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Do We REALLY Need Another Conflict?

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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    Oh yeah.. I keep forgetting that there are non-burning epohhs. :D
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  • koraheaglecrykoraheaglecry Member Posts: 250 Arc User
    edited September 2015
    Yes. In fact they should do a season were we are at war with everyone simultaneously. The Borg, the Undine, the Voth, the Iconians, and the Mirror Universe all attack us at once. Then we can find the dragon ball so Starfleet can become super-saiyan and kick all their asses.

    I'm kidding. But really what do you expect? It's an MMO. They have to give us someone to fight every season, and if it's not a major conflict there's no reason to send someone our rank (Fleet Admirals now!) to go deal with it.

    Yes there are plot holes, not everything is perfect. But Cryptic does put effort into the story and takes it seriously. It could be worse - like in WoW where some zones don't take the lore seriously at all and are humorous parodies of things, like Redridge Mountains. I hated Keeshan so much.

    I expect them to actually follow through on the 'We're going in a different direction' comment theyve made. I dont expect them to forever cast away pewpew. But if we're rebuilding our forces as they try to indicate with the interviews and the announcement of New Dawn. Im finding it difficult to believe we can actually rebuild after what was supposedly a crippling war, only to turn around and start losing ships to our Mirror selves with future tech. Its not a small plothole by any means. Its a huge sinkhole that is reflective of how terrible their writing has been of late.
    No, THIS is a giant sink hole:
    giant_sinkhole_in_guatemala_02.jpg
    If you call the Iconian Story Arc a serious effort. Then good for you that you can over look the glaring issues with it. And good for you that you can overlook the glaring issues with stepping into another conflict. Even a minor one is a hard pill to swallow at this point.

    Im simply pointing out a new conflict and a new immediate threat is not good story telling. Putting some emphasis on actual rebuilding without any conflict in a handful of FEs would not hurt them. It be a breath of fresh air and actually give players a chance to do something different for a change. MMO or not, not every mission/quest in other MMOs revolve around conflict. But thats all we get in this game, even when there is plenty of room for other encounters considering the franchise and lore.
    Thing is.... it's not our jobs. Our characters represent war heroes. War heroes don't do rebuilding unless they have nothing better to do. Any sort of conflict, even a minor one gives us reason to leave the rebuilding to the civilians who are actually good at stuff like that and kick asss so they don't have to.

    Maybe thats how you see your character. But need I remind you before the failure of the Genesis System. People were ecstatic about the idea of exploring new places and boldly going where no man has gone before. Even with the Genesis System failing to provide what it was intended, people were furious about its removal. Because what little 'exploration' was left in the game would be relegated to DOffs. People, no matter how repetitive it was, enjoyed the diplomatic encounters, the beautiful ground maps you could beam down to and scan things.

    To say that it isnt our jobs to rebuild. I dont know what Star Trek show you were watching. But everything outside of two seasons of DS9. Thats exactly what Starfleet Captains did. They went on diplomatic missions, they explored new worlds, they cataloged star clusters, they responded to distress calls, they evacuated and gave assistance and aid to those struck by disasters. Cryptic themselves have stated this upcoming season is about us rebuilding.

    Our characters represent Starfleet Officers, Captains of starships iconic and new alike, and with that be it war or peace. We should be able to experience that. Not be forced into one form of gameplay because the Developers are lazy or unimaginative.
  • davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 10,613 Arc User
    My tactical captain's uniform is red, but it started out white. So much blood.
  • coupaholiccoupaholic Member Posts: 2,188 Arc User
    It's a space combat game. We all fly warships. Endgame is basically getting bigger and better guns for said warships. You aren't going to find any peace here, as ridiculous as it is they'll always be another war waiting around the corner.

    However I am led to believe that some Foundry content has little to no combat so it does exist in some limited capacity. Not perfect but it might spark some proper Star Trek diplomatic vibes.​​
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    My tactical captain's uniform is red, but it started out white. So much blood.
    Then stop using melee weapons. Energy weapons are so much cleaner!​​
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 5,165 Arc User
    My tactical captain's uniform is red, but it started out white. So much blood.
    Then stop using melee weapons. Energy weapons are so much cleaner!​​

    Even energy weapons can have bleedthrough :p

    The-Grand-Nagus
    Join Date: Sep 2008

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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    coupaholic wrote: »
    It's a space combat game. We all fly warships. Endgame is basically getting bigger and better guns for said warships. You aren't going to find any peace here, as ridiculous as it is they'll always be another war waiting around the corner.

