am with a mixed bunch, because my Fleet is a mixed bunch, so I expect to have stragglers, and I expect myself to just deal with it because we are a fleet and a certain ethical standard for inclusion, training and yes FUN, has to be applied.
However in a random group, it seems likely that a high level mob generated by a high level toon, will be very difficult for the whole group, because not all toons are able to be as effective. It will end up that in some cases the high level mob can only be really dealt with by the high level toon(s) and so you can expect some emotions there.
That is where we get quotes like "I had to carry everyone to a win and they don't even appreciate it!" or "I didn't get a maximum reward because of all the fraking noobs!" or " The DPS guys made it so we couldn't do anything by killin' stuf so fast all we did was fly around in circles trying to catch up!" or " I got AFK'd for no reason!"
Or the quote I see most often. "They are ruining it for other players!"
The problem with the last one, is that everyone is saying it, and they are saying it about everyone else who isn't in their club. News flash! We are all in the same club, the STO club. We need to work at accepting our differences in play style, training, natural ability, and goals.
Since we have been talking about AFK's I just want to say again, that I think the current mechanic is responsible for generating a lot of this drama between groups. We should be finding a better way to smooth out the edges between them.
Premature leavers with no justification, ones who just sit there and also just those effing the game for the other players should get a slap on the wrist.
I don't know that we are reaching a 'collapse point' quite yet, but I do feel like we have a deflation problem. As a 'lifetime subscriber' I want STO to stick around for as long as possible, plus there is a lot of content, foundry missions whatever, that I still have not gotten around to enjoying.
well, just about the entire pvp comunity died at one time. the dps channels have been gutted.
logged in yesterday only to see the 'armada chat' was more dead than fleet chat for same time last year.
That sounds pretty dang bad still. So lets keep with ISA. If you have a 100k player in the que with your 20k boat, instead of getting 760 dil you get 152 dil. You don't think that will push DPSing to new insanity? It will make kemo sell for hundreds of million of EC more then it is now? Push for lock box key sales to get more kemo and the best DPS ships? Like I said, good for cryptic...bad for us.
thats because the game is pay to win.
a scoreboard wont change that. it just means cryptic cant pretend otherwise anymore.
wrote:
A better explanation why they recieved an AFK penalty I agree is a good idea, as for them learning why a mission failed, need not have such a dramatic explanation, it is something that is already explained most often and something people should be learning by paying attention!
"hello, you are banned for 2 hours for not having spent 200+ dollars on deliberatly overpowered traits and abilities"
You need not spend a single penny on this game, so the comment about recieving a 2hr. ban simply because you don't spend money, is quite irrelevant!
People can easily exceed 10k dps with simple freebie mkxii gear, nothing out of pocket at all, even using a freebie ship no less!
Premature leavers with no justification, ones who just sit there and also just those effing the game for the other players should get a slap on the wrist.
Maybe you are right sometimes, but there is a gray area
. I would say that someone who has kids may have to leave for reasons having to do with an off screen emergency, and I would hate to aggravate their stress by being overtly negative to them. Sometimes the off screen environment is fine, and sometimes stuff happens unexpectedly.
One of my main Fleet's co-leaders has kids. He is a committed player, and very responsible to the Fleet, and teams he is in, but he is also responsible to his family. He and his wife take turns watching the kids when they each have something they want to do that requires concentration, but kids will surprise you,and all of a sudden, you need both parents.
The game is inclusive, by design, for nearly anyone with a computer and internet, and we need to remember that the world is not only all that WE see but what others see also.
skollulfr, coldnaplam, can we please not get this thread flamed out of action? I appreciate things both of you have said. I do think we could have enough good ideas gathered on this thread to make a difference. Lets slow down a little please?
Just got back from a basically fun, if occasionally disappointing evening of running small scale toons.
First off, whatever gets said about the queues, if you want to play a tiered game level 5-9, 10-19, etc. You can wait all day for the 5-9 to start. I went and did other missions hoping the queue would start, and I was willing to drop what I was doing, and engage if that had happened, and it almost did. I had the notification pop up, and we had five in the queue, (its team 5 to 10) however one or more in the queue failed to engage, so it was aborted. So it was back to four, then three and when I switched toons after going ten levels, it was at 1, which was me, so it died.
My guess is that other players got tired of waiting, or while waiting got involved in something they wanted to finish, or even had to go do real life stuff for a minute and figured they could. Waiting for the 5-9 queue is like watching paint dry. You have to do something else, maybe for hours if you have the option. I won't claim my 'experiments' have proper scientific method, but they do amount to actual in the field observations from the viewpoint of toons so low in level they could hide under a rock.
Story PVE was like falling off a log easy though, except that new KDF and Rom toons are actually slightly more disadvantaged by the bonus Experience. Hold on, let me explain. You know (I hope ...) that the UFP promotes your toon, and gets you access to the next tier of ship as you level, right? You just have to talk to Quinn.
Not so with R.R. and KDF. Someone got the bright idea to link access to new free ships of the appropriate tier, to completion of early story content, so bonus experience points levels both you, and your foes, but not your ship, because you didn't do enough STORY content. The nerfing your enemies are getting goes away. Faster than you can complete the story content needed to keep up with them in material terms.
I had long since gotten enough ships unlocked that I can get what I need in such a case. Due to persistent grinding I'm rich compared to the typical noob going through this week. He has no idea why he doesn't have a Lt Commander ship, at Lt Commander's rank. I'm golden, but the noob is facing harder, and harder opposition because this time the reward is what is punishing him. His ship is stuck inside a story, and he can't get it out! So even easy sailing isn't so easy.
