BFAW doesn't need adjusting, it's every other skill that needs readjusting, for better performance!
This!
Other weapon types just need to be brought up to the same level. You can love or hate the way FAW works, but it's not OP, other powers just just under performing.
People already got their Embassy Console Nerf, stop trying to bury other builds under tons of Nerfs. Instead, focus on getting other skills/items up to par. BFAW is the bar, lets get other weapon types up to that bar..
BFAW doesn't need adjusting, it's every other skill that needs readjusting, for better performance!
This!
Other weapon types just need to be brought up to the same level. You can love or hate the way FAW works, but it's not OP, other powers just just under performing.
People already got their Embassy Console Nerf, stop trying to bury other builds under tons of Nerfs. Instead, focus on getting other skills/items up to par. BFAW is the bar, lets get other weapon types up to that bar..
Lowering the bar helps no one.
Actually, raising the bar doesn't help anyone. That's not how this sort of thing works, nor has ever worked. That's the problem, a lot of players don't understand that there's a zero sum equation going on behind the scenes. If they just buff CSV to meet BFaW... then what? More people start doing more damage and average completion times go down. Good, right? Except... no, because well, the developers don't want that. They want you to get X reward for Y time invested (even if their implementation is sloppy). If the average starts to go down, and people are mostly completing stuff faster they start nerfing rewards or they start increasing enemy hit points so that everyone goes back to taking Y amount of time to smash through those bags of hit points we call enemies in order to get that X reward.
We've seen this time and time again. There's a zero sum game going on and if you haven't noticed it's because you haven't been reading the patch notes. NPC hit points rise in relation to the average damage players do, and optional timers get shorter.
There's that old saying: There are no free lunches.
So no, lowering the bar doesn't help anyone, but neither does raising it because no matter where the bar is Cryptic will make sure the average players' completion times remain relatively unchanged. As such nerfs aren't bad unless they're handled badly, and they're no more apt to be badly handled than buffs are, and if CSV is boosted to the point that BFaW becomes pointless (effectively an indirect nerf) are you going to be any happier than if BFaW is directly nerfed? Probably not.
So then the question is... what takes more developer time? Dealing with the one problem, which everyone knows is out performing the competition, and how it's out performing the competition, or taking all of BO, CSV and CRF and buffing them all and trying to find a way to make them all seem viable and fill their own niche?
BFAW doesn't need adjusting, it's every other skill that needs readjusting, for better performance!
This!
Other weapon types just need to be brought up to the same level. You can love or hate the way FAW works, but it's not OP, other powers just just under performing.
People already got their Embassy Console Nerf, stop trying to bury other builds under tons of Nerfs. Instead, focus on getting other skills/items up to par. BFAW is the bar, lets get other weapon types up to that bar..
Lowering the bar helps no one.
This. But Nerf it nerf it good, nerf it nerf it real good!
Lets be that, we're effed.
And Nerf it Nerf it good, Nerfit nerfit real good. <- we seem to want it, we'll get it.
Galavant!
"Use Temporal Skills to NERF EVERYTHING before it happened!" -Unknown source.
BFAW doesn't need adjusting, it's every other skill that needs readjusting, for better performance!
I concur why does BFAW have to be nerfed, why not buff everything else. so everyone can have their cake and eat it. Not everything needs to be hit with a nerf bat, sometimes its nice to go in the opposite direction.
Actually, raising the bar doesn't help anyone. That's not how this sort of thing works, nor has ever worked. That's the problem, a lot of players don't understand that there's a zero sum equation going on behind the scenes. If they just buff CSV to meet BFaW... then what? More people start doing more damage and average completion times go down.
Completion times will remain exactly the same as they are now.
When a build is inferior, like in this case with Cannons, people just don't use it. Do an STF Mission and you'll see that everyone is running BFAW, even Escorts are running Beams. Bringing Cannons up won't improve completion times, you're bringing things up to the current 'meta.' The only difference you'll see is more varied combinations of builds.
It has to be done carefully, pulling Cannons ahead of Beams triggers the exact problem you're describing. Bringing them up to equal has no negative effect at all.
Let's not go off the deep end and call for BFAW to be reduced to uselessness. We need the other weapons/abilities to be MORE useful, NOT to make BFAW LESS. The goal should be to give the other players more and better options for those of us who don't BFAW, not to take away from those who enjoy it.
I agree %100. @bobs1111 has a great idea with some beam rapid fire power. Reroute Reserves to Weapons pilot power kind of does this but it's locked to pilot ships. I would love to see a normal tac power that did rapid fire with beams.
Why not call it Broadside? Line your ship up and unleash a flurry of rapid fire beams on the target much like C:RF.
This would give Beam Players a single target ability that isnt as limited as BO and give Cryptic the chance to correct BFAW and turn it into something it should be.
Let's not go off the deep end and call for BFAW to be reduced to uselessness. We need the other weapons/abilities to be MORE useful, NOT to make BFAW LESS. The goal should be to give the other players more and better options for those of us who don't BFAW, not to take away from those who enjoy it.
I agree %100. @bobs1111 has a great idea with some beam rapid fire power. Reroute Reserves to Weapons pilot power kind of does this but it's locked to pilot ships. I would love to see a normal tac power that did rapid fire with beams.
Why not call it Broadside? Line your ship up and unleash a flurry of rapid fire beams on the target much like C:RF.
This would give Beam Players a single target ability that isnt as limited as BO and give Cryptic the chance to correct BFAW and turn it into something it should be.
