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New Melee Critical Chance and Severity Security Officer Gipprouze Has Wrong Stats
heero139
Member Posts: 125 Arc User
Previous VR (purple) Melee crit chance & severity values: 8% chance, 25% severity
Previous R (blue) Melee crit chance & severity values: 6% chance, 20% severity
Gipprouze values: 6% chance, 20% severity
I didn't get the impression from the news about this box that the "reprints" of these older duty officers were supposed to be bad versions. Did I understand incorrectly?
Previous R (blue) Melee crit chance & severity values: 6% chance, 20% severity
Gipprouze values: 6% chance, 20% severity
I didn't get the impression from the news about this box that the "reprints" of these older duty officers were supposed to be bad versions. Did I understand incorrectly?
Zekkie@h33r0yuy
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Should be nerfed even more though.
STO Screenshot Archive
This is one thing that certainly doesn't need nerfing. If you don't know anything about melee I'd suggest not commenting, these doffs make it possible for Sci's and Engi's to enjoy the melee side of the game in a competitive manner, and thankfully they still perform even with the changes that DR made.
While tacticals certainly get a boost from them, it still takes a good build to take full advantage of them, and seeing as I can fight a tac with those to a standstill regardless in a PvP setting (been there done it) these are perfectly fine, the Krenim doffs need their values fixed to what other Melee doffs have.
I'd really like to hear your reasoning behind this comment? Because personally after seeing what Melee characters are capable of doing, when "Used" correctly, I'm surprised more people don't run at least one. Personally I think additional melee weapons added to the game would be well received by those that do run them. Or even the ability to dual wield two one handed weapons, whether it be two swords or maybe a sword and a pistol.
And why they should be nerfing it???? did they nerf the superior romulan operative boffs?? we can have 30+ crit chance and +150 cri severity in space but we cant have something similar on ground?? the reasoning of some of you escapes me...
You don't buff something to make classes viable in something they're not originally able to. This is a design fallacy because it unbalances the class intended to melee, as it makes them too strong. Those DOFFs allow Tactical captains to Lunge for more than 5K on a common basis, and give Sweeping Strikes the highest shield-bypassing ground DPS in the game. If you think that's fine then I don't think you know what balance is about.
Because those DOFFs are rare and expensive. I agree that melee should be more viable overall, but more of those broken DOFFs are not the answer.
Glad you asked, because I don't agree with the way space crit rates are either. However, it takes more effort for space characters to attain such rates. It's way easier to acquire the three ground melee DOFFs (if you can afford them) and go to town.
The devs have already stated that they don't want one-hit mechanics in game. And those DOFFs easily allow it. There are other mechanics in ground that allow for one-hits and a plethora of them in space. I still think it's all wrong, even that the chance of them ceasing is nil, as the devs are addressing the symptoms and not the causes. See: Invincible, Taking You With Me and Blaze of Glory traits. They are trying to neuter one-hits by adding invincibility shenanigans. All this does is create a lot of third rails that are never gonna get removed.
STO Screenshot Archive
Of course you can, and frankly it sounds like you want the trinity system (yawn). I never said anything about balance, I said these doffs make playing melee on Sci's and Engi's viable while letting Tacs do what they do best, kill stuff.
Melee is a choice on how one approaches ground combat, and you have to build for it right because otherwise you're opening yourself up to getting slaughtered yourself, and that takes a time investment, both to get these in the first place but to also get the gear and skill to use it all properly. I don't really know what you're complaining about anyway due to your vagueness, because anyone who knows how to play their role in PvE (DPS, Support, Healer, Tank etc etc) will always make it look amazing, but most people never do.
These aren't a god mode by themselves any more than Romulan Crit Doffs are in space, because if they were I tell you they'd be worth even more than they are. What amazes me though is that you seem to think melee is OP, yet you conveniently ignore the fact that any form of DPS build done right will be just as potent, just through different methods.