Weirder still, this means that next week there will be a whole new bunch of level 50+ players, who are still noobs inside, who still have no REAL experience, and are still flying KRAP! Welcome to Infected Space noobs! It's going to be interesting.
Now with the level 5-9 queue being dead (or practically so) and the noobs being rushed into levels they aren't really equiped for, I have to wonder. How many will just give up on the 5-9 queue (no Fleet marks anyway) and go to the 5-60 queues? How many will, by virtue of (+)150% experience, skyrocket to levels 40, 50, higher, only to feel like it keeps getting to be less fun? How many will get an undeserved AFK for joining the faster queue, or get an AFK for being a level 50+ noob in a T-2 ship flying "Infected: the Conduit, Advanced"?
Honestly, there is so much messed up here. I am happy to get the bonus week, don't get me wrong, but I know pretty much what to expect. The good, the bad, and the ugly!
Bringing back older lock boxes, right before a key sale, right before an experience point boost that will surely drive interest in higher level C-Store, Lobi, and Lock box ships. Selling more Zen, and keys! A lot of that can be fun, if your not confused by it.
So still focused on the AFK in spite of the rambling above. Getting a better idea about what makes the False Positive more likely to happen. I'll be back.
First off, whatever gets said about the queues, if you want to play a tiered game level 5-9, 10-19, etc. You can wait all day for the 5-9 to start. I went and did other missions hoping the queue would start, and I was willing to drop what I was doing, and engage if that had happened, and it almost did. I had the notification pop up, and we had five in the queue, (its team 5 to 10) however one or more in the queue failed to engage, so it was aborted. So it was back to four, then three and when I switched toons after going ten levels, it was at 1, which was me, so it died.
if ever anyone needed evidence that sto has a problem of not enough new players taking up the game, thats pretty much it.
its just a matter of cause and effect as to what causes barriers to entry, what attracts them in the first place, and what can be done to make increase uptake by reducing barriers to entry.
and all the grinds in the game put in for established players are manifest barriers to entry for new players.
continuing the the current path is a demonstration of an unchecked feedback loop, that if not fixed, will destroy sto.
the afk penalty hitting new players is symptom of this critical failure of accessability.
you can guarantee that many established players will be more interested in short-sightedly protecting they own investment, than in the longevity of the game.
Enlightened Self Interest will save us !
OK, so the lack of anything resembling a viable 'shallow end of the pool' for noobs, combined with a dps escalation that can force a false-positive when Level 5 noobs queue the level 5-60 missions with, y'know, level 60 players in them, seems to be a reason to lok at the AFK penalty, just by itself.
It just occurred to me that a noob may be trying to learn what a queue is even about, and would spend at least some time watching the battle (still pew-pewing the space bar, but maybe les so) if only to learn what may be different from story based content. This would add to the risk of a false-positive penalty.
That sounds pretty dang bad still. So lets keep with ISA. If you have a 100k player in the que with your 20k boat, instead of getting 760 dil you get 152 dil. You don't think that will push DPSing to new insanity? It will make kemo sell for hundreds of million of EC more then it is now? Push for lock box key sales to get more kemo and the best DPS ships? Like I said, good for cryptic...bad for us.
OK, point taken, but what about averaging time with dps, with healing, so all three are considered?
Make the AFK penalty just equate to "no reward", but don't bar someone from trying to go back and do better, so they can keep learning, find out why no reward, etc.
How does that sound?
Qapla
Sounds fine...for the 50+ ques if you want to help the clueless playerbase at that level not get a false AFK penalty. For the 5-60 ones...not so much. Your DPS will still be bad. You healing will be bad as well. The only thing that is helping you at this point would be active time...and if you can't press that space bar fast enough, even that might be a bit low. Weighting the DPS of the lowbies really is the KISS solution I think. As for getting rid of the 2 hour penalty...I am fine for that if you are under 50. Once you start doing the actual ques however, think it should still stay. I think you all are forgotting how bad it was before they started to do this. Yes, there are leechers still...but it's honestly a LOT better then before.
OK, so eliminate the penalty for level 5+ queues OR if the toon is below level 50? Or both? Then, we use some scale to determine effectiveness (whether we use damage+healing+time/3, or weighted dps?) But do we apply the measuring system across all queue content, or only to specific content? If a toon would have gotten the penalty, is there a reward anyway? Or do they get no reward along with a message+explanation of what to try next time?
Do we grant an extra reward for doing the most (or enough more) dps ? Will a larger top reward placate the big dps ers for being willing to share space with noobs.
By 'actual queues' you mean the ones with a gate requiring level 50+. Am I correct? If so, I wouldn't change anything at that level either except maybe (maybe) the possibility of factoring in time, for a time+dps+healing/3 standard. (maybe, and I see your KISS reference as valid)
By level 50 even a noob had to play a bit to get there, so they have more powerful gear, better ships, and have re-spawned a bunch by then, so I feel they are both time invested, and broke in enough to face a possible penalty. They can take the hit better even if it was factually an unfair penalty in some cases, they should know it is a possibility by then, and be braced for it.
A false positive at that point isn't such a shock, and by factoring in time, if we did, then maybe that would take care of 99% of it. We could hope.
I think we are getting closer to a fix that would be better. If we tighten this up we may have a suggestion worth showing to the Devs.
Qapla
So tightening up, these changes are what I have to suggest.
Queues that are normal difficulty, that allow toons below level 50 to queue at all, have no AFK penalties. All existing rewards apply. There would be an extra bonus for the person who scored highest using the existing standard for measurement, (not perfect, but it will probably work) so that 'professional' players can feel happy about this. This would affect only NINE queues. Even with the loss of Breach, and Mine Trap, that leaves twenty-seven that this idea would not change.
