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The portrayal of Klingons in STO
goodscotch
Member Posts: 1,680 Arc User
What struck me in the last episode, Midnight, about Kagran's behavior was that it was not very Klingon. The Klingons would have sided with Sela's approach which was: go in, take out the Iconians and get out. Instead, Kagran arrives and starts noticing how nice the Iconian's are compared to how they are in his time. Would a high-ranking Klingon officer really care knowing that in his time, this same race are about to snuff out his Empire and everyone else's along with it?
Perhaps this would have been better if the part of Kagran was played by a Federation officer. It would have been a bit more believable.
Any thoughts? Maybe I'm missing something.
Perhaps this would have been better if the part of Kagran was played by a Federation officer. It would have been a bit more believable.
Any thoughts? Maybe I'm missing something.
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Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Not mindless, just more along the lines of combat first, anything else, second. They're not mindless droolers, but warriors first, combat with honor, and anything else second. They had a job to do and that was to go back into the past, eliminate the enemy and return to, hopefully, see positive results. Kagran seemed to go back, see how nice they were, change the plan entirely, and try to make friends with them unable to take them out because of how nice they seemed. Maybe I'm overemphasizing some things. Not sure. It just didn't seem to me like what a Klingon officer would do.
Klingons are no foreigners to pragmatism and being pragmatic in certain situations is nothing new for Klingons, as it has been portrayed with Chancellor Gorkon and General (later Chancellor) Martok among others. The thing is - Klingons pick the moments to be pragmatic themselves, according to their liking, unlike some other factions that treat is as a policy in relations with other species/factions. Klingons just tend to act on different principles and often in the spur of the moment, but are fully capable of everything your average Human, Romulan, Andorian or whoever is at a given time.
What we could have done, if we have second thoughts about our missions, to go back further in time so we can safe the Iconians. How? By taking the enemies of the old Iconians out, or at least, take care of some kind of settlement.
Did you see those species that were up against the Iconians. Boy, they were ugly. Nobody will miss them and that is a fact. Where are they anyway?
Anyway, I didn't like the story at all. Like a bunch of kids have fabricated a silly joke.
I'm with you on that point! Makes it a bit easier to deal with the scenario.
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Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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That Iconian War episode with the Kahless Clone was a gold mine, wasn't it?
I'm still trying to understand why it happened
It's like they originally had a plan and then dropped it and never talk about it again.
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So... Somewhere with the Iconians is Kahless' Bat'tleth. Still lol
That sounds like a Foundry mission for Klingon Intelligence. Either a stealth recovery mission or one that implicates some other faction/group... possibly making it look like the Ferengi stole it to sell to the Empire later?
Actually, it could be two Foundry missions:
A Federation one where the Ferengi send in a team to re-acquire it and pin it on the Klingons,
A Klingon one where Klingon Intelligence sends in a team to re-acquire it and pin it on the Ferengi,
And both with dialog options that have them sending in their Repiblic liason to further conceal what's going on. Bonus points if the Author can manage to do both, offering stealth and misdirection routes through the mission.
If the Klingon word for that type of gold is bak'tag, yes.
that red alien which is still causing problem could have been left to die. BAM no more problems left in game, but i would have killed them all, think of Honor to be gained in saving so many lives Vrs the slaughter of a few to save the lives because the war never would have happened. all those dead ? why ? because those twelve had not done it yet? there is no honor in allowing the enemy to kill you if you have a chance to prevent it. this is one task force i wish (cant believe im saying this) had been commanded by a VULCAN the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one. would dictate that killing those twelve would have been acceptable losses compared to the numbers that died in the war.
Or a writer that let us kill hundreds of them back in the past and only those 12 escaped but somehow when we were doing the time travel thing we just aimed it at their ship and sent them back in time and let their own inability to time travel kill them off with only the one escaping yet again to continue the mission grinding against them relevance factor going strong.
Would even have helped explain why a supposedly advanced species such as them could have had been taken over by what they were caller lesser species. allowing our modern ships to fight 200000 year old iconian tech.
George Lucas did a much better job at this than the writer(s) at Cryptic. Further, his villain started with some admirable qualities to begin with. And in the end chose his son over his Master. Sela has exactly zero redeeming features. Always has and always will. I cannot ever picture her being presented with such a choice and choosing the good of others over herself. No matter what.
