Hair and eyebrows for female Caitians

captainhunter1

Hi Dev Team!

This thread is a plea for just one simple thing for our Caitians - the basic, iconic M'Ress hair style.

It can be done...



Compare the above to the original:




I'm so sad for all the bald kitties right now.


P.S. All the other things in Ashkrik23's Caitain thread would be great too, but please at least include this ONE thing sooner than later.

Thanks!

ashkrik23

Better to have everything in one thread, not multiples.

angrytarg

I guess it's the same answer as with a lot of other stuff like canon uniforms, costumes or Tellarite starships: "Would be cool, we'd love to work on that. (But... no)".​​

jodarkrider

angrytarg wrote: »

I guess it's the same answer as with a lot of other stuff like canon uniforms, costumes or Tellarite starships: "Would be cool, we'd love to work on that. (But... no)".​​

It's sadenning, really. Customization could be a high-selling point, because features like this have been requested many times, over and over, some of them presented in a reasonable way; but we rarely get heard on that. I find it sad, because players would love to throw some Zen at the devs, if they see they're heard and their opinions matter. Ashkrik has been trying to get more customization for cats for ages, and we've yet to see even one done. I'd say, all we can do, is to try and voice our wishes, in as reasonable and as constructive manner as possible - to show the devs that we want more customization options, not less. While I don't have a cat (and won't have, likely), I'd still want these characters to get more options, as they have very little, and it's just... bad.

ashkrik23

They stopped responding on all the bugs going on with the cats and refuse to acknowledge that their "fix" for the major tail issue is still busted.
I don't expect anything at all.

jodarkrider

ashkrik23 wrote: »

They stopped responding on all the bugs going on with the cats and refuse to acknowledge that their "fix" for the major tail issue is still busted.
I don't expect anything at all.

I'm sorry to hear that. While your cause is not my cause - I can get behind you, for the understanding that this means so much for you, and many Caitians out there. More customizatins = better for us all. Don't give up hope, you, have my full support, as little as it may mean.

captainhunter1

Bump

themadprofessor

Not just the M'Ress hairstyle, but also different patterns for Caitians/Ferasans, such as stripes of varying size, spots, rosettes, and more coloration options.

Options for lion-esque manes, lynx sideburns, etc. would also be nice.

velvetsanity

The lack of hair and eyebrow options for caitians is why I've never made a caitian character

neocatstar

Now that STO has the TOS era expansion, would it be possible to add in the TAS style of Caitians for that type of toon? M'ress is canon, and had been in books and comics. Even the new JJ-verse movie had Caitians in it, they where nekos, but Caitians where around in Kirk's time. Im willing to remake James T Cat, if I can make it using the TOS choice.

angrytarg

neocatstar wrote: »

Now that STO has the TOS era expansion, would it be possible to add in the TAS style of Caitians for that type of toon? M'ress is canon, and had been in books and comics. Even the new JJ-verse movie had Caitians in it, they where nekos, but Caitians where around in Kirk's time. Im willing to remake James T Cat, if I can make it using the TOS choice.

"Star Trek" didn't feature Caitians. There were unnamed aliens that have literally nothing feline about them. An off-screen throwaway comment doesn't make canon.​​

psiameese

#TASforSTO

themadprofessor

angrytarg wrote: »

neocatstar wrote: »

Now that STO has the TOS era expansion, would it be possible to add in the TAS style of Caitians for that type of toon? M'ress is canon, and had been in books and comics. Even the new JJ-verse movie had Caitians in it, they where nekos, but Caitians where around in Kirk's time. Im willing to remake James T Cat, if I can make it using the TOS choice.

"Star Trek" didn't feature Caitians. There were unnamed aliens that have literally nothing feline about them. An off-screen throwaway comment doesn't make canon.​​

Given that the comment came from Damon Lindelof, who produced and co-wrote Star Trek: Into Darkness, and that it was said in an interview with Star Trek.com when specifically asked if the two women were Caitians, then you can assume that this is a "Word Of God" statement, and therefore canon.

The interview: http://www.startrek.com/article/exclusive-interview-damon-lindelof

Word of God definition in terms of canon: "A statement regarding some ambiguous or undefined aspect of a work, the Word of God comes from someone considered to be the ultimate authority, such as the creator, director, or producer. Such edicts can even go against events as were broadcast, due to someone making a mistake."

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themadprofessor

newplayerguy7 wrote: »

themadprofessor#9835 wrote: »

angrytarg wrote: »

neocatstar wrote: »

Now that STO has the TOS era expansion, would it be possible to add in the TAS style of Caitians for that type of toon? M'ress is canon, and had been in books and comics. Even the new JJ-verse movie had Caitians in it, they where nekos, but Caitians where around in Kirk's time. Im willing to remake James T Cat, if I can make it using the TOS choice.

"Star Trek" didn't feature Caitians. There were unnamed aliens that have literally nothing feline about them. An off-screen throwaway comment doesn't make canon.​​

Given that the comment came from Damon Lindelof, who produced and co-wrote Star Trek: Into Darkness, and that it was said in an interview with Star Trek.com when specifically asked if the two women were Caitians, then you can assume that this is a "Word Of God" statement, and therefore canon.