Next; Toons at level 5+ that are matched with toons at higher levels receive passive skill boosts to participation/survival/and dps affecting skills like (but not necessarily restricted to) Starship Weapons training, Starship Hull Repair and Starship Engine Performance. The amount of boost should be like receiving the difference in skill points between the low toon, and the highest toon present. This may be slightly more complex than just giving a dps boost as coldnapalm suggested, but it should help them help the team by staying in the fight better, and longer. Since the game already has some mechanics that provide skill boost, it may not be hard to do this at all.
All queues that require level 50+ to enter them remain the same. All Advanced and Elite S.T.F.s would remain the same. The vast majority of PVE content remains the same, and people playing in level 50+ queues will still have an AFK penalty to keep noobs, and leeches at bay.
Again, changes here really only affect the nine, low level access queues.
A compromise would be just to leave all of it as it is, except for just those nine queues, where we would ditch the penalty entirely. I don't like it as well because this compromise shifts the burden (glory) of achieving any wins that much more squarely onto the higher level toons, and would be less fun for everyone, including the noobs.
OK, so who is still here? What do you think? What would Leonard Nimoy do?
As importantly, how would Leonard Nimoy post?
Qapla
P.S. I wish there was a reward for NOT doing the same missions over and over again. If you did three different in a row, you might get +30%. That might encourage people to try more varied content in the 50+ queues. It is also a way to prevent things like the loss of Mine Trap. Just a thought, since we are also talking about queues.
if they had any clue they would do it the same way as world of tanks mastery system.
that bases its rating on the performance of other players in that tank over the last 7 days.
why sto doesnt do it ship by ship when they are deliberately selling ships they know to be game crushing, strikes me as blinkered to the point it cant be accidental. negligent maybe. but not accidental.
I doubt they would switch to WoT system, but they may make the adjustments I mentioned in the prior post, if we get enough people to get behind even that much.
This game is SOOOOO not pay to win. I'm sorry, but if you think this game is P2W, you really should just stop playing MMOs right now.
And 200+ dollars so you can do 3k DPS (what you need to not get the AFK penalty in general)? Man you suck at this game. There is only so much gear can help stupid. Maybe you should work on the stupid part before spending 200 bucks...but then again I suppose if you could figure that part out, you wouldn't be stupid.
you think just because there is no scoreboard to rub it in your face that the gameplay isnt pay-to-win?
or is this just your way of living in some delusion about abilities like kemo or traits like reciprocity not existing?
just to name a few of the more recent brokenly op things that only exist to separate short sighted sociopaths from their cash.
you really are such an easy mark, that some blatantly simple obfuscation is all it takes to keep you clucking away. as the game goes to TRIBBLE around you due to those who have invested having 4 orders of magnitude power advantage over those who havent.
well, a fool and their money are easily seperated.
i wonder just how dead this years winter event will be thanks to short sighted egotists like yourself who cant figure out basic causality on player retention.
You need not spend a single penny on this game, so the comment about recieving a 2hr. ban simply because you don't spend money, is quite irrelevant!
People can easily exceed 10k dps with simple freebie mkxii gear, nothing out of pocket at all, even using a freebie ship no less!
20k dps nx-01s are possible. your comparison holds no water for general application. nor does it address new players no longer sticking with the game.
if your goal is to kill off sto with your arguments, by all means, keep at it. you are doing a fine job.
Who said anything about a 20k dps nx-01? I said it is very easy to achieve higher than 10k dps with freebies + freebie ships, the nx-01 isn't a freaking freebie, and shows how little you even pay attention to what is written in this forum!
Also, what does any of what you just commented on, have any inkling in regards to new players sticking around? It doesn't!!!
Your scoreboard load of TRIBBLE, is just that, a load of TRIBBLE!
You want a scoreboard, to not only make those who cannot do well see it in plain english telling them they suck, but to show who is actually doing well giving the bad performers, some sort of false hope in believing all they need is what that player(s) has? It doesn't work that way, one player will always out perform another given the exact same stuff, if those who perform badly were given the toys, their performace with those toys will still show they perform poorly compared to a good performer!
You sound like some bad player, who just wants it all handed to them, on some golden platter!
This game is SOOOOO not pay to win. I'm sorry, but if you think this game is P2W, you really should just stop playing MMOs right now.
And 200+ dollars so you can do 3k DPS (what you need to not get the AFK penalty in general)? Man you suck at this game. There is only so much gear can help stupid. Maybe you should work on the stupid part before spending 200 bucks...but then again I suppose if you could figure that part out, you wouldn't be stupid.
you think just because there is no scoreboard to rub it in your face that the gameplay isnt pay-to-win?
or is this just your way of living in some delusion about abilities like kemo or traits like reciprocity not existing?
just to name a few of the more recent brokenly op things that only exist to separate short sighted sociopaths from their cash.
you really are such an easy mark, that some blatantly simple obfuscation is all it takes to keep you clucking away. as the game goes to TRIBBLE around you due to those who have invested having 4 orders of magnitude power advantage over those who havent.
well, a fool and their money are easily seperated.
i wonder just how dead this years winter event will be thanks to short sighted egotists like yourself who cant figure out basic causality on player retention.
You need not spend a single penny on this game, so the comment about recieving a 2hr. ban simply because you don't spend money, is quite irrelevant!
People can easily exceed 10k dps with simple freebie mkxii gear, nothing out of pocket at all, even using a freebie ship no less!