    However I am led to believe that some Foundry content has little to no combat so it does exist in some limited capacity. Not perfect but it might spark some proper Star Trek diplomatic vibes.​​
    Truth.

    Freedom isn't free. Peace comes at the cost of eternal vigilance. Someone must be ready at all times to shoot the enemies of the Federation.

    Diplomacy and negotiation have their place, but negotiation is far easier when done from a position of strength.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
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  • tmassxtmassx Member Posts: 827 Arc User
    Freedom isn't free. Peace comes at the cost of eternal vigilance. Someone must be ready at all times to shoot the enemies of the Federation.

    Diplomacy and negotiation have their place, but negotiation is far easier when done from a position of strength.

    Wealth isn't free. Sources comes at the cost of eternal war. Someone must be ready at all times to shoot the enemies of the Federation.

    Intimidation and blackmail have their place , but blackmail is far easier when done from a position of strength .

  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    tmassx wrote: »
    Freedom isn't free. Peace comes at the cost of eternal vigilance. Someone must be ready at all times to shoot the enemies of the Federation.

    Diplomacy and negotiation have their place, but negotiation is far easier when done from a position of strength.

    Wealth isn't free. Sources comes at the cost of eternal war. Someone must be ready at all times to shoot the enemies of the Federation.

    Intimidation and blackmail have their place , but blackmail is far easier when done from a position of strength .
    Not sure what you're going for there.... unless you're trying to insinuate that diplomats are conmen?
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  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,001 Arc User
    (...)
    To say that it isnt our jobs to rebuild. I dont know what Star Trek show you were watching. But everything outside of two seasons of DS9. Thats exactly what Starfleet Captains did. They went on diplomatic missions, they explored new worlds, they cataloged star clusters, they responded to distress calls, they evacuated and gave assistance and aid to those struck by disasters. Cryptic themselves have stated this upcoming season is about us rebuilding.

    (...)

    I think many people just watch the youtube edit that just shows all action sequences from DS9 packed in one single video and think they are watching Star Trek pig-2.gif Cryptic devs are definitely among them.​​
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    angrytarg wrote: »
    (...)
    To say that it isnt our jobs to rebuild. I dont know what Star Trek show you were watching. But everything outside of two seasons of DS9. Thats exactly what Starfleet Captains did. They went on diplomatic missions, they explored new worlds, they cataloged star clusters, they responded to distress calls, they evacuated and gave assistance and aid to those struck by disasters. Cryptic themselves have stated this upcoming season is about us rebuilding.
    (...)
    I think many people just watch the youtube edit that just shows all action sequences from DS9 packed in one single video and think they are watching Star Trek pig-2.gif Cryptic devs are definitely among them.​​
    Yeah, no idea what you're talking about. Most of the time the main character did what Kora mentioned it involved combat.... The Ent-D explored FGC-47, the result?
    imaginaryfriend4.jpg

    Yeah they didn't exactly try to shoot Isabella, but it wasn't exactly a peaceful mission.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
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  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,001 Arc User
    (...)
    Yeah they didn't exactly try to shoot Isabella, but it wasn't exactly a peaceful mission.

    I don't understand the need to paint everything in deep black or shining white.​​
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • kyrrokkyrrok Member Posts: 1,352 Arc User
    tmassx wrote: »
    Freedom isn't free. Peace comes at the cost of eternal vigilance. Someone must be ready at all times to shoot the enemies of the Federation.

    Diplomacy and negotiation have their place, but negotiation is far easier when done from a position of strength.

    Wealth isn't free. Sources comes at the cost of eternal war. Someone must be ready at all times to shoot the enemies of the Federation.

    Intimidation and blackmail have their place , but blackmail is far easier when done from a position of strength .
    Not sure what you're going for there.... unless you're trying to insinuate that diplomats are conmen?

    Sounds to me more like a few mafia tough guys making the other an offer he couldn't refuse.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    kyrrok wrote: »
    tmassx wrote: »
    Freedom isn't free. Peace comes at the cost of eternal vigilance. Someone must be ready at all times to shoot the enemies of the Federation.

    Diplomacy and negotiation have their place, but negotiation is far easier when done from a position of strength.

    Wealth isn't free. Sources comes at the cost of eternal war. Someone must be ready at all times to shoot the enemies of the Federation.