The interview: http://www.startrek.com/article/exclusive-interview-damon-lindelof

Word of God definition in terms of canon: "A statement regarding some ambiguous or undefined aspect of a work, the Word of God comes from someone considered to be the ultimate authority, such as the creator, director, or producer. Such edicts can even go against events as were broadcast, due to someone making a mistake."

Who cares?

That stuff is from the crappy JJ-verse. Everything there is just wrong.

Different? Yes.

Wrong? No.

I mean, the Prime Universe has it's share of stinkers, such as Threshold, Way of the Warrior, or the entirety of Star Trek V, but that doesn't make the entire thing bad.

Maybe you haven't been hit with a clue-by-four yet, so here's some knowledge for you:

Things very deliberately do not play out in the JJ-verse the way they did in the Prime verse. Why? It's an alternate universe, no more right or wrong than the Mirror Universe. Temporal shenanigans caused by a grief-stricken dude in a hyper-advanced spaceship with a super-science liquid on board caused events to happen differently. It's just a different universe. If it were just an abberation to the Prime Timeline, Temporal Investigations would have gone back and corrected it to restore the timeline. Given that the Prime Timeline and the Kelvin Timeline coexist and that travel between the two is possible and has actually happened, it's a foregone conclusion that a new universe was created.

Because it's a new universe, the events of the Prime Universe do not matter, as things now progress at their own pace, with entirely different outcomes available.

From a viewership perspective, that's a smart way to do it, as you're not sitting through the movies thinking "I know exactly how this will end because it ended this way in the Prime Universe."

You have room to explore, expand, head into knew territories. You don't want to travel down the exact same road and deal with the exact same sights.

Honestly, your commentary reminds me of people who complained about Episode VII because it didn't follow all the EU source material.

artan42

themadprofessor#9835 wrote: »

angrytarg wrote: »

neocatstar wrote: »

Now that STO has the TOS era expansion, would it be possible to add in the TAS style of Caitians for that type of toon? M'ress is canon, and had been in books and comics. Even the new JJ-verse movie had Caitians in it, they where nekos, but Caitians where around in Kirk's time. Im willing to remake James T Cat, if I can make it using the TOS choice.

"Star Trek" didn't feature Caitians. There were unnamed aliens that have literally nothing feline about them. An off-screen throwaway comment doesn't make canon.​​

Given that the comment came from Damon Lindelof, who produced and co-wrote Star Trek: Into Darkness, and that it was said in an interview with Star Trek.com when specifically asked if the two women were Caitians, then you can assume that this is a "Word Of God" statement, and therefore canon.

The interview: http://www.startrek.com/article/exclusive-interview-damon-lindelof

Word of God definition in terms of canon: "A statement regarding some ambiguous or undefined aspect of a work, the Word of God comes from someone considered to be the ultimate authority, such as the creator, director, or producer. Such edicts can even go against events as were broadcast, due to someone making a mistake."

Star Trek Canon does not wit by word of god. It works by what appears on-screen. That has been confirmed by CBS. Also Lindelof was not involved in make up, casting, or any part of the script involving the non-cat aliens. His word of god would be meaningless anyway in that context. The more important word of god would be that of the department who made the makeup. We have behind the scenes pictures and concept art of them. The words 'Caitian', 'cat', or 'Feline' are not used in relation only 'Alien Twins'. So that are not Catians either canonically or contextually.

---

The Kelvin Timeline is also a alternate timeline not an alternate universe. It is exactly like Yesterday's Enterprise or Parallels where the change only happens from the point of the change. Everything prior to the attack on the Kelvin remains the same as it did before Nero apeared. The changes start from that point only.

themadprofessor

artan42 wrote: »

The Kelvin Timeline is also a alternate timeline not an alternate universe. It is exactly like Yesterday's Enterprise or Parallels where the change only happens from the point of the change. Everything prior to the attack on the Kelvin remains the same as it did before Nero apeared. The changes start from that point only.

Alternate Timeline and Alternate Universe are interchangeable phrases. That's the entire theory behind alternate universes. Something happened differently there than it did here, causing a snowball effect as time progressed. One could argue that the Mirror Universe is an alternate timeline where everything was the same in terms of human evolution until the point that humanity, as a whole, decided to embrace its worse nature versus it's better nature.

angrytarg

themadprofessor#9835 wrote: »

Given that the comment came from Damon Lindelof, who produced and co-wrote Star Trek: Into Darkness, (...)

This is, a artan pointed out, irrelevant for Str Trek and always has been. Further, Sebastian Meyer - wo designed them - shows in a study of his works that there was zero intention to even make them remotely feline. To even ask wether or not these two were supposed to be caitian simply because they have (primate) tails is stupendous to begin with, Lidelof's interview also shows that he has no idea or cares about the question on prtcular. Roddenberry himself stated a lot of things that didn't make canon, there is no hint that Lindelof can pull it off.

artan42

themadprofessor#9835 wrote: »

artan42 wrote: »

The Kelvin Timeline is also a alternate timeline not an alternate universe. It is exactly like Yesterday's Enterprise or Parallels where the change only happens from the point of the change. Everything prior to the attack on the Kelvin remains the same as it did before Nero apeared. The changes start from that point only.

