I've been having fun in my science oddy as a sci captain running 3 torps (2 quantums and the grav photon) forward with one forward phaser array and 2 torps aft (1 photon and 1 ticobolt) with 2 phaser arrays. with flow caps maxed and the uni seating on the oddy I run with target shields 3 and 2 copies of HYII. it's a work in progress getting the piloting and damage where i want them. on normal with such high flow caps a single phaser hit with TSSIII and sensor analysis all NPC shields drop guaranteed (because TSSIII and Sensor Analysis i'm draining over 100 from shield power). I'm testing now on advanced and while the shields don't drop as completely i still get the 40% chance to drop a facing so i have to be more creative and make more runs at a target. but it feels more like a trek space battle where i'm hunting and pecking for that kill shot. sometimes i get it on the first run sometimes it takes 2 or 3. I have a little more room for flow caps skill as i upgrade my consoles to epic so that should be helpful.
But i'm with those who like it for the fun factor.
All of my ships across 48 characters use at least one torpedo, but no one ship use more than 4 torpedoes in any given build. I'm not sure if that makes me a torpedo boat enthusiast or not.
I did some testing with the rapid-fire missile launcher this evening. I don't have a proper log parser (I play on a Mac, and haven't had much luck with the java-based parser), so I don't have total confidence in this result, but I'm almost certain that the missile launcher does in fact proc projectile doffs.
Testing was simple: I went into combat with a single torpedo (10-sec cooldown) and the missile launcher, and a single projectile doff. I tested several times with just the torpedo firing, and as expected, I saw only occasional procs; the vast majority of cooldowns were the full 10 seconds.
I then tested several times with both the torpedo and the missile launcher firing, and consistently saw significantly more procs.
It might be worthwhile for someone with a log parser to perform some more rigorous tests.
I, as well, am impressed with the number of different people posting their interest and/or history with torpedo loadouts.
A few things:
1) For those who max Flow Capacitors, Neutronic is your best torpedo by a light year. The AoE drain component combined w/ strong kinetic damage gives it a very deadly punch in both PvE and PvP.
2) If the Ferengi Missile Launcher IS activating the Torpedo CD DOff's, then you will see it reduce the cd on torps by 5sec (iirc) per proc. It is very noticeable.
3) Sci-Torp seems to be the most prevalent. A spec tree combo of Intel/Pilot or Pilot/Intel would best serve those ships without "enough" energy weapons capable of triggering Exposes (from the Tier 1 Space section of Command).
i actually run with the command tree as primary with intel. i find if you slow the game down a bit the procs tend to hit at opportune times (i'm testing having an aft turret for a cheap alternative to get 8 shots on target in a 360 radius and it's been effective). my alpha strike is TSSIII, SA, Sensor Scan III, HYII Grav, quantum, quantum, then another HYII Grav - when the BO mod procs on my phasers right after TSIII and Expose hits with Achilles heel (which always procs on first hit) its a pretty sight to see. Well, at least from my bridge position. And that's not counting the crits. I call it my Mike Tyson build minus the ear biting.
my biggest complaint about torpedoes can be found here. Aside from slow moving projectiles that track their target, make contact, create the contact visual with exploding nonsense, with a little damage floater that pops up saying "critical" yet reported as a miss.
2) If the Ferengi Missile Launcher IS activating the Torpedo CD DOff's, then you will see it reduce the cd on torps by 5sec (iirc) per proc. It is very noticeable.
The proc itself is very noticeable -- it's just difficult to be certain that the proc was caused by the missile launcher rather than the torpedo launcher itself. It would be easier with a slower-firing torpedo; if the reduction happens toward the end of the cooldown, you know it's the missile launcher triggering the proc. I actually have a Temporal Disruption Device, which I believe has a rather long cooldown; I'll test again with that.
EDIT: Confirmed with the TDD, the Missile Launcher definitely procs projectile doffs. I saw several instances where the proc happened in the latter half of the TDD's 20-second cooldown, and once I saw two procs happen in the same cooldown.
So say you've got a 12.5-sec cooldown torp, such as the Neutronic with the two-piece bonus, and a single doff. You'd expect one proc per five firings on average, making for an average cooldown of 11.5 seconds -- about an 8.7% increase in the torp's DPS.
Add the missile launcher and now you have six launches per 12.5 seconds. You can now expect an average of 1.2 procs per 12.5 seconds, resulting in an average cooldown on the Neutronic of 6.5 seconds, or an increase of about 92%.
Obviously that's assuming you have both torps firing constantly, which isn't reasonable, but still -- it seems as if the missile launcher has reasonable value given how it can improve other torps.