Completion times will remain exactly the same as they are now.
When a build is inferior, like in this case with Cannons, people just don't use it. Do an STF Mission and you'll see that everyone is running BFAW, even Escorts are running Beams.
Nah, you still see a fair amount of cannons. I see them in STF PUGs all the time, and can usually tell what ships will be running them before the first shot is fired.
Not everyone wants to just pew pew, and that's something that Cryptic knows and capitalizes on. There are folks who want to fly the Defiant they saw in DS9, firing phaser cannons and quantums. There are folks who want to fly the B'rel they think is pretty, and use the appropriate disruptor cannons and photons. There are a fair amount of these people, which is why canon (one "n") ships sell, and this is one of the main reason the license is profitable for Cryptic, because this is a "Star Trek Theme Park" and a lot of folks are willing to overlook bugs, and broken mechanics and mediocrity to play something Star Trekish. Thing is, these people effect the metrics too, and they're flying stuff like cannon-using T5-U Defiants instead of BFaWing T6 Pilot Escorts, with all the gimpiness that entails.
So when stuff like T6 Defiants start releasing, and cannons get a boost, those guys start doing better, and the metrics change accordingly. Missions are completed faster, more dilithium comes into the game faster, effecting the economy, impacting Zen sales... and I think we can all imagine that makes the Cryptic Overlords make frowny faces.
Evening out BFaW and cannon abilities like CSV and CRF may not effect the completion time of everyone following the meta, but not everyone does that, so it will effect the metrics all the same.
I have detailed the proper fix for this issue in the past... nothing is ever going to change. People that play this game are just not the type of game players that understand game balance. I doubt there are a lot of people here that play things like The Settlers of Catan or anything of that level of game design.
However being nice... here is the fix for the BFAW issue.
1) Delete FAW
2) Rename Cannon Rapid fire to "Rapid Fire" keep its current function however remove the requirement of cannons. Allow the skill to work with ALL energy weapons.
3) Rename Cannon Scatter Volley to "Fire at Will" Keep its current function (targeting 180 degree arc off of the current target ect) Allow this skill to work with any energy weapon.
4) Optionally alter Beam Overload to "Weapon Overload" and Target Subsystems to work with any weapon. Yes DHC could overload at that point... and still be subject to all the same limits of cannons as far as range penalties. Perhaps to make it interesting have cannon subsystems not drain power at all but have a higher chance to disable a system, and at the same time increase the amount of power drain done by disables with beam weapons.
The game still has a TON of science aoe skills... scatter volley AKA New New New FAW would work as it should dealing with thinigs like groups of spheres... and New Rapid Fire would be the skill of choice vs large single target npcs.
BFAW doesn't need adjusting, it's every other skill that needs readjusting, for better performance!
This!
Other weapon types just need to be brought up to the same level. You can love or hate the way FAW works, but it's not OP, other powers just just under performing.
People already got their Embassy Console Nerf, stop trying to bury other builds under tons of Nerfs. Instead, focus on getting other skills/items up to par. BFAW is the bar, lets get other weapon types up to that bar..
Lowering the bar helps no one.
Well technically then we can't say which it is...if FaW is over-performing or or everything else is under-performing...only the devs can say :P
All I can do is call it like I see it...and I see FaW dominating everything else...but I guess I was a little hasty to jump...FaW isn't the only problem...but it's the biggest problem amongst many.
Beams are also extremely powerful in general...
You give the most powerful weapon the most powerful buffs and it's going to dominate. The Plasma Explosion didn't help matters.
More and more I think about it...the whole tactical and weapon systems need a overhaul.
Never did you hear on the Defiant that they were to far away for cannons to be effective (While in firing range) nor did you ever hear orders to hold back torpedo fire till the foes shields were penetrated.
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
BFAW doesn't need adjusting, it's every other skill that needs readjusting, for better performance!
This!
Other weapon types just need to be brought up to the same level. You can love or hate the way FAW works, but it's not OP, other powers just just under performing.
People already got their Embassy Console Nerf, stop trying to bury other builds under tons of Nerfs. Instead, focus on getting other skills/items up to par. BFAW is the bar, lets get other weapon types up to that bar..
Lowering the bar helps no one.
Well technically then we can't say which it is...if FaW is over-performing or or everything else is under-performing...only the devs can say :P
All I can do is call it like I see it...and I see FaW dominating everything else...but I guess I was a little hasty to jump...FaW isn't the only problem...but it's the biggest problem amongst many.
Beams are also extremely powerful in general...
You give the most powerful weapon the most powerful buffs and it's going to dominate. The Plasma Explosion didn't help matters.
As long as Enemies have Millions of HP and hundreds of thousands of shields.. FAW is in no way over performing. It just took a hit because of the "fix" to embassy consoles, the only people that cry that FAW is OP are the people who don't use it. They do this because they're sick of seeing it everywhere.. and it's only like that because other abilities suck.
People can say whatever they want, but the real problem here is the neglect that other weapon types have seen. Beams are the only Weapon they have done right. Making them suck too is a silly way to address the problem, but I admit.. that style has 'Cryptic' written all over it.
I have detailed the proper fix for this issue in the past... nothing is ever going to change. People that play this game are just not the type of game players that understand game balance. I doubt there are a lot of people here that play things like The Settlers of Catan or anything of that level of game design.
However being nice... here is the fix for the BFAW issue.
