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Coordinated Assault Trait is pretty much useless
thibash
Member Posts: 506 Arc User
As the title says. It doesn't work for either CSV or FAW, which is pretty much the ability to choose in PvE. It also requires your hangar pets to be within a certain range of your location. And they must have a weapon in arc that can make use of it...and actually fire it (my Delta's seem to wait firing their phasers when they use tachyon beam or torpedo's for example). And if they have their own ability active, it's not gonna be used (so peregrines with rapid fire...not too useful). And it doesn't proc on weapon mods, so you'll have to dedicate a boff slot. And even IF they get to use it, hangar pet energy weapon damage tends to be quite poor so it will not change much.
If it included CSV and/or FAW, or worked for torpedo's, that'd be a whole different thing. But as it stands right now, you might wanna hold of on the ship if the trait is your only reason of gettting it.
If it included CSV and/or FAW, or worked for torpedo's, that'd be a whole different thing. But as it stands right now, you might wanna hold of on the ship if the trait is your only reason of gettting it.
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'stock peregrines': doesn't work at all, probably because they have "Phaser pulse cannons" instead of normal single/dual cannons.
Yellowstones: works fine, they don't have a beam special attack so it's a good fit.
Adv. Deltas: (didn't have regular or elite): honestly I haven't seen them firing BO attacks when I use mine. More testing required. Edit: Ok, it does work with Deltas, they just wait until after they finish their Tachyon beam to use it. Which I'm fine with, means they will have potentially more hull damage if they overpower the target's shield with it.
Elite Scorps: Works, though when they get close to a target they tend to circle and never fire their dual cannons, some micro-management is required so they keep their dual cannons firing.
Elite Brek Frigates: I 'think' it works, they have rapid fire on them so I'm not 100% sure that when I activate it, they didn't activate theirs. Also, same issue as with scorps Re: micro-management.
Since it works only with 'single target' attacks perhaps it will encourage players to make builds that don't spam FAW all over the place. I actually pulled out my Aux cannons for my Vesta to try this out, and I like the results. I'm dishing out damage at comperable rates to FAW boats and I make single targets pop at an impressive rate!
Overall if the stock peregrines (or any fighter with 'pulse cannons') were made compatable with the trait, it would be fairly useful. It would be more useful if it included torpedo high yield attacks... but this is likely an 'energy weapon only' trait.
Basically, you've gotta not fly the Alita as a (fast) pilot escort but as a cruiser for the trait to work.
That would be nice, but the problem is that in most of the game, stuff goes down from AoE so quickly that using only single target damage is pretty much pointless. I'm currently using the trait on my Alita, and I've slotted a Beam Overload to make use of the ability whenever the situation warrants it...but I find that it rarely does. Also, my delta's barely get to fire their tachyon beam before the target blows up, so their overload won't fire.
Actually, as of late I've been flying my Vesta with 2 aux cannons and one omni phaser in back, with BO attacks and CRF I find that I'm taking down targets quite quickly, even out dpsing some FAW boats in ISA. I've been averaging 16-18k dps using my cannons, so the Alita Trait has 'encouraged' me to use non FAW attacks and I'm actually liking it.
I still believe that the trait would work better if it included high yield torpedo attacks, but that's just me.
As for it working with FAW, I'd have to disagree on that. Hangar pets are fragile enough as it is, having them draw aggro with faw is suicidal for fighters, and could actually lower your overall dps by losing fighters faster than you can launch them.
My $0.02
Edit: Just tried a hangar of Type 8 shuttles, works perfectly. And is somewhat amusing seeing those little shuttles buzzing around and firing off beam overload attacks. lol
Edit 2: Tried a couple of deployable turrets, and as I suspected, Coordinated Assualt is useless with them. They don't even get the buff (even stock peregrines got the buff, but 'pulse cannons' didn't work with it). Ah well...
Most importantly is this reply by borticus in that thread:
I'd be all for a single target build, if it actually took down things faster. But the way things are now, in pretty much any encounter save vs. a boss, AoE comes out on top as being much, much faster. If I could trigger a Rapid Fire for my pets and use CSV myself, there wouldn't be an issue.
And there are issues with the Alita itself. I fly it like a pilot ship (fast movement) and my fighters often get out of range of the trait, meaning that they either don't get buffed, or when they finally get into range, the target's already blown up.
When using delta's, they wait so long before firing their overloaded (first tachyon, then torpedo, then finally beams, why not all at once?) beam that the target is blown up before they fire it. On elite peregrines, their rapid fire usually cancels out the buffed one and when going around for the second pass, the target's already gone so they get pretty much no benefit.
You'd still have the option to use it with Beam Overload if you don't want them to. The main reason to include FAW and CSV so you won't be stuck using a single target build yourself just to accommodate your fighters.