2) If the Ferengi Missile Launcher IS activating the Torpedo CD DOff's, then you will see it reduce the cd on torps by 5sec (iirc) per proc. It is very noticeable.
The proc itself is very noticeable -- it's just difficult to be certain that the proc was caused by the missile launcher rather than the torpedo launcher itself. It would be easier with a slower-firing torpedo; if the reduction happens toward the end of the cooldown, you know it's the missile launcher triggering the proc. I actually have a Temporal Disruption Device, which I believe has a rather long cooldown; I'll test again with that.
EDIT: Confirmed with the TDD, the Missile Launcher definitely procs projectile doffs. I saw several instances where the proc happened in the latter half of the TDD's 20-second cooldown, and once I saw two procs happen in the same cooldown.
So say you've got a 12.5-sec cooldown torp, such as the Neutronic with the two-piece bonus, and a single doff. You'd expect one proc per five firings on average, making for an average cooldown of 11.5 seconds -- about an 8.7% increase in the torp's DPS.
Add the missile launcher and now you have six launches per 12.5 seconds. You can now expect an average of 1.2 procs per 12.5 seconds, resulting in an average cooldown on the Neutronic of 6.5 seconds, or an increase of about 92%.
Obviously that's assuming you have both torps firing constantly, which isn't reasonable, but still -- it seems as if the missile launcher has reasonable value given how it can improve other torps.
People have run and briefly written about using the Ferengi Missile Launcher in conjunction with, multiple in one case, Breen Cluster Torpedoes fore in previous forum incarnations. I seem to remember one chap mentioning that it did effect the Cluster cd rate.
People have run and briefly written about using the Ferengi Missile Launcher in conjunction with, multiple in one case, Breen Cluster Torpedoes fore in previous forum incarnations. I seem to remember one chap mentioning that it did effect the Cluster cd rate.
Now that is interesting. Normally the Cluster is only effected by Mine Skills (not the number of mines, but the damage buff).
Next time I'm on I'll go and dig my ferengi missile out of the bank... I'll have to remember what toon I tested it on. Last I tested it... by just firing it to reudce a long duration torp. It did nothing at all... perhaps it was bugged and fixed or something. Cryptic is famous for breaking something and not even knowing it and then fixing it and not even knowing it. Like I say I'll retest but last I checked around a year ago it did not work at all with doffs. Perhaps its changed will update. Would be good to know for sure.
Honestly if it is fixed... I would still say its a pointless weapon... photons have the same 20% chance to proc and at 6s reset themselves every proc (with 3 doffs that is 48.8% chance to reset itself every fire... and if your second weapon also has the same chance to reset Meaning with 2 torps you chance of hitting global "1s" fire rate on a photon is 78.8% if your second weapon is a rep weapon with a 6-8s regular cool down the chances of missing a global are not much over 10% so the ferengi gets pretty pointless) . Still better off with one of those considering they do 10x the base dmg compared to the ferengi.
I also just tested the Ferengi Missiles with a Cluster. It definitely reduces the CD on the Cluster.
I am fairly certain a combination of cluster and wide-angle torpedo is the currently best way to incorporate a torp fore and aft into a beam cruiser. Well, maybe outside two wide-angle torpedoes. But I didn't test that, as the missiles don't fit the theme and the transphasic coming with the Bulwark is WAY out of reach at over 500m EC.
AFAIR the Clusters benefit from +damage type, but not from +torp. I remember reading about the Missile Launcher as a reliable way to reduce the CD on Breen Clusters on Transphasic Boats, back when the Breen Cluster was the only one we had. Built around the Breen Set and +Transphasic Tac Consoles I can see that having been a thing.
Sadly I'm restricted to my notebook for at least two more weaks, so I can hardly test that stuff properly.
If you've got a photon torp and three projectile doffs, you've got three chances per launch to get a proc. The advantage I see with the Ferengi missile launcher is that you get the same three chances in the same amount of time (or half a second less, IIRC) with only a single projectile doff, letting you slot two alternate doffs.
Perhaps another way to look at it is this:
If you have two ten-second torps and three projectile doffs, you get six chances at cooldown reduction every ten seconds. If you have one ten-second torp, one Ferengi missile launcher, and one projectile doff, you get five chances every ten seconds. So you trade one chance at a proc for two alternate doffs.
Additionally, if you happen to be running Command spec (even as a secondary), you get five chances to proc the torp effects from the spec for every two chances you'd get with the first setup. Whether that matters or not, I'm not sure.
Ok I went and tested it the Ferengi missile is fixed. So yes it does proc torp doffs.