1) Delete FAW
2) Rename Cannon Rapid fire to "Rapid Fire" keep its current function however remove the requirement of cannons. Allow the skill to work with ALL energy weapons.
3) Rename Cannon Scatter Volley to "Fire at Will" Keep its current function (targeting 180 degree arc off of the current target ect) Allow this skill to work with any energy weapon.
4) Optionally alter Beam Overload to "Weapon Overload" and Target Subsystems to work with any weapon. Yes DHC could overload at that point... and still be subject to all the same limits of cannons as far as range penalties. Perhaps to make it interesting have cannon subsystems not drain power at all but have a higher chance to disable a system, and at the same time increase the amount of power drain done by disables with beam weapons.
The game still has a TON of science aoe skills... scatter volley AKA New New New FAW would work as it should dealing with thinigs like groups of spheres... and New Rapid Fire would be the skill of choice vs large single target npcs.
Funny thing, Ive always seen BO as an ability that would work much better as an average damage ability that would function as a stun on mobs. With all that energy being fed into that beam array/beam bank youd think the target would have its power grid blowing fuses left and right and causing the ships power to fluctuate, stunning it as a result. Of course they could add an immunity to BO to combat chain stuns after the target is hit once. Its not as if there isnt precedence in the shows and movies for this. Plenty of times we saw ships become disabled from being hit with a high energy weapon. And if it was the Hero Ship they would find a way to prevent the high energy weapon from disabling them a second time. Target Subsystems would still function as a precision ability hitting the power levels that the user wanted to affect.
BFAW doesn't need adjusting, it's every other skill that needs readjusting, for better performance!
This!
Other weapon types just need to be brought up to the same level. You can love or hate the way FAW works, but it's not OP, other powers just just under performing.
People already got their Embassy Console Nerf, stop trying to bury other builds under tons of Nerfs. Instead, focus on getting other skills/items up to par. BFAW is the bar, lets get other weapon types up to that bar..
Lowering the bar helps no one.
Well technically then we can't say which it is...if FaW is over-performing or or everything else is under-performing...only the devs can say :P
All I can do is call it like I see it...and I see FaW dominating everything else...but I guess I was a little hasty to jump...FaW isn't the only problem...but it's the biggest problem amongst many.
Beams are also extremely powerful in general...
You give the most powerful weapon the most powerful buffs and it's going to dominate. The Plasma Explosion didn't help matters.
As long as Enemies have Millions of HP and hundreds of thousands of shields.. FAW is in no way over performing. It just took a hit because of the "fix" to embassy consoles, the only people that cry that FAW is OP are the people who don't use it. They do this because they're sick of seeing it everywhere.. and it's only like that because other abilities suck.
People can say whatever they want, but the real problem here is the neglect that other weapon types have seen. Beams are the only Weapon they have done right. Making them suck too is a silly way to address the problem, but I admit.. that style has 'Cryptic' written all over it.
Well I personally not a huge fan of FaW...because it's the most powerful not because everyone does it...some ships I use beams and some cannons...and the ships with cannons just plain and simple don't perform like ships with beams.
FaW is a lot better than CRF and Beams are a lot better than Cannons for multiple reasons
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
BFAW doesn't need adjusting, it's every other skill that needs readjusting, for better performance!
This!
Other weapon types just need to be brought up to the same level. You can love or hate the way FAW works, but it's not OP, other powers just just under performing.
People already got their Embassy Console Nerf, stop trying to bury other builds under tons of Nerfs. Instead, focus on getting other skills/items up to par. BFAW is the bar, lets get other weapon types up to that bar..
Lowering the bar helps no one.
Well technically then we can't say which it is...if FaW is over-performing or or everything else is under-performing...only the devs can say :P
All I can do is call it like I see it...and I see FaW dominating everything else...but I guess I was a little hasty to jump...FaW isn't the only problem...but it's the biggest problem amongst many.
Beams are also extremely powerful in general...
You give the most powerful weapon the most powerful buffs and it's going to dominate. The Plasma Explosion didn't help matters.
As long as Enemies have Millions of HP and hundreds of thousands of shields.. FAW is in no way over performing. It just took a hit because of the "fix" to embassy consoles, the only people that cry that FAW is OP are the people who don't use it. They do this because they're sick of seeing it everywhere.. and it's only like that because other abilities suck.
People can say whatever they want, but the real problem here is the neglect that other weapon types have seen. Beams are the only Weapon they have done right. Making them suck too is a silly way to address the problem, but I admit.. that style has 'Cryptic' written all over it.
Youre right. BFAW is just much more effective at racking up DPS because of their ability to reach out and touch more targets and sustain that DPS as it hits them. The problem there is it makes everything else around it look subpar and obsolete as a build option. Sure C:RF still out performs Beams pound for pound DPS on a single target. But why limit yourself to a single target when you can still do some of the best DPS in the game with BFAW by working on cutting down multiple targets rather then one at a time?
I wouldnt call BFAW OP. But it definitely doesnt act in the same manner that other AoE abilities behave. And I dont see Cryptic being able to make any changes to C:RF, C:SV and BO that would make them more attractive. You may be able to burn down a single target a little more faster then currently with a C:RF buff. May be able to cause trash mobs to pop just that much more faster with a C:SV buff and slightly cut down on the time to kill a mob with a BO buff. But ultimately BFAW will still be the go to because it does everything all of those other abilities do without taking up as much space on the ability tray with CritDx3 mods on the beams.
