@Protogoth: I read all of your explanations, and I am grateful you take the time to be as thorough as you are, but I still cannot help but to consider it "pragmatic". Since I lack the in-depth understanding of terminology I can only resort to much simpler terms but the way I see it you never condemn any act unworthy of considering as long as it serves the superordinate goal which is, in my basic understanding, the definition of "pragmatic".
If I were judging the behavior solely with an eye to whether or not it served some goal, that would make my view consequentialist, which is most certainly is not. While goals are indeed a feature of my view of the behavior, intention and context must also be considered for what I would view as a proper judgment.
I will provide a critique of Consequentialism in two parts, which may perhaps help to convey my meaning:
1. If person S pointed a pistol at person P and pulled the trigger with the intention of murder, but the shell were a "dud," the consequentialist would say that person S had done no wrong. This is patently absurd.
2. If person S saw person P drowning and jumped into the water intending to save person P's life, but both drowned, the consequentialist would say that person S had done wrong. This is also patently absurd.
Obviously, therefore, consequences alone cannot be used to judge the rightness of behavior.
So if the reason for not using the weapon (as always, the whole discussion contains so many unknown variables and the only way it was shown to work was a WMD that was always accompanied by ironic twists) is because such weapons and particularly in this case the implied extermination of a race is what sets us apart from an enemy that would go this way, the consideration of using it in that way would not set "us" apart from said enemy we don't fall short on demonizing the entire time.
The extermination of a threat is not something to demonize. If they were like an ordinary society, with civilians as well as military personnel, the consideration would be relevant. They are not. They are all intent on committing atrocity against others, and they must be stopped. We have no jail cell which can reliably hold them. They will not back down. They have been injured and it did not serve to teach them that we are not worth their losses. One of them has been killed, and it only encouraged their desire to commit atrocity against us. The only option we have is to eliminate them, and those who have not the stomach for such a decision should not be entrusted with command. Now, we do not have to eliminate them by means of the Krenim weapon, but anyone who thinks they can be negotiated with should consider the wisdom of attempting to negotiate with a copperhead; the result would be the same. Again, we did not start this war. They did. We would not have sought them out with the intention of exterminating them. They have sought us out with the intention of exterminating or enslaving us. They are immensely powerful, but they are not immortal. We are not immortal, either, but we are not so powerful. They pose a real and present danger, a threat to our very existence and our freedom. If we do not kill them, they will only continue trying to kill and/or enslave us. "Oh, but we're better than that." Go ahead and be better, and see how well that serves you in the grave. That honest attitude on the part of James T. Kirk impressed the Metrons. That pretense on the part of William T. Riker impressed the T'Kon Portal. It's not going to impress the Iconians and encourage them to back down. They are bound and determined to rule the galaxy once again, and we're in their way.
And that doesn't sit well with me because I dont know wether or not we still all talk about just a video game and/or make postings from a certain in-character POV but I see numerous people propagating the usage of WMD and in case of the Kreenim weapon one that was shown on screen to not only remove the target but the target's entire history which basically could mean exterminating every Iconian ever existed, de facto a "back in time WMD", because we are made believe that everything is so super desperate that we basically have to become monsters in order to survive but there is nothing that reinforces those claims. And this doesn't feel good, honestly, because it does show how little integrity "we" as a society semingly put in those values as long as some form of authority tells us that everything is super gritty desperate.
I made plain on page 11 of this thread that accusing my main of "compromising" her principles was based on insufficient knowledge to judge her. I will state as well that accusing her of a lack of integrity in her values is likewise based on ignorance. She has values (in fact, she is an absolutist, but that does not mean that she cannot weigh the context and apply those values in that context, because, although she believes very strongly in absolutes, she is not a legalist); that they are not identical with those of the Federation does not make her evil. She has more in common with Federation values than she does not, but there are differences in her values from theirs. This has nothing to do with any external authority, but with her own internal compass. She has fought her own government, in defiance of injustice, at a time when there was no Republic. She has taken arms against her fellow Imperial Star Navy personnel who were about to commit a war crime, and was vindicated for it (eventually, in a time before the Star Empire was beyond repair).
Let me make something else plain, in response to your view that the total eradication of the Iconians would make us into "monsters":
In an ordinary situation, my main would never even consider the total extermination of an entire species. Her principles do not view needless death, nor the killing of innocents, as laudatory or desirable. But this is not an ordinary situation, in several particulars:
1. the enemy is an extremely serious threat
2. we're not currently winning the war
3. if we lose the war, we will all be dead (most sooner, a few later), along with our friends, families, and rivals, our cultures will be gone, our accomplishments will be rendered moot
4. the enemy is a species with no civilians, no children, no innocents; they are all guilty of attempting to exterminate or enslave us, and neither of those outcomes is tolerable. In the past, they were tyrannical overlords of the galaxy, who were removed from power by just rebellion.
This is the context which must be considered.
In addition, as I pointed out on page 3 of this thread:
As I have said elsewhere in this forum, my only complaint about this is that my main character, a Fleet Admiral, Praetor of the Tal'Diann/Tal-Diann, Chief of New Romulan Military Intelligence, is not so incapable of critical thinking that she would be likely to believe this to be a good idea except in the most extreme of circumstances (which is what we're being told we're in, even if it doesn't feel like that to the player), but 1. the storyline has a linear progression instead of branches based on our characters' decisions, so we don't get to tell the story ourselves nor affect the outcome of the story by our choices, and 2. we don't yet know how the weapon is going to be used, what the target(s) will be, what the results will be, nor even ... who will use the weapon. That last bit is something very much worth considering. We don't know. We may opt to not use the weapon, and then Section 31 goes ahead and does it anyway. Someone else may decide to use it, in spite of our decision. So I would advise you to relax, and wait and see what happens, instead of continuing to vent about something that has not yet happened, and may not happen in the way you are worried it will happen.