    Intimidation and blackmail have their place , but blackmail is far easier when done from a position of strength .
    Not sure what you're going for there.... unless you're trying to insinuate that diplomats are conmen?
    Sounds to me more like a few mafia tough guys making the other an offer he couldn't refuse.
    That's kinda what diplomacy often comes down to... at least when negotiating with someone who hates you.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    kyrrok wrote: »
    tmassx wrote: »
    Freedom isn't free. Peace comes at the cost of eternal vigilance. Someone must be ready at all times to shoot the enemies of the Federation.

    Diplomacy and negotiation have their place, but negotiation is far easier when done from a position of strength.

    Wealth isn't free. Sources comes at the cost of eternal war. Someone must be ready at all times to shoot the enemies of the Federation.

    Intimidation and blackmail have their place , but blackmail is far easier when done from a position of strength .
    Not sure what you're going for there.... unless you're trying to insinuate that diplomats are conmen?

    Sounds to me more like a few mafia tough guys making the other an offer he couldn't refuse.

    Nice Dilithium Mines you got there... Wouldn't it be a shame if something happened to them?​​
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • bluedarkybluedarky Member Posts: 548 Arc User
    tmassx wrote: »
    Freedom isn't free. Peace comes at the cost of eternal vigilance. Someone must be ready at all times to shoot the enemies of the Federation.

    Diplomacy and negotiation have their place, but negotiation is far easier when done from a position of strength.

    Wealth isn't free. Sources comes at the cost of eternal war. Someone must be ready at all times to shoot the enemies of the Federation.

    Intimidation and blackmail have their place , but blackmail is far easier when done from a position of strength .

    The key to diplomacy is to speak softly and carry a big stick.

    The Federation speaks very softly and carries the largest sticks it can find.

    But seriously, most diplomatic negotiations even in the real world go to the person with the biggest stick, and the Alliance (if it remains) carries all the biggest sticks tied into a giant superstick.

    Also, consider that the last two innovations in technology in the mirror universe were stolen from the prime universe, 'future technology' could just be the technology we spent the last few years developing.
  • hartzillahartzilla Member Posts: 1,177 Arc User
    edited September 2015
    And the Dominion War was the first time we ever saw Starfleet go to war. And it was only able to turn the tide thanks to WMDs deployed by S31 and the sudden turn of the Cardassians.

    No, not really. The federation was pretty much winning after the Romulans joined up, until the Breen joined up and then started winning again with their march to Cardassia after the Breen power drain weapon was neutralized. All the virus cure did was let the federation win without a last blood bath which the Founders may have avoided any way if they weren't dying at the time. And all the Cardassians did was help speed up their assault on Cardassia.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    Enh... the Founders had a chance without that stuff happening. they might have lost but the allies would have taken far more casualties.
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  • tmassxtmassx Member Posts: 827 Arc User
    tmassx wrote: »
    Freedom isn't free. Peace comes at the cost of eternal vigilance. Someone must be ready at all times to shoot the enemies of the Federation.

    Diplomacy and negotiation have their place, but negotiation is far easier when done from a position of strength.

    Wealth isn't free. Sources comes at the cost of eternal war. Someone must be ready at all times to shoot the enemies of the Federation.

    Intimidation and blackmail have their place , but blackmail is far easier when done from a position of strength .
    Not sure what you're going for there.... unless you're trying to insinuate that diplomats are conmen?

    My universal translator works this way... f.e. negotiation from a position of strength? This is a blackmail.

    But you did not misunderstand me , I do not want another conflict , I'm just saying that business in this game is based on selling weapons ( like in other MMOs) , so they must be getting some kind of war . If you could for dilithium and the zens buy something else, and earning dilithium somewhere else than on combat missions , I would be for .
  • bluedarkybluedarky Member Posts: 548 Arc User
    tmassx wrote: »
    tmassx wrote: »
    Freedom isn't free. Peace comes at the cost of eternal vigilance. Someone must be ready at all times to shoot the enemies of the Federation.

    Diplomacy and negotiation have their place, but negotiation is far easier when done from a position of strength.

    Wealth isn't free. Sources comes at the cost of eternal war. Someone must be ready at all times to shoot the enemies of the Federation.

    Intimidation and blackmail have their place , but blackmail is far easier when done from a position of strength .
    Not sure what you're going for there.... unless you're trying to insinuate that diplomats are conmen?

    My universal translator works this way... f.e. negotiation from a position of strength? This is a blackmail.

    A think you misinterpreted here, Blackmail is more rolling up with a fleet and taking what you want for the price you demanded or blowing the planet up, negotiation from a position of strength is more in order to stop them from going "We could trade, or we could just destroy you and take what we want from the wreckage."