Finally, as for the devs saying about one-shotting I believe that was in relation to PvP with the BO and other similar powers (which we all know how that went). To be frank we've been told that they want teamwork in the game, that leads to one-shotting in PvE repeatedly and yet they never minded that, because teamwork is how you're intended to play and thanks to the range of builds and rolls available to all professions the way teamwork happens in the matches has just as much variety. Now ground in itself by the devs working is pretty balanced, you only have to hear the figures they quote for failure rates to know that, and as for PvP if you're getting one-shot by a lunge you're doing it wrong.
Well what do I say other than rest my face in my palms! Calling for something to be nerf'd because you think its over priced. Yeah that works! So your reasoning should apply to Plasmonic leech and the Kemocite weaponry as well then!
The only thing broken is that the Krenim doff's are under performing against the older ones. Other than that they're working as intended.
So every kit power/module needs nerfing then? I'm sorry but give me a TR-116B with my current main, along with his kit frame and modules I can one shot anything up to a heavy tac drone in the advanced STF's. I can two hit an elite given the right circumstances. And this coming from the same Dev's who were shocked and surprised when the 100k barrier in space was broken!
At the end of the day power creep sells, Cryptic know this, in fact most of the player base knows this.
This ^^ in a nut shell, cast your mind back Taras, when we were testing the particular kit power that reflects all incoming damage back at the attacker (can't remember the name of it off the top of my head, its been that long since we tested it), did you not win that match, without performing a single attack? And did we scream for that power to be nerf'd? No I don't believe we did, we went away thought about it, and ADAPTED to it.
I said they are overpriced as the reason you're not seeing many of them around, in response to your prior quote. Sorry for not being clearer about it.
STO Screenshot Archive
They didnt nerfed it because when roms get it and battle cloak (and mostly useless singulary core powers) you get on your neet feddy ship with access to 99,99% stuff (where roms get maybe 30% stuff acces) a nice +45 weapon power on core, WASTLY STRONGER warp core with extra power to further increase the base increase in power (making your shields better, weapons stronger, heals superior and faster). Your ships have more defense, and for having similar hull and shields, get way more turn rate (or for the same speed/turn they get more hull and tankyness, or in case of FPER extra weapon with superior stats).
The only thing is lockbox ships that make the problem as rom toons dont have limited rom boff number there (or the ships dont have limit of SRO/subterfuge traits that they can benefit). But this isnt the problem or romulans, but lockbox ships
It's not like I *want* the trinity system. It is just implied by the in-game classes when you create a new character. It tells me that the devs want Scis to heal, Engis to tank/fabricate, and Tacs to DPS. (Of course they have no idea at this point.) It's the player's call to make a melee Sci or Engi, but they won't do it as well as a Tac.
All in all, my main complaint is: I don't think a single DOFF should reward more than a single skill.
Each DOFF awards 8% crit chance and 25% crit severity. Uptime 100%.
A single DOFF basically outperforms EVERY TAC SKILL that grants crit by a very wide margin (mind the Uptime).
And you can slot three of them!
(Values from wiki)
Target Optics: 5% chance, 50% severity for 15s, 45s recharge, Uptime 33%.
Rally Cry: 5% chance, 50% severity for 10s, 1m recharge, Uptime 16%.
Strike Team: (wiki doesn't have values for Rank III, so I am guessing... ~8% crit chance, ~40% crit severity) for 30s, 5m recharge, Uptime 10%.
Granted it's only melee, but for a Tac it's very possible and quite viable to do an all-melee character these days, and you don't even need a melee weapon for that.