I like Midnight, Enough so I have played it numerous times on all of my chars. I have gone back and replayed the Iconian story arc missions in order from the beginning as well. Individually, they have elements which detract from the story, some jarringly so. But taken as a whole, it is a good story with a lot of fun and excitement which does feel "Star Trek" enough to me.
I would have liked an option where the player has a choice to defend Iconia from the attacking fleets. While 200,000 year old Iconian technology was and is more than enough to give players fits, I do not think the same can be said of their enemies' technology. Else they all would not be pestering the Iconians for improvements and stuff which their societies were not wise enough to use properly.
Imagine what a game STO would have been without the participation of this TNG throwaway clown character at all! And now I feel sad....
There are many examples of Klingons in canon who don't necessarily conform to the often invoked 'thoughtless barbarian' stereotype.
...After two weeks on Ancient Iconia, where he didn't have to worry about "survival", is when he's back to "Honor dictates we don't backstab those we ally with, and we entered an alliance of convenience to save these "peaceful" Iconians" - leading to his recognition that we are the Other...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
Unfortunately those Klingons and the facts surrounding them are too often ignored when it doesn't fit the stereotype that certain unnamed parties now try to impose on the rest of us as fact. They prefer to think of Klingons as the types that know nothing more than to say "Me violent. Me want to fight. Me go kill someone now." Trying to prove to them otherwise is so absolutely futile that resisting the Borg seems in comparison seems like a milk run.
I agree with Angrytarg where he says, "I don't find his behaviour odd at all... ...(Despite being a total idiot the mission before), Kagran shows a bit of foresight and does not blindly follow the plan because the variables have changed."
I suspect the reason for showing the Brave Klingon Raptor pilot like so many before him, and the reintroduction of Kahless to portray Klingon honor despite incredible odds, it also fulfilled the original Klingon scripture of him reuniting his people against incredible odds again. I think aside from the rough & tough exterior many may have about Klingon's they are still a very honorable people for the most part. Kagan's action like you perfectly identified having spent days amoung the Iconians were consistent with the honorable teachings of Kahless that aligned with an honorable klingon warrior. Klingon Honor is not just about knowing when to look the enemy in the eye despite great odds and fight, but must include taking new information that becomes available to you into account because of who you are, and with new information to keep a promise first made after continued interaction validates it. Breaking an agreement as Sela did only ensured the fate of Romulus eventual distruction. Sela in the end realized the paradox and realized what she did, perhaps she had no choice based on predestination theory? Or had we joined her and failed we may only slightly delayed a far larger attack or one with no possible truce, or had we succeeded in our original mission we would have learned we aided in the destruction of a great people who had yet to have any reason to want to cause us harm. To say the writers of this storyline didn't not well research all the facts I'd say is completely unfair. Kagran's principles in the final mission represented values that would likely make worf very proud, anything else would have been in conflict against centuries of Klingon tradition since the days of Kahless.
There was a whole episode with Worf returning to Boreth after failing to see a vision of Kahless to guide him in Rightful Heir. In the episode Kayless returned from Stovokor yet was later discovered to be a clone or duplicate but yet had all his memories, traits, dna and characteristics intact. Even spirtual leaders were willing to accept it was Kahless reincarnate. In the episode Worf spoke of the values of Kahless, and later Kahless identifies values he taught, when he first united his people stopping the fighting, and gave brought honor to the Klingon People.
Later when Picard served as Worf's chadice in Sins of the Father after his brother was attacked in a cowardly fashion, and after learning of the true reason that Worf's discommendation was to protect Duras whose father was guilty at Khitomer. Duras had greatly expanded his influence in the empire before these facts were discovered and he pressured K'mpec (Head of the High Council) getting him to fear it might throw the empire into civil war which would destroy the alliance with the Federation and destabalize the quadrant. Worf nor Picard could believe that K'mpec (Emperior) who supported the alliance with the Federation would act so dishonorably, but had grown to expect it from Duras given other actions his Father and the House. During the discommendation ceremony it was shown K'mpec's dishonor weighted on him as he paused before he put his back to Worf knowing that Worf had bought him the time he required to still save the empire.
