test content
Logo
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
Dyson Destroyers to T6
jupwise
Member Posts: 31 Arc User
I would like to make a suggestion to bring the Dyson destroyers to T6. Why? A few reasons. For one, I love the versatility of the ship, being able to switch between roles quickly. More importantly though, it would give our Romulan and Klingon friends to have access to at least some T6 Science ships.
Suggestions and ideas for T6:
I don't think more changes are necessary but own Mastery traits would of course be needed, though I lack the imagination for this. Maybe somebody else has some ideas.
* edited to add suggestions *
Suggestions and ideas for T6:
- LT Eng -> LT Cmdr Eng (or Perhaps the Universal LT to LT Cmdr for greater flexibility)
- Perhaps change 1 seating to an Intel or pilot hybrid
- Reduce cooldown of transformation
- Perhaps being able to change the damage type of the built-in cannon / Rate of fire increase. Being able to switch out the weapon completely would also be an option. It would be an extra slot that is usable only in tac mode. If thecannons remain fixed it should get boni. Maybe from other damage types
- Redo consoles and boni
- Single Dyson swarmer Hanger bay
- Bfaw works for built-in cannon too
I don't think more changes are necessary but own Mastery traits would of course be needed, though I lack the imagination for this. Maybe somebody else has some ideas.
* edited to add suggestions *
Post edited by jupwise on
0
Comments
But to the RR they're the only c-store science ships available. Of course with all the T6 multi-packs there's sci-flavored options for interested sci captains but at present if you want a specialized sci ship with a singularity core its either the DSD, one of the defaults, or a lock box prize.
A little love wouldn't go amiss (but I'd like to see that through an overhaul of the consoles, stats, and abilities. I'd rather spend zen on a new entirely in-faction sci warbird.)
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
I just don't see it happening. They base these things on sales projections. There are more fed players who prefer escort and cruisers for the nicer dps, so fed escorts and cruisers (as we have already seen) get the most attention. When they get around to sci ships they will upgrade the most popular c-store fed sci ship, which over time has to be the vesta. I'm sure it will happen, but maybe not until well into next year.
There's a few things worth considering.
1. Cryptic doesn't always base these things on sales projections (ex. after all this time they just updated the mobius console for no good reason except to make it less absolutely terrible.)
2. The FED is fine, its the RR that needs one c-store sci ship (which is a separate issue not worth debating over here).
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
I really enjoyed the Romulan Dyson Destroyers. Good looks, and a Science Vessel, which has become my favorite.
The ships aren't for the scrap yard. Their special ability could probably use a buff, so it can compete with the Vesta's Hangar, but everything else about is equal to the Vesta.
And the Dyson Destroyers are superior or equal to every other Tier 5 science Vessel.
If the Tier 6 variant is only a single ship (per faction), the OP's idea seems okay. I hope it would get an Intel slot, of course, since that seems the best spec so far, especially for low level skills. But I suppose Pilot might also work. Command doesn't seem to fit the role of the ship.
But if it's a 3-pack, I hope that each ship has a different specialization.
No it doesn't always, but when it comes to ships it usually does as is highly evident. Using a console upgrade as a comparison to a T6 ship upgrade is no comparison at all. Whether you think fed is fine or not, the fact is their are just much more fed players, i.e. customers. As you said this not worth debating, start counting how many c-store ships there are for each faction to get an empirical answer.
Yup. The Palisade and the Vesta run circles around the DSD gimmick.
Then buy a scryer.
Get the scryer to mastery 5.
Take trait back to the vesta.
Enjoy fun as f+ck exotic damage doom ship.
Get all hands on deck trait for maximum troll.
Stick to phaser damage. Get undine rep phasers (a heavy exotic damage proc...).
Get undien rep turrets, vesta aux phasers, heavy undien rep turret.
Scatter volley/undine turret barrage everything that has survived your exotic damage. Crush survivors with deflector doom beam (phaser based damage...).
Survive and troll borg with Vesta set consoles. Not a single bad one in the set....
Dyson ships are sad because the dyson rep does not actually go full on proton.... so its a big ol waste.
Also an upgrade to the cannons firing rate.
You can't argue that something can't or shouldn't happen because its unusual. Unusual may just be (to throw a number out there to make a point) 30%, so while you may be right 70% of the time you will very soon find yourself in a baffling situation.
Cryptic makes sci ships, they also make ships for the RR and KDF. There's no question about that even if c-store releases aren't evenly distributed. What there is right now is a need, a need for a RR and, for that matter, a KDF sci ship that makes the DSD's less of a last resort.