BFAW originally was meant as a Tanks aggro ability to pull mobs onto them to let the cannon using escorts a chance to cut into trash mobs and single targets. Now its the go to DPS. And even if its not OP, the changes made to it has effectively knocked the games balance out of whack. And content is built around the idea that the average player is going to be BFAWing their way through it.
Even if what you say about beam FAW is true, it does not supply a reason to nerf it.
If you don't want to use it, you don't have to, you can use the other skills instead.
Beam FAW doing more damage won't have any effect on you at all.
You're a smart person, so I'm going to assume you just didn't read the OP. BFAW does great AoE damage (which it should) but also great single target damage. That's just poor game mechanics. What the game needs is a single target beam power that gives sustained DPS.
Even if what you say about beam FAW is true, it does not supply a reason to nerf it.
If you don't want to use it, you don't have to, you can use the other skills instead.
Beam FAW doing more damage won't have any effect on you at all.
It doesn't? It makes people look down on me for using cannons...it means I need to budget more EPS because cannons drain more power than beams and they're weaker...it means I have to be weaker because I don't want to play the same play style most people play.
It means overall I need to play better and put more into my build than FaW just to be less effective...that sure as well affects me.
Nerf FaW or buff CSV...right now beams or bust is so very frustrating for someone who enjoys playing multiple ways...
I really think space combat could use a overhaul...
Can't have a honest conversation because of a white knight with power
My problem with BFaW is that Beam Overload was nerfed hard as part of the Dev's attempt to "level the playing field" in PvP (as you may remember, a decloak-Beam Overload was absolutely lethal on a BoP).
Even though it auto-crits now, it's damage is mediocre and it is not in parity with BFaW.
What may help bring BO more in line with BFaW is to bring back the BO Double Tap and it's old damage table.
It needs to be lethal again.
NO to ARC RIP KDF and PvP 2014-07-17 Season 9.5 - Death by Dev
Youre right. BFAW is just much more effective at racking up DPS because of their ability to reach out and touch more targets and sustain that DPS as it hits them. The problem there is it makes everything else around it look subpar and obsolete as a build option. Sure C:RF still out performs Beams pound for pound DPS on a single target. But why limit yourself to a single target when you can still do some of the best DPS in the game with BFAW by working on cutting down multiple targets rather then one at a time?
I am actually in disagreement with seaofsorrows. It is actually better for more HP specifically more Shield effective HP in missions for other platforms like torp due to Torps shield penetration potential over beams. Although in ISA shield penetration is useless/less effective, that becomes a different story when the NPC has a lot more effective shield hp.
BFAW is only maximize multiple targets which means less NPC deals less damage, missions crafted for normal skilled players like ISA. If you increase the damage of the NPC in advance/normal like the current certain harder elites, BFAWs effectiveness drops significantly due to necessity to avoid multiple mobs, assuming you are not the tank. However I doubt that will happen since normal/advance are nor meant for elite players.
As long as you can't throw a rock in this game without hitting a Galaxy and limited tac slotting so that we can only chain one beam power at a time, we're going to have FAW as it is now. Its just the way it is.
One simple thought: Why does BFAW come with a base increase in damage? That doesn't make snese, it's a point defense/aggro generator ability. Make it hit multipletargets but remove the + in damage, bcause there's no reason it should have thaat over targeted precision attacks.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
1. Beam has 250" firing arc
*Cannon 45" firing arc
2. Beams can be equipped fore and aft
*Cannons only fore.
3.BFAW has a 360' Coverage due to single beam arrays having a 250" firing arc so there are technecally no blind spots if broadsiding a target.
*Cannons only have a 45" arc so leave a blind spot of 315" if broadsiding a target or outside that 45"
4. Beams appear to have less weapons drain over cannons
5. Beams have a slightly better firing cycle also enhanced by the Arbiter Starship mastery trait when activating Emergency power to weapons.
6. Beams also have Onmi-Directional versions so a Escort flying with beams potentially if using Anti-protons can have 6 beams, 7 with the borg kinetic cutting beam firing forward. Beams out perform turrets.
7. Beams suffer less damage drop off when outside a 5km range of a target
8. Broadsiding due to being able to bring every beam to bare on target when broadsiding even without BFAW this is better than 3/4 DHC letting loose with CRF/CSV supported by 3 aft turrets
How can CSV or CRF compete with a weapon that has a 315" better firing arc. A weapon that with that arc has 7/8 beams all brought to bare on a single target.
Even if you quadruppled Cannons damage and doubled the up time of CSV and CRF they would still be 2nd best to beams because of that firing arc difference.
A escort cannot keep its nose on a target all the time it has to turn away or the target moves outside of the firing arc.
A ship flying cannons is like a fight jet, its totally useless without its nose is pointed at its target as all its firepower is concentrated foreword.
A ship flying beams is akin to a battleship where it can broadside the target and bring all its weapons to bare it has no holes in offensive power.
Maybe the only thing to look at regarding beams and BFAW is the firing arc and that total coverage it has.
Now beams are superior to cannons in every way, but that doesn't mean BFAW is over performing this tells me that cannons are under performing and have serious flaws that need addressing.
Nerfing beams and not touching cannons is not going to help players using cannons. Lets stop looking at how good beams are and try to look for solutions to make cannons a alternative competitive build to beams
BFAW doesn't need adjusting, it's every other skill that needs readjusting, for better performance!
This!
Other weapon types just need to be brought up to the same level. You can love or hate the way FAW works, but it's not OP, other powers just just under performing.
