I hope I can avoid the flames
(...)
Not that I wouldn't go for a T6 B'rel, I just have my priorities.
There really are no flames in this thread, the only volatile factor removed itself from the thread
I concur with your posting. A T6 B'Rel and a T6 D7/K'Tinga could both make me cosnider to create a new KDF character, although I still save for a T6 Nebula first.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Can you point to a source? From the top of my porcine head I cannot remember any mention of an allience that would lead to the B'Rel being a Romulan design used by the Klingons. We have a presumed alliance during TOS that lead to Romulans using D7 class ships, possibly in exchange for cloaking technology (speculation) but that's the only possible hint of an alliance I know of.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Can you point to a source? From the top of my porcine head I cannot remember any mention of an allience that would lead to the B'Rel being a Romulan design used by the Klingons. We have a presumed alliance during TOS that lead to Romulans using D7 class ships, possibly in exchange for cloaking technology (speculation) but that's the only possible hint of an alliance I know of.
Star Trek Encyclopedia under the Romulan Star Empire. Says there was an alliance in 2268, where technology was shared. But Mr. Artan's trolling saying Okuda is wrong.
Which I also have to laugh at his pointing out how the Klingon BoP was originaly Romulan, and yet in canon it's now confirmed the Klingon BoP's been around for hundreds of years. Oh the hypocrisy.
the only possible hint of an alliance that just so happens to be the only possible explanation for how a race who prizes fighting over technology could obtain something as sophisticated as a cloaking device and how another race acquires several ships of a design that doesn't fit their aesthetic
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
(...)
Which I also have to laugh at his pointing out how the Klingon BoP was originaly Romulan, and yet in canon it's now confirmed the Klingon BoP's been around for hundreds of years. Oh the hypocrisy.
Maybe I missed something, but I think Artan just pointed out that the B'Rel was originally, out-of-universe, a Romulan ship and that is correct. ST III was supposed to feature Romulans and the B'Rel is actually designed sporting a Romulan pattern. Also the designation "Bird of Prey" is a Romulan one. In-universe you are right, though, there's no hint at the design being stolen or traded (after they decided to use Klingons instead of Romulans). The D7s in TOS however are fact, but an alliance has never been spelled out, we only can interpret Worf's "another Klingon-Romulan alliance?" in conjunction with the D7 appearance.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
the only possible hint of an alliance that just so happens to be the only possible explanation for how a race who prizes fighting over technology could obtain something as sophisticated as a cloaking device and how another race acquires several ships of a design that doesn't fit their aesthetic
It's canon that there was previous Klingon-Romulan alliances, Worf even mentions the Romulans supposed to be their allies during the Khitomer Massacre.
And why Romulans used the D7? Simple, their BoPs sucked and they needed something fast, so they worked out an agreement with the Klingons. Warships to counter the Federation, at the same time the ship powers their cloaking devices more efficiently. It buys them time until they could build their own. In a way it parallels the Chinese and the Russians against the US during the Cold War.
Maybe I missed something, but I think Artan just pointed out that the B'Rel was originally, out-of-universe, a Romulan ship and that is correct. ST III was supposed to feature Romulans and the B'Rel is actually designed sporting a Romulan pattern. Also the designation "Bird of Prey" is a Romulan one. In-universe you are right, though, there's no hint at the design being stolen or traded (after they decided to use Klingons instead of Romulans). The D7s in TOS however are fact, but an alliance has never been spelled out, we only can interpret Worf's "another Klingon-Romulan alliance?" in conjunction with the D7 appearance.
What I was pointing out is that he freely references the origins of the K-BoP, but purposely ignores Okuda. I just find that hypocritical.
And sure it never was directly spoken on screen, but Trek fans accepted there was something going on 50 years ago. During that time, nothing ever was presented that countered it. Instead, we seen more and more on-off relationships with the Klingons and the Romulans. So to say it never happened is just trolling.
it's supposed to, since the TOS klingons were a depiction of soviet russia and the romulans a depiction of asiatic nations, but mainly china (even though they use roman rank names and architecture)
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Sigh. If it wasn't onscreen it's not canon.
I don't care if the glowing ghost of Gene Roddenberry himself descends from Sha Ka Ree and says there was a TOS era alliance between the Klingons and Romulans whereby cloaking devices were traded for D7s. If it wasn't put into an episode it never happened.
Do you really need it broken down again?
'Intelligence reports Romulans now using Klingon design' (The Enterprise Incident)
Evidence of Romulans in D7s, nothing more.
'A new Klingon alliance with the Romulans' (Reunion)
Referring to the previous one i.e. 'they killed my parents in an attack on Khitomer at a time when they were supposed to be our allies' ("The Neutral Zone)
That's it. Two quotes and that suddenly makes it canon? Note the quotes don't even refer to this supposed alliance.
What about the in-universe logic of the alliance?
Klingon gains
Cloaking devices.
the ability to study reverse engineer cloaking to make their own improvements and invent detection methods.
Honour and glory for the Empire.
Romulan gains
A D7...
Shame for the Empire as they gave away cloaks (and their biggest advantage) for D7s.
So in-universe it's a silly idea.
What about the traded items themselves?
D7s
Traded for with the Klingons.
Captured.
Plans stolen and ships built from the plans.
Seems like 3 is the most Romulan, especially considering the behind the scenes idea that the T'liss was based on the Emmet or Warp Delta type ships of Earth (non-canon I know as it isn't mentioned onscreen, but they do share a resemblance) 1 can be dismissed as the Romulans are not brain-dead.
Cloaks
Traded for with the Romulans.
Stolen from the Suliban.
Stolen from the Xyrillians.
Invented by themselves.
Which is most Klingon? Well 2 and 3 obviously. 4 is a possibility for the TOS Klingons (hell even the AGT Klingons invented time travel (Endgame).
1 can be dismissed as the Romulans are not brain-dead.
In addition: The Romulans were using D7s through TOS and TAS, so for at least 4-5 years, the Klingons didn't cloak until TWOK, some 10 or so years later, even then it was in a BoP and not a D7 (or its refit).