It probably is, but you'd be using somewhat inferior fighters just to make a trait work.
I've also considered the FAW/CSV issue with the trait, and I may have come up with a solution:
Pets gain Rapid Fire whenever carrier activates a cannon ability (CSV, CRF, Surgical strikes? Kemocite?)
And gain Beam Overload when carrier uses a beam ability (FAW, BO, Surgical strikes? Kemocite?)
Only mentioned Surgical Strikes and Kemocite because they do buff beam/cannon attacks, but if it were me I would just stick with the basic attacks.
Admittedly when we compare Coordinated Assault with other traits, it is in line for performance with most of them 'as is' (assuming the incompatabilities with some fighters were worked out). If the buff distance were increased to 1.5x - 2x the current distance, I'd be quite happy with the performance of the trait. (Though, if Torpedo High Yield were added to the list of 'shareable' attacks, I'd be quite excited about using it!)
Also, @Thibash, I'd just like to point out that not every trait is meant to work with every kind of attack/tactic, there are some which are meant for beams, cannons, heals, defense, etc... It would seem that this trait is meant for single target attacks. I highly doubt it will be altered to allow fighters to use Scatter volley or Fire at Will. It doesn't hurt to ask, but you'll likely get a response similar to what I just said.
It was already clear that the trait would probably work better with other ships (especially full carriers). However, I didn't expect for the trait to be THAT useless on the Alita itself. The list of issues I mentioned in the first post is just too long to even attempt to make a niche (specific skill set + specific fighter set + speciic playstyle) build work.
There are also various other methods of getting your AoE attacks out without wasting your Coordinated Assault Trait, you could slot a couple of Beam special attack doffs, and run one FAW and one BO with little dps loss, you could drop one Tac team to make it happen...
If it makes you feel any better, you could use the 'intercept' hangar command and your fighters/shuttles will take care of those pesky enemy fighters, emp probes, gateways, etc...
I do agree, however, that the standard 'beamscort' build won't be of much use with the trait.
Perhaps this is a precursor to a revamp of CRF, CSV, BFAW, and BO?
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HAHAHAHA
Perhaps not.
Also, the Reinforcement Squadron pilot power works with the trait and the reinforcements get both cannons and beams the only thing is unlike your pets, they randomly choose a target.
For rapid fire, getting your fighters in range of your ship for the trait, and in range of the target so they can use it, within the 10 seconds that the buff lasts, is nigh impossible on a high speed ship because the fighters lag behind so much.
For beam overload, the range thing applies as well but they have a bigger window of oppertunity. Hower that still means they gotta get within range of a target before the escort wipes it out (which is likely for a cannon/omni BO build).
It all hangs on the hangar pet mechanics, true, but they essentially make the trait useless unless you fly a cruiser speed ship. Essentially, the hangar pets are just too slow.
Hmm...if that were the case, than this may be the first pilot thing I've heard so far that works for this trait instead of against it.
I've actually gotten in the habit of keeping my fighters in the hangar (Recall Mode) until I enter weapons range, then I switch to Attack or Intercept and fire off Beam Overload or Rapid Fire, this makes sure that the fighters get to use the buffs and more importantly will attack enemies near you instead of flying off to attack some random enemy 20km away. Recalling them after (or just before) the target goes boom will help to keep them alive and will allow you to properly reposition them for your next strike. It also helps to keep fighters with dual cannons from circling targets and never firing their main cannons.
It takes a bit of micro-management, yes, but to effectively use hangar pets (regardless of Coordinated Assault) a bit of micro-management is recommended anyway.
I actually sometimes have this issue with my Vesta and Gal-X, so it isn't specifically an issue with the Alita. It's likely aresult of insufficient top speed for hangar pets and inadequate pet AI.
Specifically with cannon pets, they tend to be always firing at something (in combat) so when you activate Rapid Fire and pass the buff to your fighters they have to wait until they complete their current firing sequence, reload, then fire the rapid fire attacks. This sometimes results in a fair amount of the 10 second buff just burning off waiting until the next available firing sequence.
Like I said, not specifically a bug as player ships have the same issue but it is easier managed with player ships by not using the ability until you complete your firing sequence. This simple tactic isn't viable with fighters as you often have 4,6,8, or even 12 of the little buggers flying around shooting at stuff. Having a true coordinated Assault is only really viable in a 'fighter drop' alpha strike scenario, and is of limited usefulness in prolonged engagements. (With cannon pets, that is)
If it's not too much trouble, could the buff be adjusted to either:
1. Interrupt (and possibly reset) the cannons of the affected pets?
2. Hold the 10 second timer until the pets finish their current firing sequence or start a new sequence?
I know this isn't really a game-breaking thing, but it does make Coordinated assault less effective with cannon pets vs. beam pets. (The 30 second timer is plenty enough time to wait until the next firing sequence.)