People already got their Embassy Console Nerf, stop trying to bury other builds under tons of Nerfs. Instead, focus on getting other skills/items up to par. BFAW is the bar, lets get other weapon types up to that bar..
Lowering the bar helps no one.
This. But Nerf it nerf it good, nerf it nerf it real good!
Lets be that, we're effed.
And Nerf it Nerf it good, Nerfit nerfit real good. <- we seem to want it, we'll get it.
because we get all consant buffs by higher mk gear and actually we breached 100k DPS? that was with the how you say pure nerfs never earlier achieved? damn if they ony nerf then how come the dps rises permanently? wow such ignorance
I agree. There is no way to compete in the leagues without using BFAW. Cannons need a huge boost. They could always boost cannons against NPCs and keep them the same for pvp....
I dont think faw personally needs a nerf, but beams alone, as abilit is ok, the range dmg dropoff is just to low considering cannons and scatter voley. you already have higher arc's so how is it that its dmg is also higher.
Its not ability's fault but beam design.
1. Beam has 250" firing arc
*Cannon 45" firing arc
2. Beams can be equipped fore and aft
*Cannons only fore.
3.BFAW has a 360' Coverage due to single beam arrays having a 250" firing arc so there are technecally no blind spots if broadsiding a target.
*Cannons only have a 45" arc so leave a blind spot of 315" if broadsiding a target or outside that 45"
4. Beams appear to have less weapons drain over cannons
5. Beams have a slightly better firing cycle also enhanced by the Arbiter Starship mastery trait when activating Emergency power to weapons.
6. Beams also have Onmi-Directional versions so a Escort flying with beams potentially if using Anti-protons can have 6 beams, 7 with the borg kinetic cutting beam firing forward. Beams out perform turrets.
7. Beams suffer less damage drop off when outside a 5km range of a target
8. Broadsiding due to being able to bring every beam to bare on target when broadsiding even without BFAW this is better than 3/4 DHC letting loose with CRF/CSV supported by 3 aft turrets
How can CSV or CRF compete with a weapon that has a 315" better firing arc. A weapon that with that arc has 7/8 beams all brought to bare on a single target.
Even if you quadruppled Cannons damage and doubled the up time of CSV and CRF they would still be 2nd best to beams because of that firing arc difference.
A escort cannot keep its nose on a target all the time it has to turn away or the target moves outside of the firing arc.
A ship flying cannons is like a fight jet, its totally useless without its nose is pointed at its target as all its firepower is concentrated foreword.
A ship flying beams is akin to a battleship where it can broadside the target and bring all its weapons to bare it has no holes in offensive power.
Maybe the only thing to look at regarding beams and BFAW is the firing arc and that total coverage it has.
Now beams are superior to cannons in every way, but that doesn't mean BFAW is over performing this tells me that cannons are under performing and have serious flaws that need addressing.
Nerfing beams and not touching cannons is not going to help players using cannons. Lets stop looking at how good beams are and try to look for solutions to make cannons a alternative competitive build to beams
I would rather see BFAW brought into line with other AoEs and C:RF either opened up to Beams or give Beams their own version to give Beam Cruisers/Escorts something to use aside from BFAW as the default choice.
You claim that quadruppling cannon damage and doubling up the time of CSV, CRF wouldnt be enough yet you claim that Cannons and CSV, CRF needs a buff, not a nerf to BFAW....Can you see the hypocrisy there or did you change your mind mid way through typing that out?
Some of the Cannons and the abilities associated with them, as well as other Tactical Abilities are borked. Its not that they need a buff but that they need a fix.
I get that people are scared that Cryptic is going to hit BFAW too heavily with the nerfbat. But increasing Cannons and their associated abilities will not change the meta that revolves around BFAW. BFAW will continue to dominate the picture as it does the job of CSV, CRF and BO all together.
BFAW was originally meant to aggro mobs/pop trash mobs for tanks. But because BO was so limited in what it could do as a single target Beam Ability it was just never a legitimate option. And with the DPS race in full swing enough people complained and instead of coming up with a legitimate Rapid Fire counterpart for Beams Cryptic took the lazy way out and buffed BFAW til it was a All Purpose Weapon Ability that put everything else out to pasture.
BFAW could still be very useful with an appropriate nerf returning it to an aggro/popping trash mobs. Fixing C:SV and then creating a Broadside Rapid Fire ability for Beams/opening up CRF to Beams would go a long way in establishing both Beam and Cannons as viable options. Players in Cruisers would still have the ability to Tank/DPS and Escorts would make a return as a viable Cannon DPS for a team.
The only thing I would like to see buffed would be Cannons ability to reach out and hit things a little harder outside the 5k Bubble.
Cannon drop off needs to go or at least be greatly reduced, and BFAW should have a drawback. Currently what's it's drawback? No single target focus when in a pack of enemies? Maybe too much aggro?
I think BFAW should have an accuracy penalty personally. It wouldn't matter much vs cruisers or other large ships but vs escorts and other small, fast ships it might not be the ideal tactical choice. That's something we saw all the time on the screen, especially in DS9. Beams had a hard time hitting the Defiant.
I also always thought of BFAW giving control of beam targeting to your officers instead of the computer, and with that would come the humanoid ability to fire faster but miss more often vs small ships. I might be wrong in how it theoretically works but a humanoid should have a harder time hitting nimble escorts than the computer.
The biggest problem though is cannon drop off, and at this point I might even say cannon damage.