20k dps nx-01s are possible. your comparison holds no water for general application. nor does it address new players no longer sticking with the game.
if your goal is to kill off sto with your arguments, by all means, keep at it. you are doing a fine job.
Who said anything about a 20k dps nx-01? I said it is very easy to achieve higher than 10k dps with freebies + freebie ships, the nx-01 isn't a freaking freebie, and shows how little you even pay attention to what is written in this forum!
Also, what does any of what you just commented on, have any inkling in regards to new players sticking around? It doesn't!!!
Your scoreboard load of TRIBBLE, is just that, a load of TRIBBLE!
You want a scoreboard, to not only make those who cannot do well see it in plain english telling them they suck, but to show who is actually doing well giving the bad performers, some sort of false hope in believing all they need is what that player(s) has? It doesn't work that way, one player will always out perform another given the exact same stuff, if those who perform badly were given the toys, their performace with those toys will still show they perform poorly compared to a good performer!
You sound like some bad player, who just wants it all handed to them, on some golden platter!
Than whines when it doesn't happen!!!
I have to say I am neutral about a scoreboard, however they do keep score in game somehow, and I can see where being able to select and open the scores 'they' use to measure us might be helpful to those who want that information. All I am saying is it might be a good, but entirely optional thing. However I can also see where having a lousy score shoved into your face could be upsetting. We don't want to humiliate new players either, even if feedback could help.
If we take the latest suggestion I was recommending a few posts back, as a starting point, but we also made scores accessible to the players at their option (not in your face, but tucked away in a menu to be accessed after/between battles), and did this for high, and low level toons, there would be measured feedback.
Honest feedback can be brutal, but no feedback can also be cruel, since it doesn't relate a result (like AFK) to a specific effect (like low DPS). Giving each ship a 'white gear' dps rating in it's stat block might help, so players have more to look at. Scores could be related more to the 'White gear rating' (wgr?) when deciding how well you really did. A stat blocked wgr would require almost no record keeping, and still give a benchmark for how wel you just did.
Also, since any player can get green, or better for weapons, and consoles as they go, it should be easy to rate above, rather than below that in general use. If you show both scores (what you did raw, versus how you did in terms of wgr) you know where you were on the power scale, but also where you were based on a standard for the ship.
Again, neutral about a scoreboard. I'm just trying to be fair in considering options. All I really care about is making things friendly for new toons, and not overtly punishing anyone who doesn't legitimately deserve it.
If some version of score tracking would help, why not have a little bit? If it couldn't possibly help, then why add it? If we do add it, we don't have to make the trumpets blare and set of fireworks, it can be subtley accessible, and just show you enough to help you adjust.
Just sharing thoughts. Not taking a side on that, but I will try to help smooth out rough spots in any further suggestions that get discussed along those lines, in the hopes it will lead us back to the "penalty" concerns and the best fix for those.
However, thinking about a wgr for a ship's stat block, and the WoT system, maybe instead of tracking all those averages, they could just look at your wgr, instead of one% of the total team output, before issueing an afk? With a buffer for travel/repositioning times you could get a pretty fair idea if someone was doing something.
It would not cure the disconnects, and other miscellaneous. I still like what I said six posts (?) ago, as far as the lowest nine queues. Anyway, take care.
I doubt they would switch to WoT system, but they may make the adjustments I mentioned in the prior post, if we get enough people to get behind even that much.
How about it?
Qapla
heck if i know. but unless they actually desire to kill off their own game, they will realise they need to make some drastic changes.
Who said anything about a 20k dps nx-01? I said it is very easy to achieve higher than 10k dps with freebies + freebie ships, the nx-01 isn't a freaking freebie, and shows how little you even pay attention to what is written in this forum!
Also, what does any of what you just commented on, have any inkling in regards to new players sticking around? It doesn't!!!
Your scoreboard load of TRIBBLE, is just that, a load of TRIBBLE!
You want a scoreboard, to not only make those who cannot do well see it in plain english telling them they suck, but to show who is actually doing well giving the bad performers, some sort of false hope in believing all they need is what that player(s) has? It doesn't work that way, one player will always out perform another given the exact same stuff, if those who perform badly were given the toys, their performace with those toys will still show they perform poorly compared to a good performer!
You sound like some bad player, who just wants it all handed to them, on some golden platter!
Than whines when it doesn't happen!!!
looks like captial ego is out to swing his limp e-peen again.
you made a very vague weasel argument about how its oh so easy for people to do 10dps with mk12 gear. i game a several months old specific example of this process taken to its extreme.
this matters to new players sticking around because if they see 4 years of grinding to do, simply to repeat the same few missions hundreds of times, why bother? and that is just one example.
another is your disgusting elitist, detached from reality attitude, of demanding players to already have the knowledge of content they havnt played to live up to your performance demands, or gtfo.
surprisingly enough, your whine about the oh so terrible effects of a scorebord, is one i have only ever heard from rpg players.
not one i have heard from players in any other genre of game that has had scoreboards for decades.
though you do bring up one point, about wanting everything handed to me on a platter. what exactly would these things be that are getting handed to me?
please do list each of the pay-to-win overpowered items that go on this nebulous list of yours, of items you obviously covet, and i detest as manifestations of cryptics selling of power.
congratulations on being one of the those i referenced earlier as established players that will be more interested in short-sightedly protecting they own investment, than in the longevity of the game.
do you even realise you arent even being rational at this point?
accusing me of somehow being a terrible player who just wants everything handed to them, when if this was the case, i wouild be consistantly bottom of the scoreboard getting nothing.
yet its me asking for scorboard based rewards.
those are two mutually excluding points. pick one or the other.
