Tu Quoque is a fallacy. It's also irrelevant in this context. The comment to which you replied with this was directed at an assertion concerning the actions of a Captain of Starfleet being regarded as not hypocritical. But since you made the claim that the Republic is not devoid of hypocrisy, perhaps you can cite an example? I won't bother to ask for one related to the Klingons (for several reasons)
What I am pointing out is that accusing a faction of violating its own rules under extreme circumstances is highly dangerous lest the accuser be seen as a hypocrite themselves when they are forced to act the same way.
I wouldn't put down any of the factions, but I would call out elements within the faction if such was neccesary.
I hold the federation and the republic in the same high regard, and wouldn't place one over the other OOCly.
Now if you ask Ryna or Caernu'lin of course you get a different answer. Their first duty is to the Republic.
Ask Elizabeth Angel Klein, her first duty is to Starfleet and the Federation, and while she won't go out and say which she thinks is "better" she knows, and will tell you where her duty lies.
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FYI D'tan isn't where the hypocrisy would be, he's an honest man who hasn't done anything of the sort.
Let me ask you How long has the republic been around? Compare to how long the Federation has been around. or the Klingon Empire.
Give it time, no faction remains perfect forever.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
Tu Quoque is a fallacy. It's also irrelevant in this context. The comment to which you replied with this was directed at an assertion concerning the actions of a Captain of Starfleet being regarded as not hypocritical. But since you made the claim that the Republic is not devoid of hypocrisy, perhaps you can cite an example? I won't bother to ask for one related to the Klingons (for several reasons)
What I am pointing out is that accusing a faction of violating its own rules under extreme circumstances is highly dangerous lest the accuser be seen as a hypocrite themselves when they are forced to act the same way.
(snip)
Give it time, no faction remains perfect forever.
Again, Tu Quoque is a fallacy. That X may have violated, or may in the future violate, their own rules or principles is not relevant to the charge that Y has done so. It does not excuse Y from guilt. It is an attempt to change the subject. Further, the charge said nothing about extreme circumstances, and, indeed, the charge is usually expressed in terms which allege that the Federation does so willy-nilly, at the drop of a hat, whenever the Prime Directive becomes simply "inconvenient," and not merely in extreme circumstances. This may be hyperbole, but it is the usual implication, if not the outright and explicit charge.
What I am pointing out is that accusing a faction of violating its own rules under extreme circumstances is highly dangerous lest the accuser be seen as a hypocrite themselves when they are forced to act the same way.
I am making a general point here. I'm not making excuses for anyone I'm telling you its a bad idea to play the faction name calling game.
You personally like the romulan republic, so do I.
That does not make it a wise idea to put down the other factions as inferior, its basically asking for a rather pointless argument.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
What I am pointing out is that accusing a faction of violating its own rules under extreme circumstances is highly dangerous lest the accuser be seen as a hypocrite themselves when they are forced to act the same way.
This did not need repeating. I understand what you said. What I'm saying is that such a statement is irrelevant to the assertion that Starfleet has violated the Prime Directive, and that they have done so whether the circumstances were extreme or not. To paint this as "name calling" is to misunderstand the nature of logic. A thing is, or it is not. A thing has a quality, or it does not. I am not condemning Starfleet for violating the Prime Directive; it is often necessary to do so. I am accusing Starfleet of external inconsistency (in layperson's terms, "hypocrisy") by virtue of their continued lip-service to the Prime Directive even while they realize that it is not possible to abide by it and still remain true to their other principles. As such, I would argue that the Prime Directive should be repealed. It is a nice idealistic principle, but it is also unrealistic. It would be better if they simply framed a principle of refraining from imperialism in all its forms, including cultural imperialism (but this would likely lay bare what the actual condemnation should be, for the Federation is no less imperialistic than the Klingon Empire, although their methods are different).
Prime directive needs amending not repealing. it should not apply to as many things as its currently stated as applying to.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
Prime directive needs amending not repealing. it should not apply to as many things as its currently stated as applying to.
Let's be clear on what we're discussing. Starfleet General Order number 1 is "The Prime Directive." Its exact words (this is canon, from Star Trek: The Animated Series) are:
"No starship may interfere with the normal development of any alien life or society."
A legalistic literalist would note that no exceptions are given, and another might note that a starship is not a person (which could be taken as allowing a loophole for individuals within Starfleet), although Starfleet and the Federation generally are mercifully free of such a mentality (legalism and literalism) in general.
The spirit of Starfleet General Order 1 is anti-imperialism, which is why I say it should be repealed and replaced with an opposition to engaging in imperialism. What amendment would you make?
Ok, you have a point. the general spirit of the Prime Directive isn't wrong, but the way it was set up just is a recipe for trouble sometimes.
That doesn't change my stance on the federation one bit though, I think a flawed but well meaning faction is an interesting faction.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
Ok, you have a point. the general spirit of the Prime Directive isn't wrong, but the way it was set up just is a recipe for trouble sometimes.
That doesn't change my stance on the federation one bit though, I think a flawed but well meaning faction is an interesting faction.
That isnt the point. The point was that the proper way to respond to "the Federation is hypocritical" is to either provide evidence to the contrary or agree (if you do), not accuse another state of hypocrisy. We understand that you like them. Your liking them has no bearing on their status as hypocrites.
This whole argument is really juvenile and I wish we would all just drop it right now ok?
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
This whole argument is really juvenile and I wish we would all just drop it right now ok?
On the contrary. Juvenile suggests someone is being immature and childish. We are simply having a calm discussion on the Federations status of hypocrisy.
This whole argument is really juvenile and I wish we would all just drop it right now ok?