The right tool for the right job. When the game is basically a case of show up and shoot waves after waves of smaller enemies that rely mostly on superior numbers to contest you then FAW is that right tool.
If the game had more 1 on 1 encounters or huge single enemies that require some sort of accurate shooting/disabling, then FAW would naturally fall out of favour or be relegated to counter pet/mine/spam duty.
You claim that quadruppling cannon damage and doubling up the time of CSV, CRF wouldnt be enough yet you claim that Cannons and CSV, CRF needs a buff, not a nerf to BFAW....Can you see the hypocrisy there or did you change your mind mid way through typing that out?
Nope i was trying to highlight my point about a 45" arc weapon against moving targets will never complete with a 360" arc weapon even if cannons damage were buffed.
But Cannons do need a buff i'm just not sure how as you can't really compare the Cannon AOE to Beams because of the difference in the firing arc. Beams and Cannons are like a cross (x) and a slot (-) screwdriver both are the same tool to do a job but use different type of heads or in game terms different styles of play to get the job done
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This!
Other weapon types just need to be brought up to the same level. You can love or hate the way FAW works, but it's not OP, other powers just just under performing.
People already got their Embassy Console Nerf, stop trying to bury other builds under tons of Nerfs. Instead, focus on getting other skills/items up to par. BFAW is the bar, lets get other weapon types up to that bar..
Lowering the bar helps no one.
Actually, raising the bar doesn't help anyone. That's not how this sort of thing works, nor has ever worked. That's the problem, a lot of players don't understand that there's a zero sum equation going on behind the scenes. If they just buff CSV to meet BFaW... then what? More people start doing more damage and average completion times go down. Good, right? Except... no, because well, the developers don't want that. They want you to get X reward for Y time invested (even if their implementation is sloppy). If the average starts to go down, and people are mostly completing stuff faster they start nerfing rewards or they start increasing enemy hit points so that everyone goes back to taking Y amount of time to smash through those bags of hit points we call enemies in order to get that X reward.
We've seen this time and time again. There's a zero sum game going on and if you haven't noticed it's because you haven't been reading the patch notes. NPC hit points rise in relation to the average damage players do, and optional timers get shorter.
There's that old saying: There are no free lunches.
So no, lowering the bar doesn't help anyone, but neither does raising it because no matter where the bar is Cryptic will make sure the average players' completion times remain relatively unchanged. As such nerfs aren't bad unless they're handled badly, and they're no more apt to be badly handled than buffs are, and if CSV is boosted to the point that BFaW becomes pointless (effectively an indirect nerf) are you going to be any happier than if BFaW is directly nerfed? Probably not.
So then the question is... what takes more developer time? Dealing with the one problem, which everyone knows is out performing the competition, and how it's out performing the competition, or taking all of BO, CSV and CRF and buffing them all and trying to find a way to make them all seem viable and fill their own niche?
This. But Nerf it nerf it good, nerf it nerf it real good!
Lets be that, we're effed.
And Nerf it Nerf it good, Nerfit nerfit real good. <- we seem to want it, we'll get it.
"Use Temporal Skills to NERF EVERYTHING before it happened!" -Unknown source.
I concur why does BFAW have to be nerfed, why not buff everything else. so everyone can have their cake and eat it. Not everything needs to be hit with a nerf bat, sometimes its nice to go in the opposite direction.
Completion times will remain exactly the same as they are now.
When a build is inferior, like in this case with Cannons, people just don't use it. Do an STF Mission and you'll see that everyone is running BFAW, even Escorts are running Beams. Bringing Cannons up won't improve completion times, you're bringing things up to the current 'meta.' The only difference you'll see is more varied combinations of builds.
It has to be done carefully, pulling Cannons ahead of Beams triggers the exact problem you're describing. Bringing them up to equal has no negative effect at all.
Why not call it Broadside? Line your ship up and unleash a flurry of rapid fire beams on the target much like C:RF.
This would give Beam Players a single target ability that isnt as limited as BO and give Cryptic the chance to correct BFAW and turn it into something it should be.
I could go for that!
Nah, you still see a fair amount of cannons. I see them in STF PUGs all the time, and can usually tell what ships will be running them before the first shot is fired.
Not everyone wants to just pew pew, and that's something that Cryptic knows and capitalizes on. There are folks who want to fly the Defiant they saw in DS9, firing phaser cannons and quantums. There are folks who want to fly the B'rel they think is pretty, and use the appropriate disruptor cannons and photons. There are a fair amount of these people, which is why canon (one "n") ships sell, and this is one of the main reason the license is profitable for Cryptic, because this is a "Star Trek Theme Park" and a lot of folks are willing to overlook bugs, and broken mechanics and mediocrity to play something Star Trekish. Thing is, these people effect the metrics too, and they're flying stuff like cannon-using T5-U Defiants instead of BFaWing T6 Pilot Escorts, with all the gimpiness that entails.
So when stuff like T6 Defiants start releasing, and cannons get a boost, those guys start doing better, and the metrics change accordingly. Missions are completed faster, more dilithium comes into the game faster, effecting the economy, impacting Zen sales... and I think we can all imagine that makes the Cryptic Overlords make frowny faces.
Evening out BFaW and cannon abilities like CSV and CRF may not effect the completion time of everyone following the meta, but not everyone does that, so it will effect the metrics all the same.
However being nice... here is the fix for the BFAW issue.
1) Delete FAW
2) Rename Cannon Rapid fire to "Rapid Fire" keep its current function however remove the requirement of cannons. Allow the skill to work with ALL energy weapons.