Oddly, this power makes the crappiest fighters - the Tholian Web Fighters - actually semi-useful now. Go figure. (Provided they survive all the aggro the generate by them triggering B:FaW)
We recently made a change internally that allows for "Pulse Cannons" to benefit from Rapid Fire, Scatter Volley and Surgical Strikes. So that should improve the usefulness of this Trait with many hangar pets.
Also fixed the fact that Slavers weren't receiving the buff at all.
And to answer a question that's been brought up here -- the range of the AOE Buff triggered by this Trait is 10km.
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
Oh, a couple of questions though, does 'internally' mean that it isn't live on Holodeck yet? And if it isn't, can we expect it to go live in the next patch?
Hey, could the AOE buff range be increased to 15km please? Those pesky fighters can be launched toward enemies at 15km and can wander out of 10km fairly easily making it rather difficult to round up your fighters just to give them the buff. lol
This will answer the question of weather Coordinated Assaut triggers the CD on innate powers that are the same.
https://youtube.com/channel/UCJZ5FBJ9bFaZ6yAFiNpZiRQ/featured?view_as=subscriber
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Please make it 15km, or unbug the fighters. As it stands now, they're almost always out of range on my ship.
Both Slavers and Interceptors are low maintaince compared to my Elite Scorpions (although this helps them too as they have plasma pulse cannons in addition to plasma dual cannons).
Agreed. But that doesn't fix the issues with trait compatibility or hangar pets in general.
I admit that pets could do with a with rebalancing and AI improvements.
The only thing that 'works' on this trait is that the buff shows up. It doesn't DO anything worth of note in practice though.
My Delta's fire BO while Tachyon beam is active
The pets being out of range? Recall them, and WAIT for them to enter the ship before firing full impulse, problem solved. (Ideally it would be great if hangar pets kept up with the carrier better, but recalling them works. And should Cryptic adjust hangar pet speed in the future I still think I'd recall them between engagements, just to keep them together.)
Rapid Fire being wasted? See above solution, 'fighter drop' target, THEN activate Cannon Rapid Fire, problem solved.
Tachyon beam holding BO attacks? Why complain about this? If your Deltas wait to fire off a nasty beam attack until they're finished draining the target's shields they will potentially deal more hull damage should their Overload attack overwhelm the target's remaining shields.
Forgive me if I came off as rude or inconsiderate, but the point is most of your complaints about Coordinated Assault can be minimized or removed completely with proper carrier pet management.
This doesn't work if you fly a high speed, pilot based escort. You don't want to drop your speed because you'll lose the damage bonus. It can take up to 20 seconds for your fighters to catch up even when docking, which is way too long in most advanced and elite STF missions. And in most PvE scenario's, you'll be rushing to get your hits in before the enemies blow up to get your XP. Bottom line: anywhere it matters, recalling and waiting for your pets to finally dock, is not an option.
Because on a good escort, your target will be blown up before the Delta's ever get to fire their beam overload. Tachyon beam can last up to 10 seconds or so, and all the while, your pets aren't firing. On an escort, that means the target is destroyed and they'll have nothing to fire at.
The bottom line is that the way I play my escort, hangar pets rarely get a chance to fire their overload/rapid fire properly. They are still based on full-carrier's speeds and tactics, but since the trait comes with an escort, I don't think it's too much to ask that it's made to function properly on an escort. I simply do not have time in combat to sit around and wait for my pets to finally get around to using their abilities.
Escort carriers have always been a 'double-edged sword' in this case, you either fly it like a pure escort and abandon your fighters or you lean toward carrier and lose some of the escort's manuverability advantages. Coordinated Assault only brings this issue into light and makes it more difficult to balance high speed/manuverability with hangar pets.
I'd suggest dropping Pedal to the Metal and use Reciprocity (perhaps with Battle Ready too) instead, it probably won't be as effective as Pedal to the Metal for dps, but you won't have to abandon your fighters to do it. Also, this way you could manage your fighters and potentially make up the lost dps and then some.
I suspect that this mutual exclusivity is done on purpose so players can choose either (but not both) paths for damage potential.
Also, if you want to run a pilot escort, why would you choose the Alita? Wouldn't one of the Pilot Escorts fit that role much better?
Example:
Tholian Figters: Fire B:FAW right out of the shoot. Wait till it's done
Jem Hadar Fighters: Fire C:RF right out of the shoot. Wait till it's done.
Etc etc. That said, since the Jem Fighters forgo a projectile weapon for a Beam/Cannon combo, I find them the easiest to manage as far as this trait is concerned. To that end, I loaded up my Arkif with a tail 360 Plasma beam array and B:O on my cannon build to give more opportunities to take advantage.