However I will stand by saying it is the stupidest weapon you could possibly slot on any ship ever.
Base dmg on a mk 12 Ferengi is 1250 (aprox) with a 2s recharge -zero in projectiles
Base dmg on a mk 12 photon is 4100 (aprox) with a 6s recharge -zero in projectiles
With 3 doffs there is a 48.8% chance that either weapon will completely reset its cool down. (-5s from doff leaves 1s on photon however there is a 1s global anyway, so it fires as fast as the ferengi if both proc)
So doing some math... lets assume we are in battle for 30s with only ONE torpedo slotted.
Frengi... WILL take 15 shots no matter doff procs. For a total of 18,750 Total dmg
Photon... Will take 5 shots no matter doff procs. For a total of 20,500 Total dmg
Ferengi SHOULD proc resets aprox 7 times Accounting for 7 more fires Meaning on average it should provide 27.500 dmg over 30s with 3 doffs.
Photon should proc 2.5 times... granted you won't really get a 2.5 but I'll do the math anyway cause half the time you'll get 3 and half 2. The math works out to 30.750 dmg. (granted it is close)
Now this is where you might say ya but you have procced your doffs reducing the cool downs on something like a Cluster or Tric or Time torp or some other long duration. However the truth is all those weapons have global cool downs anyway. If you do the math on a Photon with 3 doffs... in 45s it will proc on average a little over 5 times. Which means it will reduce a 45s global weapon to just shy of global anyway. Meaning the difference between the ferengi and a REGULAR photon for proccing long duration is nearly the same. Only you loose out on a ton of dmg. I calcualted those numbers at low (zero spec) base numbers. Counting buffs and dmg boosts the photons will far exceed the ferengi.
You also have to consider the standard photon isn't really the way to go either. If you are only going to run one and your running it for procs you are far better off with the Enhanced Bio Photon. Which is also a 6s weapon... but adds another 28% dmg in a direct to hull rad explosion, as well as reducing target speeds which make it easier to degrade defense and rack dmg up further. (just doing the math adding the rad dmg... the bio photon in the above scenario would be providing 39,360.. of which 8,610 is direct hull dmg)
Bottom line if you are looking for a torp to proc torp doffs... you are much better off with the bio-enhanced photon. Which on its own will reduce long duration torps like the cluster to global cool down 3/4 of the time. While providing far more DPS. The numbers are close on the resets and it will be true that the ferengi will hit global on those weapons almost 100% of the time... really though its juts not worth the cost, the ferengi dmg is just pathetic, I did some base math there, add in mk 14 version bumps, and buffs and spec and consoles and the ferengi is just plain out classed, by the humble photon.
If you are in a situation where your running 2 torpedos like a Bio photon + grav torp or neut or any other torpedo with out a long cool down. The Ferengi weapon isn't even worth calculating at that point there is no doubt its useless.
EDIT... for the record. No a ferengi torp doesn't have the same chance to reduce with one doff as a photon with 3. It is in fact = to a photon with 2. The ferengi does fire every 2s... but it isn't a simple 2-6 calc because everytime you fire a torp there is a 1s global. Which means the ferengi fires twice for every one photon not 3 times.
Also of note: HY firing mode that results in salvo's (Photon's, Quantum's, and the like) have a chance to trigger any eligible torpedo DOff for EACH torpedo that is fired within the salvo.
I am seeing a lot of fancy equipment mentioned that I don't have access to. is it possible to build a good torpedo boat using rep gear through counter command and nothing from fleets?
Let us know what ships you have that you want to torp boat... and I'm sure a few people could give you inexpensive starter torp boat setups. Honestly a good basic torp boat is pretty cheap. The only things that are really worth having fleet wise are Tac consoles and a Warp core... and if you willing to drop upgrades on the right rep/mission/event cores you don't need the fleet core for AMP mods. The spire Tac consoles are just nice to have, if you want to be king of the hill and pump 70+k dps ya you would likely need those... if you want a very competent 40k range build you can do it on the cheap. (no different from energy builds that way)
T'varo and B'rel retrofits. I've been working the rep system to get the romulan singularity harness.. anyone know if that boosts the big red beachball?
T'varo and B'rel retrofits. I've been working the rep system to get the romulan singularity harness.. anyone know if that boosts the big red beachball?
The answer on the harness set. Is no. The 2 piece buff plasma energy not kinetic.
I'll post you some good cheap builds for both those ships in a little while.