Call me what you will, but even if this game died tomorrow, it really isn't anything but time invested in the name of fun, so no big loss really.
Heck, after actually sinking money into another MMO, played for years, and it finally made changes I did not enjoy, I have never bothered to return EVER!
So, it to was no big loss to me, I had my fun, than I moved on as expected.
But, your idiotic ideas of everything being taught to players like some school, is down right rediculous to say the least, learn or get left behind.
As for this notion of pay 2 win, what exactly are you paying 2 win? Win what? In game rewards faster? A lockbox gamble ship, that isn't even needed? Because I get those fast enough, and it hasn't cost me a single penny out of pocket, only time spent playing.
Your lousy example of an NX-01 ship, is just that, lousy as it doesn't hit upon my statement of a player who is actually you know.....good at games can easily reach a 10k dps and more, with simply freebie stuff, not having to use uber powerful traits/boff skills/gear/ship to accomplish this task!
@skollulfr wrote: only exist to separate short sighted sociopaths from their cash.
If not for players who spend real life cash,there is NO game for anyone so before posting such foolish things,stop and think first. You can play this game for free,it just takes time to grind,just like I have for almost 3 years,and have bought several ships,keys and other goodies. If you choose not to spend cash,and won't grind then you will never get anywhere in this game. But calling the people who pay and keep the game running is a mistake...might lead to unfortunate circumstances for all of us.
And admiralkogar,I would support removing afk's for the 9 low level queues,but I'd also like the auto-fail's put back in advanced stf's and some sort of test required to gain access. Advanced/elite are for upper tier players,which anyone playing can acheive just by playing and grinding out reputation and gaining access to a decent fleet. I don't want to deny access for anyone but some standards have to be kept,or else it's unfair to those of us who have taken the needed steps to become a more powerful player.
I said nothing about choking off anything to anyone in the game. In fact,I'm for taking out the afk penalty for the 9 low level queues. But why should I,after grinding my TRIBBLE$ off for almost 3 years,be penalized by unprepared players coming into advanced/elite content? I have no issues with ANYONE playing on normal queues,whether they're 2k dps or 200k dps. My problem lies within some of the community that just flat out refuse to try to get better and then expect dps'ers to carry the load so they can get the reward,then come in the forums and whine about dps'ers.
If a player is honestly trying to learn how to play,then I'm all for them and I'd be glad to offer some advice as far as simple builds,how to play certain queues,etc. I'm all for new players,you're right,we need them,but you can't just give them everything right off the bat. They won't know how to use it,and most won't bother. We do need new players,but we need ones who are gonna stick with the game and show some interest in learning how to play.
Just taking out afk penalties isn't the whole answer though. Without established players lending a helping hand or encouraging the new players to learn,we lose. Yes,there are people in the game who act like idiots,but I've seen that from well established players and new players alike. That exists in every online game ever made and unfortunately,I see no end in sight.
We also need the cashers,and calling them names isn't going to help their attitudes either. If you don't get that, then YOU are the dullard.
Comments
I don't know that we are reaching a 'collapse point' quite yet, but I do feel like we have a deflation problem. As a 'lifetime subscriber' I want STO to stick around for as long as possible, plus there is a lot of content, foundry missions whatever, that I still have not gotten around to enjoying.
I'm not bored yet.
So besides my sense of obligation to the new players, I also do have a selfish motive, I admit, but I feel I can defend it on the basis that enlightened self interest tends to benefit a group. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlightened_self-interest
Weirdly, the selfishness I have for saving the greater game isn't as universal as I had hoped. Many who enjoy the current afk system seem to come from another direction. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_egoism
When I was in college my Philosophy instructors tended to do broad sweeps covering many thinkers, and many concepts. The last course of that type was interesting enough, but the instructor regretted not having spent more time on ethics, as he felt that area was falling out of favor in modern society. For my part, I think there have been, and always will be ethical struggles.
It seems to me that those most likely to want to keep an AFK penalty, would be best served by staying out of the queues (all 5 out a total of 38) that allow level 5 toons to enter, and by keeping to the remaining (33) queues where level 5's aren't even allowed. That would allow the community to grow, and in turn, a growing community can afford to carry very specialized groups within itself. Just have the presence of mind to not trample through the low level player zones.
In other words, if we all used our best manners, we wouldn't need the penalty, but even if it remained, it would be far less likely to cause all the grief that is is now.
I'm still for a better mechanic.
Qapla
A better explanation why they recieved an AFK penalty I agree is a good idea, as for them learning why a mission failed, need not have such a dramatic explanation.
It is something that is already explained most often, and something people should be learning by paying attention!
I would agree, that no one below 50, should be able to queue for such missions at all!
There are far better means, for leveling, and shouldn't be of major concern regarding what those pve queues have to offer anyways till lvl50+.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
I had been curious about how accurate the http://sto.gamepedia.com/Main_Page materials were. I am always a little suspicious that someone hasn't kept something up to date. The toon I selected was just level three, and had received an NPC mission to go to Starbase 24, and queue for Starbase 24 Defense.
I did that, and when I got to SB 24 and looked at the queues there was no F.A. with that exact name, the closest one, and the one that seemed to make the most sense was also the only one that would allow a level three into it. I joined, and was the only one in the queue for long enough to get to level five. By then there were a total of four F.A. queues available. Three space, and one ground, only one, the one I was in, was gated levels 3 to 9, the other three were gated for levels 5 to 60. My queue still only had me in it, but the other queue was one shy, so I switched since part of my goal was to more closely examine the mix of different levels.