So it is not supported by canon and would't likely happen in canon due to story-logic.
So you want to try a different approach and try refute any of it or just accuse me of Trolling because your favourite fanfiction isn't canon?
What I was pointing out is that he freely references the origins of the K-BoP, but purposely ignores Okuda. I just find that hypocritical.
I never said the B'rel was Romulan, I said it was intended to be, same as I pointed out the only reason the Romulans use D7s is because of issues with the T'liss model. It's hardly hypocritical because I'm only referring to the behind the scenes stuff, not pretending it's canon.
And sure it never was directly spoken on screen, but Trek fans accepted there was something going on 50 years ago. During that time, nothing ever was presented that countered it.
So what? You can accept whatever headcanon you like, official canon disagrees with you and every other fan who believes in the alliance. There is no evidence for it, there is evidence against it, conclusion, the hypothesis is rejected and the null hypothesis retained, there was no alliance.
Post edited by artan42 on
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
what y'all forget is CAPTURED ships being retro-fitted and RE-purposed... for all we know those D7's that the rommies had in the 'enterprise incident' could've been captured and reverse engineered....... also t6 t'liss FTW !!!!
In-universe I accept the trade, it makes more sense than Romulan capturing a small fleet of D7 and the Klingons continue to use this exact ship instead of developing something else for centuries. In any case it stands that "the" Klingon starship was superior to basically everything the quadrant had at that point. Non-canonical, but Star Trek: Axanar makes it plausible. They use a weird star chart placing Tellar and Vulcan at odd positions, but other than that I like it. Watch "Prelude to Axanar" which describes the D7 as the flagship that should have brought the edge over the UFP at the battle of Axanar, a canonical historical event in the first UFP-Klingon war.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
In-universe I accept the trade, it makes more sense than Romulan capturing a small fleet of D7 and the Klingons continue to use this exact ship instead of developing something else for centuries.
For all we know the 7 or so Romulan painted D7s are all the D7s the Romulans had. Sending them on patrol near the Klingon border all painted in their best Romulan finery is a good way to stick it to them.
In any case it stands that "the" Klingon starship was superior to basically everything the quadrant had at that point.
But it wasn't. The Constitution was equal to at least 3 D7s, I can't remember the episode by either Kirk or Sulu was confident about their chances of survival whilst surrounded by D7s.
Which reminds me of another point: The Romulans were using D7s through TOS and TAS, so for at least 4-5 years, the Klingons didn't cloak until TWOK, some 10 or so years later, even then it was in a BoP and not a D7 (or its refit).
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
But it wasn't. The Constitution was equal to at least 3 D7s, I can't remember the episode by either Kirk or Sulu was confident about their chances of survival whilst surrounded by D7s.
Which reminds me of another point: The Romulans were using D7s through TOS and TAS, so for at least 4-5 years, the Klingons didn't cloak until TWOK, some 10 or so years later, even then it was in a BoP and not a D7 (or its refit).
The D7 is presumably older than the constitution. I could have been more clearer, Axanar's timeframe is set prior to the launch of the Constitution. The D7 was the most advanced ship, which should catapult the Klingon ahead to take Axanar before the Constitution launches. As I said, it's a fan project but I like that interpretation of the events (as much as I despise official canon basically since "Generations" Axanar also uses TMP-era Klingon visuals. No Augment-virus nonsense).
Canonically we have nothing of that, but Romulans using D7 - if they captured those or traded, why should they use inferior starships? They had a reason to do so and I interpret it as the D7 being superior. It could be argued the Klingons tempered with the cloak and made them work on their ships which took time. But it's all speculation, we don't know any of that.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
The D7 is presumably older than the constitution. I could have been more clearer, Axanar's timeframe is set prior to the launch of the Constitution. The D7 was the most advanced ship, which should catapult the Klingon ahead to take Axanar before the Constitution launches. As I said, it's a fan project but I like that interpretation of the events (as much as I despise official canon basically since "Generations" Axanar also uses TMP-era Klingon visuals. No Augment-virus nonsense).
The biggest problem with the D7 is the TMP style refit (k't'inga) in ENT, if that were a D6 (as originally intended) it would suggest a D7 of similar age to the Constitution, as it stands now, it's impossible to get an accurate read on anything about the D7.
Canonically we have nothing of that, but Romulans using D7 - if they captured those or traded, why should they use inferior starships? They had a reason to do so and I interpret it as the D7 being superior. It could be argued the Klingons tempered with the cloak and made them work on their ships which took time. But it's all speculation, we don't know any of that.
I'm happy to believe the D7 is superior to the T'liss, to me that means the Romulans either steel the plans for them or steal a small flotilla of them, send a few back to Romulus to study then send the rest out along the NZ to show the Klingons who has the bigger... um, feet .
Unfortunately we have no Romulan ships from the T'liss to the D'D, that's some 150 years where we never see if they continue using the D7 or make their own ships. I still find it hard to belive a race that built the D'D and Scim needed the D7s at all.
That's another reason why I think the cloak is Klingon in origin (or stolen from the other two sources I mentioned), maybe they could only get it to work on the tiny B'rel and not their bigger D7s. The Suliban and Xyrillian ships were small, as small as the B'rel. The Romulan cloak, on the other hand, was a USB device and could be easily plugged into the Constitution, that's something I can see Kor plugging into his D7 (The G'roth?) if it were traded to them.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
I asked @protogoth about that as she holds the biggest and most coherent Romulan lore from combined sources and she told me that the Alliance is the most plausible explanation as well. The T'liss seemed unable to allow for warp-drive under cloak, which uses Scotties' line tha tthe Romulan ship only runs on impulse for a more plausible explanation than having the Romulans cross all the distance with impulse power. Further the Romulan embleme seen in "The Enterprise Incident" is supposed to reflect the alliance.