3) Rename Cannon Scatter Volley to "Fire at Will" Keep its current function (targeting 180 degree arc off of the current target ect) Allow this skill to work with any energy weapon.
4) Optionally alter Beam Overload to "Weapon Overload" and Target Subsystems to work with any weapon. Yes DHC could overload at that point... and still be subject to all the same limits of cannons as far as range penalties. Perhaps to make it interesting have cannon subsystems not drain power at all but have a higher chance to disable a system, and at the same time increase the amount of power drain done by disables with beam weapons.
The game still has a TON of science aoe skills... scatter volley AKA New New New FAW would work as it should dealing with thinigs like groups of spheres... and New Rapid Fire would be the skill of choice vs large single target npcs.
Well technically then we can't say which it is...if FaW is over-performing or or everything else is under-performing...only the devs can say :P
All I can do is call it like I see it...and I see FaW dominating everything else...but I guess I was a little hasty to jump...FaW isn't the only problem...but it's the biggest problem amongst many.
Beams are also extremely powerful in general...
You give the most powerful weapon the most powerful buffs and it's going to dominate. The Plasma Explosion didn't help matters.
More and more I think about it...the whole tactical and weapon systems need a overhaul.
Never did you hear on the Defiant that they were to far away for cannons to be effective (While in firing range) nor did you ever hear orders to hold back torpedo fire till the foes shields were penetrated.
As long as Enemies have Millions of HP and hundreds of thousands of shields.. FAW is in no way over performing. It just took a hit because of the "fix" to embassy consoles, the only people that cry that FAW is OP are the people who don't use it. They do this because they're sick of seeing it everywhere.. and it's only like that because other abilities suck.
People can say whatever they want, but the real problem here is the neglect that other weapon types have seen. Beams are the only Weapon they have done right. Making them suck too is a silly way to address the problem, but I admit.. that style has 'Cryptic' written all over it.
Funny thing, Ive always seen BO as an ability that would work much better as an average damage ability that would function as a stun on mobs. With all that energy being fed into that beam array/beam bank youd think the target would have its power grid blowing fuses left and right and causing the ships power to fluctuate, stunning it as a result. Of course they could add an immunity to BO to combat chain stuns after the target is hit once. Its not as if there isnt precedence in the shows and movies for this. Plenty of times we saw ships become disabled from being hit with a high energy weapon. And if it was the Hero Ship they would find a way to prevent the high energy weapon from disabling them a second time. Target Subsystems would still function as a precision ability hitting the power levels that the user wanted to affect.
Well I personally not a huge fan of FaW...because it's the most powerful not because everyone does it...some ships I use beams and some cannons...and the ships with cannons just plain and simple don't perform like ships with beams.
FaW is a lot better than CRF and Beams are a lot better than Cannons for multiple reasons
Youre right. BFAW is just much more effective at racking up DPS because of their ability to reach out and touch more targets and sustain that DPS as it hits them. The problem there is it makes everything else around it look subpar and obsolete as a build option. Sure C:RF still out performs Beams pound for pound DPS on a single target. But why limit yourself to a single target when you can still do some of the best DPS in the game with BFAW by working on cutting down multiple targets rather then one at a time?
I wouldnt call BFAW OP. But it definitely doesnt act in the same manner that other AoE abilities behave. And I dont see Cryptic being able to make any changes to C:RF, C:SV and BO that would make them more attractive. You may be able to burn down a single target a little more faster then currently with a C:RF buff. May be able to cause trash mobs to pop just that much more faster with a C:SV buff and slightly cut down on the time to kill a mob with a BO buff. But ultimately BFAW will still be the go to because it does everything all of those other abilities do without taking up as much space on the ability tray with CritDx3 mods on the beams.
BFAW originally was meant as a Tanks aggro ability to pull mobs onto them to let the cannon using escorts a chance to cut into trash mobs and single targets. Now its the go to DPS. And even if its not OP, the changes made to it has effectively knocked the games balance out of whack. And content is built around the idea that the average player is going to be BFAWing their way through it.
You're a smart person, so I'm going to assume you just didn't read the OP. BFAW does great AoE damage (which it should) but also great single target damage. That's just poor game mechanics. What the game needs is a single target beam power that gives sustained DPS.
It doesn't? It makes people look down on me for using cannons...it means I need to budget more EPS because cannons drain more power than beams and they're weaker...it means I have to be weaker because I don't want to play the same play style most people play.
It means overall I need to play better and put more into my build than FaW just to be less effective...that sure as well affects me.
Nerf FaW or buff CSV...right now beams or bust is so very frustrating for someone who enjoys playing multiple ways...
I really think space combat could use a overhaul...
It needs nerfing. Nothing drastic.
Many skills, and indeed the entire combat system, need an overhaul if I'm going to be honest, not just BFAW.
Even though it auto-crits now, it's damage is mediocre and it is not in parity with BFaW.
What may help bring BO more in line with BFaW is to bring back the BO Double Tap and it's old damage table.
It needs to be lethal again.
RIP KDF and PvP 2014-07-17 Season 9.5 - Death by Dev
I am actually in disagreement with seaofsorrows. It is actually better for more HP specifically more Shield effective HP in missions for other platforms like torp due to Torps shield penetration potential over beams. Although in ISA shield penetration is useless/less effective, that becomes a different story when the NPC has a lot more effective shield hp.