My mistake, I thought photons fired every 8 seconds, not every 6. (The missile has a 0.5 firing time and a 1.9 recharge time, so I guess it fires every 2.4 sec.) But as you say, people don't tend to use plain old photons. I more typically am using a Neutronic (12.5 sec with set bonus) or the new resonant transphasic (10 sec). So with a single projectile doff:
Neutronic + Photon: ~1 launch per 4.05 sec; 4.05 / 0.2 = 1 proc every ~20 sec
Neutronic + Missile: ~2 launch per 2.02 sec; 2.02 / 0.2 = 1 proc every ~10 sec
I see your argument about losing benefit as you approach/hit the global cooldown, but that seems to be a problem that comes only as you add more doffs. So perhaps the answer isn't that one is always better than the other, but rather that the missile launcher is your better choice if you want to slot only a single doff, while slower-firing torps are better if you want to slot more.
As for the Command procs, I'm not 100% sure how they function. If they affect the next torpedo to hit, then the missile launcher has no real advantage. If they affect every torpedo to hit within a window of time, then the missile launcher is going to land more hits within the window, but the only real benefit from that is taking down more shield.
Kemocite-Laced Weaponry may be one area where the missile launcher has a distinct advantage, as torpedoes have a 100% chance to proc the effect, and it's a flat damage value, not a percentage of the torpedo damage.
The plasma envelope consoles will boost the beech ball... here is a break down of starter ec costs.
- Cheap Emission torp - 1.5 mil (buy a better one later or upgrade but the cheapo is fine to start with)
- Plasma torps x 3 - 100-500k (no need for anything fancy a few mk 12 purples good to go, if your really going to want to min max later you will replace them with lobi and rep torps anyway)
- Plasma mine - 20-50k (again upgrade a perfect mod one from level 2 or something if you get serious about min maxing it)
- Breen cluster - free
- Harpang - free
- Plasma envelope consolesx4 = 200k
- Crafted sci console with +kinetic resist 1.5 mil (you can put what ever here really but as a starter torp boat that isn't used to the cloaked piloting 90% of what will kill you will be torps launched at you this console is pretty cheap and gives you a ton of free kinetic resist)
- Particle gen console - 50k
- Neutronium Alloy mk 12s x 3 = 900k (lots of armour if you get serious you replace these with lobi and rep consoles but starting out the extra armour is nice to have anyway)
Total cost = around 4.5-5 mil assuming you don't already have a bunch of this stuff. If you really can't scrap that much EC, you can forget the Crafted torp right away... and or the crafted sci console. If you just slot another plasma torp and a another basic science console you can put this together for a little over 1mil ec.
Long term if you want to super buff plasma kinetic dmg... you are looking at a lot of Lobi stuff. All the good set bonuses for kinetic plasma comes from lobi. (which does suck)
Sets to look at long term are the Contractual Agreement Set the mine is terrible, but the console and torpedo are good enough to gain the bonus plasma dmg. (I often run the set torp in the rear as its not that great really)
The newest set with the Plasmatic Biomatter Torpedo Launcher + Console - Hatchery Master Controller can add another plasma +dmg bonus.
Realize I didn't cost doffs... 3 projectile doffs clearly are a must, outside of that the only doff I would suggest as soon as you can afford one is the Matter Ani Matter doff that boosts the duration of aux to damp. This doff is great for every non aux to bat build in the game anyway.
I played one for the first time a few weeks ago and still managed to get the job done...but it was monotonous! It just too so much longer than with beam weapons.
I played one for the first time a few weeks ago and still managed to get the job done...but it was monotonous! It just too so much longer than with beam weapons.
When DR came out, I was running a few torp boats, and had similar issues. I'm much better armed with information these days so my torp boat is setup much better than before. It's just as good as my energy weapon builds these days. Maybe you should post your build and request advice, it might end up being very helpful.
was toying with an HEC build. I have maxed reps though CC working Delta and starting Iconian. http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=hect5u_1513
using the CC deflector for the projectile training SI and Shileds buffs, the AMACO set for torp bonus,
hydro for the accuracy and proton stab for the arsenal bonus. would like suggestions for the missing slots
I thought the missile did work with the Torp DOff. I can't really see any other reason to use it.
I don't know if I have any Spire Warheads. I think the last Fleet Consoles I got was for the plasma build. I will have to look in to that.
There are Tric-Specific DOff that boost their flight speed. Those would probably offset some of their drawbacks, especially coupled with the Cooldown DOffs.
I like TDD. It's fun to play it and it looks nice. I use it as a High Yield for the AoE while still in-flight. I like to fire it in the middle of a Spread of destructibles and a Hyper-Plasma. I may add some Emission-Plasmas to the mix. Just death ball everywhere.
Indeed the Ferengi missile is useless.