I had a small amount of time to click on the other players and get a quick glance at what level they were, and get a look at the ships they had. It was a very mixed group, mostly cruisers, one Sci, and one ship not much better off than mine. My gear was what I had found in game to that point, plus the C-Store T-1 Connie with the blue phasers. Then we got into combat.
The mix was interesting. I was able to stick with the biggest ship pretty well, but there was a huge speed difference whenever full impulse was needed to re-position. Staying close to the big dog (level 40+) worked in any case. I was always close to the action. Everyone was staying tight, and inside the radius for most team abilities, but we didn't hit all the goals for the F.A. We got marks, and some expertise, but not all we might have, if we had accomplished all objectives.
Looking through the chat window afterwards, I noticed that my torpedoes never seemed to get recorded as much as I had hoped. My phasers did, and they were nearly as effective per weapon, as the next guy up, who also had more weapons. There was about a ten to one difference in what I was doing, and the average attack from the Antiproton weapons the two best equipped players were using. Tetryons were next down. The 'Big Dog' seemed to be all beams, and the next down I know used some torps. There were a few times that the map lit up, and multiple enemies died. It may have been kemocite, but to be honest, I missed most of the last seven months, so I don't know. I looked in the chat for kemocite abilities, or insane damage, and didn't see anything more insane than some good torpedo penetrations, and of course, antiprotons in numbers.
That F.A mission didn't satisfy my 'queue' requirement to clear the mission I had from the NPC that lead me here, so I tried the other queue again. I hit level 10 while waiting, and had to re-queue again, but was pleased to see that this particular queue was actually splitting players by level groups of 3-9, 10-19, etc, like it should. Also it took a lot less time to start. I barely had time to switch to a T-2 Exeter Cruiser.
This battle was so much easier to see. There were lots of T-2 ships, about half of them Cruisers, and the shared support was easier to break down. Lots of times one or another ship would go red, but most of the time one of us could help the other. One ship did a lot of healing. I used cruiser commands a few times to draw fire so a ship could get some relief from withering fire. A few of us blew up a few times. In all it was your basic battle, and we got stuff. Nobody was overshadowed by anyone either.
So what I noticed most was that the inviting NPC mission that sends you ti the queues seems to be intended to get you to learn about queues by entering one. Like the game tells you to go to a PVP arena early on. Basically it's the same thing. The description in the mission is a little off, but there is only one mission you can take if you are level three. If you take the mission after level five, you may not catch that there is no ceiling on the other few that come up.
To be continued ... or edited later.
Continuing ...
One of the things I did during the queues was to actually bother with the filters to get a clear idea what my toon could access. Usually I am flying a level 50+ and don't need to worry about it. If I'm teaming in-Fleet, I pick something my current bunch should be able to do well enough. In other cases I usually let others recommend, or if solo, I just go for normal queues with Fleet marks, since Fleet improvement is one of my main focuses.
Fleet marks can't be had in many missions. I noticed that to get Fleet marks for a low level toon you had to pretty much take the queues that allow 5-60, and so risk mixing with much more powerful 'allies'. Not that there were more then four actual choices anyway.
I can see where a player with a high level toon might feel like he had to do most, or from his point of view, all of the work. I never care when I am the highest level, if I have to do more. Quite often I am with a mixed bunch, because my Fleet is a mixed bunch, so I expect to have stragglers, and I expect myself to just deal with it because we are a fleet and a certain ethical standard for inclusion, training and yes FUN, has to be applied.
However in a random group, it seems likely that a high level mob generated by a high level toon, will be very difficult for the whole group, because not all toons are able to be as effective. It will end up that in some cases the high level mob can only be really dealt with by the high level toon(s) and so you can expect some emotions there.
That is where we get quotes like "I had to carry everyone to a win and they don't even appreciate it!" or "I didn't get a maximum reward because of all the fraking noobs!" or " The DPS guys made it so we couldn't do anything by killin' stuf so fast all we did was fly around in circles trying to catch up!" or " I got AFK'd for no reason!"
Or the quote I see most often. "They are ruining it for other players!"
The problem with the last one, is that everyone is saying it, and they are saying it about everyone else who isn't in their club. News flash! We are all in the same club, the STO club. We need to work at accepting our differences in play style, training, natural ability, and goals.
Since we have been talking about AFK's I just want to say again, that I think the current mechanic is responsible for generating a lot of this drama between groups. We should be finding a better way to smooth out the edges between them.
I'll be doing more experiments.
Qapla
You need not spend a single penny on this game, so the comment about recieving a 2hr. ban simply because you don't spend money, is quite irrelevant!
People can easily exceed 10k dps with simple freebie mkxii gear, nothing out of pocket at all, even using a freebie ship no less!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Qapla
Maybe you are right sometimes, but there is a gray area
. I would say that someone who has kids may have to leave for reasons having to do with an off screen emergency, and I would hate to aggravate their stress by being overtly negative to them. Sometimes the off screen environment is fine, and sometimes stuff happens unexpectedly.
One of my main Fleet's co-leaders has kids. He is a committed player, and very responsible to the Fleet, and teams he is in, but he is also responsible to his family. He and his wife take turns watching the kids when they each have something they want to do that requires concentration, but kids will surprise you,and all of a sudden, you need both parents.
The game is inclusive, by design, for nearly anyone with a computer and internet, and we need to remember that the world is not only all that WE see but what others see also.
Qapla.
skollulfr, coldnaplam, can we please not get this thread flamed out of action? I appreciate things both of you have said. I do think we could have enough good ideas gathered on this thread to make a difference. Lets slow down a little please?