On the contrary. Juvenile suggests someone is being immature and childish. We are simply having a calm discussion on the Federations status of hypocrisy.
What we can do is take this elsewhere, to our own venues, since it has become largely a discussion between our own personnel, and may be tending to derail the topic. We have our own fora, our own dedicated TeamSpeak server, and our own in-game chat channels. Let's move this to one of those, and stop clogging up this thread with our own only-marginally-related-to-the-topic discussion.
Edit: I have started a thread in our own forum site for the discussion to continue.
I'm just going to point out to everyone praising D'Tan that Republic forces were all too ready to try and claim both Dyson Spheres as their own (because somehow one isn't enough) and trigger a silly turf war due to their naked greed.
D'Tan runs a regime as deceptive and selfish as the Star Empire ever was, he simply feigns humility in order to avoid being crushed like a bug, and if I could only side with Sela and do just that the game would be far better off.
I'm just going to point out to everyone praising D'Tan that Republic forces were all too ready to try and claim both Dyson Spheres as their own (because somehow one isn't enough) and trigger a silly turf war due to their naked greed.
D'Tan runs a regime as deceptive and selfish as the Star Empire ever was, he simply feigns humility in order to avoid being crushed like a bug, and if I could only side with Sela and do just that the game would be far better off.
And who is supervising both Spheres? Oh, that's right, the RRF. Seems like the powers that be, the governments in charge of the soldiers, decided it was a good idea for the Republic to be in charge of the Spheres.
I will gladly, happily, and eagerly take Sela's life (with my bare hands if need be). She is nothing but fail, she has never accomplished anything other than getting herself in power followed by failure and the covering her own behind, and she is an embarrassment to any self-respecting Romulan or Reman.
I will gladly, happily, and eagerly take Sela's life (with my bare hands if need be).
But I wanna do it! lol.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
I'm just going to point out to everyone praising D'Tan that Republic forces were all too ready to try and claim both Dyson Spheres as their own (because somehow one isn't enough) and trigger a silly turf war due to their naked greed.
D'Tan runs a regime as deceptive and selfish as the Star Empire ever was, he simply feigns humility in order to avoid being crushed like a bug, and if I could only side with Sela and do just that the game would be far better off.
And who is supervising both Spheres? Oh, that's right, the RRF. Seems like the powers that be, the governments in charge of the soldiers, decided it was a good idea for the Republic to be in charge of the Spheres.
Correction, the RRF is heading up allied operations on one sphere, not both, likely because both the Klingons and the Federation want to butter up the Republic for as long as it remains useful to them.
I will gladly, happily, and eagerly take Sela's life (with my bare hands if need be). She is nothing but fail, she has never accomplished anything other than getting herself in power followed by failure and the covering her own behind, and she is an embarrassment to any self-respecting Romulan or Reman.
And what has D'Tan accomplished, exactly, other than exploiting the refugees of a destroyed planet, and mortgaging the Romulan birthright to it's rivals?
The Republic is a pitiable creature, existing only as long as the Feds and the Klingons are willing to suffer their presence.
I'm just going to point out to everyone praising D'Tan that Republic forces were all too ready to try and claim both Dyson Spheres as their own (because somehow one isn't enough) and trigger a silly turf war due to their naked greed.
D'Tan runs a regime as deceptive and selfish as the Star Empire ever was, he simply feigns humility in order to avoid being crushed like a bug, and if I could only side with Sela and do just that the game would be far better off.
And who is supervising both Spheres? Oh, that's right, the RRF. Seems like the powers that be, the governments in charge of the soldiers, decided it was a good idea for the Republic to be in charge of the Spheres.
Correction, the RRF is heading up allied operations on one sphere, not both, likely because both the Klingons and the Federation want to butter up the Republic for as long as it remains useful to them.
I will gladly, happily, and eagerly take Sela's life (with my bare hands if need be). She is nothing but fail, she has never accomplished anything other than getting herself in power followed by failure and the covering her own behind, and she is an embarrassment to any self-respecting Romulan or Reman.
And what has D'Tan accomplished, exactly, other than exploiting the refugees of a destroyed planet, and mortgaging the Romulan birthright to it's rivals?
The Republic is a pitiable creature, existing only as long as the Feds and the Klingons are willing to suffer their presence.
Subcommander Kaol is the one in the office of the Solanae Dyson Sphere. He's in charge. Who gives the missions in the Delta Quadrant? Commander Mena and Subcommander Rai Sahen, both based in the Jenolan Dyson Sphere. Yeah, you get some missions from General Q'Nel on Kobali Prime, and you work with Tuvok and Kim a few times, but the bulk of the missions come from RRF personnel. Denying this is tantamount to head in sand behavior.
What has D'Tan accomplished? Well, since you asked, ...
In the space of a year and a half, he has presided over the discovery of a new homeworld for the Romulan and Reman peoples, abolished slavery, led our peoples to a restored position of power (thereby preserving "Romulan" as one of the three major powers of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants), given his military commanders sufficient rein to drive the Star Empire and/or Tal'Shiar back to a rapidly-dwindling token of territory, been instrumental in the Jenolan Accords which led to a cease-fire between the Feds and the Klinks, started the building of a Capitol City on New Romulus, helped form the Delta Alliance, ...
What has Sela done? Covered her own behind (and usually not with great success), failed to discharge command responsibility over sociopaths like Hhakhifv, allowed unprovoked attacks on peaceful and loyal colony worlds, allowed Romulans and Remans to be hunted by Hirogen, allowed Romulans and Remans to be made into food for Elachi young, acted as a sometimes-absentee Empress over the Star Empire in its death-throes, been "captured" (or rescued) by Iconians, and generally strutted around trying to act tough while speaking in condescending tones to everyone.