Lets see if I can post yet as I have been blocked for days. The missiles are great as a single torp shield drain setup or as a torp boat on shuttles. What you do is get the command specialization with Tachyon chargers and a flow build then all missiles drains shields. For shuttles I like to take 1 missile triggering doffs with 1 slower torpedo which can make a great torp boat shuttle.
I thought the missile did work with the Torp DOff. I can't really see any other reason to use it.
I don't know if I have any Spire Warheads. I think the last Fleet Consoles I got was for the plasma build. I will have to look in to that.
There are Tric-Specific DOff that boost their flight speed. Those would probably offset some of their drawbacks, especially coupled with the Cooldown DOffs.
I like TDD. It's fun to play it and it looks nice. I use it as a High Yield for the AoE while still in-flight. I like to fire it in the middle of a Spread of destructibles and a Hyper-Plasma. I may add some Emission-Plasmas to the mix. Just death ball everywhere.
Indeed the Ferengi missile is useless.
Lets see if I can post yet as I have been blocked for days. The missiles are great as a single torp shield drain setup or as a torp boat on shuttles. What you do is get the command specialization with Tachyon chargers and a flow build then all missiles drains shields. For shuttles I like to take 1 missile triggering doffs with 1 slower torpedo which can make a great torp boat shuttle.
On a shuttle... fair I never considered it for that. As a shuttle weapon I could see the potential where the targets have low HP and one photon often kills single targets x10.
On a torp setup ship though where you have at least 3 fore weapons dedicated to torps... as long as at least 2 of them are 6-8s recharge, I don't see the point of the missile. At that point the photons will fire just as often and hit a lot harder and offer procs. If you are taking about a full on torp boat with 4 fore and 3 doffs you will really never run into a situation where you don't have a torp to fire every second.
As a shuttle weapon that makes sense... I may have to slot one on my 2 torp shuttle. I have 2 photons and a spread 1 on there and it cleans up shuttle missions... will have to test the ferengi and see. I have it sitting in the bank collecting dust anyway. (along side other stupid weapons like the long range tet weapon and the plasmotic turret.)
took it to the dyson battlezone and did ok the tool top was showing 10K damage on the launchers and I was getting crits from 7-16K. currently using 1 purple and 2 blue projectile doffs
On a torp setup ship though where you have at least 3 fore weapons dedicated to torps... as long as at least 2 of them are 6-8s recharge, I don't see the point of the missile. At that point the photons will fire just as often and hit a lot harder and offer procs. If you are taking about a full on torp boat with 4 fore and 3 doffs you will really never run into a situation where you don't have a torp to fire every second.
I agree. The missile is best as the solo torp for shield drain or when it’s the proc weapon for something like cluster torps. Missiles are not a good choice for anything but fun on the most common builds for torp boats.
For shuttles 1 missile with Particle Emission Plasma, cluster, Hargh'peng or Neutronic works well with a torp spread 1 power. Personally I like the missile Hargh'peng combo.
On a torp setup ship though where you have at least 3 fore weapons dedicated to torps... as long as at least 2 of them are 6-8s recharge, I don't see the point of the missile. At that point the photons will fire just as often and hit a lot harder and offer procs. If you are taking about a full on torp boat with 4 fore and 3 doffs you will really never run into a situation where you don't have a torp to fire every second.
I agree. The missile is best as the solo torp for shield drain or when it’s the proc weapon for something like cluster torps. Missiles are not a good choice for anything but fun on the most common builds for torp boats.
For shuttles 1 missile with Particle Emission Plasma, cluster, Hargh'peng or Neutronic works well with a torp spread 1 power. Personally I like the missile Hargh'peng combo.
For shuttles, I'm quite the fan of the bio-neural warhead and a PEP or Neutrinic (depending on the content). Can swap between TS and HY on the fly. 14.9km out, fire the warhead at the biggest target, and watch it shoot things en-route to the target, or weaken shields on the primary target. Chase w/ torp of choice.
On a torp setup ship though where you have at least 3 fore weapons dedicated to torps... as long as at least 2 of them are 6-8s recharge, I don't see the point of the missile. At that point the photons will fire just as often and hit a lot harder and offer procs. If you are taking about a full on torp boat with 4 fore and 3 doffs you will really never run into a situation where you don't have a torp to fire every second.
I agree. The missile is best as the solo torp for shield drain or when it’s the proc weapon for something like cluster torps. Missiles are not a good choice for anything but fun on the most common builds for torp boats.
For shuttles 1 missile with Particle Emission Plasma, cluster, Hargh'peng or Neutronic works well with a torp spread 1 power. Personally I like the missile Hargh'peng combo.