Just got back from a basically fun, if occasionally disappointing evening of running small scale toons.
First off, whatever gets said about the queues, if you want to play a tiered game level 5-9, 10-19, etc. You can wait all day for the 5-9 to start. I went and did other missions hoping the queue would start, and I was willing to drop what I was doing, and engage if that had happened, and it almost did. I had the notification pop up, and we had five in the queue, (its team 5 to 10) however one or more in the queue failed to engage, so it was aborted. So it was back to four, then three and when I switched toons after going ten levels, it was at 1, which was me, so it died.
My guess is that other players got tired of waiting, or while waiting got involved in something they wanted to finish, or even had to go do real life stuff for a minute and figured they could. Waiting for the 5-9 queue is like watching paint dry. You have to do something else, maybe for hours if you have the option. I won't claim my 'experiments' have proper scientific method, but they do amount to actual in the field observations from the viewpoint of toons so low in level they could hide under a rock.
Story PVE was like falling off a log easy though, except that new KDF and Rom toons are actually slightly more disadvantaged by the bonus Experience. Hold on, let me explain. You know (I hope ...) that the UFP promotes your toon, and gets you access to the next tier of ship as you level, right? You just have to talk to Quinn.
Not so with R.R. and KDF. Someone got the bright idea to link access to new free ships of the appropriate tier, to completion of early story content, so bonus experience points levels both you, and your foes, but not your ship, because you didn't do enough STORY content. The nerfing your enemies are getting goes away. Faster than you can complete the story content needed to keep up with them in material terms.
I had long since gotten enough ships unlocked that I can get what I need in such a case. Due to persistent grinding I'm rich compared to the typical noob going through this week. He has no idea why he doesn't have a Lt Commander ship, at Lt Commander's rank. I'm golden, but the noob is facing harder, and harder opposition because this time the reward is what is punishing him. His ship is stuck inside a story, and he can't get it out! So even easy sailing isn't so easy.
Weirder still, this means that next week there will be a whole new bunch of level 50+ players, who are still noobs inside, who still have no REAL experience, and are still flying KRAP! Welcome to Infected Space noobs! It's going to be interesting.
Now with the level 5-9 queue being dead (or practically so) and the noobs being rushed into levels they aren't really equiped for, I have to wonder. How many will just give up on the 5-9 queue (no Fleet marks anyway) and go to the 5-60 queues? How many will, by virtue of (+)150% experience, skyrocket to levels 40, 50, higher, only to feel like it keeps getting to be less fun? How many will get an undeserved AFK for joining the faster queue, or get an AFK for being a level 50+ noob in a T-2 ship flying "Infected: the Conduit, Advanced"?
Honestly, there is so much messed up here. I am happy to get the bonus week, don't get me wrong, but I know pretty much what to expect. The good, the bad, and the ugly!
Bringing back older lock boxes, right before a key sale, right before an experience point boost that will surely drive interest in higher level C-Store, Lobi, and Lock box ships. Selling more Zen, and keys! A lot of that can be fun, if your not confused by it.
So still focused on the AFK in spite of the rambling above. Getting a better idea about what makes the False Positive more likely to happen. I'll be back.
Qapla
Enlightened Self Interest will save us !
OK, so the lack of anything resembling a viable 'shallow end of the pool' for noobs, combined with a dps escalation that can force a false-positive when Level 5 noobs queue the level 5-60 missions with, y'know, level 60 players in them, seems to be a reason to lok at the AFK penalty, just by itself.
It just occurred to me that a noob may be trying to learn what a queue is even about, and would spend at least some time watching the battle (still pew-pewing the space bar, but maybe les so) if only to learn what may be different from story based content. This would add to the risk of a false-positive penalty.
Thanks
Qapla
So tightening up, these changes are what I have to suggest.
Queues that are normal difficulty, that allow toons below level 50 to queue at all, have no AFK penalties. All existing rewards apply. There would be an extra bonus for the person who scored highest using the existing standard for measurement, (not perfect, but it will probably work) so that 'professional' players can feel happy about this. This would affect only NINE queues. Even with the loss of Breach, and Mine Trap, that leaves twenty-seven that this idea would not change.
Next; Toons at level 5+ that are matched with toons at higher levels receive passive skill boosts to participation/survival/and dps affecting skills like (but not necessarily restricted to) Starship Weapons training, Starship Hull Repair and Starship Engine Performance. The amount of boost should be like receiving the difference in skill points between the low toon, and the highest toon present. This may be slightly more complex than just giving a dps boost as coldnapalm suggested, but it should help them help the team by staying in the fight better, and longer. Since the game already has some mechanics that provide skill boost, it may not be hard to do this at all.
All queues that require level 50+ to enter them remain the same. All Advanced and Elite S.T.F.s would remain the same. The vast majority of PVE content remains the same, and people playing in level 50+ queues will still have an AFK penalty to keep noobs, and leeches at bay.
Again, changes here really only affect the nine, low level access queues.
A compromise would be just to leave all of it as it is, except for just those nine queues, where we would ditch the penalty entirely. I don't like it as well because this compromise shifts the burden (glory) of achieving any wins that much more squarely onto the higher level toons, and would be less fun for everyone, including the noobs.
OK, so who is still here? What do you think? What would Leonard Nimoy do?
As importantly, how would Leonard Nimoy post?
Qapla
P.S. I wish there was a reward for NOT doing the same missions over and over again. If you did three different in a row, you might get +30%. That might encourage people to try more varied content in the 50+ queues. It is also a way to prevent things like the loss of Mine Trap. Just a thought, since we are also talking about queues.