    Imagine how the Khitomer Accord would have gone if the Federation hadn't been on a roughly equal footing with the KDF, the Federation would just be another member of the glorious Klingon Empire now.
  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    edited September 2015
    tmassx wrote: »
    Freedom isn't free. Peace comes at the cost of eternal vigilance. Someone must be ready at all times to shoot the enemies of the Federation.

    Diplomacy and negotiation have their place, but negotiation is far easier when done from a position of strength.

    Wealth isn't free. Sources comes at the cost of eternal war. Someone must be ready at all times to shoot the enemies of the Federation.

    Intimidation and blackmail have their place , but blackmail is far easier when done from a position of strength .

    Look, no matter what TNG thought, it's a basic fact of reality that diplomacy is a two-way street. Negotiation only works if the other side is receptive. If they're not, you need to use another option. And several of our enemies in this game are the type to never be willing to negotiate in good faith, whether because of hatred (True Way), inflexible religion (Voth), desire to conquer (Iconians after M'Tara gets blown up), programming (Borg), or bloodlust (J'mpok).

    The best you can do in those cases peacefully is go around the big noisy guy and use your influence to empower moderates (even if they're only relative moderates) to take your enemy down from the inside out. Which is something we're doing if you're paying attention:
    • We're helping the legitimate Cardassian government (which, by the way, is led by a woman who was a dissident leader against the Central Command in early DS9) out by backing them up and taking the fight to the True Way.
    • We're covertly helping out Voth separatists who think Doctrine is a load of TRIBBLE.
    • We're covertly helping Gorn separatists who want the Klingons and their brain-dead warmongering gone.
    • We're helping the Borg Cooperative defeat the Collective, one freed drone at a time.
    • We beat the Undine by convincing them they were only weakening everybody, themselves included, by continuing to be Iconian catspaws.
    • We beat the Vaadwaur by allying with somebody within their ranks who didn't want his people being slaves to the Iconians.

    Just like the nuclear talks with Iran, which if you'll notice, only began after Mahmoud Ahmedinejad left office and was replaced by Hassan Rouhani, a moderate compared to his predecessor.

    But meanwhile you've still got to deal decisively with the TRIBBLE$holes you're pushing out of power, because they're not going to just sit back and let you marginalize them in their own society.

    Foreign policy with unfriendly nations isn't everybody sitting down at the table and singing "kumbaya", it's carrot-and-stick, practical incentives, threats you can back up, and back-channel shenanigans. Get used to reality.
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
    — Sabaton, "Great War"
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  • hartzillahartzilla Member Posts: 1,177 Arc User
    Enh... the Founders had a chance without that stuff happening. they might have lost but the allies would have taken far more casualties.

    Actually by the time the allies got to Cardassia the female founder flat out said they were holding out just to give the allies a hollow victory, so she pretty much admitted the Dominion was beaten before getting the cure.
  • jorantomalakjorantomalak Member Posts: 7,133 Arc User
    Tbh i hope we do get to go exploring with the mirror universe only being a skirmish and the focus of S11 being exploration and discovery.

    However cryptics logic is "we come in peace, shoot to kill" so yeah another war yaddad yadda yadda
  • mainamaina Member Posts: 430 Arc User
    Even energy weapons can have bleedthrough :p

    Cauterization.

    Besides, I have yet to see an idea of "exploration" that works in a MMORPG like STO, that works for everyone, and retains the MMORG "world". If we want to promote single player and/or Fleet instanced areas that works, but I'd hate to have to log in after a 3 day absence and find 95% of the sector has been explored.

    I can also imagine the increase in threads asking to skip cut scenes, relating to an adventure that is all about scanning and dialog just to get the 2nd weeks award.
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    maina wrote: »
    Even energy weapons can have bleedthrough :p

    Cauterization.

    Besides, I have yet to see an idea of "exploration" that works in a MMORPG like STO, that works for everyone, and retains the MMORG "world". If we want to promote single player and/or Fleet instanced areas that works, but I'd hate to have to log in after a 3 day absence and find 95% of the sector has been explored.

    I can also imagine the increase in threads asking to skip cut scenes, relating to an adventure that is all about scanning and dialog just to get the 2nd weeks award.
    Yeah, peeps will grind anything and everything. Explore uncharted territory? Heh, I'm sure you could find people who'd be willing and able to plow through 100 uncharted solar systems by themselves the first day.
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  • azurianstarazurianstar Member Posts: 6,985 Arc User
    Yeah, peeps will grind anything and everything. Explore uncharted territory? Heh, I'm sure you could find people who'd be willing and able to plow through 100 uncharted solar systems by themselves the first day.

