I think science is the best it's ever been right now. A lot of old designs have been outdated as the game progressed and science has its fair share. The trouble is that things like disables could very quickly become OP if not careful. Cryptic has had the past bite them in the TRIBBLE on so many occasions that they are scared to death of drastic changes and rightly so.
Some things probably shouldn't even be in the game and I'm inclined to say disables are one of them. Honestly, the main problem with this game is that it forces you to specialize in one thing so of course people will pick the most powerful thing. The game should allow you to have a small handful of specialties instead of just one. The Krenim consoles are a good step but I'm afraid a mechanic overhaul of the entire game would be in order for a permanent fix.
Several problems have this same root issue. Torpedoes not being used is anther symptom. What if each ship type had secondary console slots? For example, escorts have five tactical slots for any consoles and a certain number of secondary tactical slots for projectile boosting among other things. Secondary slots wouldn't be able to equip universals. Science has some fields that make good primaries like Drain and Exotic Damage while disables and confuses would make good secondary skills. You can equip any kind of science console in the primary slots but secondary slots only take certain types and won't fit universals. Also a max of five consoles of each type can be equipped to avoid super torp boats among other things. This would also differentiate each ship type making it harder for the lines between classes to be blurred.
This is the kind of thinking which leads to marginalization. It would be far easier to correct the issues with power creep, not by introducing more power creep in other areas, but by identifying the builds and powers which are over-used and reducing their effectiveness. What I call Power Recall would counter power creep. If over 50% of players use BFAW, then it demonstrates that BFAW needs to be restrained, not that specific counters to BFAW need to be buffed.
When any one build becomes dominant it is because players have identified it as the most successful one. Restrain that specific build, and suddenly others become more viable and attractive. Even more: players will begin to experiment with various combinations until they discover one which works for them, and, *gasp,* we might have diversity once again!
You will still be able to make cookie-cutter builds which perform as well as most, but instead of only star shaped cookies, you will have hearts, flowers, and even gingerbread man shapes from which to choose.
I would like to see science with a stronger healing abilities, been able to enhance other ships shields, been able to re-energize other ships shields, been able to dispatch repair teams (made of drones) to repair ships hulls for a period of time no just a quick hull repair, but maybe a repair that extends for 1 minute or 2 or 3, etc stuff like that, an enhancement of weapons abilities via buff etc etc
Also maybe giving some races better traits towards science like for example the Vulcans. Maybe this race could have a special Science trait that others would never have.
I always viewed healing (both hull and shields) should be more of an Engineering focus than Science. In the shows, it's the Engineers that deals with ship damage, energy and shields.
The thing is that as it is right now engineer are doing the DPS and basically science has been relegated to a mediocre healer, we need to have a strong development of skills so Science becomes the third leg of the Trinity.
Seek and ye shall find. Ask and ye shall receive. Rabboni
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" (Benjamin Franklin).
Most unexpectedly, this turned into a flame-fest! Closed it goes!. /sigh What flamefestery is this? pwlaughingtrendy
The thing is that as it is right now engineer are doing the DPS and basically science has been relegated to a mediocre healer, we need to have a strong development of skills so Science becomes the third leg of the Trinity.
I don't think it's Engineers that are doing the DPS. It are Tacs. They might be flying Cruisers occasional, but that doesn't make them Engineers.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
The thing is that as it is right now engineer are doing the DPS and basically science has been relegated to a mediocre healer, we need to have a strong development of skills so Science becomes the third leg of the Trinity.
Science are just as capable of DPS'ing as Engineers. They are actually pretty close. The top Engineer in the DPS charts has 101,160DPS while the top 1 in Science has 112,298DPS. So it isn't really true that Science are lagging behind in terms of DPS.
Science are just as capable of DPS'ing as Engineers. They are actually pretty close. The top Engineer in the DPS charts has 101,160DPS while the top 1 in Science has 112,298DPS. So it isn't really true that Science are lagging behind in terms of DPS.