The quality of leadership is evident in D'Tan, and obviously lacking in Sela. Chew on that for a bit.
I am all for the restoration of Romulus and the ability to play as a proper Romulan faction. What I want is a fully restored Romulan Star Empire, the alliance be damned.
As a Romulan fan this result intrigues me but it also opens up more stories.
However, I am confident that Romulus will not be restored for the simple reason that it would invalidate the JJverse and CBS would probably not allow that.
I will say that this Tales of the War was pretty well done. It hints at many possibilities for future content.
I started a thread in general discussion playing with some of this but we really don't know much about Mirror Romulus and with all this star-moving, planet-temporal phasing tech, I think it would be very interesting if the Mirror Romulus just phase shifted over to our universe and tried to assume command of the Empire.
Their universe is much more of a wasteland. Their values might be the same, roughly... if not identical. All of the Mirror Universe changes more or less seem to originate from earth. (Ie. the Vulcans still appear to have turned up with peaceful intentions and all other changes can be traced back VERY EASILY to Terran actions aside from maybe the Ferengi.) And given what we know of how Romulan Empire build from Sela and some of the soft canon, they'd probably be intermarried with our Romulans and producing offspring to cement themselves as a single Romulan Empire.
No time paradox necessary. All it would really require is for the Mirror Romulans to be essentially the same as ours, minus the Hobus incident, and decide they'd rather move into the power vacuum of our world (created in large part by a peaceful Federation and a missing Romulus) than take a side in the Alliance vs. Empire feud. Some mix of the planet moving/phasing tech we've seen in-game could probably be adapted to their purposes.
Kirk intervened as it was happening, this is not the same as someone from the future altering the past, Kirk used the past to alter his own relative present.
What in blazes are you blithering on about?
I'll tell you what would've happened without the Federation, the Klingon Empire would've fallen when Praxis exploded, and the Romulans would've overtaken the remnants of both nations.
So all hail our glorious Romulan overlords! Till they get assimilated by the Borg anyway.
Also, are you somehow implying the Federation as is isn't dedicated to the preservation of all life?
This isn't getting into how Earth's potential destruction as presented in ST4 isn't the fault of humans, but rather belligerent, uncaring and/or incompetent aliens that create probes that vandalise their surroundings.
So you think removing the sole catalyst for the creation of the Republic will somehow lead to the Republic being created anyway.
Logic? What's that?
And how is the Republic's existence a contradiction? It is a consequence of a galaxy altering change.
The same way Israel today exists mainly due to the holocaust, and the U.S. Became a dominant power due to world war 2.
I once saw a kid's show where the protagonist's attempt to save the Titanic ends up erasing himself from history, because his grandparents only met due to the aftermath of the sinking.
Even a kid's show understood the negative butterfly effects that can occur even with the noblest of intentions because however tragic the loss of people's lives are, we live in a world forever affected by those events.
Again, Kirk was altering his own relative present. He and nobody with him had experienced a timeline with Earth destroyed.
Nobody from the future influenced Kirk. Kirk did not change the timeline because *there is no timeline where the whaleprobe destroyed earth, it doesn't exist and never did*
If a Romulan had gone back and prevented Romulus' destruction as it was occuring from their perspective, that'd be one thing.
30 years later after all it's effects have actually changed the galaxy is entirely different.
Romulus is dead and gone. Nobody is being killed, they're already dead.
The people of Earth were not dead, they were alive when Kirk left, and this part's important, Kirk returned at the exact moment he left, when the window at Starfleet Command is smashed.
Kirk maintained his timeline in his present.
No, no, and no. Kirk is not immune to the butterfly effect. According to STIV whales had been dead for generations and he brought them back. Forever altering his own relative present with a species that had gone extinct a long time ago. Humpback whales had been extinct for much longer than 30 years but it was ok for Kirk to suddenly reintroduce them into his relative present? Not to mention the overt interactions with Earth's past that could easily have altered the timeline e.g. introducing transparent aluminum, the U.S. Navy's assumption the USSR had successfully infiltrated a nuclear carrier because of Checkov, a potential erasure of an entire lineage of people from the female biologist who tagged along into the future, and a potential new lineage of people from her procreation and actions in Kirk's present. etc. Kirk's relative present is what he altered it to be because of time traveling and changing his own past and future. That is no different than bringing back Romulus and Remus.
And then you assume the probe aliens were belligerent, instead of taking the humble approach that the aliens had technology so vastly different than that of Starfleet they could have no awareness to its destructive nature to Starfleet's technology and starships. To the aliens it was a logical probe to speak to humpback whales and worked perfectly when they were present. Or another assumption could have been that the aliens so revered humpback whales, that any other species so belligerent to make them go extinct SHOULD be destroyed by the probe as an act of ultimate Karmic retribution. Starfleet has at many times shown it is NOT for preserving of all life if it suits the interests of Startfleet. Tricking Odo to infect and kill off his entire race ring a bell? Starfleet has not been immune to trying to commit genocide.
The destruction of Romulus and Remus was NOT the sole catalyst for a creation of a Romulan Republic. To think so is a horrible injustice to the work Spock and the people he worked with on Romulus such as D'Tan. Change for the better CAN happen without the annihilation of billions of people. I'm sure the Jewish people would have much preferred living in a country free of persecution without having to go through a holocaust. The ends do not justify the means or are you arguing otherwise?
Under that logic, you might what to cheer for the Iconian's effort to massacre the galaxy to create a sense of vengeance and peace for themselves. Or as Emperor Palpatine once said so eloquently, "ONCE MORE, THE SITH WILL RULE THE GALAXY! And then...there will be peace." This logic sounds so great when we are on the winning side but I doubt its quite so lovely when you are the one forced to be the loser.