I like that explanation as it goes along with basically all the stuff we came up with to this point and to me it's a convincing explanation.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
I asked @protogoth about that as she holds the biggest and most coherent Romulan lore from combined sources and she told me that the Alliance is the most plausible explanation as well. The T'liss seemed unable to allow for warp-drive under cloak, which uses Scotties' line tha tthe Romulan ship only runs on impulse for a more plausible explanation than having the Romulans cross all the distance with impulse power. Further the Romulan embleme seen in "The Enterprise Incident" is supposed to reflect the alliance.
I like that explanation as it goes along with basically all the stuff we came up with to this point and to me it's a convincing explanation.
I believe I got into this in the Romulan Forums a while ago. The problem is it's impossible for some people to separate canon and non-canon argument when coming up with justifications for the Alliance.
Their argument starts off with the conclusion that the Alliance happened and that any evidence is therefore evidence for that.
Take that point about the lack of power on the T'liss, it's indicative of nothing more than the T'liss lacking power, it says nothing of other Romulan ships, other sources Romulans could get power-plants or other means by which Romulans could acquire D7s. It starts with the assumption that there was an Alliance and then states all evidence leads to it.
How the Romulans got D7s and how the Klingons got cloaks is nothing more than speculation, even my arguments are nothing more. All canon has to say on the matter is:
'Intelligence reports Romulans now using Klingon design' (The Enterprise Incident)
This is evidence of Romulans in D7s, nothing more.
'A new Klingon alliance with the Romulans' (Reunion)
Referring to the previous one i.e. 'they killed my parents in an attack on Khitomer at a time when they were supposed to be our allies' ("The Neutral Zone)
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
How the Romulans got D7s and how the Klingons got cloaks is nothing more than speculation, even my arguments are nothing more. All canon has to say on the matter is:
'Intelligence reports Romulans now using Klingon design' (The Enterprise Incident)
This is evidence of Romulans in D7s, nothing more.
'A new Klingon alliance with the Romulans' (Reunion)
Referring to the previous one i.e. 'they killed my parents in an attack on Khitomer at a time when they were supposed to be our allies' ("The Neutral Zone)
Yes, I know. Did we ever do anything else than coming up with speculation and our interpretation of events?
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
How the Romulans got D7s and how the Klingons got cloaks is nothing more than speculation, even my arguments are nothing more. All canon has to say on the matter is:
'Intelligence reports Romulans now using Klingon design' (The Enterprise Incident)
This is evidence of Romulans in D7s, nothing more.
'A new Klingon alliance with the Romulans' (Reunion)
Referring to the previous one i.e. 'they killed my parents in an attack on Khitomer at a time when they were supposed to be our allies' ("The Neutral Zone)
Yes, I know. Did we ever do anything else than coming up with speculation and our interpretation of events?
Not so much us. I enjoy speculation like this, I just don't like it when people can't distinguish between canon and non-canon (azurianstar mainly).
'There is no evidence in canon for such an alliance but if there were what would be the reasons?' That's how I'm looking at it.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
I can't see much evidence of people blurring canon and non-canon, but it happens and I see it similiarly to you, I like people to mention if they talk about canon, "headcanon" or speculation because I always think it's nicer towards people not familiar with the material.
For the reasons, as beens tated I like the interpretation based canonically on the evidence we have that D7s were just superior to Romulan vessels (non-canonically Axanar is a rather nice take on the superiority of the D7 until the Constitution was ready) in a way that the technology trade actually benefitted Romulus. I also like the alliance-embleme theory since in early TNG the Klingons had a Klingon-Federation alliance-embleme on their ships as well, it seems like something Rodenberry wanted to do.
Azurianstar is right in so far as that a Klingon-Romulan alliance is canonical fact, it's mentioned and implied two times. Granted, we don't know when, but that's where interpretation comes in and I think it holds water.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Azurianstar is right in so far as that a Klingon-Romulan alliance is canonical fact, it's mentioned and implied two times. Granted, we don't know when, but that's where interpretation comes in and I think it holds water.
I know there was at least 1 mentioned, but as I pointed it out, it was sometime after ST VI (after the Kitomer Accords) not during TOS.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
'There is no evidence in canon for such an alliance but if there were what would be the reasons?' That's how I'm looking at it.
But there is evidence in canon for such an alliance. You've even mentioned the evidence, while admitting that your take on it is speculation. Actually, you are interpreting the evidence, just as everyone else does, except for the fact that you are interpreting it in a way which is counter to the way almost everyone else interprets it. You ask "what would be the reasons" for such an alliance, but this must surely be rhetorical, since you reject any attempt to supply the "reasons" for an alliance because an alliance does not fit your "theft" idea, in spite of the fact that Trekkers as a community have, for decades, gone with this view of an alliance in the late 2260s, and (note the "and") soft canon has involved the idea, and even more relevantly for you two, since neither of you seems willing to do aught beyond "the letter of the law," it's more consistent with hard canon. Your "theft" idea requires the multiplication of more entities than the alliance idea, and thus needs a shave. *holds up a razor with the brand name "Ockham" emblazoned on the handle*
'There is no evidence in canon for such an alliance but if there were what would be the reasons?' That's how I'm looking at it.
But there is evidence in canon for such an alliance. You've even mentioned the evidence, while admitting that your take on it is speculation. Actually, you are interpreting the evidence, just as everyone else does, except for the fact that you are interpreting it in a way which is counter to the way almost everyone else interprets it. You ask "what would be the reasons" for such an alliance, but this must surely be rhetorical, since you reject any attempt to supply the "reasons" for an alliance because an alliance does not fit your "theft" idea, in spite of the fact that Trekkers as a community have, for decades, gone with this view of an alliance in the late 2260s, and (note the "and") soft canon has involved the idea, and even more relevantly for you two, since neither of you seems willing to do aught beyond "the letter of the law," it's more consistent with hard canon. Your "theft" idea requires the multiplication of more entities than the alliance idea, and thus needs a shave. *holds up a razor with the brand name "Ockham" emblazoned on the handle*
As I pointed out above, the evidence is that they were allied after the KAs, i.e. well after TOS.