BFAW is only maximize multiple targets which means less NPC deals less damage, missions crafted for normal skilled players like ISA. If you increase the damage of the NPC in advance/normal like the current certain harder elites, BFAWs effectiveness drops significantly due to necessity to avoid multiple mobs, assuming you are not the tank. However I doubt that will happen since normal/advance are nor meant for elite players.
Fix cannons and cannon powers first.
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1. Beam has 250" firing arc
*Cannon 45" firing arc
2. Beams can be equipped fore and aft
*Cannons only fore.
3.BFAW has a 360' Coverage due to single beam arrays having a 250" firing arc so there are technecally no blind spots if broadsiding a target.
*Cannons only have a 45" arc so leave a blind spot of 315" if broadsiding a target or outside that 45"
4. Beams appear to have less weapons drain over cannons
5. Beams have a slightly better firing cycle also enhanced by the Arbiter Starship mastery trait when activating Emergency power to weapons.
6. Beams also have Onmi-Directional versions so a Escort flying with beams potentially if using Anti-protons can have 6 beams, 7 with the borg kinetic cutting beam firing forward. Beams out perform turrets.
7. Beams suffer less damage drop off when outside a 5km range of a target
8. Broadsiding due to being able to bring every beam to bare on target when broadsiding even without BFAW this is better than 3/4 DHC letting loose with CRF/CSV supported by 3 aft turrets
How can CSV or CRF compete with a weapon that has a 315" better firing arc. A weapon that with that arc has 7/8 beams all brought to bare on a single target.
Even if you quadruppled Cannons damage and doubled the up time of CSV and CRF they would still be 2nd best to beams because of that firing arc difference.
A escort cannot keep its nose on a target all the time it has to turn away or the target moves outside of the firing arc.
A ship flying cannons is like a fight jet, its totally useless without its nose is pointed at its target as all its firepower is concentrated foreword.
A ship flying beams is akin to a battleship where it can broadside the target and bring all its weapons to bare it has no holes in offensive power.
Maybe the only thing to look at regarding beams and BFAW is the firing arc and that total coverage it has.
Now beams are superior to cannons in every way, but that doesn't mean BFAW is over performing this tells me that cannons are under performing and have serious flaws that need addressing.
Nerfing beams and not touching cannons is not going to help players using cannons. Lets stop looking at how good beams are and try to look for solutions to make cannons a alternative competitive build to beams
because we get all consant buffs by higher mk gear and actually we breached 100k DPS? that was with the how you say pure nerfs never earlier achieved? damn if they ony nerf then how come the dps rises permanently? wow such ignorance
Its not ability's fault but beam design.
I would rather see BFAW brought into line with other AoEs and C:RF either opened up to Beams or give Beams their own version to give Beam Cruisers/Escorts something to use aside from BFAW as the default choice.
You claim that quadruppling cannon damage and doubling up the time of CSV, CRF wouldnt be enough yet you claim that Cannons and CSV, CRF needs a buff, not a nerf to BFAW....Can you see the hypocrisy there or did you change your mind mid way through typing that out?
Some of the Cannons and the abilities associated with them, as well as other Tactical Abilities are borked. Its not that they need a buff but that they need a fix.
I get that people are scared that Cryptic is going to hit BFAW too heavily with the nerfbat. But increasing Cannons and their associated abilities will not change the meta that revolves around BFAW. BFAW will continue to dominate the picture as it does the job of CSV, CRF and BO all together.
BFAW was originally meant to aggro mobs/pop trash mobs for tanks. But because BO was so limited in what it could do as a single target Beam Ability it was just never a legitimate option. And with the DPS race in full swing enough people complained and instead of coming up with a legitimate Rapid Fire counterpart for Beams Cryptic took the lazy way out and buffed BFAW til it was a All Purpose Weapon Ability that put everything else out to pasture.
BFAW could still be very useful with an appropriate nerf returning it to an aggro/popping trash mobs. Fixing C:SV and then creating a Broadside Rapid Fire ability for Beams/opening up CRF to Beams would go a long way in establishing both Beam and Cannons as viable options. Players in Cruisers would still have the ability to Tank/DPS and Escorts would make a return as a viable Cannon DPS for a team.
The only thing I would like to see buffed would be Cannons ability to reach out and hit things a little harder outside the 5k Bubble.
I think BFAW should have an accuracy penalty personally. It wouldn't matter much vs cruisers or other large ships but vs escorts and other small, fast ships it might not be the ideal tactical choice. That's something we saw all the time on the screen, especially in DS9. Beams had a hard time hitting the Defiant.
I also always thought of BFAW giving control of beam targeting to your officers instead of the computer, and with that would come the humanoid ability to fire faster but miss more often vs small ships. I might be wrong in how it theoretically works but a humanoid should have a harder time hitting nimble escorts than the computer.
The biggest problem though is cannon drop off, and at this point I might even say cannon damage.
If the game had more 1 on 1 encounters or huge single enemies that require some sort of accurate shooting/disabling, then FAW would naturally fall out of favour or be relegated to counter pet/mine/spam duty.
Nope i was trying to highlight my point about a 45" arc weapon against moving targets will never complete with a 360" arc weapon even if cannons damage were buffed.
But Cannons do need a buff i'm just not sure how as you can't really compare the Cannon AOE to Beams because of the difference in the firing arc. Beams and Cannons are like a cross (x) and a slot (-) screwdriver both are the same tool to do a job but use different type of heads or in game terms different styles of play to get the job done