If Romulus and Remus were brought back it would be the timeline of the present. Whether it was brought back 30 years ago or a week ago, once you change the past the present is what was created when the past was changed. You are not maintaining anything. This goes for what Kirk did as well.
No, no, and no. Kirk is not immune to the butterfly effect.
There is a strong case to be made that the butterfly effect doesn't exist in Star Trek or at the very least that time naturally resists it.
In "City on the Edge of Forever", Spock discusses time having currents. In Parallels, despite major changes between timelines, Worf winds up on Enterprises in the same region of space examining the same satellite. In the 2009 film, everyone still meets and winds up serving on the same ship. In the Mirror Universe, we have hundreds of years of the same people meeting and having the same children at the same time who do similar jobs in similar places down to Sisko being on DS9 and Kirk investigating the Halkans on the Enterprise. In Yesterday's Enterprise, the ship is in the same region of space and has mostly the same senior staff. Likewise, there are numerous examples of people "fixing" historical errors and being "close enough" to restore a timeline that appears to be the original one.
I think you kind of have to assume that there is no such thing as the butterfly effect. History has rigid currents or tracks. You are either on one track or another. You can get into all kinds of hypotheses like the 29th century Temporal Integrity Commission or Temporal Investigations doing touch-ups.
But by and large, time travel has virtually no impact or it has massive impact but there isn't the kind of subtle shift leading to bigger shifts leading to unrecognizability you'd expect with a butterfly effect.
Heck, even in Bradbury's short story which a lot of Butterfly Effect thoughts on time travel stem from, the same candidates are running for office even though the language and culture have changed.
No, no, and no. Kirk is not immune to the butterfly effect.
There is a strong case to be made that the butterfly effect doesn't exist in Star Trek or at the very least that time naturally resists it.
In "City on the Edge of Forever", Spock discusses time having currents. In Parallels, despite major changes between timelines, Worf winds up on Enterprises in the same region of space examining the same satellite. In the 2009 film, everyone still meets and winds up serving on the same ship. In the Mirror Universe, we have hundreds of years of the same people meeting and having the same children at the same time who do similar jobs in similar places down to Sisko being on DS9 and Kirk investigating the Halkans on the Enterprise. In Yesterday's Enterprise, the ship is in the same region of space and has mostly the same senior staff. Likewise, there are numerous examples of people "fixing" historical errors and being "close enough" to restore a timeline that appears to be the original one.
I think you kind of have to assume that there is no such thing as the butterfly effect. History has rigid currents or tracks. You are either on one track or another. You can get into all kinds of hypotheses like the 29th century Temporal Integrity Commission or Temporal Investigations doing touch-ups.
But by and large, time travel has virtually no impact or it has massive impact but there isn't the kind of subtle shift leading to bigger shifts leading to unrecognizability you'd expect with a butterfly effect.
Heck, even in Bradbury's short story which a lot of Butterfly Effect thoughts on time travel stem from, the same candidates are running for office even though the language and culture have changed.
My use of the butterfly effect was in reponse to Lizwei's use of the butterfly effect as a warning against saving Romulus and Remus having unintended consequences. Your response seems better directed at Lizwei if you wish to argue that the butterfly effect has little relevance in Star Trek.
In fact, I'd like to follow through with your assertion on rigid currents or tracks being at play when events are changed in the timeline. It may very well prove to make a stronger argument that saving Romulus and Remus would have no effect on the eventual collapse of the Romulan Star Empire and the creation of a Romulan Republic. All of the players who enacted the Romulan Republic would still be there and the billions lost with the Hobus supernova could be prevented. The destruction of Romulus and Remus did not change D'Tan's mind, that was well on its way to fruition with Spock's time spent on Romulus supporting an opening of possibilities for the Romulan people.
To be clear, if we are to accept Kirk bringing back an extinct species long since dead to save the planet Earth. I think it equally acceptable making an attempt to save billions of lives lost from the Hobus supernova.
Also, those worried about altering the JJ Abrams timeline, they are already on a different timeline trajectory as in the JJ Abram's Star Trek Vulcan is clearly destroyed but in STO it is still very much intact. Any events changing the future of this timeline are already inextricably different than a Star Trek universe with a destroyed Vulcan. Nero already created a different timeline with its own trajectory which is and always will be different than the timeline in STO. Unless a future Star Trek movie tries to merge the timelines back into one, they do not have any effect on the other. As such, Romulus and Remus being brought back in this timeline will not have any effect on JJ Abram's timeline.
The next Star Trek reboot movie could destroy the entire Alpha quadrant and it would still have no effect on STO's Alpha quadrant as they are already two different timelines.
No, no, and no. Kirk is not immune to the butterfly effect.
There is a strong case to be made that the butterfly effect doesn't exist in Star Trek or at the very least that time naturally resists it.
.
With all the time travel events in Star Trek, and with that genetically modified group of people, it might look like it's all more like Asimov's Foundation novels. Psychohistory might be real in Trek.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Also, those worried about altering the JJ Abrams timeline, they are already on a different timeline trajectory as in the JJ Abram's Star Trek Vulcan is clearly destroyed but in STO it is still very much intact. Any events changing the future of this timeline are already inextricably different than a Star Trek universe with a destroyed Vulcan. Nero already created a different timeline with its own trajectory which is and always will be different than the timeline in STO. Unless a future Star Trek movie tries to merge the timelines back into one, they do not have any effect on the other. As such, Romulus and Remus being brought back in this timeline will not have any effect on JJ Abram's timeline.