For shuttles, I'm quite the fan of the bio-neural warhead and a PEP or Neutrinic (depending on the content). Can swap between TS and HY on the fly. 14.9km out, fire the warhead at the biggest target, and watch it shoot things en-route to the target, or weaken shields on the primary target. Chase w/ torp of choice.
Shuttles really do depend on the content. When I used to run the vault a lot I found the PEP and clusters a little slow always chasseing after the fighters. But some of the more recent shuttle content worked really well with the slower torpedo's. NWS was great with the PEP. I have to admit not really tried the Bio interesting idea and it doesn't really matter if its slow in the vault.
Comments
But i'm with those who like it for the fun factor.
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Testing was simple: I went into combat with a single torpedo (10-sec cooldown) and the missile launcher, and a single projectile doff. I tested several times with just the torpedo firing, and as expected, I saw only occasional procs; the vast majority of cooldowns were the full 10 seconds.
I then tested several times with both the torpedo and the missile launcher firing, and consistently saw significantly more procs.
It might be worthwhile for someone with a log parser to perform some more rigorous tests.
A few things:
1) For those who max Flow Capacitors, Neutronic is your best torpedo by a light year. The AoE drain component combined w/ strong kinetic damage gives it a very deadly punch in both PvE and PvP.
2) If the Ferengi Missile Launcher IS activating the Torpedo CD DOff's, then you will see it reduce the cd on torps by 5sec (iirc) per proc. It is very noticeable.
3) Sci-Torp seems to be the most prevalent. A spec tree combo of Intel/Pilot or Pilot/Intel would best serve those ships without "enough" energy weapons capable of triggering Exposes (from the Tier 1 Space section of Command).
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
my biggest complaint about torpedoes can be found here. Aside from slow moving projectiles that track their target, make contact, create the contact visual with exploding nonsense, with a little damage floater that pops up saying "critical" yet reported as a miss.
The proc itself is very noticeable -- it's just difficult to be certain that the proc was caused by the missile launcher rather than the torpedo launcher itself. It would be easier with a slower-firing torpedo; if the reduction happens toward the end of the cooldown, you know it's the missile launcher triggering the proc. I actually have a Temporal Disruption Device, which I believe has a rather long cooldown; I'll test again with that.
EDIT: Confirmed with the TDD, the Missile Launcher definitely procs projectile doffs. I saw several instances where the proc happened in the latter half of the TDD's 20-second cooldown, and once I saw two procs happen in the same cooldown.
So say you've got a 12.5-sec cooldown torp, such as the Neutronic with the two-piece bonus, and a single doff. You'd expect one proc per five firings on average, making for an average cooldown of 11.5 seconds -- about an 8.7% increase in the torp's DPS.
Add the missile launcher and now you have six launches per 12.5 seconds. You can now expect an average of 1.2 procs per 12.5 seconds, resulting in an average cooldown on the Neutronic of 6.5 seconds, or an increase of about 92%.
Obviously that's assuming you have both torps firing constantly, which isn't reasonable, but still -- it seems as if the missile launcher has reasonable value given how it can improve other torps.
People have run and briefly written about using the Ferengi Missile Launcher in conjunction with, multiple in one case, Breen Cluster Torpedoes fore in previous forum incarnations. I seem to remember one chap mentioning that it did effect the Cluster cd rate.
Now that is interesting. Normally the Cluster is only effected by Mine Skills (not the number of mines, but the damage buff).
Honestly if it is fixed... I would still say its a pointless weapon... photons have the same 20% chance to proc and at 6s reset themselves every proc (with 3 doffs that is 48.8% chance to reset itself every fire... and if your second weapon also has the same chance to reset Meaning with 2 torps you chance of hitting global "1s" fire rate on a photon is 78.8% if your second weapon is a rep weapon with a 6-8s regular cool down the chances of missing a global are not much over 10% so the ferengi gets pretty pointless) . Still better off with one of those considering they do 10x the base dmg compared to the ferengi.
I also just tested the Ferengi Missiles with a Cluster. It definitely reduces the CD on the Cluster.
I am fairly certain a combination of cluster and wide-angle torpedo is the currently best way to incorporate a torp fore and aft into a beam cruiser. Well, maybe outside two wide-angle torpedoes. But I didn't test that, as the missiles don't fit the theme and the transphasic coming with the Bulwark is WAY out of reach at over 500m EC.
AFAIR the Clusters benefit from +damage type, but not from +torp. I remember reading about the Missile Launcher as a reliable way to reduce the CD on Breen Clusters on Transphasic Boats, back when the Breen Cluster was the only one we had. Built around the Breen Set and +Transphasic Tac Consoles I can see that having been a thing.