Just because it is popular view or has been held for a long time does not make it correct.
Again...
'Intelligence reports Romulans now using Klingon design' (The Enterprise Incident)
Evidence of Romulans in D7s, nothing more.
'A new Klingon alliance with the Romulans' (Reunion)
Referring to the previous one i.e. 'they killed my parents in an attack on Khitomer at a time when they were supposed to be our allies' ("The Neutral Zone)
The alliance is separate to the reasons for Romulans possessing D7s in TOS, you yourself are unwilling to apply Ockhams razor as you already believe the D7s came into the Romulans possession through trading with the Klingons in which D7s were swapped for cloaking devices.
I have already pointed out numerous examples of much simpler reasons for how Romulans get D7s and for how Klingons get cloaks. In order for this trade to have happened you need to convolute the situation somewhat as well as going out of character for both races.
I have always and will always only ever use canon positions, there is no canon reason as to how Romulans came across D7s or how Klingons came to have cloaking devices. There is canon evidence of an alliance between the two powers, but it is not evidence of a TOS era alliance or of trades. books are not canon, deeply held beliefs in such books that has lasted decades is not canon.
If you have any canon proof, by all means point it out. I've posted it all by now.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
'There is no evidence in canon for such an alliance but if there were what would be the reasons?' That's how I'm looking at it.
But there is evidence in canon for such an alliance. You've even mentioned the evidence, while admitting that your take on it is speculation. Actually, you are interpreting the evidence, just as everyone else does, except for the fact that you are interpreting it in a way which is counter to the way almost everyone else interprets it. You ask "what would be the reasons" for such an alliance, but this must surely be rhetorical, since you reject any attempt to supply the "reasons" for an alliance because an alliance does not fit your "theft" idea, in spite of the fact that Trekkers as a community have, for decades, gone with this view of an alliance in the late 2260s, and (note the "and") soft canon has involved the idea, and even more relevantly for you two, since neither of you seems willing to do aught beyond "the letter of the law," it's more consistent with hard canon. Your "theft" idea requires the multiplication of more entities than the alliance idea, and thus needs a shave. *holds up a razor with the brand name "Ockham" emblazoned on the handle*
As I pointed out above, the evidence is that they were allied after the KAs, i.e. well after TOS.
On the contrary, that's your interpretation of the evidence. It is obviously not the only possible interpretation, seeing as how almost everyone else interprets it to refer to the TOS era alliance, as well as a later second alliance (note that Worf's statement does not preclude there having been more than one previous alliance).
Just because it is popular view or has been held for a long time does not make it correct.
That is certainly true. However, let me offer an analogy from my own field (or more precisely, the milieu in which my field generally exists).
Academia is notoriously conservative. Academia is also notoriously subject to radical alteration. These are especially true in the field of Archaeology (not my field, but one in which I have considerable interest), which is a science, but one which involves extensive interpretation of the evidence, and indeed, requires such interpretation due to the nature of the beast. The reasons for these things are, I believe, relevant here. Academia involves a concept of "orthodoxy." Received wisdom within academic fields becomes ensconced to such an extent that some academics will categorically reject any challenges by appeal to the received wisdom itself (which is at least sometimes an example of the Petitio Principii fallacy, but in other cases is an appeal to coherence and consistency). Nevertheless, newcomers can and do find evidence which was previously overlooked or ignored, and which may be worthy of consideration (for example, to return to the field of Archaeology, received wisdom presently still insists that all examples of so-called "Bog People" are "evidence of human sacrifice," and yet, since the dawn of this millennium, scholars have begun to point to a passage in Tacitus' "Germania" which contains the only contemporary account of anything similar and asserts that the practice was a form of capital punishment, while other scholars have begun to question some of the interpretations of the evidence like the view that Lindow Man was garroted -- suggesting instead that Lindow Man had worn a leather neckcord which, in the mud of the bog, shrank/tightened around his neck). Newcomers may also, however, simply be young upstart hotshots trying to make a name for themselves by finding a weak point to tear at, without any evidential basis for tearing at it. So there are both good and bad reasons for both perspectives.
The point to this is that the alliance is part of the "received wisdom" of Trekkers as a community. This "orthodoxy" may need to be challenged, but you have given no reason(s) to consider your interpretation of the evidence any more practical or likely than the interpretation favored by current "received wisdom."
'Intelligence reports Romulans now using Klingon design' (The Enterprise Incident)
Evidence of Romulans in D7s, nothing more.
'A new Klingon alliance with the Romulans' (Reunion)
Referring to the previous one i.e. 'they killed my parents in an attack on Khitomer at a time when they were supposed to be our allies' ("The Neutral Zone)
That's all fine except for one point: your assumption that there was only one previous alliance. There's nothing in canon which says there was only one alliance.
JThe alliance is separate to the reasons for Romulans possessing D7s in TOS, you yourself are unwilling to apply Ockhams razor as you already believe the D7s came into the Romulans possession through trading with the Klingons in which D7s were swapped for cloaking devices.
The alliance is separate from Romulans having D7s in TOS how?
Let's just have a look at some evidence you have not previously mentioned ...
Previous Romulan designation was shown only by the large raptor on the bottom of the T'liss in BoT.
Why would the Romulans, after well over a century of using birds-of-prey as their symbol, suddenly start using something which looks very much like a Klingon logo -- a logo, it should be noted, which they only used during this time period at which they were also using D7s?
I have already pointed out numerous examples of much simpler reasons for how Romulans get D7s and for how Klingons get cloaks. In order for this trade to have happened you need to convolute the situation somewhat as well as going out of character for both races.
Contrary to what laypeople believe, the simplest explanation is not what Ockham's razor means.
I have always and will always only ever use canon positions, there is no canon reason as to how Romulans came across D7s or how Klingons came to have cloaking devices. There is canon evidence of an alliance between the two powers, but it is not evidence of a TOS era alliance or of trades. books are not canon, deeply held beliefs in such books that has lasted decades is not canon.