Many people have made several assumptions about the Krenim weapon: how it will be used, who will use it, what the target will be. Yet in VOY, we saw it used to erase a comet, as well as to erase entire species. The beliefs that the target will be the entire Iconian race, that it will be used to entirely eliminate them from time, that we will be the ones to use it, all of these are assumptions.
In fact, it might turn out that we don't actually need to out all the Iconians. I suspect that if we showed that we had a reasonable repeatable way of taking them out, they would probably consider negotiations*.
But the Krenim weapon might not provide such a way - if, say, T'Ket never existed, the Iconians that exist would not worry that we killed him - he was never part of their Circle. It would be a bit like in Crusher's warp bubble, except she wouldn't realize the disappearance of everyone around her.
(Unless, of course, such a temporal change is in fact something that would drive the Iconians mad. Maybe we already did it then?)
*) That's also the reason why in practice in the real world, you won't find a case of "reasonable genocide" - because if your enemy realizes he's close to extinction, he will almost certainly negotiate, and the threat to you would be resolved. Heck, even if he would not be willing to surrender, it's likely that killing enough would allow you to capture or isolate the rest so you don't have to kill them. The Iconians are basically deliberately set up as an antagonist that is different from this.
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It would be a bit like in Crusher's warp bubble, except she wouldn't realize the disappearance of everyone around her.
I remember watching that when it was a new episode, and at a certain point in the show just as the edge of the bubble appeared again (she was on the bridge at that time), the lights and TV flickered just briefly, like hit with a surge or something, and I almost came out of my chair, lol. That was one of the actually great episodes of TNG, and that experience in the real world when I was so into the episode just made it that much better.
This isn't a good idea in any circumstance because of how the weapon works. Removing ANYTHING from ALL of time causes really uncontrollable butterfly effect.
The approach that wiping out all the iconians is still ok,
also sounds fine for the Romulan Republic, but Very iffy for Starfleet.
Starfleet are the naive goody goodies remember? That's one reason I like them. The Republic is more middle of the road, and the klingons are the COWABUNGA faction.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
We know what the Iconians intentions are - just look at the posters they created as shown on the transition screens. 'Serve Us or Die'. Couldn't be clearer.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
We know what the Iconians intentions are - just look at the posters they created as shown on the transition screens. 'Serve Us or Die'. Couldn't be clearer.
(...)
4. the enemy is a species with no civilians, no children, no innocents; they are all guilty of attempting to exterminate or enslave us, and neither of those outcomes is tolerable. In the past, they were tyrannical overlords of the galaxy, who were removed from power by just rebellion.
(...)
But this is, also, just an assumption as we know literally nothing about them aside from the three sisters. They can just as well be crazy duras sisters. Add to that the crazy inconsistency in T'Ket's (or whatever she's called, I don't remember and I'm bored with them anyway ) character during the episodes you pointed out yourself. I think this is also why all of it is so little convincing in my book. At this point it looks like a piece set up by Q than a serious all out extermination war situation.
We know what the Iconians intentions are - just look at the posters they created as shown on the transition screens. 'Serve Us or Die'. Couldn't be clearer.
I had a chuckle seeing this. Imagine the three sistrs floating in front of a photoshop-application and some Heralds in the background carrying paper and posters around, changing printer cartridges - if you make those posters part of the lore it's probably another propaganda piece by "our" own governments, making it akin to north korean posters about American soldiers eating children...
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
(...)
4. the enemy is a species with no civilians, no children, no innocents; they are all guilty of attempting to exterminate or enslave us, and neither of those outcomes is tolerable. In the past, they were tyrannical overlords of the galaxy, who were removed from power by just rebellion.
(...)
But this is, also, just an assumption as we know literally nothing about them aside from the three sisters. They can just as well be crazy duras sisters. Add to that the crazy inconsistency in T'Ket's (or whatever she's called, I don't remember and I'm bored with them anyway ) character during the episodes you pointed out yourself. I think this is also why all of it is so little convincing in my book. At this point it looks like a piece set up by Q than a serious all out extermination war situation.
It's not an assumption; it's a conclusion based on the available evidence:
"The whole must be as one." -- Strongly suggests that every Iconian alive was present at the little conference they had on the moon in the Kyana system. AND all of them joined in the chant and agreed to continue the campaign as planned. Note: the campaign as planned, which means go back and look at the info from their database again and remember what that plan is. Which means that, even if some of them be not what we would consider "active duty military," they are all guilty of war crimes. What do we do with war criminals? We execute them. You Feds may want to try to reform them; some insanity is incurable.
"They are all ladies," said zeroniusrex. -- Unless they have something like parthenogenesis, they can't have offspring.
"We will rule this galaxy, as is our right and our duty," proclaimed M'Tara. -- Suggesting that we "show them proper deference" and that being slaves is preferable to destroying the enemy who would exterminate most of us immediately, some of us by "subsuming" us into the Elachi, and others by placement in forced labor camps is, frankly, quite bizarre.
It was M'Tara, and the "inconsistency" has to be taken in-universe (without consideration that there may be more than one writer), and therefore must be seen as symptomatic of psychopathology and ethical capriciousness. They claim to be gods. A god must be worthy of worship. Capricious beings are therefore disqualified from godhood.
Some thought / think that dropping two nukes on Japan saved more lives than it took, shortened the continuation of WWII, and avoided a possible US or Chinese or Russian occupation of Japan (or some kind of split Korea version of Japan) -- and even avoided another front for the US in the Korea or even Vietnam wars.