Sadly I'm restricted to my notebook for at least two more weaks, so I can hardly test that stuff properly.
Perhaps another way to look at it is this:
If you have two ten-second torps and three projectile doffs, you get six chances at cooldown reduction every ten seconds. If you have one ten-second torp, one Ferengi missile launcher, and one projectile doff, you get five chances every ten seconds. So you trade one chance at a proc for two alternate doffs.
Additionally, if you happen to be running Command spec (even as a secondary), you get five chances to proc the torp effects from the spec for every two chances you'd get with the first setup. Whether that matters or not, I'm not sure.
However I will stand by saying it is the stupidest weapon you could possibly slot on any ship ever.
Base dmg on a mk 12 Ferengi is 1250 (aprox) with a 2s recharge -zero in projectiles
Base dmg on a mk 12 photon is 4100 (aprox) with a 6s recharge -zero in projectiles
With 3 doffs there is a 48.8% chance that either weapon will completely reset its cool down. (-5s from doff leaves 1s on photon however there is a 1s global anyway, so it fires as fast as the ferengi if both proc)
So doing some math... lets assume we are in battle for 30s with only ONE torpedo slotted.
Frengi... WILL take 15 shots no matter doff procs. For a total of 18,750 Total dmg
Photon... Will take 5 shots no matter doff procs. For a total of 20,500 Total dmg
Ferengi SHOULD proc resets aprox 7 times Accounting for 7 more fires Meaning on average it should provide 27.500 dmg over 30s with 3 doffs.
Photon should proc 2.5 times... granted you won't really get a 2.5 but I'll do the math anyway cause half the time you'll get 3 and half 2. The math works out to 30.750 dmg. (granted it is close)
Now this is where you might say ya but you have procced your doffs reducing the cool downs on something like a Cluster or Tric or Time torp or some other long duration. However the truth is all those weapons have global cool downs anyway. If you do the math on a Photon with 3 doffs... in 45s it will proc on average a little over 5 times. Which means it will reduce a 45s global weapon to just shy of global anyway. Meaning the difference between the ferengi and a REGULAR photon for proccing long duration is nearly the same. Only you loose out on a ton of dmg. I calcualted those numbers at low (zero spec) base numbers. Counting buffs and dmg boosts the photons will far exceed the ferengi.
You also have to consider the standard photon isn't really the way to go either. If you are only going to run one and your running it for procs you are far better off with the Enhanced Bio Photon. Which is also a 6s weapon... but adds another 28% dmg in a direct to hull rad explosion, as well as reducing target speeds which make it easier to degrade defense and rack dmg up further. (just doing the math adding the rad dmg... the bio photon in the above scenario would be providing 39,360.. of which 8,610 is direct hull dmg)
Bottom line if you are looking for a torp to proc torp doffs... you are much better off with the bio-enhanced photon. Which on its own will reduce long duration torps like the cluster to global cool down 3/4 of the time. While providing far more DPS. The numbers are close on the resets and it will be true that the ferengi will hit global on those weapons almost 100% of the time... really though its juts not worth the cost, the ferengi dmg is just pathetic, I did some base math there, add in mk 14 version bumps, and buffs and spec and consoles and the ferengi is just plain out classed, by the humble photon.
If you are in a situation where your running 2 torpedos like a Bio photon + grav torp or neut or any other torpedo with out a long cool down. The Ferengi weapon isn't even worth calculating at that point there is no doubt its useless.
EDIT... for the record. No a ferengi torp doesn't have the same chance to reduce with one doff as a photon with 3. It is in fact = to a photon with 2. The ferengi does fire every 2s... but it isn't a simple 2-6 calc because everytime you fire a torp there is a 1s global. Which means the ferengi fires twice for every one photon not 3 times.
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
T'varo and B'rel retrofits. I've been working the rep system to get the romulan singularity harness.. anyone know if that boosts the big red beachball?
The answer on the harness set. Is no. The 2 piece buff plasma energy not kinetic.
I'll post you some good cheap builds for both those ships in a little while.
Neutronic + Photon: ~1 launch per 4.05 sec; 4.05 / 0.2 = 1 proc every ~20 sec
Neutronic + Missile: ~2 launch per 2.02 sec; 2.02 / 0.2 = 1 proc every ~10 sec
I see your argument about losing benefit as you approach/hit the global cooldown, but that seems to be a problem that comes only as you add more doffs. So perhaps the answer isn't that one is always better than the other, but rather that the missile launcher is your better choice if you want to slot only a single doff, while slower-firing torps are better if you want to slot more.