It's the same reason why K'mpec later choose Picard as Arbitor of Succession in Reunion for the Klingon High Council, as he discovered he was slowing being poisoned likely by the House of Duras. Yet knowing he was dying requested the Klingon Ambassidor (K'Ehleyr - Alexander's Mother) get in touch with Picard at Once to officially appoint Picard before he passed. When K'mpec met with Picard on the Ambassidor's ship he required Picard to confirm his suspicians and that whoever was choosen to replace him as Head of the High Council would return Honor to a role he traditionally had tried to. K'mpec later dies. K'Ehleyr guiding Picard advises using an archaic ceremony to move forward with the selection during which time an explosion attempted to frame Gowran for an attempt on Duras's life to securing his position as Head of the High Council.
It was then discovered the klingon explosive used a Romulan triggering device and was worn by one of Duras's guards. K'Ehleyr was later killed for her decision to not be bribed (dishonorably) by Duras and for encouraging Picard in the archaic method, which gave the enterprise time to piece things together about the bomb exposing Duras's most recent disception. What was unknown to Duras was Worf got to K'Ehleyr before she passed exposing who killed her, also unknown to them was that she was his mate and had the Right of Vengence (challenge one who killed his mate) so he faced and killed Duras. With no other challengers Picard provisionally appoints Gowron before a final ceremony to take place in several weeks. The House of Duras Leadership had resorted to very cowardly, dishonorable (non Klingon), methods much more similar to what many in game would equate to old Romulan Tactics before the birth of the Romulan Republic under D'tan and with a large investment of time from Spock.
It's too bad more people don't better understand Klingon legend as they are portraying the vast majority of Klingon's to be more like Lursa and B'Etor (Duras's Sisters) who were very UN-KLINGON and we once again find them partnering with the Romulans when they challenge the final installation ceremony with a Young Boy they claim is Duras son to challenge Gowron before the last rights are read. In Redemption Parts I & II Picard looks into the matter but before ruling, has ample suspicions the House of Duras is being supplied with Military resources placing pressure also on Gowron before his installation. As a result Picard forms an Federation Armada of new starships that create a blockaid along the Klingon / Romulan border. During one exercise Picard urges Gowron to Attack the Duras forces forcing Romulans to bring supplies and his Armada sets up a detection grid, yet Sela identifies Picard's trap and he is forced to fail back and regroup. Acting Captain Data disobey's that order having divised an alternate method to identify Romulan's and acts quick to catch them before time expires; Data however has managed to expose the Romulan's forcing Sela to withdraw her support now that her plan to aid the Duras has been exposed. As a result Gowron goes on to become head of the High Council.
In time Worf urges Gowron to speak to him which both avoided because of his discommendation, yet eventually manages to expose the full dishonor of Duras--which eventually leads to Wolf restoring his family name.
A code of honor, being one they more or less follow, is what seperates a foe the Federation can negotiate with as opposed from a mortal threat that they must eventually find a way to end entirely, like the Borg. I suppose with the word honor being used often in Klingon culture, people expect them to be perfectly honorable. They're not. There's no such thing as a perfect person on our world. Why should we presume there would be so there?
A minor point: Rightful Heir happened after Redemption, when the Duras sisters and his son made a play for the throne Both happened after Duras was killed by Worf, not because he knew Duras poisoned K'mpec, but that Duras killed his beloved. That's the only nit I'll pick.
I think you said summed it up nicely here. No people regardless of what culture, race, or nationality is all perfect, we all have different flaws, challenges, obstacles, and paths were all on--I like to believe were primarily mostly good at our core. There are exceptions to ever rule and some are better than others, yet it's hard to judge anyone without walking in their shoes. Perhaps the Klingon's may all strive for it, yet only a few of their guides or warriors attain it. It is no different for the Vulcan's. Even Tuvok withdrew from the Federation after a slight conflict with Captain Sulu on his ship, prior to returning to Vulcan to studying with a Monk to master logic & vulcan ways before returning to Starfleet.