The next Star Trek reboot movie could destroy the entire Alpha quadrant and it would still have no effect on STO's Alpha quadrant as they are already two different timelines.
You misunderstand, although understandably. Everything done in the JJVerse *timeline* is immaterial to STO, but the established canon is that the Narada came from the original, 'proper' timeline, the one STO follows on, and Romulus was destroyed before Narada was sent back and sideways. That's where the complications on what Cryptic can do come in, they have to keep to the canon of the original universe, and that includes a small but crucial part of the JJverse movie.
Also, those worried about altering the JJ Abrams timeline, they are already on a different timeline trajectory as in the JJ Abram's Star Trek Vulcan is clearly destroyed but in STO it is still very much intact. Any events changing the future of this timeline are already inextricably different than a Star Trek universe with a destroyed Vulcan. Nero already created a different timeline with its own trajectory which is and always will be different than the timeline in STO. Unless a future Star Trek movie tries to merge the timelines back into one, they do not have any effect on the other. As such, Romulus and Remus being brought back in this timeline will not have any effect on JJ Abram's timeline.
The next Star Trek reboot movie could destroy the entire Alpha quadrant and it would still have no effect on STO's Alpha quadrant as they are already two different timelines.
You misunderstand, although understandably. Everything done in the JJVerse *timeline* is immaterial to STO, but the established canon is that the Narada came from the original, 'proper' timeline, the one STO follows on, and Romulus was destroyed before Narada was sent back and sideways. That's where the complications on what Cryptic can do come in, they have to keep to the canon of the original universe, and that includes a small but crucial part of the JJverse movie.
Like I say, though, they could always just have us create (and erase) an alternate timeline and have the Romulus from that timeline stick around by shielding itself when we fix history, kinda like how Sela could exist despite her mother coming from an erased timeline. Or have the Mirror Romulans transport their planet to our universe and set up shop.
There's nothing stopping an alternate Romulus from existing in our universe as long as our timeline still has Romulus destroyed and missing until 2410.
Like I say, though, they could always just have us create (and erase) an alternate timeline and have the Romulus from that timeline stick around by shielding itself when we fix history, kinda like how Sela could exist despite her mother coming from an erased timeline. Or have the Mirror Romulans transport their planet to our universe and set up shop.
There's nothing stopping an alternate Romulus from existing in our universe as long as our timeline still has Romulus destroyed and missing until 2410.
Oh, yes, there are workarounds, certainly, and some with definitive story potential like your ideas, they just can't have the original destruction from 2009 Star Trek movie itself not having happened (which is what I was trying to explain to celku, that just because people are worried about altering something from that movie does not mean that the rest of the movie being in another timeline is a counter-argument).
Also, those worried about altering the JJ Abrams timeline, they are already on a different timeline trajectory as in the JJ Abram's Star Trek Vulcan is clearly destroyed but in STO it is still very much intact. Any events changing the future of this timeline are already inextricably different than a Star Trek universe with a destroyed Vulcan. Nero already created a different timeline with its own trajectory which is and always will be different than the timeline in STO. Unless a future Star Trek movie tries to merge the timelines back into one, they do not have any effect on the other. As such, Romulus and Remus being brought back in this timeline will not have any effect on JJ Abram's timeline.
The next Star Trek reboot movie could destroy the entire Alpha quadrant and it would still have no effect on STO's Alpha quadrant as they are already two different timelines.
You misunderstand, although understandably. Everything done in the JJVerse *timeline* is immaterial to STO, but the established canon is that the Narada came from the original, 'proper' timeline, the one STO follows on, and Romulus was destroyed before Narada was sent back and sideways. That's where the complications on what Cryptic can do come in, they have to keep to the canon of the original universe, and that includes a small but crucial part of the JJverse movie.
No I didn't misunderstand. Remember Tasha Yar from a different timeline created the now infamous Sela and yet here Sela is in this timeline wreaking havok. As Ginan famously said, "Tasha, you're not supposed to be here." This is due to two forks in the timeline being a consequence of the other. It is fine that Tasha Yar both dies in "Skin of Evil" and also goes back in time to give birth to Sela in "Yesterday's Enterprise" because neither fork in the timeline exists without the other.
A successful mission to save Romulus and Remus from destruction would never exist if there were not another timeline were Romulus and Remus were destroyed and Nero goes back in time and sets in motion the destruction of Vulcan. That timeline has happened and will always happen in that timeline. And if we were in a future with a destroyed Vulcan then it might coincide with the events that have to occur in that timeline but STO still has a planet Vulcan. We can therefore surmise that any action to change the past in this timeline would effect only this version of events not a universe with a destroyed Vulcan which is the case in JJ Abrams timeline. The new Star Trek movies can continue to blow up planets without any repercussion to this timeline. And as such, a successful mission to save Romulus and Remus would have no bearing on a timeline in which they were not saved. Unless of course you wish to argue to Cryptic to destroy Vulcan to coincide with the timeline developing in the new movies.
You still misunderstand. THE DESTRUCTION OF ROMULUS DID NOT HAPPEN IN THE JJ ABRAMS TIMELINE. It happened in the JJ Abrams movie, but not in the timeline. The destruction of Romulus happened in the, for lack of a better word, original timeline, and is regarded as having canonically happened there by CBS. That means Cryptic can't undo it without getting permission from CBS, and they are unlikely to get that seeing as it intersects with Paramount as well.
You still misunderstand. THE DESTRUCTION OF ROMULUS DID NOT HAPPEN IN THE JJ ABRAMS TIMELINE. It happened in the JJ Abrams movie, but not in the timeline. The destruction of Romulus happened in the, for lack of a better word, original timeline, and is regarded as having canonically happened there by CBS. That means Cryptic can't undo it without getting permission from CBS, and they are unlikely to get that seeing as it intersects with Paramount as well.