That oversight is a justification for action (something to make a RR/KDF alternative to the DSD more appealing to cryptic's business interests), its not proof for why it will never happen (which pretty much isn't in question, its just timing/priorities.)
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
I made a reasonably good Protonic build out of it (with all 3 consoles, plus full Dyson set); but Cryptic quickly abandoned Proton dmg. And you're kinda locked into using cannons (unless you ignore that built-in cannon altogether, for a full sci build).
I'll take a T6 Upgrade for it, though.
Then it would just be a perfect escort - sci ship hybrid, not something stuck somewhere between Tac/Sci. The DSD's don't do sci as well as a pure sci-ship nor does it have the firepower of a cruiser/escort/destroyer/raider ect.
Its what we call a compromise, if it was able to compete on absolutely all fronts as well as any other ship it would be stupid.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Problem is, that there are no Vulnerability Locators for Proton dmg, so I was stuck with 4 of those hybrid Proton/Polaron consoles, killing my CrtH. And without that cannon, as others have said, it's just a sub-par science vessel.
I just don't bother buffing proton damage. Its on the ship as a firepower supplement (something more than a traditional sci-ship has but less than what you can do with an open 4th foreward weapon) but that doesn't mean you have to go all out with it.
Again: compromise. Not as good as either but its got a little of both.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
The full console set is also built around proton dmg (as is the EPW). Anyway, making a max Protonic build was just for fun.
Again: fit like a regular Sci ship, and it appears to be sub-par (to Vesta, Wells, Palisade).
Oh yah, I tried it too...then decided that "you know what, I'm just going to put this on my shuttle." (which the 3 piece rep set works quite well for.)
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Who said anything about making a perfect sci/tac hybrid? The type of comprise that has been made with the mechanics of DSDs made it into a mediocre sci/tac ship. As a sci captain since I started playing STO, it is the most ill conceived sci ship I have ever had the misfortune to fly. Could it be fixed to make it worth flying, yes. Is that likely to happen, I doubt it.
Sure, the Fedlings have lots of options. Doesn't help me at all. I don't care if they toss the Fed Dyson in the dust bin, but at least T6 the KDF and Rom versions to give us *something* to work with.
--Red Annorax
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Yes, exactly.
It might help to this of it this way. The DSD is a generalist. The alternatives are specialists. The specialists beat the generalist in their niches but you can compare the generalist across a number of those. Its more versatile and it pays for that versatility by being mediocre in any one area you care to look at.
The DSD can be a good ship but only if you work with its range, not just its core sci abilities.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
True. However, when certain compromises, compromise the effectiveness of a ship in "drastic measures", it can/will affect it's perception / usefulness. To Wit:
Considering the "primary" method of measuring a ship's suitability for "STO Endgame Content" is it's overall DPS, the fact that DPS is "highly compromised" becomes an almost insurmountable issue.
Running a full-on proton build leaves the DSDs "lacking" in weapons-based DPS compared to a "stock" equivalent of whatever mode it's in (so a stock Sci ship out-DPSes the Sci-mode DSD, and a stock destroyer out-DPSes the DSD). Also, the BOff seating combined with the transformation mechanic's ability to "double up" on CMDR powers does not make up the difference. Therefore, "fully and optimally built", the protonic build DSD does not measure up to any contemporary.
Running the DSD in a full-on science ship mode - done by essentially "giving up" on the transformation mechanic - leaves you with a ship that can DPS exactly as well as a comprable science ship, but won't usually match due to lesser overall survivability (because her stats are based on the hybrid / midpoint between Sci ship and Destroyer...) leading to lost offense via respawn downtime or sacrificed offensive abilities to pack more healing.
You could try to run the DSD as a polaron-oriented destroyer, making it to where the cannons are essentially "down a proc". However, the fact that any death or inadvertent button press "locks you" into a "gimped Science Vessel" for a full minute means that, again, overall DPS will be "noticeably lower" than a stock destroyer in all but the most perfect of runs. Even then, the fact that the "baked in gun" is a DHC, means that we're going with the "target focused" Cannon build vs. the "BFaW Spamming and DPS-inflating" beams...
Hence why, in one of my earlier posts on the matter, I feel that the 4th weapon slot needs to be "freeform" like practically every other weapon slot in the game (I think only one escort/destroyer has a "baked in" aft turret, which does not mandate the course of build optimization like a forward weapon does, and I think the baked in gun is in a "bonus" slot, not one that is "expected" out of every other escort/destroyer). You want to slot an anti-proton array there, by all means, do. If it's a set antiproton, however, the set bonus only kicks in when the ship's in tac mode and the slot is available.