As for the Command procs, I'm not 100% sure how they function. If they affect the next torpedo to hit, then the missile launcher has no real advantage. If they affect every torpedo to hit within a window of time, then the missile launcher is going to land more hits within the window, but the only real benefit from that is taking down more shield.
Kemocite-Laced Weaponry may be one area where the missile launcher has a distinct advantage, as torpedoes have a 100% chance to proc the effect, and it's a flat damage value, not a percentage of the torpedo damage.
Here is a good basic starter varo plasma build.
The plasma envelope consoles will boost the beech ball... here is a break down of starter ec costs.
- Cheap Emission torp - 1.5 mil (buy a better one later or upgrade but the cheapo is fine to start with)
- Plasma torps x 3 - 100-500k (no need for anything fancy a few mk 12 purples good to go, if your really going to want to min max later you will replace them with lobi and rep torps anyway)
- Plasma mine - 20-50k (again upgrade a perfect mod one from level 2 or something if you get serious about min maxing it)
- Breen cluster - free
- Harpang - free
- Plasma envelope consolesx4 = 200k
- Crafted sci console with +kinetic resist 1.5 mil (you can put what ever here really but as a starter torp boat that isn't used to the cloaked piloting 90% of what will kill you will be torps launched at you this console is pretty cheap and gives you a ton of free kinetic resist)
- Particle gen console - 50k
- Neutronium Alloy mk 12s x 3 = 900k (lots of armour if you get serious you replace these with lobi and rep consoles but starting out the extra armour is nice to have anyway)
Total cost = around 4.5-5 mil assuming you don't already have a bunch of this stuff. If you really can't scrap that much EC, you can forget the Crafted torp right away... and or the crafted sci console. If you just slot another plasma torp and a another basic science console you can put this together for a little over 1mil ec.
Long term if you want to super buff plasma kinetic dmg... you are looking at a lot of Lobi stuff. All the good set bonuses for kinetic plasma comes from lobi. (which does suck)
Sets to look at long term are the Contractual Agreement Set the mine is terrible, but the console and torpedo are good enough to gain the bonus plasma dmg. (I often run the set torp in the rear as its not that great really)
The newest set with the Plasmatic Biomatter Torpedo Launcher + Console - Hatchery Master Controller can add another plasma +dmg bonus.
Realize I didn't cost doffs... 3 projectile doffs clearly are a must, outside of that the only doff I would suggest as soon as you can afford one is the Matter Ani Matter doff that boosts the duration of aux to damp. This doff is great for every non aux to bat build in the game anyway.
When DR came out, I was running a few torp boats, and had similar issues. I'm much better armed with information these days so my torp boat is setup much better than before. It's just as good as my energy weapon builds these days. Maybe you should post your build and request advice, it might end up being very helpful.
http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=hect5u_1513
using the CC deflector for the projectile training SI and Shileds buffs, the AMACO set for torp bonus,
hydro for the accuracy and proton stab for the arsenal bonus. would like suggestions for the missing slots
On a shuttle... fair I never considered it for that. As a shuttle weapon I could see the potential where the targets have low HP and one photon often kills single targets x10.
On a torp setup ship though where you have at least 3 fore weapons dedicated to torps... as long as at least 2 of them are 6-8s recharge, I don't see the point of the missile. At that point the photons will fire just as often and hit a lot harder and offer procs. If you are taking about a full on torp boat with 4 fore and 3 doffs you will really never run into a situation where you don't have a torp to fire every second.
As a shuttle weapon that makes sense... I may have to slot one on my 2 torp shuttle. I have 2 photons and a spread 1 on there and it cleans up shuttle missions... will have to test the ferengi and see. I have it sitting in the bank collecting dust anyway. (along side other stupid weapons like the long range tet weapon and the plasmotic turret.)
For shuttles 1 missile with Particle Emission Plasma, cluster, Hargh'peng or Neutronic works well with a torp spread 1 power. Personally I like the missile Hargh'peng combo.
For shuttles, I'm quite the fan of the bio-neural warhead and a PEP or Neutrinic (depending on the content). Can swap between TS and HY on the fly. 14.9km out, fire the warhead at the biggest target, and watch it shoot things en-route to the target, or weaken shields on the primary target. Chase w/ torp of choice.
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
Shuttles really do depend on the content. When I used to run the vault a lot I found the PEP and clusters a little slow always chasseing after the fighters. But some of the more recent shuttle content worked really well with the slower torpedo's. NWS was great with the PEP. I have to admit not really tried the Bio interesting idea and it doesn't really matter if its slow in the vault.