I do understand, did you not even read how a mission to save Romulus and Remus can not occur unless there is still a timeline in which they are destroyed? Just like how Tasha Yar can still die and also be sent back in time to give birth to Sela and both are part of the canon of the original timeline. They have already addressed this paradox before in Star Trek and yet you continue to deny that it has been done before. Saving Romulus and Remus does not go against canon, ROMULUS AND REMUS MUST STILL BE DESTROYED for a mission to occur to save the planets. One is the consequence of the other, they are not undoing anything.
Well, how about this for starters: Instead of Romulus being destroyed, it falls to the Borg. Sela's and Hakeeve's use of Borg tech brings the Queen directly to Romulus. The entire sector then has a full on Borg war on their hands, and Iconians send their servitors in to clean up the mess which lands the whole quadrant in thrall and slavery.
HA! Yeah! I think I just about NAILED IT! Eh, my byatches!!! Score, Game, Match: Theta Nine A.K.A. Do You like Apples? How About THOSE Apples!!!
Comments
What I am pointing out is that accusing a faction of violating its own rules under extreme circumstances is highly dangerous lest the accuser be seen as a hypocrite themselves when they are forced to act the same way.
I wouldn't put down any of the factions, but I would call out elements within the faction if such was neccesary.
I hold the federation and the republic in the same high regard, and wouldn't place one over the other OOCly.
Now if you ask Ryna or Caernu'lin of course you get a different answer. Their first duty is to the Republic.
Ask Elizabeth Angel Klein, her first duty is to Starfleet and the Federation, and while she won't go out and say which she thinks is "better" she knows, and will tell you where her duty lies.
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FYI D'tan isn't where the hypocrisy would be, he's an honest man who hasn't done anything of the sort.
Let me ask you How long has the republic been around? Compare to how long the Federation has been around. or the Klingon Empire.
Give it time, no faction remains perfect forever.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
Again, Tu Quoque is a fallacy. That X may have violated, or may in the future violate, their own rules or principles is not relevant to the charge that Y has done so. It does not excuse Y from guilt. It is an attempt to change the subject. Further, the charge said nothing about extreme circumstances, and, indeed, the charge is usually expressed in terms which allege that the Federation does so willy-nilly, at the drop of a hat, whenever the Prime Directive becomes simply "inconvenient," and not merely in extreme circumstances. This may be hyperbole, but it is the usual implication, if not the outright and explicit charge.
I am making a general point here. I'm not making excuses for anyone I'm telling you its a bad idea to play the faction name calling game.
You personally like the romulan republic, so do I.
That does not make it a wise idea to put down the other factions as inferior, its basically asking for a rather pointless argument.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
This did not need repeating. I understand what you said. What I'm saying is that such a statement is irrelevant to the assertion that Starfleet has violated the Prime Directive, and that they have done so whether the circumstances were extreme or not. To paint this as "name calling" is to misunderstand the nature of logic. A thing is, or it is not. A thing has a quality, or it does not. I am not condemning Starfleet for violating the Prime Directive; it is often necessary to do so. I am accusing Starfleet of external inconsistency (in layperson's terms, "hypocrisy") by virtue of their continued lip-service to the Prime Directive even while they realize that it is not possible to abide by it and still remain true to their other principles. As such, I would argue that the Prime Directive should be repealed. It is a nice idealistic principle, but it is also unrealistic. It would be better if they simply framed a principle of refraining from imperialism in all its forms, including cultural imperialism (but this would likely lay bare what the actual condemnation should be, for the Federation is no less imperialistic than the Klingon Empire, although their methods are different).
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
Let's be clear on what we're discussing. Starfleet General Order number 1 is "The Prime Directive." Its exact words (this is canon, from Star Trek: The Animated Series) are:
"No starship may interfere with the normal development of any alien life or society."
A legalistic literalist would note that no exceptions are given, and another might note that a starship is not a person (which could be taken as allowing a loophole for individuals within Starfleet), although Starfleet and the Federation generally are mercifully free of such a mentality (legalism and literalism) in general.
The spirit of Starfleet General Order 1 is anti-imperialism, which is why I say it should be repealed and replaced with an opposition to engaging in imperialism. What amendment would you make?
That doesn't change my stance on the federation one bit though, I think a flawed but well meaning faction is an interesting faction.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
That isnt the point. The point was that the proper way to respond to "the Federation is hypocritical" is to either provide evidence to the contrary or agree (if you do), not accuse another state of hypocrisy. We understand that you like them. Your liking them has no bearing on their status as hypocrites.
This whole argument is really juvenile and I wish we would all just drop it right now ok?
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
On the contrary. Juvenile suggests someone is being immature and childish. We are simply having a calm discussion on the Federations status of hypocrisy.
What we can do is take this elsewhere, to our own venues, since it has become largely a discussion between our own personnel, and may be tending to derail the topic. We have our own fora, our own dedicated TeamSpeak server, and our own in-game chat channels. Let's move this to one of those, and stop clogging up this thread with our own only-marginally-related-to-the-topic discussion.
Edit: I have started a thread in our own forum site for the discussion to continue.
D'Tan runs a regime as deceptive and selfish as the Star Empire ever was, he simply feigns humility in order to avoid being crushed like a bug, and if I could only side with Sela and do just that the game would be far better off.
And who is supervising both Spheres? Oh, that's right, the RRF. Seems like the powers that be, the governments in charge of the soldiers, decided it was a good idea for the Republic to be in charge of the Spheres.