If you have any canon proof, by all means point it out. I've posted it all by now.
No, your assertion that the evidence does not apply to the TOS era is assumption. And the imagery I have included in the links above, along with my comments about it, is also evidence -- evidence which, it should be noted, you have not posted. Have fun trying to explain that away.
1. The simplest explanation IS that Romulans and Klingons had an alliance, trading technology for ships. Dancing around the edges just to avoid making that leap, while not wrong, is the more complex route.
On the contrary, that's your interpretation of the evidence. It is obviously not the only possible interpretation, seeing as how almost everyone else interprets it to refer to the TOS era alliance, as well as a later second alliance (note that Worf's statement does not preclude there having been more than one previous alliance).
It doesn't matter how everybody else interprets it as they aren't interpreting the evidence, they're reciting the common non-canon statements from decades of books and comics and whatnot.
That is certainly true. However, let me offer an analogy from my own field (or more precisely, the milieu in which my field generally exists).
Academia is notoriously conservative. Academia is also notoriously subject to radical alteration. These are especially true in the field of Archaeology (not my field, but one in which I have considerable interest), which is a science, but one which involves extensive interpretation of the evidence, and indeed, requires such interpretation due to the nature of the beast. The reasons for these things are, I believe, relevant here. Academia involves a concept of "orthodoxy." Received wisdom within academic fields becomes ensconced to such an extent that some academics will categorically reject any challenges by appeal to the received wisdom itself (which is at least sometimes an example of the Petitio Principii fallacy, but in other cases is an appeal to coherence and consistency). Nevertheless, newcomers can and do find evidence which was previously overlooked or ignored, and which may be worthy of consideration (for example, to return to the field of Archaeology, received wisdom presently still insists that all examples of so-called "Bog People" are "evidence of human sacrifice," and yet, since the dawn of this millennium, scholars have begun to point to a passage in Tacitus' "Germania" which contains the only contemporary account of anything similar and asserts that the practice was a form of capital punishment, while other scholars have begun to question some of the interpretations of the evidence like the view that Lindow Man was garroted -- suggesting instead that Lindow Man had worn a leather neckcord which, in the mud of the bog, shrank/tightened around his neck). Newcomers may also, however, simply be young upstart hotshots trying to make a name for themselves by finding a weak point to tear at, without any evidential basis for tearing at it. So there are both good and bad reasons for both perspectives.
The point to this is that the alliance is part of the "received wisdom" of Trekkers as a community. This "orthodoxy" may need to be challenged, but you have given no reason(s) to consider your interpretation of the evidence any more practical or likely than the interpretation favored by current "received wisdom."
As someone who's field is archaeology I see no flaws in the argument except for the fact it doesn't apply here. This is not different interpretations of the same evidence, this is different sets of evidence (canon and non-canon) and people desperately trying to twist either into their already preconceived supposition.
That's all fine except for one point: your assumption that there was only one previous alliance. There's nothing in canon which says there was only one alliance.
The alliance is separate from Romulans having D7s in TOS how?
You are correct however it is clear from established characterisation that the Romulans and Klingons are enemies and alliance at all is a miracle.
The reason I separate them is because the fact that the two powers have allied in the past is beyond question. There is however no evidence to support them having traded so much as insults never mind ships and cloaks.
Riker refers to a past alliance, we have evidence of one singular alliance. Either speculation (prior alliances or none) is still speculation, but even if you have proof of another one it doesn't provide evidence for the specific one you're proposing.
Let's just have a look at some evidence you have not previously mentioned ...
Previous Romulan designation was shown only by the large raptor on the bottom of the T'liss in BoT.
Why would the Romulans, after well over a century of using birds-of-prey as their symbol, suddenly start using something which looks very much like a Klingon logo -- a logo, it should be noted, which they only used during this time period at which they were also using D7s?
That's better, actual evidence.
Interesting, well the most obvious answer is that the Raptor didn't exist BtS yet, but in universe it could just be another Klingon symbol, it's on the inside of the D7 not the outside, for all we know it could be the Klingon symbol for armoury. If it appears on the T'liss let me know. It's interesting but not conclusive of anything.
No, your assertion that the evidence does not apply to the TOS era is assumption. And the imagery I have included in the links above, along with my comments about it, is also evidence -- evidence which, it should be noted, you have not posted. Have fun trying to explain that away.
Yes it is assumption, that there was only one, this assumption is based on dialogue and characterisation, yours (that there was more than one) is based upon a logo. If that's your personal standard of evidence, by all means, go ahead.
The simplest explanation IS that Romulans and Klingons had an alliance, trading technology for ships. Dancing around the edges just to avoid making that leap, while not wrong, is the more complex route.
No it isn't. It requires to many compromises with the established characters of both the Klingons and the Romulans. It's only ever brought up because people already believe it, so it's not the most simple at all it's just simple to accept it.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
The simplest explanation IS that Romulans and Klingons had an alliance, trading technology for ships. Dancing around the edges just to avoid making that leap, while not wrong, is the more complex route.
No it isn't. It requires to many compromises with the established characters of both the Klingons and the Romulans. It's only ever brought up because people already believe it, so it's not the most simple at all it's just simple to accept it.
Yeah no. The hatred Klingons have for Romulans is often overstated. Who was one of the major players in the civil war started by House Duras? SELA!!! Sela was backing Duras's attempt to become Klingon Emperor.
Also... what evidence is there that the Klingon hatred of Romulans predates the Khitomer massacre in the mid 2300s?
none, because the characteristics of both races established from TNG onwards is VASTLY different from how they were portrayed in TOS (and presumably TAS, but since i never watched that series, i wouldn't know)
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
The simplest explanation IS that Romulans and Klingons had an alliance, trading technology for ships. Dancing around the edges just to avoid making that leap, while not wrong, is the more complex route.
No it isn't. It requires to many compromises with the established characters of both the Klingons and the Romulans. It's only ever brought up because people already believe it, so it's not the most simple at all it's just simple to accept it.