The "compromised" DSD still has "lower than a Sci ship" shields, and "less hull than a destroyer". It also suffers from the fact that the BOff seating does somewhat limit your "options" - Typical Science builds use different skills in the Ens/Lt/Lt Cmdr slot of that "switching BOff" than a Destroyer expects, same with the Ens / Lt / Lt Cmdr slots in that Tac seat. Having to choose between EPtW / EPtA, or figure out where to slot that extra heal to make up for the lesser shields/hull, etc. raises the "jack of all trades master of none" or "ship's built to fly in mode X a lot more than mode Y"...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
There's a lot I can say here but I'll keep this relatively brief to avoid beating yet another dead horse (see. 4th anniversary) on the forums.
We should keep in mind that this is arguably tangential to a T6 DSD. Yah, overall usefulness is an important concern, but 1. that doesn't particularly matter when demand is subjective (see. how the galaxy got a T6 version, it wasn't because the T5 was the ideal cruiser) and you can find some in this very thread and 2. you can sink the idea well before you get to stats (its technically an off faction ship with no particular canonical relevance to the game now. Try just explaining in game why anyone would bother upgrading the crazy prototypes before, say, a Sovereign or Defiant class.)
Anyway, to the ranting.
1. DPS being an important stat is, it must be stated, a popular convention (ie. to do with the perception of worth in STO end-game content.) I personally find its misleading fluff [see. FAW multi-shield-face inflation] people try to justify as important because its the easiest stat to log and consider (you find this with every game's mode of stat tracking). DPS is everything to some or even many people but others, like myself, strategy and more generalized performance/usefulness is more important to consider.
2. DSD damage being "highly compromised" is an exaggeration. When I use a DSD even compared to even a Vetsa or I never, ever find that I've incurred an insurmountable loss even just with the comparison of sci modes. The Vesta is better for pure sci but "better" doesn't equate to an outright handicap for using a DSD (much like a T5 mirror nova would be.) In the vast, vast, vast majority of STO content it can be a potent build if you know when to use both tac and sci modes (sticking to one only forces you into the worst aspect of the compromise, limitations in any one area. Don't do that, its missing the point completely. Swapping requires thought/timing but its the only reason (besides RR/KDF desperation and of course style) for using the DSD.)
3. Proton builds, as mentioned earlier, aren't the best option for ANY ship besides maybe a shuttle (with the EPW) because this game doesn't actually have the components (ie. normal consoles, more than 2 weapons) to support a proton build that's on par with any other damage type (even tricobalt). The consoles and locked cannon are there on the DSD but that doesn't obligate you (as with any c-store ship feature) to base your setup entirely on them. The cannon in particular is just a forward firepower buff that's scaled (by the unavailability of good proton consoles and its native damage) so that it doesn't exceed what you can do with an open weapons slot but still offers more straight weapon damage than a 6-slot sci ship. Treating it like a conventional DHC is not the way to go.
That leaves, for me, plasma DHC's and a romulan plasma torpedo. Those compliment both Tac and Sci aspects of the DSD very well. I can get more out of the crowd control-AOE angle than most other destroyers (thanks to a Cmdr sci slot) and push the conventional firepower angle more than other science ships (thanks to a Cmdr tac slot and slight boost to forward weaponry).
If I want to don't want to straddle that line there's a dozen alternatives to consider (ex. 2 of the last 3 anniversary ships, Vesta, Scimitar, tal shiar destroyer, ect.). If I do though there's the DSD. It has a small niche (though it does help to think of this in terms other than just what the FED wants) but it does have one (though it would definitely be helped by a shorter mode cooldown time, which is something well within cryptic's power to change now).
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
My Rom sci is pretty fond of the ship overall (though where's the secondary deflector getting shielded on the Rom version?)
Member Access Denied Armada!
My forum single-issue of rage: Make the Proton Experimental Weapon go for subsystem targetting!
I generally use the dysons on all my chara's (also Klingon/Romulan), because somehow the Vesta is not for me (so shoot me!). Even though I hope they will make decent SCI ships for all factions soon, they other races would at least have something.
P.S. Maybe give the ability to change the cannon damage type?
At that release, the KDF had the Veranus, the Roms the Ha'nom. With the DSDs, you can add one more to the mix. But it's still limited compared to Fed selections.
Temporal Science, Voth Palisade are options but that's getting into Lockbox territory and the high costs involved. Those are also T5 ships. The new Krenim Science Dread is T6 but let's not get into the costs involved in that.
Let's face it - spaceship technology's gone some sort of post-Singularity during the Federation-Klingon war, as fast as they're rushing out advances.
Member Access Denied Armada!
My forum single-issue of rage: Make the Proton Experimental Weapon go for subsystem targetting!