Not really. Melee DPS is better than energy because it ignores shields (80%), thus nullifying any form of decent shield-tanking, which is a subset of Engineer builds. I've heard it also ignores the "perfect shields" mechanic from Science's Medical Vanguard trait. Barred the TR116B, the Zefram shotgun, and the occasional one-hit plasma/radiation shield-bypassing DoT (mostly other atrocities), nothing much else compares in terms of armor damage. Kinetic damage is 50% bypass, so shields have at least some effect against them. Same with Science AoEs. You can build up pure energy DPS as high as you can but a good shield tanker will make it a lot less effective. So, no, it won't be just as potent as you claim. That said, yes I do think melee is OP mostly because of Lunge and the 80% bypass. If Lunge (or melee in general) had less shield penetration, I'd be okay with it.
STO Screenshot Archive
Lunge/Sweeping strikes builds ignore only 50% of shielding; 80% is for swords/melee weapons - A good measure to make melee viable for Sci's, more than anything - get your facts straight, thus equal to what you mentioned, to kinetic. Again, reasonably balanced. Plus, if you play stupid, pure melee WILL get you killed.
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I hope that's just a big generalisation you've just made about the professions, I mean you've only missed out buffing, debuffing, support, specific tanking styles, crowd control and enemy manipulation (not really a term for that one, remember the confuse abilities?) not to mention the different styles of DPS dealing. Those roles are important in themselves and not something to be tacked on to the outside.
Those are base figures you've quoted that haven't been modified by skills. You also have to remember that, in order to have a melee build on a Tac, you have to give up two kit slots for lunge and sweeping strikes, which takes away from your potential damage buffs, which at present is 3 kit spaces plus any captain powers you might have to hand. But the other assumption you make is that melee base damage is on an even keel which it really isn't, melee damage is much lower than ranged weapons, so a number of your crits is simply making up for the shortfall in base damage output.
This statement is particularly bad: "Granted it's only melee, but for a Tac it's very possible and quite viable to do an all-melee character these days, and you don't even need a melee weapon for that." As darkrider rightfully said: "
And it does, just like any other build that isn't played or done right. When they fixed the Auto Carbine (crits in the mid to high hundreds per hit if you've done it right) I got shot up quite a few times thanks to how much damage I was able to do with it, and again I built some defences into my build and now, while I still draw a lot of aggro for the amount of both single and AoE damage I deal I sacrificed a little bit of DPS for healing and now it's fine, same with melee as they generally have to run a heal like biotech syphon to stay alive in testing circumstances, which again takes away from powers that buff them up in the first place. So again, the melee doffs make up for a shortfall before they start adding to our higher damage output. Trust me I wouldn't be making these points if I hadn't actually gone out and achieved everything I've claimed during this discussion.
Just on a few other points, shield tanks can still have high damage resistance ratings for their armour as much as they can for shields, and that's become even easier now with upgrading and new kit powers like the scarab plating. Also there are a couple of Sci AoE's that have 100% shield pen, can't remember one but there is Endothermic Induction Field, the DoT on that is 100%, which in practice is slightly more powerful than Exothermic. Also the shield pen is like what Jan said, 50%. Swords, standard unarmed (or having no weapon) and two-handed are indeed 80% pen as well, however nano-pulse weapons don't have any shield pen, they have damage reflection instead on spin combo's.
Also you need to realise that as far as ground goes there's always a counter; if you tell me what the foe is I can come up with something that'll counter it. Ground is fairly balanced right now but the issue is people who don't know how ground actually works, most people you see are crutch users and not actually the knowledgeable ones who have the working builds. It's not like space where everything from here to the moon is broken in some manner, and what most appreciate even less is the interactions between all the various powers that can readily exacerbate the potency of other powers.
I'm sorry to be harsh, @tk79 - but I've devoted my character(s) to ground, and when I see someone being as aggressive towards a hard nerf, which'd make the melee much less viable, downright not viable/efficient, compared to other stuff in the game (in terms of efforts & investments, be it EC, trait setup, etc), while lacking basic knowledge about the ground.. I just have to say something. *howgz*
On topic - It would be good to know, if the numbers on the Krenim doff melee crit/severity reprints are intended or merely a bug, though; and very appreciated, too.
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"bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh."
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After doing some testing, I stand corrected. Although:
It seems to be more like 66% than 50%.