Others think only of the deaths the two nukes caused .
While both arguments have merit, what isn't debated is that it takes a hard heart & mind to order such an order .
The last (badly written) Blog had an Admiral bellyaching over a few hundred deaths (when it should have been a few thousand) made; t sound like he was not the guy who'd drop nukes ... , if you catch my meaning.
I don't believe this analogy fits because the context isn't the same. There is a big difference between dropping 2 WoMDs to end a war versus using a WoMD to wipe out an entire race. Annorax was wiping out entire civilizations with it, many of whom didn't appear to have any conflict with the Krenim.
You are correct: there is a big difference between dropping two WoMDs on two civilian population centers and using one WoMD to eliminate a species which has no civilians, has a history of being tyrannical overlords, and has openly and blatantly declared their intention to rend our worlds asunder and let our oceans fill with our blood.
It's not an assumption; it's a conclusion based on the available evidence:
"The whole must be as one." -- Strongly suggests that every Iconian alive was present at the little conference they had on the moon in the Kyana system. AND all of them joined in the chant and agreed to continue the campaign as planned. Note: the campaign as planned, which means go back and look at the info from their database again and remember what that plan is. Which means that, even if some of them be not what we would consider "active duty military," they are all guilty of war crimes. What do we do with war criminals? We execute them. You Feds may want to try to reform them; some insanity is incurable.
"They are all ladies," said zeroniusrex. -- Unless they have something like parthenogenesis, they can't have offspring.
"We will rule this galaxy, as is our right and our duty," proclaimed M'Tara. -- Suggesting that we "show them proper deference" and that being slaves is preferable to destroying the enemy who would exterminate most of us immediately, some of us by "subsuming" us into the Elachi, and others by placement in forced labor camps is, frankly, quite bizarre.
It was M'Tara, and the "inconsistency" has to be taken in-universe (without consideration that there may be more than one writer), and therefore must be seen as symptomatic of psychopathology and ethical capriciousness. They claim to be gods. A god must be worthy of worship. Capricious beings are therefore disqualified from godhood.
Now you are confusing me. If you talk in-character (also in regards to "you feds": I don't forum-RP. And If so I had characters from each faction and from many different peoples. So I would prefer not to be adressed like that. You may call me Targ, though ) you cannot take out-of-universe information into consideration. And if you consider everyone present/alive guilty of what happens without even trying to learn more about those in the background I find this notion to be a little bit schizophrenic, considering the Romulan history.
Now, out-of-universe watching it as a piece of Star Trek, not even half of the alliences options have been exhausted at that point as all they do all the time is to run head first into some wall and get wiped and then whine about how they got whiped afterwards. Nobody attempts to learn and understand the Iconians and learn about possibilities to communicate - in-universe the technology is even there. What about the preservers, only one library was destroyed. What about the Prophets or the Guardian, all of those are aware of the Iconians and none of them seems to be in their favour really. We never talked to the Tholians again *after* they have been attacked as well and they seem to have powerful technology at their disposal the Iconians are a little bit allergic to. If the Iconians were defeated via an alliance of many people maybe we should try to get more in the boat than just our three factions. What about the whole Delta-Recruit timetravel thing? Did that turn out to be helpful in any way? There are too many variables and open questions for me as out-of-character Targ to support the way the storyline unfolds and I think to even consider using a WMD like that is just madness.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
It's not an assumption; it's a conclusion based on the available evidence:
"The whole must be as one." -- Strongly suggests that every Iconian alive was present at the little conference they had on the moon in the Kyana system. AND all of them joined in the chant and agreed to continue the campaign as planned. Note: the campaign as planned, which means go back and look at the info from their database again and remember what that plan is. Which means that, even if some of them be not what we would consider "active duty military," they are all guilty of war crimes. What do we do with war criminals? We execute them. You Feds may want to try to reform them; some insanity is incurable.
"They are all ladies," said zeroniusrex. -- Unless they have something like parthenogenesis, they can't have offspring.
"We will rule this galaxy, as is our right and our duty," proclaimed M'Tara. -- Suggesting that we "show them proper deference" and that being slaves is preferable to destroying the enemy who would exterminate most of us immediately, some of us by "subsuming" us into the Elachi, and others by placement in forced labor camps is, frankly, quite bizarre.
It was M'Tara, and the "inconsistency" has to be taken in-universe (without consideration that there may be more than one writer), and therefore must be seen as symptomatic of psychopathology and ethical capriciousness. They claim to be gods. A god must be worthy of worship. Capricious beings are therefore disqualified from godhood.
Now you are confusing me. If you talk in-character (also in regards to "you feds": I don't forum-RP. And If so I had characters from each faction and from many different peoples. So I would prefer not to be adressed like that. You may call me Targ, though ) you cannot take out-of-universe information into consideration. And if you consider everyone present/alive guilty of what happens without even trying to learn more about those in the background I find this notion to be a little bit schizophrenic, considering the Romulan history.
Now, out-of-universe watching it as a piece of Star Trek, not even half of the alliences options have been exhausted at that point as all they do all the time is to run head first into some wall and get wiped and then whine about how they got whiped afterwards. Nobody attempts to learn and understand the Iconians and learn about possibilities to communicate - in-universe the technology is even there. What about the preservers, only one library was destroyed. What about the Prophets or the Guardian, all of those are aware of the Iconians and none of them seems to be in their favour really. We never talked to the Tholians again *after* they have been attacked as well and they seem to have powerful technology at their disposal the Iconians are a little bit allergic to. If the Iconians were defeated via an alliance of many people maybe we should try to get more in the boat than just our three factions. What about the whole Delta-Recruit timetravel thing? Did that turn out to be helpful in any way? There are too many variables and open questions for me as out-of-character Targ to support the way the storyline unfolds and I think to even consider using a WMD like that is just madness.