I later remember Toress acknowledging in a different episode she forget Vulcan's felt pain, she asked if that was him screaming, as Tuvok was Tortured by their captives. He replied Vulcan's could surpress so much before they eventually had to succumb to it. Yet even as far as we've come as a Human Race we still have't yet managed to rid our world of hunger, managed to provide housing, education, or medicine, or where we've evolved our primary sense of value & worth as being derived from what were learning & contributing back to society for the good of our community & Human Race.
I just hope we don't follow a simliar path to the history written in Startrek in the 21st & 22nd century that has another World War like described in Star Trek First Contact, or later Q in Encounter at Farpoint where he put the Human Race was put on Trial. Humality was charged with being a dangerous child race who gave their military drugs. While I fear change to a Roddenberry future won't come easily, I'd rather us skip over some the savage behavior Q charged us, moving towards a peaceful earth we now know as the 25th century--how do we get there though?
I appologize if I didn't articulate as well as I had hoped.
From what I gather, "honor" is to Klingons as "morality" is to Humans. Honor is the Klingon version of morality, in a sense. Most Humans tend to share a similar sense of basic morality (murder, for instance, is basically viewed as immoral across culture and history). I suspect the same can be said about Klingons and honor, too. Of course, on both sides, morality and honor can also be erroneously invoked to rationalize decidedly immoral or dishonorable behavior, and then I'm sure there's also a few who disregard honor entirely, just as there are Humans who disregard morality entirely.
A warrior is not just an aggressor. A warrior also defends what needs defending. The instinct to defend what feels like home is not unusual at all, and when someone makes their home, your home, genuinely, you feel it. These new friends need to be defended from what is coming, from what they will become, and from those who would destroy them. They are not deserving of the coming betrayal. They do not deserve treachery at the hands of cowardly honorless villains who only pretended friendship, just to get the things they coveted. They do not deserve extinction.
A warrior is not just a well armed savage! Would you as a Klingon, sacrifice the dream of what Klingon honor is supposed to mean, would you destroy that which makes Klingons better than an honorless baktag of the sort who would betray a friend to save his own life?! Would you not be clever, perceptive, adaptable, like a true warrior? Could you not see another way to change the past? A way that did not murder your new friends along with honor itself? Would you not seek a path that was clean of the poisons of deceit? Would you not seek a foe that was worthy of your warrior spirit, even if the foe was only an idea you knew deep down was wrong from the start? Would you not seek and hold the high ground, come what may?
D you remember this quote from warriors past? No plan survives contact with the enemy ...
Or in Sela's case, we have met the enemy, and they is us!
Did you bring enough bloodwine? All this makes me thirsty
The greatest enemy a warrior will ever have to face is inside himself. He fought, and he won! I find no fault with Kargan! Qapla!
A mug of bloodwine for you sir!
I would only, and as a mere nitpick say that the plan to kill off a whole race as the plan originally was had no honor to begin with. Kagran, in desperation forwent honor in favor of survival. It was a tempting and pressing series of events that could try all but the most virtuous of people, and he at first failed. A few days of calm away from the war apparently did him some good. When the time came, only Sela would have chosen to kill the Iconians or bust up the gate and confine ALL the Iconians to their doom. It looks like a story of redemption for Kagran, as well as a suitable ending to the war.
I'm glad I'm not the only person in this thread that has come to a similar conclusion--the war was taxing on a great many people. Even the Iconian's lost much in a conflict they never started, their civilization by the invaders, then 3-4 of their remaining few by Sela's misunderstanding; they also thought all knowledge & records were lost, leaving the world heart behind to prevent being killed.
Kagran spent many days with those people, shown a non violent, kind, and loving people. I found myself in complete agreement with him having only spent but a few minutes with them. I'm just thankful Sela herself realized the paradox before the damage was irreversable.
I'd like to see the Iconian's rebuild their past culture based upon what we came to know back then. Perhaps no one in the alliance knows what the future holds, I'm just glad some found their hearts when it mattered most.
At least SOMETHING good came of the worst mission in STO.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
its been said in other threads and i believe this, the Honor is in winning, not a draw or a cease fire. to have ended the war even in the past would have been the greatest honor of all.
people say hindsight is 20/20, but in that mission we had foresight, we know millions will die if they escape yet we were forced to do so anyway. helping the bad guys in the past escape to become what they will become is the same as if we had attacked the home world ourselves and killed millions of our own people.