Qapla
I doubt they would switch to WoT system, but they may make the adjustments I mentioned in the prior post, if we get enough people to get behind even that much.
How about it?
Qapla
Who said anything about a 20k dps nx-01? I said it is very easy to achieve higher than 10k dps with freebies + freebie ships, the nx-01 isn't a freaking freebie, and shows how little you even pay attention to what is written in this forum!
Also, what does any of what you just commented on, have any inkling in regards to new players sticking around? It doesn't!!!
Your scoreboard load of TRIBBLE, is just that, a load of TRIBBLE!
You want a scoreboard, to not only make those who cannot do well see it in plain english telling them they suck, but to show who is actually doing well giving the bad performers, some sort of false hope in believing all they need is what that player(s) has? It doesn't work that way, one player will always out perform another given the exact same stuff, if those who perform badly were given the toys, their performace with those toys will still show they perform poorly compared to a good performer!
You sound like some bad player, who just wants it all handed to them, on some golden platter!
Than whines when it doesn't happen!!!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
I have to say I am neutral about a scoreboard, however they do keep score in game somehow, and I can see where being able to select and open the scores 'they' use to measure us might be helpful to those who want that information. All I am saying is it might be a good, but entirely optional thing. However I can also see where having a lousy score shoved into your face could be upsetting. We don't want to humiliate new players either, even if feedback could help.
If we take the latest suggestion I was recommending a few posts back, as a starting point, but we also made scores accessible to the players at their option (not in your face, but tucked away in a menu to be accessed after/between battles), and did this for high, and low level toons, there would be measured feedback.
Honest feedback can be brutal, but no feedback can also be cruel, since it doesn't relate a result (like AFK) to a specific effect (like low DPS). Giving each ship a 'white gear' dps rating in it's stat block might help, so players have more to look at. Scores could be related more to the 'White gear rating' (wgr?) when deciding how well you really did. A stat blocked wgr would require almost no record keeping, and still give a benchmark for how wel you just did.
Also, since any player can get green, or better for weapons, and consoles as they go, it should be easy to rate above, rather than below that in general use. If you show both scores (what you did raw, versus how you did in terms of wgr) you know where you were on the power scale, but also where you were based on a standard for the ship.
Again, neutral about a scoreboard. I'm just trying to be fair in considering options. All I really care about is making things friendly for new toons, and not overtly punishing anyone who doesn't legitimately deserve it.
If some version of score tracking would help, why not have a little bit? If it couldn't possibly help, then why add it? If we do add it, we don't have to make the trumpets blare and set of fireworks, it can be subtley accessible, and just show you enough to help you adjust.
Just sharing thoughts. Not taking a side on that, but I will try to help smooth out rough spots in any further suggestions that get discussed along those lines, in the hopes it will lead us back to the "penalty" concerns and the best fix for those.
However, thinking about a wgr for a ship's stat block, and the WoT system, maybe instead of tracking all those averages, they could just look at your wgr, instead of one% of the total team output, before issueing an afk? With a buffer for travel/repositioning times you could get a pretty fair idea if someone was doing something.
It would not cure the disconnects, and other miscellaneous. I still like what I said six posts (?) ago, as far as the lowest nine queues. Anyway, take care.
Qapla
Call me what you will, but even if this game died tomorrow, it really isn't anything but time invested in the name of fun, so no big loss really.
Heck, after actually sinking money into another MMO, played for years, and it finally made changes I did not enjoy, I have never bothered to return EVER!
So, it to was no big loss to me, I had my fun, than I moved on as expected.
But, your idiotic ideas of everything being taught to players like some school, is down right rediculous to say the least, learn or get left behind.
As for this notion of pay 2 win, what exactly are you paying 2 win? Win what? In game rewards faster? A lockbox gamble ship, that isn't even needed? Because I get those fast enough, and it hasn't cost me a single penny out of pocket, only time spent playing.
Your lousy example of an NX-01 ship, is just that, lousy as it doesn't hit upon my statement of a player who is actually you know.....good at games can easily reach a 10k dps and more, with simply freebie stuff, not having to use uber powerful traits/boff skills/gear/ship to accomplish this task!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
If not for players who spend real life cash,there is NO game for anyone so before posting such foolish things,stop and think first. You can play this game for free,it just takes time to grind,just like I have for almost 3 years,and have bought several ships,keys and other goodies. If you choose not to spend cash,and won't grind then you will never get anywhere in this game. But calling the people who pay and keep the game running is a mistake...might lead to unfortunate circumstances for all of us.
And admiralkogar,I would support removing afk's for the 9 low level queues,but I'd also like the auto-fail's put back in advanced stf's and some sort of test required to gain access. Advanced/elite are for upper tier players,which anyone playing can acheive just by playing and grinding out reputation and gaining access to a decent fleet. I don't want to deny access for anyone but some standards have to be kept,or else it's unfair to those of us who have taken the needed steps to become a more powerful player.
If a player is honestly trying to learn how to play,then I'm all for them and I'd be glad to offer some advice as far as simple builds,how to play certain queues,etc. I'm all for new players,you're right,we need them,but you can't just give them everything right off the bat. They won't know how to use it,and most won't bother. We do need new players,but we need ones who are gonna stick with the game and show some interest in learning how to play.
Just taking out afk penalties isn't the whole answer though. Without established players lending a helping hand or encouraging the new players to learn,we lose. Yes,there are people in the game who act like idiots,but I've seen that from well established players and new players alike. That exists in every online game ever made and unfortunately,I see no end in sight.
We also need the cashers,and calling them names isn't going to help their attitudes either. If you don't get that, then YOU are the dullard.