Fine, go right ahead and try to get to know them, and try to negotiate with them. Just remember, you don't represent the Republic and therefore cannot negotiate on our behalf. And I will go ahead and not mourn you after your naïveté gets you killed.
Some thought / think that dropping two nukes on Japan saved more lives than it took, shortened the continuation of WWII, and avoided a possible US or Chinese or Russian occupation of Japan (or some kind of split Korea version of Japan) -- and even avoided another front for the US in the Korea or even Vietnam wars.
Others think only of the deaths the two nukes caused .
While both arguments have merit, what isn't debated is that it takes a hard heart & mind to order such an order .
The last (badly written) Blog had an Admiral bellyaching over a few hundred deaths (when it should have been a few thousand) made; t sound like he was not the guy who'd drop nukes ... , if you catch my meaning.
I don't believe this analogy fits because the context isn't the same. There is a big difference between dropping 2 WoMDs to end a war versus using a WoMD to wipe out an entire race. Annorax was wiping out entire civilizations with it, many of whom didn't appear to have any conflict with the Krenim.
In my post I talked about two things (metaphorically) .
1- The very different perceptions of a horrific act by the players . Some can look no further than the act itself , while others look at a bigger picture .
2- The type of mentality required to actually give such an order -- which some folks here seem to either not be able to give (either in character or out of character) , or there are some whom seem to be all too cavalier about it being "just one more order" (I too may have seemed to fall into that group) .
Thus what I wanted to clarify was that while it's an us-VS-them situation , I see no need to hesitate or debate, at the same time I do not trivialize the matter down to just a push of a button ... , as there are things that you carry with you, just like those who ordered and carried out the nuclear strikes on Japan did .
EDIT:
Oh yeah, and as to the difference between dropping 2 WoMDs to end a war versus using a WoMD to wipe out an entire race... -- while I'm not 100% certain , I think that there existed the chance that the US would have continued to nuke Japan if it had refused to surrender , possibly to a point of poisoning the whole main island .
Some thought / think that dropping two nukes on Japan saved more lives than it took, shortened the continuation of WWII, and avoided a possible US or Chinese or Russian occupation of Japan (or some kind of split Korea version of Japan) -- and even avoided another front for the US in the Korea or even Vietnam wars.
Others think only of the deaths the two nukes caused .
While both arguments have merit, what isn't debated is that it takes a hard heart & mind to order such an order .
The last (badly written) Blog had an Admiral bellyaching over a few hundred deaths (when it should have been a few thousand) made; t sound like he was not the guy who'd drop nukes ... , if you catch my meaning.
I don't believe this analogy fits because the context isn't the same. There is a big difference between dropping 2 WoMDs to end a war versus using a WoMD to wipe out an entire race. Annorax was wiping out entire civilizations with it, many of whom didn't appear to have any conflict with the Krenim.
Yeah, only two of them. The Rilnar were first, and he did it because the Krenim were at war and losing.... Which had horrible side effects. He later did something similar with the Zahl who had taken the Rilnar's place as the mortal enemy of the Krenim. There was no data on the Ram-Izad, Alsurans, or Garenor, and they seemed to be innocent bystanders.
The Malkoth were mentioned as a neighboring race that was powerful in one timeline. But I don't know if they were actually an enemy of the Krenim.
EDIT:
Oh yeah, and as to the difference between dropping 2 WoMDs to end a war versus using a WoMD to wipe out an entire race... -- while I'm not 100% certain , I think that there existed the chance that the US would have continued to nuke Japan if it had refused to surrender , possibly to a point of poisoning the whole main island .
I recently read an article suggesting one big motiviator to drop the second nuke was that it was very expensive (more than the first one, since it was a different type) to make, and they wanted to justify the cost.
It's often stated that Japan was unwilling to surrender,but that is not quite correct - they were, but they didn't want to surrender unconditionally. And in the end, they still did not - they got one condition regarding the safety of their Emperor accepted. Aside from the bombings, Russia had also declared war against Japan, which meant that any hope of the Russians negotiating an end of the war was dashed, too.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
This isn't a good idea in any circumstance because of how the weapon works. Removing ANYTHING from ALL of time causes really uncontrollable butterfly effect.
The approach that wiping out all the iconians is still ok,
also sounds fine for the Romulan Republic, but Very iffy for Starfleet.
Starfleet are the naive goody goodies remember? That's one reason I like them. The Republic is more middle of the road, and the klingons are the COWABUNGA faction.
War makes fools of the good and martyrs of the bad.
But the reason behind the intent is the same -- save lives, end a war.
The Iconian war just ups the scale .
Sure, times here in STO are different and the (very, very badly written) dialogue is attempting to drive toward a desperate situation where a weapon such as the Krenim one is needed. That still doesn't wash for me and does not fit the IP IMO
It fits with the analogy of what a "superpower" (think US or former USSR) would do if it's hegemony and or it's very existence was suddenly under threat .
While Sweeden or Nigeria would go for the "impassioned speech at the UN" approach, such superpowers would instead use all the means at their disposal to eliminate said threat -- both out of self preservation and arrogance , but also out of the "we're too big to fail / manifest destiny" self image ... -- which I think the Federation & Klingon Empire share to an extent .
Thus in a way the use of such a weapon does share the IP's outlook ... , as Trek was always about mirroring the human condition ... , and it is the human condition that both had us dropping nukes in the past, and has us dancing on the tip of a blade as far as nukes in the wrong hands go today .
The Federation was losing the Dominion war badly and they didn't develop some WoMD to wipe out the Dominion in their entirety.
Only the Founders ... -- or did you miss that bit .