Yeah no. The hatred Klingons have for Romulans is often overstated. Who was one of the major players in the civil war started by House Duras? SELA!!! Sela was backing Duras's attempt to become Klingon Emperor.
Also... what evidence is there that the Klingon hatred of Romulans predates the Khitomer massacre in the mid 2300s?
Duras simply wanted to be emperor more than he hated Romulans. The problem isn't so much the outright hatred, it's more the position as enemies, they are both large militaristic imperial powers in close proximity to one-another, antagonism is natural, think USSR and TRIBBLE Germany (yes I know they were allies to begin with but they didn't trade nukes for jet planes). Their problem in later series is not simply due to their dislike of each other on a personal level, it's also the mutually incompatible aims of both Empires, if it wasn't for the Federation being in-between the two, I'm sure it would have been a shooty war by now.
none, because the characteristics of both races established from TNG onwards is VASTLY different from how they were portrayed in TOS (and presumably TAS, but since i never watched that series, i wouldn't know)
Klingons, yes, Romulans no. Despite Spock's Romulan father being basically Kirk with pointed ears, the Romulans as a whole are similar to their DS9 portrayal. The Klingons of TOS are even more intelligent than the ones from TNG who would probably give away a Nech'var for a dog biscuit.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
none, because the characteristics of both races established from TNG onwards is VASTLY different from how they were portrayed in TOS (and presumably TAS, but since i never watched that series, i wouldn't know)
They don't directly interact, like ever. I can only think of one episode(Time Trap) where both races were seen together and in that one they didn't even talk. Although.... I suppose you could consider that a minor method of confirming they didn't hate each other since they ate dinner together without trying to kill each other.... or even yelling at each other.
Comments
There really are no flames in this thread, the only volatile factor removed itself from the thread
I concur with your posting. A T6 B'Rel and a T6 D7/K'Tinga could both make me cosnider to create a new KDF character, although I still save for a T6 Nebula first.
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Michael Okuda disagrees.
Can you point to a source? From the top of my porcine head I cannot remember any mention of an allience that would lead to the B'Rel being a Romulan design used by the Klingons. We have a presumed alliance during TOS that lead to Romulans using D7 class ships, possibly in exchange for cloaking technology (speculation) but that's the only possible hint of an alliance I know of.
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Star Trek Encyclopedia under the Romulan Star Empire. Says there was an alliance in 2268, where technology was shared. But Mr. Artan's trolling saying Okuda is wrong.
Which I also have to laugh at his pointing out how the Klingon BoP was originaly Romulan, and yet in canon it's now confirmed the Klingon BoP's been around for hundreds of years. Oh the hypocrisy.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Maybe I missed something, but I think Artan just pointed out that the B'Rel was originally, out-of-universe, a Romulan ship and that is correct. ST III was supposed to feature Romulans and the B'Rel is actually designed sporting a Romulan pattern. Also the designation "Bird of Prey" is a Romulan one. In-universe you are right, though, there's no hint at the design being stolen or traded (after they decided to use Klingons instead of Romulans). The D7s in TOS however are fact, but an alliance has never been spelled out, we only can interpret Worf's "another Klingon-Romulan alliance?" in conjunction with the D7 appearance.
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It's canon that there was previous Klingon-Romulan alliances, Worf even mentions the Romulans supposed to be their allies during the Khitomer Massacre.
And why Romulans used the D7? Simple, their BoPs sucked and they needed something fast, so they worked out an agreement with the Klingons. Warships to counter the Federation, at the same time the ship powers their cloaking devices more efficiently. It buys them time until they could build their own. In a way it parallels the Chinese and the Russians against the US during the Cold War.
What I was pointing out is that he freely references the origins of the K-BoP, but purposely ignores Okuda. I just find that hypocritical.
And sure it never was directly spoken on screen, but Trek fans accepted there was something going on 50 years ago. During that time, nothing ever was presented that countered it. Instead, we seen more and more on-off relationships with the Klingons and the Romulans. So to say it never happened is just trolling.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
I don't care if the glowing ghost of Gene Roddenberry himself descends from Sha Ka Ree and says there was a TOS era alliance between the Klingons and Romulans whereby cloaking devices were traded for D7s. If it wasn't put into an episode it never happened.
Do you really need it broken down again?
That's it. Two quotes and that suddenly makes it canon? Note the quotes don't even refer to this supposed alliance.
What about the in-universe logic of the alliance?
Klingon gains
Romulan gains
So in-universe it's a silly idea.
What about the traded items themselves?
D7s
Seems like 3 is the most Romulan, especially considering the behind the scenes idea that the T'liss was based on the Emmet or Warp Delta type ships of Earth (non-canon I know as it isn't mentioned onscreen, but they do share a resemblance) 1 can be dismissed as the Romulans are not brain-dead.
Cloaks
Which is most Klingon? Well 2 and 3 obviously. 4 is a possibility for the TOS Klingons (hell even the AGT Klingons invented time travel (Endgame).
1 can be dismissed as the Romulans are not brain-dead.
In addition: The Romulans were using D7s through TOS and TAS, so for at least 4-5 years, the Klingons didn't cloak until TWOK, some 10 or so years later, even then it was in a BoP and not a D7 (or its refit).
So it is not supported by canon and would't likely happen in canon due to story-logic.
So you want to try a different approach and try refute any of it or just accuse me of Trolling because your favourite fanfiction isn't canon?
I never said the B'rel was Romulan, I said it was intended to be, same as I pointed out the only reason the Romulans use D7s is because of issues with the T'liss model. It's hardly hypocritical because I'm only referring to the behind the scenes stuff, not pretending it's canon.
So what? You can accept whatever headcanon you like, official canon disagrees with you and every other fan who believes in the alliance. There is no evidence for it, there is evidence against it, conclusion, the hypothesis is rejected and the null hypothesis retained, there was no alliance.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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For all we know the 7 or so Romulan painted D7s are all the D7s the Romulans had. Sending them on patrol near the Klingon border all painted in their best Romulan finery is a good way to stick it to them.