    Yeah, there are those who blow through content fast. But if Cryptic does exploration beyond "go here, click" mentality, I bet they could make them work for it.
  • bluedarkybluedarky Member Posts: 548 Arc User
    Ultimately the conflict with the MU boils down to them being that player in C&C games who waits until someone has barely defended another players assault to send their troops at them for an attempt at an easy victory.
  • ryugasiriusryugasirius Member Posts: 283 Arc User
    To say that it isnt our jobs to rebuild. I dont know what Star Trek show you were watching. But everything outside of two seasons of DS9. Thats exactly what Starfleet Captains did. They went on diplomatic missions, they explored new worlds, they cataloged star clusters, they responded to distress calls, they evacuated and gave assistance and aid to those struck by disasters. Cryptic themselves have stated this upcoming season is about us rebuilding.

    Well, I don't really see Fleet Admirals using top-notch warships to ferry supplies and sending military-spec engineers to plan cities and build colonies, except occasionally or when absolutely necessary (i.e. a medical emergency). Considering how huge the Federation space is, chances are there will always be a conflict on some border, and Starfleet should mainly patrol the perimeter, explore the unknown and assess/counter new threats as they emerge.

    Of course, there are dedicated branches of Starfleet that do support/logistics and build outposts, listening posts, orbital defenses and shipyards, but they certainly don't use escort carriers and dreadnoughts for these tasks.
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  • apulseapulse Member Posts: 456 Arc User
    Well, the main reason for a conflict is to engage the player in a standard MMO environment.
    I think Eve Online is the only MMO who don't have a main "enemy", every other MMO has always some bad dude who is to be killed at the end of the expansion (Just look at WoW.. getting tiredsome).

    I agree to question also if we really need a new conflict surrounding a faction that will loose in the end.
    The Star trek universe is vast, why not use that. Take the Delta patrol quests, and if you remove the Vaduaar, you were always in contact with a new faction and "almost" always engaged in combat with different species.

    Remove the bad guy and replace it with real exploration. Do daily exploration and obtain marks or what not, for just doing the exploration bit where the enemy can be random.


    Remember when The Borg in the beginning came to STO when the game launched, well.. they might be a force to recon with, during the years it has proven that they are not so powerful since the Voth, Undine, Tholians, Iconians can kick their TRIBBLE.
    The Iconians who killed four guys by waving their hands is now be destroyed.

    See the pattern? I love the thought of the ultimate enemy, but it is really not the ultimate enemy if you in the end always win. The Borg has lost its charm, mainly cause they have in a way been defeated, just see Borg Disconnected.

    Sometime Status Quo is a good thing like in WH40K
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  • ryugasiriusryugasirius Member Posts: 283 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »
    Why not? Why this need to assign concrete catergories to such ships? What purpose do said ships serve outside a war scenario?

    We've seen plenty of evidence that Starfleet ships were pretty versatile and usually designed with alternating mission profiles in mind. For example:
    The Defiant didn't just 'shoot stuff' - she went on exploration missions too.
    The Enterprise-D didn't just explore, she undertook diplomatic missions.
    Voyager's very first mission had nothing to do with exploration.
    Heck, even the Nova class was reprofiled into a small exploration ship (USS Rhode Island, 'Endgame').


    I'm not saying that a ship can't have multiple purposes, or even be occasionally used in a different (sometimes unfitting) role. But the main purpose of a Starfleet ship should be exploring (and we never stopped doing so, pretty much every season has us advancing our knowledge of the galaxy, discovering new species and civilizations, and studying new technologies) and protecting the Federation (from hostile powers, pirates/raiders, unknown entities etc).

    I'm just saying that we are supposed to support the effort of rebuilding, but still doing so as captains, and that means mostly keeping people and ships directly involved in reconstruction safe (by intercepting and dispatching aforementioned wrong-doers, flexing muscles wherever necessary, countering any threats that may arise, assisting allies in their own disputes, and generally helping whoever requires help). Thus, we would have to resort to combat quite often (even in canon, there are very few episodes where nobody gets shot).

    Same as present-day navies have their own schedules. Even if there are currently no major wars, you won't see aircraft carriers hauling containers and oil or moving around passengers, simply because that would be highly inefficient (and could cause damage to the ship). There are ships built for that purpose and crews better trained at doing specifically that job. Military-grade ships are rather used to keep "rogue nations" in check and countering minor threats (pirates, traffickers etc).
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