I will gladly, happily, and eagerly take Sela's life (with my bare hands if need be). She is nothing but fail, she has never accomplished anything other than getting herself in power followed by failure and the covering her own behind, and she is an embarrassment to any self-respecting Romulan or Reman.
But I wanna do it! lol.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
Correction, the RRF is heading up allied operations on one sphere, not both, likely because both the Klingons and the Federation want to butter up the Republic for as long as it remains useful to them.
And what has D'Tan accomplished, exactly, other than exploiting the refugees of a destroyed planet, and mortgaging the Romulan birthright to it's rivals?
The Republic is a pitiable creature, existing only as long as the Feds and the Klingons are willing to suffer their presence.
I don't see any other Romulan faction doing any better than the Romulan Republic did even before everyone else got involved.
Subcommander Kaol is the one in the office of the Solanae Dyson Sphere. He's in charge. Who gives the missions in the Delta Quadrant? Commander Mena and Subcommander Rai Sahen, both based in the Jenolan Dyson Sphere. Yeah, you get some missions from General Q'Nel on Kobali Prime, and you work with Tuvok and Kim a few times, but the bulk of the missions come from RRF personnel. Denying this is tantamount to head in sand behavior.
What has D'Tan accomplished? Well, since you asked, ...
In the space of a year and a half, he has presided over the discovery of a new homeworld for the Romulan and Reman peoples, abolished slavery, led our peoples to a restored position of power (thereby preserving "Romulan" as one of the three major powers of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants), given his military commanders sufficient rein to drive the Star Empire and/or Tal'Shiar back to a rapidly-dwindling token of territory, been instrumental in the Jenolan Accords which led to a cease-fire between the Feds and the Klinks, started the building of a Capitol City on New Romulus, helped form the Delta Alliance, ...
What has Sela done? Covered her own behind (and usually not with great success), failed to discharge command responsibility over sociopaths like Hhakhifv, allowed unprovoked attacks on peaceful and loyal colony worlds, allowed Romulans and Remans to be hunted by Hirogen, allowed Romulans and Remans to be made into food for Elachi young, acted as a sometimes-absentee Empress over the Star Empire in its death-throes, been "captured" (or rescued) by Iconians, and generally strutted around trying to act tough while speaking in condescending tones to everyone.
The quality of leadership is evident in D'Tan, and obviously lacking in Sela. Chew on that for a bit.
As a Romulan fan this result intrigues me but it also opens up more stories.
However, I am confident that Romulus will not be restored for the simple reason that it would invalidate the JJverse and CBS would probably not allow that.
I will say that this Tales of the War was pretty well done. It hints at many possibilities for future content.
Their universe is much more of a wasteland. Their values might be the same, roughly... if not identical. All of the Mirror Universe changes more or less seem to originate from earth. (Ie. the Vulcans still appear to have turned up with peaceful intentions and all other changes can be traced back VERY EASILY to Terran actions aside from maybe the Ferengi.) And given what we know of how Romulan Empire build from Sela and some of the soft canon, they'd probably be intermarried with our Romulans and producing offspring to cement themselves as a single Romulan Empire.
No time paradox necessary. All it would really require is for the Mirror Romulans to be essentially the same as ours, minus the Hobus incident, and decide they'd rather move into the power vacuum of our world (created in large part by a peaceful Federation and a missing Romulus) than take a side in the Alliance vs. Empire feud. Some mix of the planet moving/phasing tech we've seen in-game could probably be adapted to their purposes.
No, no, and no. Kirk is not immune to the butterfly effect. According to STIV whales had been dead for generations and he brought them back. Forever altering his own relative present with a species that had gone extinct a long time ago. Humpback whales had been extinct for much longer than 30 years but it was ok for Kirk to suddenly reintroduce them into his relative present? Not to mention the overt interactions with Earth's past that could easily have altered the timeline e.g. introducing transparent aluminum, the U.S. Navy's assumption the USSR had successfully infiltrated a nuclear carrier because of Checkov, a potential erasure of an entire lineage of people from the female biologist who tagged along into the future, and a potential new lineage of people from her procreation and actions in Kirk's present. etc. Kirk's relative present is what he altered it to be because of time traveling and changing his own past and future. That is no different than bringing back Romulus and Remus.
And then you assume the probe aliens were belligerent, instead of taking the humble approach that the aliens had technology so vastly different than that of Starfleet they could have no awareness to its destructive nature to Starfleet's technology and starships. To the aliens it was a logical probe to speak to humpback whales and worked perfectly when they were present. Or another assumption could have been that the aliens so revered humpback whales, that any other species so belligerent to make them go extinct SHOULD be destroyed by the probe as an act of ultimate Karmic retribution. Starfleet has at many times shown it is NOT for preserving of all life if it suits the interests of Startfleet. Tricking Odo to infect and kill off his entire race ring a bell? Starfleet has not been immune to trying to commit genocide.
The destruction of Romulus and Remus was NOT the sole catalyst for a creation of a Romulan Republic. To think so is a horrible injustice to the work Spock and the people he worked with on Romulus such as D'Tan. Change for the better CAN happen without the annihilation of billions of people. I'm sure the Jewish people would have much preferred living in a country free of persecution without having to go through a holocaust. The ends do not justify the means or are you arguing otherwise?
Under that logic, you might what to cheer for the Iconian's effort to massacre the galaxy to create a sense of vengeance and peace for themselves. Or as Emperor Palpatine once said so eloquently, "ONCE MORE, THE SITH WILL RULE THE GALAXY! And then...there will be peace." This logic sounds so great when we are on the winning side but I doubt its quite so lovely when you are the one forced to be the loser.