But it wasn't. The Constitution was equal to at least 3 D7s, I can't remember the episode by either Kirk or Sulu was confident about their chances of survival whilst surrounded by D7s.
Which reminds me of another point: The Romulans were using D7s through TOS and TAS, so for at least 4-5 years, the Klingons didn't cloak until TWOK, some 10 or so years later, even then it was in a BoP and not a D7 (or its refit).
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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The D7 is presumably older than the constitution. I could have been more clearer, Axanar's timeframe is set prior to the launch of the Constitution. The D7 was the most advanced ship, which should catapult the Klingon ahead to take Axanar before the Constitution launches. As I said, it's a fan project but I like that interpretation of the events (as much as I despise official canon basically since "Generations"
Canonically we have nothing of that, but Romulans using D7 - if they captured those or traded, why should they use inferior starships? They had a reason to do so and I interpret it as the D7 being superior. It could be argued the Klingons tempered with the cloak and made them work on their ships which took time. But it's all speculation, we don't know any of that.
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The biggest problem with the D7 is the TMP style refit (k't'inga) in ENT, if that were a D6 (as originally intended) it would suggest a D7 of similar age to the Constitution, as it stands now, it's impossible to get an accurate read on anything about the D7.
I'm happy to believe the D7 is superior to the T'liss, to me that means the Romulans either steel the plans for them or steal a small flotilla of them, send a few back to Romulus to study then send the rest out along the NZ to show the Klingons who has the bigger... um, feet
Unfortunately we have no Romulan ships from the T'liss to the D'D, that's some 150 years where we never see if they continue using the D7 or make their own ships. I still find it hard to belive a race that built the D'D and Scim needed the D7s at all.
That's another reason why I think the cloak is Klingon in origin (or stolen from the other two sources I mentioned), maybe they could only get it to work on the tiny B'rel and not their bigger D7s. The Suliban and Xyrillian ships were small, as small as the B'rel. The Romulan cloak, on the other hand, was a USB device and could be easily plugged into the Constitution, that's something I can see Kor plugging into his D7 (The G'roth?) if it were traded to them.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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I like that explanation as it goes along with basically all the stuff we came up with to this point and to me it's a convincing explanation.
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I believe I got into this in the Romulan Forums a while ago. The problem is it's impossible for some people to separate canon and non-canon argument when coming up with justifications for the Alliance.
Their argument starts off with the conclusion that the Alliance happened and that any evidence is therefore evidence for that.
Take that point about the lack of power on the T'liss, it's indicative of nothing more than the T'liss lacking power, it says nothing of other Romulan ships, other sources Romulans could get power-plants or other means by which Romulans could acquire D7s. It starts with the assumption that there was an Alliance and then states all evidence leads to it.
How the Romulans got D7s and how the Klingons got cloaks is nothing more than speculation, even my arguments are nothing more. All canon has to say on the matter is:
- 'Intelligence reports Romulans now using Klingon design' (The Enterprise Incident)
- This is evidence of Romulans in D7s, nothing more.
- 'A new Klingon alliance with the Romulans' (Reunion)
- Referring to the previous one i.e. 'they killed my parents in an attack on Khitomer at a time when they were supposed to be our allies' ("The Neutral Zone)
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Yes, I know. Did we ever do anything else than coming up with speculation and our interpretation of events?
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Not so much us. I enjoy speculation like this, I just don't like it when people can't distinguish between canon and non-canon (azurianstar mainly).
'There is no evidence in canon for such an alliance but if there were what would be the reasons?' That's how I'm looking at it.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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For the reasons, as beens tated I like the interpretation based canonically on the evidence we have that D7s were just superior to Romulan vessels (non-canonically Axanar is a rather nice take on the superiority of the D7 until the Constitution was ready) in a way that the technology trade actually benefitted Romulus. I also like the alliance-embleme theory since in early TNG the Klingons had a Klingon-Federation alliance-embleme on their ships as well, it seems like something Rodenberry wanted to do.
Azurianstar is right in so far as that a Klingon-Romulan alliance is canonical fact, it's mentioned and implied two times. Granted, we don't know when, but that's where interpretation comes in and I think it holds water.
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I know there was at least 1 mentioned, but as I pointed it out, it was sometime after ST VI (after the Kitomer Accords) not during TOS.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
But there is evidence in canon for such an alliance. You've even mentioned the evidence, while admitting that your take on it is speculation. Actually, you are interpreting the evidence, just as everyone else does, except for the fact that you are interpreting it in a way which is counter to the way almost everyone else interprets it. You ask "what would be the reasons" for such an alliance, but this must surely be rhetorical, since you reject any attempt to supply the "reasons" for an alliance because an alliance does not fit your "theft" idea, in spite of the fact that Trekkers as a community have, for decades, gone with this view of an alliance in the late 2260s, and (note the "and") soft canon has involved the idea, and even more relevantly for you two, since neither of you seems willing to do aught beyond "the letter of the law," it's more consistent with hard canon. Your "theft" idea requires the multiplication of more entities than the alliance idea, and thus needs a shave. *holds up a razor with the brand name "Ockham" emblazoned on the handle*
As I pointed out above, the evidence is that they were allied after the KAs, i.e. well after TOS.
Just because it is popular view or has been held for a long time does not make it correct.
Again...
The alliance is separate to the reasons for Romulans possessing D7s in TOS, you yourself are unwilling to apply Ockhams razor as you already believe the D7s came into the Romulans possession through trading with the Klingons in which D7s were swapped for cloaking devices.
I have already pointed out numerous examples of much simpler reasons for how Romulans get D7s and for how Klingons get cloaks. In order for this trade to have happened you need to convolute the situation somewhat as well as going out of character for both races.
I have always and will always only ever use canon positions, there is no canon reason as to how Romulans came across D7s or how Klingons came to have cloaking devices. There is canon evidence of an alliance between the two powers, but it is not evidence of a TOS era alliance or of trades. books are not canon, deeply held beliefs in such books that has lasted decades is not canon.