Feds also didn't court martial Sisko for tricking the Romulans into playing cannon fodder ... a war the Romulans wanted no part of, and which cost them thousands of lives if not more .
Each of those deaths are on Sisko's hands too ... , so you see Garak was wrong ... , and the price was higher then the self respect of one Starfleet officer .
The Borg were an enormous threat, yet Picard didn't use Hugh as a weapon to potentially cripple them.
Yet it was Admiral Nacheyev who chastised Picard on that very same issue and directly ordered him to eliminate the Borg by any means necessary should he have another opportunity to do so .
Many here seem to conveniently forget that any and every Starfleet captain in every Trek show we saw had to contend with an us VS them situation ... , and often they escaped not only the situation , but the moral implication of said situation by the skin of their teeth ... , or ... they were not held seriously accountable for their actions (or lack of thereof) .
I seem to recall the Klingons and Romulans saying the same thing about the Federation at one point or another. I'm fairly certain when the Borg told us "Resistance is Futile", they weren't talking about offering us milk and cookies. We didn't need to build a WoMD to wipe any of them out.
In TNG a Romulan told Geordi that the Star Empire was planning to exterminate humans as a species. Yet by the end of the episode, they are almost friends.
Feds also didn't court martial Sisko for tricking the Romulans into playing cannon fodder ... a war the Romulans wanted no part of, and which cost them thousands of lives if not more .
Each of those deaths are on Sisko's hands too ... , so you see Garak was wrong ... , and the price was higher then the self respect of one Starfleet officer .
I don't think the Sisko told them.... So the admiralty knew just as much about Vreenak's death as the Romulans did.
And that went into the acceptable losses category. A few thousand die so millions more can be saved. Regrettable, but in the end.... the only thing that the Sisko did wrong was lying about it.
Feds also didn't court martial Sisko for tricking the Romulans into playing cannon fodder ... a war the Romulans wanted no part of, and which cost them thousands of lives if not more .
Each of those deaths are on Sisko's hands too ... , so you see Garak was wrong ... , and the price was higher then the self respect of one Starfleet officer .
I don't think the Sisko told them.... So the admiralty knew just as much about Vreenak's death as the Romulans did.
It seems Starfleet approved of his basic plan, to use espionage to bring the Romulans into the war, but he didn't tell them about the criminal parts; the forgery, murder and bribes that it entailed.
Here's a part of a Log by Sisko mid episode :
Maybe... I was under more pressure
than I realized. Maybe it really
was starting to get to me.
At the time, I thought I was off
the hook. Starfleet Command had
given the plan their blessing and
I thought that would make things
easier .
But I was the one who had to make
it happen. I was the one who had
to look Senator Vreenak in the eye
and convince him that a lie... was
the truth.
Q
Markhawkman wrote :
And that went into the acceptable losses category. A few thousand die so millions more can be saved. Regrettable, but in the end.... the only thing that the Sisko did wrong was lying about it.
Actually the numbers saved were in the Billions or more and this too proved that the highly moralistic Starfleet knew when to fold the Prime Directive when it was convenient (aka deemed necessary) .
Approving such a plan must not have been easy either, but just like with the Dominion, with the Iconians too we ran out of time to befriend them ... -- and just like with the Dominion, befriending us seems to have been never on the table from their point of view .
Feds also didn't court martial Sisko for tricking the Romulans into playing cannon fodder ... a war the Romulans wanted no part of, and which cost them thousands of lives if not more .
They can't court martial him for things they didn't know about. The only things they know probably is that Sisko talked with a Romulan Senator that was later killed, and the Romulans accuse the Dominion.
At best, they know of the original plan - a falsified isolinear chip implicating a Dominion plan for Romulus. Not a nice act, but also not something to court-martial him for, since Starfleet obviously considered this a justified war effort.
Of course, we will never know for sure, but there was an important Founder comment about the future of the Cardassian and Romulan people. The female Changling is not telling the whole truth here, considering that there were survivors still imprisoned by the Dominion at the time.: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQEMsTmLh7g
But considering what happened to some other rebellious races, and what happened to Cardassia at the end of the war, I would actually be very surprised if she didn't mean it.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
But if you eliminate the Iconians with the Krenim weapon, you don't end a war. you reset the galaxy from 200,000 years ago.
The only way to END the war with this weapon would be to fire it at something like... a single carefully selected iconian gateway or ship, or maybe a component, which would hopefully "reset" the Iconians to be losing without messing up too much else.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
But the reason behind the intent is the same -- save lives, end a war.
The Iconian war just ups the scale.
You're completely wrong. There is an enormous difference between the two scenarios, and the Federation being involved on any level with the genocide of an entire race doesn't fit the IP, no matter how you slice it.
General Order 24 allows the eradication of a planet if said planet poses a clear and present danger to the Federation.
But the reason behind the intent is the same -- save lives, end a war.
The Iconian war just ups the scale.
You're completely wrong. There is an enormous difference between the two scenarios, and the Federation being involved on any level with the genocide of an entire race doesn't fit the IP, no matter how you slice it.
I didn't say that. Please attribute quotes to the people who actually said them.
General Order 24 allows the eradication of a planet if said planet poses a clear and present danger to the Federation.
Yeah, but the order was never executed, not even the two times it was actually given. Just because the legal possibilities are there if everything fails doesn't mean they do it on a regular basis. Even the whole Borg erradication thing cannot be traced further than an admiral's decision in Starfleet.
But maybe it's just that harping on the "grimdark desperation of everything's bad all the time" becomes really annoying at one point. In the spirit of the IP though the UFP should not partake in such actions.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
But the reason behind the intent is the same -- save lives, end a war.
The Iconian war just ups the scale.