Between energy damage 2nd deflectors, sensor analysis, and all other other stuff, yeah, you can make a Janeway type destroyer science ship. The problem is, when a science ship is spewing up all that DPS, it's not acting like a science ship. Hope that result wasn't with Kemocite since it's bugged.
I've been thinking about this, as I have the standard PrtG and the Grav build, and have been working a sci toon for a drain build.
I wonder if it could be something as simple as assigning a flowcaps bonus to sci captains. Make it scale to level of course.
Engineers could have something to help with Hull heals, while Tac's can still get an innate bonus to Energy weapons.
Just my first thoughts here.
Another example of correcting power creep with more power creep. The easy fix is to pull back the abilities which are OP, not to buff the others. The endless cycle of buff, rebuff, and superbuff is at fault, and expanding this into other aspects of the build will only make it worse.
I've been thinking about this, as I have the standard PrtG and the Grav build, and have been working a sci toon for a drain build.
I wonder if it could be something as simple as assigning a flowcaps bonus to sci captains. Make it scale to level of course.
Engineers could have something to help with Hull heals, while Tac's can still get an innate bonus to Energy weapons.
Just my first thoughts here.
Another example of correcting power creep with more power creep. The easy fix is to pull back the abilities which are OP, not to buff the others. The endless cycle of buff, rebuff, and superbuff is at fault, and expanding this into other aspects of the build will only make it worse.
Well, on the other end, we have the endless cycle of placate, invincible, invulnerable. It's gotten very out of hand.
This conversation has gotten completely derailed, I though we were talking about science abilities.
I've been thinking about this, as I have the standard PrtG and the Grav build, and have been working a sci toon for a drain build.
I wonder if it could be something as simple as assigning a flowcaps bonus to sci captains. Make it scale to level of course.
Engineers could have something to help with Hull heals, while Tac's can still get an innate bonus to Energy weapons.
Just my first thoughts here.
Another example of correcting power creep with more power creep. The easy fix is to pull back the abilities which are OP, not to buff the others. The endless cycle of buff, rebuff, and superbuff is at fault, and expanding this into other aspects of the build will only make it worse.
Well, on the other end, we have the endless cycle of placate, invincible, invulnerable. It's gotten very out of hand.
This conversation has gotten completely derailed, I though we were talking about science abilities.
I have to admit, my thought was on how to help the sci ship seem more sciencey (sp) with using abilities that a lot of peeps don't use, but I can see where Engineers and Tacs would get a buff (read power creep).
I do believe I share your POV that science, just doesn't seem like science anymore. It is one reason why I want to try a drain build. Grav Well and torpedo's grabbing everything on the map and then going boom, is just boring play. Easy and an "I win" combo, but boring as heck now. Another variation of the same was with Radiation damage, but that still has became rather cheap.
Maybe if every one had an easier chance at getting the consoles you mentioned in the first post, or something like it, they would help, to expand the game.
My mother always told me to walk away from a fight, The Marines taught me how.
I have to admit, my thought was on how to help the sci ship seem more sciencey (sp) with using abilities that a lot of peeps don't use, but I can see where Engineers and Tacs would get a buff (read power creep).
I do believe I share your POV that science, just doesn't seem like science anymore. It is one reason why I want to try a drain build. Grav Well and torpedo's grabbing everything on the map and then going boom, is just boring play. Easy and an "I win" combo, but boring as heck now. Another variation of the same was with Radiation damage, but that still has became rather cheap.
Maybe if every one had an easier chance at getting the consoles you mentioned in the first post, or something like it, they would help, to expand the game.
Drain build, stack every flow caps boosting thing plus drain console on a Palisade. Downside, you have to get creative using doffs, abilities, and traits for survivability.
Because I did not. I just have a different conclusion then you. Just because TS3 + Kemocite is now stronger than a BFAW pure beam boat doesn't mean the BFAW pure beam boat is suddenly okay. Cryptic has to fix Kemocite (and going by the parses, it behaves just wrong, at least together with Torpedo Spread), but it also has to either buff CSV and CRF, or peg BFAW down a bit so there is some more variability in the wonderful DPS lands of Star Trek Online.