If you have any canon proof, by all means point it out. I've posted it all by now.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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On the contrary, that's your interpretation of the evidence. It is obviously not the only possible interpretation, seeing as how almost everyone else interprets it to refer to the TOS era alliance, as well as a later second alliance (note that Worf's statement does not preclude there having been more than one previous alliance).
That is certainly true. However, let me offer an analogy from my own field (or more precisely, the milieu in which my field generally exists).
Academia is notoriously conservative. Academia is also notoriously subject to radical alteration. These are especially true in the field of Archaeology (not my field, but one in which I have considerable interest), which is a science, but one which involves extensive interpretation of the evidence, and indeed, requires such interpretation due to the nature of the beast. The reasons for these things are, I believe, relevant here. Academia involves a concept of "orthodoxy." Received wisdom within academic fields becomes ensconced to such an extent that some academics will categorically reject any challenges by appeal to the received wisdom itself (which is at least sometimes an example of the Petitio Principii fallacy, but in other cases is an appeal to coherence and consistency). Nevertheless, newcomers can and do find evidence which was previously overlooked or ignored, and which may be worthy of consideration (for example, to return to the field of Archaeology, received wisdom presently still insists that all examples of so-called "Bog People" are "evidence of human sacrifice," and yet, since the dawn of this millennium, scholars have begun to point to a passage in Tacitus' "Germania" which contains the only contemporary account of anything similar and asserts that the practice was a form of capital punishment, while other scholars have begun to question some of the interpretations of the evidence like the view that Lindow Man was garroted -- suggesting instead that Lindow Man had worn a leather neckcord which, in the mud of the bog, shrank/tightened around his neck). Newcomers may also, however, simply be young upstart hotshots trying to make a name for themselves by finding a weak point to tear at, without any evidential basis for tearing at it. So there are both good and bad reasons for both perspectives.
The point to this is that the alliance is part of the "received wisdom" of Trekkers as a community. This "orthodoxy" may need to be challenged, but you have given no reason(s) to consider your interpretation of the evidence any more practical or likely than the interpretation favored by current "received wisdom."
That's all fine except for one point: your assumption that there was only one previous alliance. There's nothing in canon which says there was only one alliance.
The alliance is separate from Romulans having D7s in TOS how?
Let's just have a look at some evidence you have not previously mentioned ...
The original Klingon logo:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2212/1527550898_958131629c.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2317/1526682975_f643c59234.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3358/3486385082_282cd6e047.jpg
In TAS:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2198/1527551142_6e75a00eb6.jpg
Meanwhile, the logo seen in TEI:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2272/1527551332_8b5b6a0041.jpg
Previous Romulan designation was shown only by the large raptor on the bottom of the T'liss in BoT.
Why would the Romulans, after well over a century of using birds-of-prey as their symbol, suddenly start using something which looks very much like a Klingon logo -- a logo, it should be noted, which they only used during this time period at which they were also using D7s?
Contrary to what laypeople believe, the simplest explanation is not what Ockham's razor means.
No, your assertion that the evidence does not apply to the TOS era is assumption. And the imagery I have included in the links above, along with my comments about it, is also evidence -- evidence which, it should be noted, you have not posted. Have fun trying to explain that away.
Memenda, t'Charvon khir. Haeuui'i arhem.
1. The simplest explanation IS that Romulans and Klingons had an alliance, trading technology for ships. Dancing around the edges just to avoid making that leap, while not wrong, is the more complex route.
2. Why are we talking about this again?
It doesn't matter how everybody else interprets it as they aren't interpreting the evidence, they're reciting the common non-canon statements from decades of books and comics and whatnot.
As someone who's field is archaeology I see no flaws in the argument except for the fact it doesn't apply here. This is not different interpretations of the same evidence, this is different sets of evidence (canon and non-canon) and people desperately trying to twist either into their already preconceived supposition.
You are correct however it is clear from established characterisation that the Romulans and Klingons are enemies and alliance at all is a miracle.
The reason I separate them is because the fact that the two powers have allied in the past is beyond question. There is however no evidence to support them having traded so much as insults never mind ships and cloaks.
Riker refers to a past alliance, we have evidence of one singular alliance. Either speculation (prior alliances or none) is still speculation, but even if you have proof of another one it doesn't provide evidence for the specific one you're proposing.
That's better, actual evidence.
Interesting, well the most obvious answer is that the Raptor didn't exist BtS yet, but in universe it could just be another Klingon symbol, it's on the inside of the D7 not the outside, for all we know it could be the Klingon symbol for armoury. If it appears on the T'liss let me know. It's interesting but not conclusive of anything.
The smallest amount of assumptions necessary should be made towards a conclusion.
Yes it is assumption, that there was only one, this assumption is based on dialogue and characterisation, yours (that there was more than one) is based upon a logo. If that's your personal standard of evidence, by all means, go ahead.
?
No it isn't. It requires to many compromises with the established characters of both the Klingons and the Romulans. It's only ever brought up because people already believe it, so it's not the most simple at all it's just simple to accept it.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Also... what evidence is there that the Klingon hatred of Romulans predates the Khitomer massacre in the mid 2300s?
My character Tsin'xing
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Duras simply wanted to be emperor more than he hated Romulans. The problem isn't so much the outright hatred, it's more the position as enemies, they are both large militaristic imperial powers in close proximity to one-another, antagonism is natural, think USSR and TRIBBLE Germany (yes I know they were allies to begin with but they didn't trade nukes for jet planes). Their problem in later series is not simply due to their dislike of each other on a personal level, it's also the mutually incompatible aims of both Empires, if it wasn't for the Federation being in-between the two, I'm sure it would have been a shooty war by now.
Klingons, yes, Romulans no. Despite Spock's Romulan father being basically Kirk with pointed ears, the Romulans as a whole are similar to their DS9 portrayal. The Klingons of TOS are even more intelligent than the ones from TNG who would probably give away a Nech'var for a dog biscuit.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
My character Tsin'xing