You're completely wrong. There is an enormous difference between the two scenarios, and the Federation being involved on any level with the genocide of an entire race doesn't fit the IP, no matter how you slice it.
Look, you can argue here till you're blue in the face, but evidence shown in the TV shows show the Federation / Starfleet to be pro-genocide on at least two occasions ... , and please do not confuse official Starfleet policy with the decisions one captain makes.
- Case #1 :
The episode "Descent" in which Nechayev clearly tells Jean-Luc that his way of dealing with Hugh was more than just stupid.
As a senior flag officer she's speaking on behalf of Starfleet when she tells Jean-Luc that he is now under ORDERS to take ANY opportunity to get rid of the Borg once and for all.
-Case # 2 :
The DS9 ep. "Dogs of War"
In his quarters, Captain Sisko tells Odo that after considering the issue, the Federation Council decided not to give the Founders the cure to their disease. Odo thinks that the Federation is simply abetting genocide, but Sisko reminds Odo that while Section 31 might have been responsible for the virus it was the Founders that started the war, and that giving them the cure would only strengthen their hand, something unacceptable given that millions of people are risking their lives fighting the Dominion. Sisko then asks Odo to promise him he won't take matters into his own hands. Odo gives the Captain his word, but before he leaves notes that while the Federation is officially condemning Section 31's ethics and tactics they are more than happy to turn a blind eye when they need dirty work doing. Sisko doesn't like the facts very much, but can't deny the truth of Odo's statement.
* for fairness sake, I just wanted to point out that the text for "Chase #2" was pulled from Memory Alpha .
In short, baby Borg in cradles, thousands millions or billions of Romulans or Founders -- it's ALL FAIR GAME as long as the security of the Federation is achieved .
You may now proceed and tell me how the shows got it wrong and how you (or your character) got it right .
Comments
If I were judging the behavior solely with an eye to whether or not it served some goal, that would make my view consequentialist, which is most certainly is not. While goals are indeed a feature of my view of the behavior, intention and context must also be considered for what I would view as a proper judgment.
I will provide a critique of Consequentialism in two parts, which may perhaps help to convey my meaning:
1. If person S pointed a pistol at person P and pulled the trigger with the intention of murder, but the shell were a "dud," the consequentialist would say that person S had done no wrong. This is patently absurd.
2. If person S saw person P drowning and jumped into the water intending to save person P's life, but both drowned, the consequentialist would say that person S had done wrong. This is also patently absurd.
Obviously, therefore, consequences alone cannot be used to judge the rightness of behavior.
The extermination of a threat is not something to demonize. If they were like an ordinary society, with civilians as well as military personnel, the consideration would be relevant. They are not. They are all intent on committing atrocity against others, and they must be stopped. We have no jail cell which can reliably hold them. They will not back down. They have been injured and it did not serve to teach them that we are not worth their losses. One of them has been killed, and it only encouraged their desire to commit atrocity against us. The only option we have is to eliminate them, and those who have not the stomach for such a decision should not be entrusted with command. Now, we do not have to eliminate them by means of the Krenim weapon, but anyone who thinks they can be negotiated with should consider the wisdom of attempting to negotiate with a copperhead; the result would be the same. Again, we did not start this war. They did. We would not have sought them out with the intention of exterminating them. They have sought us out with the intention of exterminating or enslaving us. They are immensely powerful, but they are not immortal. We are not immortal, either, but we are not so powerful. They pose a real and present danger, a threat to our very existence and our freedom. If we do not kill them, they will only continue trying to kill and/or enslave us. "Oh, but we're better than that." Go ahead and be better, and see how well that serves you in the grave. That honest attitude on the part of James T. Kirk impressed the Metrons. That pretense on the part of William T. Riker impressed the T'Kon Portal. It's not going to impress the Iconians and encourage them to back down. They are bound and determined to rule the galaxy once again, and we're in their way.
I made plain on page 11 of this thread that accusing my main of "compromising" her principles was based on insufficient knowledge to judge her. I will state as well that accusing her of a lack of integrity in her values is likewise based on ignorance. She has values (in fact, she is an absolutist, but that does not mean that she cannot weigh the context and apply those values in that context, because, although she believes very strongly in absolutes, she is not a legalist); that they are not identical with those of the Federation does not make her evil. She has more in common with Federation values than she does not, but there are differences in her values from theirs. This has nothing to do with any external authority, but with her own internal compass. She has fought her own government, in defiance of injustice, at a time when there was no Republic. She has taken arms against her fellow Imperial Star Navy personnel who were about to commit a war crime, and was vindicated for it (eventually, in a time before the Star Empire was beyond repair).
Let me make something else plain, in response to your view that the total eradication of the Iconians would make us into "monsters":
In an ordinary situation, my main would never even consider the total extermination of an entire species. Her principles do not view needless death, nor the killing of innocents, as laudatory or desirable. But this is not an ordinary situation, in several particulars:
1. the enemy is an extremely serious threat
2. we're not currently winning the war
3. if we lose the war, we will all be dead (most sooner, a few later), along with our friends, families, and rivals, our cultures will be gone, our accomplishments will be rendered moot
4. the enemy is a species with no civilians, no children, no innocents; they are all guilty of attempting to exterminate or enslave us, and neither of those outcomes is tolerable. In the past, they were tyrannical overlords of the galaxy, who were removed from power by just rebellion.
This is the context which must be considered.
In addition, as I pointed out on page 3 of this thread:
Many people have made several assumptions about the Krenim weapon: how it will be used, who will use it, what the target will be. Yet in VOY, we saw it used to erase a comet, as well as to erase entire species. The beliefs that the target will be the entire Iconian race, that it will be used to entirely eliminate them from time, that we will be the ones to use it, all of these are assumptions.