There is variability and viability in all weapons platforms in this game. Difference is popularity. And what is optimal.
Check the top parses DPS. Torp superiority is independent of Kemo. If you are going to calculate only weapon platform you need to take out both the kemo and the plasma embassy console. for example only check Felisean 226k, 194k Sob or Eternal's DBB AP FAW3 parses and Neutronic TS3 parses.
With regards to nerfing BFAW, if they are going bump down BFAW they also need to bump down TS3.
I do use TSIII (Particle emission torpedo) + kemocite. Doesn't change the fact that I am crowd-controlling a bunch of spheres that are no threat to the mission, because by the time I drop that GW on them, the generator has almost been BFAW'ed to death anyway. And - from my experience - this happens a lot.
Blind defence of a broken, OP, ability from you I suppose?
Jeez, check the parses. They are publicly available. Let see who is blind. Or are you too lazy to even check those? Besides I play all weapons platforms. all viable, optimal is case to case basis.
The main difference is before, Top 1 DPSers dont use Torps. So the only basis is yourself or noobs using torps. With no basis to compare optimal piloting using torps vs optimal piloting using beams.
Nowadays, you got that parse basis. The problem is the pilot. Too many noob using torps comparing themselves with a pro using beams which end up Beams looking overpowered. if we compare noob using torps and pro using beams that will have variability in pilot quality and even build optimization.
Where is the effect from scramble sensors in parses ? Where is the damage from Charged particle burst ? Where is the effect from VM ? Why isn't the extra hull dmg caused by 10-12s successful shield facing disable counted for the one that disabled it in the first place, so the bfaw automatons do not need to drain whole shield on boss fights ?
But at least we have parses that give the bfaw automatons warm feeling about their great performance and mock non-dmg sci playstyle. Because two finger gameplay (one for spacebar, one for movement) is what is popular nowadays.
Now back to the original point of this thread...sci love....
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
Well, if nothing else, the T6 Prometheus does open up the possibility of different combinations. Previously, there were forum users arguing that Pilot = escorts only, Command = Cruisers only and Intel = Science only. This has, obviously, been thoroughly disproven now.
So hopefully, sooner or later, we'll get Sci-command and Sci-pilot hyrbid ships.
Deep Space Science Vessel for Command? Nova for Pilot? Recon Science Vessel for Intel?
Multi-Mission Recon Science Vessel: I suggest one variant for each specialization if it turns out to be another 3-Pack (OMG, how expensive if you want all variants and consoles?). If just one, Recon sugests Intel.
Tactical Escort for Pilot. Fleet Escort for Intel.
Star Cruiser for Intel. Assault Cruiser for Pilot.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Comments
This is the kind of thinking which leads to marginalization. It would be far easier to correct the issues with power creep, not by introducing more power creep in other areas, but by identifying the builds and powers which are over-used and reducing their effectiveness. What I call Power Recall would counter power creep. If over 50% of players use BFAW, then it demonstrates that BFAW needs to be restrained, not that specific counters to BFAW need to be buffed.
When any one build becomes dominant it is because players have identified it as the most successful one. Restrain that specific build, and suddenly others become more viable and attractive. Even more: players will begin to experiment with various combinations until they discover one which works for them, and, *gasp,* we might have diversity once again!
You will still be able to make cookie-cutter builds which perform as well as most, but instead of only star shaped cookies, you will have hearts, flowers, and even gingerbread man shapes from which to choose.
I always viewed healing (both hull and shields) should be more of an Engineering focus than Science. In the shows, it's the Engineers that deals with ship damage, energy and shields.
| USS Curiosity - Pathfinder | USS Rift - Eternal |
The Science Ship Build Thread - Share your Sci Ship builds here!
Most unexpectedly, this turned into a flame-fest! Closed it goes!. /sigh What flamefestery is this? pwlaughingtrendy
Lol, torpedoes are quite popular these days.