See, I get that melee is fun. I have a full melee character like you do, and he has those three melee DOFFs as well, and I have fun playing him. But unlike you (by looking at your signature), after the initial amusement of being able to Lunge a Borg Boss in Defera for 5K, I can't help but think it just feels wrong. I'd feel the same way if I did 50K DPS in space. But I'm clearly the minority here, so I'll just leave you guys alone.
STO Screenshot Archive
No. I agree with you. I mean, one thing is to inflict a decent ammount of damage, but 5k????? no way that is intended. Of course it is a bug or some exploit. And needs to be fixed. 5000k in ground is like 100k in space (and im being generous) more or less. Insane.
But the person your quoting, is using Defera ground as an example. Its a push over and the targets have very little resistances compared to missions such as Infected Ground Advanced. And to be honest if the 5k is an issue with melee, then logic would dictate that all tac powers are nerf'd because I'm capable of producing hits of that magnitude with a TR-116. But as for your comparison, how many people in space and hit 100k? and look at how many people can hit for 5k or more in ground. I bet it's not very many.
For completeness sake, the NPC in question was the Borg scorpion-like boss from one of the Hard missions.
You can also refer to @jodarkrider's signature (the one I mentioned in my post):
STO Screenshot Archive
That isn't much off a test subject to be honest.
Do you people even realise how you get these numbers anyway? These kinds of numbers are fully buffed exploits, usually on a flank with a debuffed target, it's not something you do time after time, the 5K range is an area that is saved for special targets and you won't be doing much with those buffs afterwards.
I bet you all must be bad when its an engineer in the spotlight, you lot cry over one target getting a heavy kick yet competent engineers can one shot entire groups without breaking a sweat and without a particularly honed build, and they can do another right after the first, a tac has to wait for recharge timers to pull that feat off again.
Sorry but the fact your using anything from Defera for a basis of comparison is laughable at best. As a matter of course I don't melee and I as well as several other fleet mates are more than capable of taking down the Elite Gorn Tactical Drone one on one.
I dont have any idea how many people can hit with 5k on ground.. im surely cant. Im pretty sure of it. lol. I mean, i can deal about 2000-3000 damage in a great critical shot, with my plasma pulsewave assault shot 2 and using the navy armor in a romulan character.. but thats the maximum damage i can get. Well, with one critical of my cochranes shotgun i do more or less the same.. (im talking about mk XIV..) but 5k?? its pretty insane.. i dont know how people can achieve that if it is not due to some exploit or a bug. It should be checked..
Also, Elite Tac Drone on Elite has 15k HP (Didn't check for shields, sorry - and yes, I mean Elite, running Elite Borg ground content in whichever form I can find, Advanced STFs not much lately...). Imagine nibbling this with like 100-200 HP hits. I think I'd fall asleep. With my regular 1,5 - 2k crits makes it actually viable and fun to solo that MF'er; but I have to work for it - so again, where is the problem again?
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Has it ever occurred to you that people have experimented with different builds, and skill tree combinations? Hell I spent months looking for the perfect kit frame for what I wanted and I'm sorry to say I've had to compromise on that aspect. because frames with a 4/1 layout are hard to find, factor in Mk XII or better and the three proc's that I'd like, well as of yet I've not found it. And tbh I dont think certain traits are working correctly, and I refer to a PM with a the numbers in for testing of the Sniper trait I sent to Trendy when it was released. Also I've upgraded all my ground gear to Mk 14 epic.
Oh and lets not forget the biggest thing that allows us to punch at this level, now you must promise not to let this get out. but the key to all it all is..... "Teamwork".
Now the secret's out. What will we do?! *snrk*
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"bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh."
"Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness." ~Day[9]
"Your fun isn't wrong." ~LaughingTrendy
Find me on Twitterverse - @jodarkrider
This has been confirmed and submitted by the devs as a bug, so they're in line for a fix.