But the Krenim weapon might not provide such a way - if, say, T'Ket never existed, the Iconians that exist would not worry that we killed him - he was never part of their Circle. It would be a bit like in Crusher's warp bubble, except she wouldn't realize the disappearance of everyone around her.
(Unless, of course, such a temporal change is in fact something that would drive the Iconians mad. Maybe we already did it then?)
*) That's also the reason why in practice in the real world, you won't find a case of "reasonable genocide" - because if your enemy realizes he's close to extinction, he will almost certainly negotiate, and the threat to you would be resolved. Heck, even if he would not be willing to surrender, it's likely that killing enough would allow you to capture or isolate the rest so you don't have to kill them. The Iconians are basically deliberately set up as an antagonist that is different from this.
I remember watching that when it was a new episode, and at a certain point in the show just as the edge of the bubble appeared again (she was on the bridge at that time), the lights and TV flickered just briefly, like hit with a surge or something, and I almost came out of my chair, lol. That was one of the actually great episodes of TNG, and that experience in the real world when I was so into the episode just made it that much better.
The approach that wiping out all the iconians is still ok,
also sounds fine for the Romulan Republic, but Very iffy for Starfleet.
Starfleet are the naive goody goodies remember? That's one reason I like them. The Republic is more middle of the road, and the klingons are the COWABUNGA faction.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
That perfectly looped gif though
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
But this is, also, just an assumption as we know literally nothing about them aside from the three sisters. They can just as well be crazy duras sisters. Add to that the crazy inconsistency in T'Ket's (or whatever she's called, I don't remember and I'm bored with them anyway
I had a chuckle seeing this. Imagine the three sistrs floating in front of a photoshop-application and some Heralds in the background carrying paper and posters around, changing printer cartridges
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It's not an assumption; it's a conclusion based on the available evidence:
"The whole must be as one." -- Strongly suggests that every Iconian alive was present at the little conference they had on the moon in the Kyana system. AND all of them joined in the chant and agreed to continue the campaign as planned. Note: the campaign as planned, which means go back and look at the info from their database again and remember what that plan is. Which means that, even if some of them be not what we would consider "active duty military," they are all guilty of war crimes. What do we do with war criminals? We execute them. You Feds may want to try to reform them; some insanity is incurable.
"They are all ladies," said zeroniusrex. -- Unless they have something like parthenogenesis, they can't have offspring.
"We will rule this galaxy, as is our right and our duty," proclaimed M'Tara. -- Suggesting that we "show them proper deference" and that being slaves is preferable to destroying the enemy who would exterminate most of us immediately, some of us by "subsuming" us into the Elachi, and others by placement in forced labor camps is, frankly, quite bizarre.
It was M'Tara, and the "inconsistency" has to be taken in-universe (without consideration that there may be more than one writer), and therefore must be seen as symptomatic of psychopathology and ethical capriciousness. They claim to be gods. A god must be worthy of worship. Capricious beings are therefore disqualified from godhood.
You are correct: there is a big difference between dropping two WoMDs on two civilian population centers and using one WoMD to eliminate a species which has no civilians, has a history of being tyrannical overlords, and has openly and blatantly declared their intention to rend our worlds asunder and let our oceans fill with our blood.
Now you are confusing me. If you talk in-character (also in regards to "you feds": I don't forum-RP. And If so I had characters from each faction and from many different peoples. So I would prefer not to be adressed like that. You may call me Targ, though
Now, out-of-universe watching it as a piece of Star Trek, not even half of the alliences options have been exhausted at that point as all they do all the time is to run head first into some wall and get wiped and then whine about how they got whiped afterwards. Nobody attempts to learn and understand the Iconians and learn about possibilities to communicate - in-universe the technology is even there. What about the preservers, only one library was destroyed. What about the Prophets or the Guardian, all of those are aware of the Iconians and none of them seems to be in their favour really. We never talked to the Tholians again *after* they have been attacked as well and they seem to have powerful technology at their disposal the Iconians are a little bit allergic to. If the Iconians were defeated via an alliance of many people maybe we should try to get more in the boat than just our three factions. What about the whole Delta-Recruit timetravel thing? Did that turn out to be helpful in any way? There are too many variables and open questions for me as out-of-character Targ to support the way the storyline unfolds and I think to even consider using a WMD like that is just madness.
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Fine, go right ahead and try to get to know them, and try to negotiate with them. Just remember, you don't represent the Republic and therefore cannot negotiate on our behalf. And I will go ahead and not mourn you after your naïveté gets you killed.
In my post I talked about two things (metaphorically) .
1- The very different perceptions of a horrific act by the players . Some can look no further than the act itself , while others look at a bigger picture .
2- The type of mentality required to actually give such an order -- which some folks here seem to either not be able to give (either in character or out of character) , or there are some whom seem to be all too cavalier about it being "just one more order" (I too may have seemed to fall into that group) .
Thus what I wanted to clarify was that while it's an us-VS-them situation , I see no need to hesitate or debate, at the same time I do not trivialize the matter down to just a push of a button ... , as there are things that you carry with you, just like those who ordered and carried out the nuclear strikes on Japan did .
EDIT:
Oh yeah, and as to the difference between dropping 2 WoMDs to end a war versus using a WoMD to wipe out an entire race... -- while I'm not 100% certain , I think that there existed the chance that the US would have continued to nuke Japan if it had refused to surrender , possibly to a point of poisoning the whole main island .
The Malkoth were mentioned as a neighboring race that was powerful in one timeline. But I don't know if they were actually an enemy of the Krenim.