I don't think it's Engineers that are doing the DPS. It are Tacs. They might be flying Cruisers occasional, but that doesn't make them Engineers.
Science are just as capable of DPS'ing as Engineers. They are actually pretty close. The top Engineer in the DPS charts has 101,160DPS while the top 1 in Science has 112,298DPS. So it isn't really true that Science are lagging behind in terms of DPS.
| USS Curiosity - Pathfinder | USS Rift - Eternal |
The Science Ship Build Thread - Share your Sci Ship builds here!
Between energy damage 2nd deflectors, sensor analysis, and all other other stuff, yeah, you can make a Janeway type destroyer science ship. The problem is, when a science ship is spewing up all that DPS, it's not acting like a science ship. Hope that result wasn't with Kemocite since it's bugged.
I wonder if it could be something as simple as assigning a flowcaps bonus to sci captains. Make it scale to level of course.
Engineers could have something to help with Hull heals, while Tac's can still get an innate bonus to Energy weapons.
Just my first thoughts here.
Another example of correcting power creep with more power creep. The easy fix is to pull back the abilities which are OP, not to buff the others. The endless cycle of buff, rebuff, and superbuff is at fault, and expanding this into other aspects of the build will only make it worse.
Well, on the other end, we have the endless cycle of placate, invincible, invulnerable. It's gotten very out of hand.
This conversation has gotten completely derailed, I though we were talking about science abilities.
I have to admit, my thought was on how to help the sci ship seem more sciencey (sp) with using abilities that a lot of peeps don't use, but I can see where Engineers and Tacs would get a buff (read power creep).
I do believe I share your POV that science, just doesn't seem like science anymore. It is one reason why I want to try a drain build. Grav Well and torpedo's grabbing everything on the map and then going boom, is just boring play. Easy and an "I win" combo, but boring as heck now. Another variation of the same was with Radiation damage, but that still has became rather cheap.
Maybe if every one had an easier chance at getting the consoles you mentioned in the first post, or something like it, they would help, to expand the game.
Drain build, stack every flow caps boosting thing plus drain console on a Palisade. Downside, you have to get creative using doffs, abilities, and traits for survivability.
There is variability and viability in all weapons platforms in this game. Difference is popularity. And what is optimal.
Check the top parses DPS. Torp superiority is independent of Kemo. If you are going to calculate only weapon platform you need to take out both the kemo and the plasma embassy console. for example only check Felisean 226k, 194k Sob or Eternal's DBB AP FAW3 parses and Neutronic TS3 parses.
With regards to nerfing BFAW, if they are going bump down BFAW they also need to bump down TS3.
Jeez, check the parses. They are publicly available. Let see who is blind. Or are you too lazy to even check those? Besides I play all weapons platforms. all viable, optimal is case to case basis.
The main difference is before, Top 1 DPSers dont use Torps. So the only basis is yourself or noobs using torps. With no basis to compare optimal piloting using torps vs optimal piloting using beams.
Nowadays, you got that parse basis. The problem is the pilot. Too many noob using torps comparing themselves with a pro using beams which end up Beams looking overpowered. if we compare noob using torps and pro using beams that will have variability in pilot quality and even build optimization.
Where is the effect from scramble sensors in parses ? Where is the damage from Charged particle burst ? Where is the effect from VM ? Why isn't the extra hull dmg caused by 10-12s successful shield facing disable counted for the one that disabled it in the first place, so the bfaw automatons do not need to drain whole shield on boss fights ?
But at least we have parses that give the bfaw automatons warm feeling about their great performance and mock non-dmg sci playstyle. Because two finger gameplay (one for spacebar, one for movement) is what is popular nowadays.
Now back to the original point of this thread...sci love....
Multi-Mission Recon Science Vessel: I suggest one variant for each specialization if it turns out to be another 3-Pack (OMG, how expensive if you want all variants and consoles?). If just one, Recon sugests Intel.
Tactical Escort for Pilot. Fleet Escort for Intel.
Star Cruiser for Intel. Assault Cruiser for Pilot.