If Romulus and Remus were brought back it would be the timeline of the present. Whether it was brought back 30 years ago or a week ago, once you change the past the present is what was created when the past was changed. You are not maintaining anything. This goes for what Kirk did as well.
There is a strong case to be made that the butterfly effect doesn't exist in Star Trek or at the very least that time naturally resists it.
In "City on the Edge of Forever", Spock discusses time having currents. In Parallels, despite major changes between timelines, Worf winds up on Enterprises in the same region of space examining the same satellite. In the 2009 film, everyone still meets and winds up serving on the same ship. In the Mirror Universe, we have hundreds of years of the same people meeting and having the same children at the same time who do similar jobs in similar places down to Sisko being on DS9 and Kirk investigating the Halkans on the Enterprise. In Yesterday's Enterprise, the ship is in the same region of space and has mostly the same senior staff. Likewise, there are numerous examples of people "fixing" historical errors and being "close enough" to restore a timeline that appears to be the original one.
I think you kind of have to assume that there is no such thing as the butterfly effect. History has rigid currents or tracks. You are either on one track or another. You can get into all kinds of hypotheses like the 29th century Temporal Integrity Commission or Temporal Investigations doing touch-ups.
But by and large, time travel has virtually no impact or it has massive impact but there isn't the kind of subtle shift leading to bigger shifts leading to unrecognizability you'd expect with a butterfly effect.
Heck, even in Bradbury's short story which a lot of Butterfly Effect thoughts on time travel stem from, the same candidates are running for office even though the language and culture have changed.
My use of the butterfly effect was in reponse to Lizwei's use of the butterfly effect as a warning against saving Romulus and Remus having unintended consequences. Your response seems better directed at Lizwei if you wish to argue that the butterfly effect has little relevance in Star Trek.
In fact, I'd like to follow through with your assertion on rigid currents or tracks being at play when events are changed in the timeline. It may very well prove to make a stronger argument that saving Romulus and Remus would have no effect on the eventual collapse of the Romulan Star Empire and the creation of a Romulan Republic. All of the players who enacted the Romulan Republic would still be there and the billions lost with the Hobus supernova could be prevented. The destruction of Romulus and Remus did not change D'Tan's mind, that was well on its way to fruition with Spock's time spent on Romulus supporting an opening of possibilities for the Romulan people.
To be clear, if we are to accept Kirk bringing back an extinct species long since dead to save the planet Earth. I think it equally acceptable making an attempt to save billions of lives lost from the Hobus supernova.
Also, those worried about altering the JJ Abrams timeline, they are already on a different timeline trajectory as in the JJ Abram's Star Trek Vulcan is clearly destroyed but in STO it is still very much intact. Any events changing the future of this timeline are already inextricably different than a Star Trek universe with a destroyed Vulcan. Nero already created a different timeline with its own trajectory which is and always will be different than the timeline in STO. Unless a future Star Trek movie tries to merge the timelines back into one, they do not have any effect on the other. As such, Romulus and Remus being brought back in this timeline will not have any effect on JJ Abram's timeline.
The next Star Trek reboot movie could destroy the entire Alpha quadrant and it would still have no effect on STO's Alpha quadrant as they are already two different timelines.
With all the time travel events in Star Trek, and with that genetically modified group of people, it might look like it's all more like Asimov's Foundation novels. Psychohistory might be real in Trek.
Like I say, though, they could always just have us create (and erase) an alternate timeline and have the Romulus from that timeline stick around by shielding itself when we fix history, kinda like how Sela could exist despite her mother coming from an erased timeline. Or have the Mirror Romulans transport their planet to our universe and set up shop.
There's nothing stopping an alternate Romulus from existing in our universe as long as our timeline still has Romulus destroyed and missing until 2410.
No I didn't misunderstand. Remember Tasha Yar from a different timeline created the now infamous Sela and yet here Sela is in this timeline wreaking havok. As Ginan famously said, "Tasha, you're not supposed to be here." This is due to two forks in the timeline being a consequence of the other. It is fine that Tasha Yar both dies in "Skin of Evil" and also goes back in time to give birth to Sela in "Yesterday's Enterprise" because neither fork in the timeline exists without the other.
A successful mission to save Romulus and Remus from destruction would never exist if there were not another timeline were Romulus and Remus were destroyed and Nero goes back in time and sets in motion the destruction of Vulcan. That timeline has happened and will always happen in that timeline. And if we were in a future with a destroyed Vulcan then it might coincide with the events that have to occur in that timeline but STO still has a planet Vulcan. We can therefore surmise that any action to change the past in this timeline would effect only this version of events not a universe with a destroyed Vulcan which is the case in JJ Abrams timeline. The new Star Trek movies can continue to blow up planets without any repercussion to this timeline. And as such, a successful mission to save Romulus and Remus would have no bearing on a timeline in which they were not saved. Unless of course you wish to argue to Cryptic to destroy Vulcan to coincide with the timeline developing in the new movies.
I do understand, did you not even read how a mission to save Romulus and Remus can not occur unless there is still a timeline in which they are destroyed? Just like how Tasha Yar can still die and also be sent back in time to give birth to Sela and both are part of the canon of the original timeline. They have already addressed this paradox before in Star Trek and yet you continue to deny that it has been done before. Saving Romulus and Remus does not go against canon, ROMULUS AND REMUS MUST STILL BE DESTROYED for a mission to occur to save the planets. One is the consequence of the other, they are not undoing anything.
HA! Yeah! I think I just about NAILED IT! Eh, my byatches!!! Score, Game, Match: Theta Nine A.K.A. Do You like Apples? How About THOSE Apples!!!