My character Tsin'xing
It's often stated that Japan was unwilling to surrender,but that is not quite correct - they were, but they didn't want to surrender unconditionally. And in the end, they still did not - they got one condition regarding the safety of their Emperor accepted. Aside from the bombings, Russia had also declared war against Japan, which meant that any hope of the Russians negotiating an end of the war was dashed, too.
War makes fools of the good and martyrs of the bad.
But the reason behind the intent is the same -- save lives, end a war.
The Iconian war just ups the scale .
It fits with the analogy of what a "superpower" (think US or former USSR) would do if it's hegemony and or it's very existence was suddenly under threat .
While Sweeden or Nigeria would go for the "impassioned speech at the UN" approach, such superpowers would instead use all the means at their disposal to eliminate said threat -- both out of self preservation and arrogance , but also out of the "we're too big to fail / manifest destiny" self image ... -- which I think the Federation & Klingon Empire share to an extent .
Thus in a way the use of such a weapon does share the IP's outlook ... , as Trek was always about mirroring the human condition ... , and it is the human condition that both had us dropping nukes in the past, and has us dancing on the tip of a blade as far as nukes in the wrong hands go today .
Only the Founders ... -- or did you miss that bit .
Feds also didn't court martial Sisko for tricking the Romulans into playing cannon fodder ... a war the Romulans wanted no part of, and which cost them thousands of lives if not more .
Each of those deaths are on Sisko's hands too ... , so you see Garak was wrong ... , and the price was higher then the self respect of one Starfleet officer .
Yet it was Admiral Nacheyev who chastised Picard on that very same issue and directly ordered him to eliminate the Borg by any means necessary should he have another opportunity to do so .
Many here seem to conveniently forget that any and every Starfleet captain in every Trek show we saw had to contend with an us VS them situation ... , and often they escaped not only the situation , but the moral implication of said situation by the skin of their teeth ... , or ... they were not held seriously accountable for their actions (or lack of thereof) .
In TNG a Romulan told Geordi that the Star Empire was planning to exterminate humans as a species. Yet by the end of the episode, they are almost friends.
Now look at where we are now in STO.
And that went into the acceptable losses category. A few thousand die so millions more can be saved. Regrettable, but in the end.... the only thing that the Sisko did wrong was lying about it.
My character Tsin'xing
It seems Starfleet approved of his basic plan, to use espionage to bring the Romulans into the war, but he didn't tell them about the criminal parts; the forgery, murder and bribes that it entailed.
Here's a part of a Log by Sisko mid episode :
Q
Actually the numbers saved were in the Billions or more and this too proved that the highly moralistic Starfleet knew when to fold the Prime Directive when it was convenient (aka deemed necessary) .
Approving such a plan must not have been easy either, but just like with the Dominion, with the Iconians too we ran out of time to befriend them ... -- and just like with the Dominion, befriending us seems to have been never on the table from their point of view .
At best, they know of the original plan - a falsified isolinear chip implicating a Dominion plan for Romulus. Not a nice act, but also not something to court-martial him for, since Starfleet obviously considered this a justified war effort.
Of course, we will never know for sure, but there was an important Founder comment about the future of the Cardassian and Romulan people. The female Changling is not telling the whole truth here, considering that there were survivors still imprisoned by the Dominion at the time.:
But considering what happened to some other rebellious races, and what happened to Cardassia at the end of the war, I would actually be very surprised if she didn't mean it.
The only way to END the war with this weapon would be to fire it at something like... a single carefully selected iconian gateway or ship, or maybe a component, which would hopefully "reset" the Iconians to be losing without messing up too much else.
"He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
General Order 24 allows the eradication of a planet if said planet poses a clear and present danger to the Federation.
I didn't say that. Please attribute quotes to the people who actually said them.
Yeah, but the order was never executed, not even the two times it was actually given. Just because the legal possibilities are there if everything fails doesn't mean they do it on a regular basis. Even the whole Borg erradication thing cannot be traced further than an admiral's decision in Starfleet.
But maybe it's just that harping on the "grimdark desperation of everything's bad all the time" becomes really annoying at one point. In the spirit of the IP though the UFP should not partake in such actions.
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Look, you can argue here till you're blue in the face, but evidence shown in the TV shows show the Federation / Starfleet to be pro-genocide on at least two occasions ... , and please do not confuse official Starfleet policy with the decisions one captain makes.
- Case #1 :
The episode "Descent" in which Nechayev clearly tells Jean-Luc that his way of dealing with Hugh was more than just stupid.
As a senior flag officer she's speaking on behalf of Starfleet when she tells Jean-Luc that he is now under ORDERS to take ANY opportunity to get rid of the Borg once and for all.
-Case # 2 :
The DS9 ep. "Dogs of War"
In his quarters, Captain Sisko tells Odo that after considering the issue, the Federation Council decided not to give the Founders the cure to their disease. Odo thinks that the Federation is simply abetting genocide, but Sisko reminds Odo that while Section 31 might have been responsible for the virus it was the Founders that started the war, and that giving them the cure would only strengthen their hand, something unacceptable given that millions of people are risking their lives fighting the Dominion. Sisko then asks Odo to promise him he won't take matters into his own hands. Odo gives the Captain his word, but before he leaves notes that while the Federation is officially condemning Section 31's ethics and tactics they are more than happy to turn a blind eye when they need dirty work doing. Sisko doesn't like the facts very much, but can't deny the truth of Odo's statement.
* for fairness sake, I just wanted to point out that the text for "Chase #2" was pulled from Memory Alpha .
In short, baby Borg in cradles, thousands millions or billions of Romulans or Founders -- it's ALL FAIR GAME as long as the security of the Federation is achieved .
You may now proceed and tell me how the shows got it wrong and how you (or your character) got it right .