Alternate Timeline and Alternate Universe are interchangeable phrases. That's the entire theory behind alternate universes. Something happened differently there than it did here, causing a snowball effect as time progressed. One could argue that the Mirror Universe is an alternate timeline where everything was the same in terms of human evolution until the point that humanity, as a whole, decided to embrace its worse nature versus it's better nature.

Though the names aren't really the point, the point is that the changes happened from the attack on the Kelvin and anything afterwards, not before. That is the reason the reality is officially called the Kelvin Timeline.​​

themadprofessor

artan42 wrote: »

themadprofessor#9835 wrote: »

artan42 wrote: »

The Kelvin Timeline is also a alternate timeline not an alternate universe. It is exactly like Yesterday's Enterprise or Parallels where the change only happens from the point of the change. Everything prior to the attack on the Kelvin remains the same as it did before Nero apeared. The changes start from that point only.

Alternate Timeline and Alternate Universe are interchangeable phrases. That's the entire theory behind alternate universes. Something happened differently there than it did here, causing a snowball effect as time progressed. One could argue that the Mirror Universe is an alternate timeline where everything was the same in terms of human evolution until the point that humanity, as a whole, decided to embrace its worse nature versus it's better nature.

Though the names aren't really the point, the point is that the changes happened from the attack on the Kelvin and anything afterwards, not before. That is the reason the reality is officially called the Kelvin Timeline.​​

I am well aware of that. However, what they are named is important. If you alter the timeline (or if something different happens that changes everything, such as the different Enterprise D's seen in Parallels, you do, in fact, create an alternate universe that runs parallel with our own. Now the difference in Star Trek seems to lie in the magnitude of the change. If it's a relatively minor change that preserves the timeline (such as Sisko and crew traveling back to prevent the assassination of Kirk and interacting with the Enterprise crew), nobody's gonna care. If it's a larger one that could affect the Prime Universe (such as Seven of Nine preventing Evil Braxton from blowing up Voyager before she launches), then Temporal Investigations gets involved and works to stop it. Then there's the big daddies (and with these, I subscribe to the Dr. Who idea of fixed points in time that cannot be altered as well as time itself having a preventative system in place). Attempting to alter the timeline in such a way that would prevent certain events from happening (such as the Narada going back and blowing up the Kelvin, inadvertently coming close to killing Jim Kirk in the womb, results in the timeline fracturing at that point, allowing for the original universe to continue unmolested while still allowing for the new timeline to proceed, as Jim Kirk is one of those fixed points, a person whose very existence is crucial to history.

artan42

themadprofessor#9835 wrote: »

artan42 wrote: »

themadprofessor#9835 wrote: »

artan42 wrote: »

The Kelvin Timeline is also a alternate timeline not an alternate universe. It is exactly like Yesterday's Enterprise or Parallels where the change only happens from the point of the change. Everything prior to the attack on the Kelvin remains the same as it did before Nero apeared. The changes start from that point only.

Alternate Timeline and Alternate Universe are interchangeable phrases. That's the entire theory behind alternate universes. Something happened differently there than it did here, causing a snowball effect as time progressed. One could argue that the Mirror Universe is an alternate timeline where everything was the same in terms of human evolution until the point that humanity, as a whole, decided to embrace its worse nature versus it's better nature.

Though the names aren't really the point, the point is that the changes happened from the attack on the Kelvin and anything afterwards, not before. That is the reason the reality is officially called the Kelvin Timeline.

I am well aware of that. However, what they are named is important. If you alter the timeline (or if something different happens that changes everything, such as the different Enterprise D's seen in Parallels, you do, in fact, create an alternate universe that runs parallel with our own. Now the difference in Star Trek seems to lie in the magnitude of the change. If it's a relatively minor change that preserves the timeline (such as Sisko and crew traveling back to prevent the assassination of Kirk and interacting with the Enterprise crew), nobody's gonna care. If it's a larger one that could affect the Prime Universe (such as Seven of Nine preventing Evil Braxton from blowing up Voyager before she launches), then Temporal Investigations gets involved and works to stop it. Then there's the big daddies (and with these, I subscribe to the Dr. Who idea of fixed points in time that cannot be altered as well as time itself having a preventative system in place). Attempting to alter the timeline in such a way that would prevent certain events from happening (such as the Narada going back and blowing up the Kelvin, inadvertently coming close to killing Jim Kirk in the womb, results in the timeline fracturing at that point, allowing for the original universe to continue unmolested while still allowing for the new timeline to proceed, as Jim Kirk is one of those fixed points, a person whose very existence is crucial to history.

Time travel in ST works in one of two ways, it either creates an alternate timeline from the point of change (i.e. the KT, AGT, Parallels, YE etc.) or it dosn't (FC, TVH) and the future of the main timeline is changed. Those alternate timeline can end (as most of them do) or continue (such as the KT) but the Department of Temporal Investigations has nothing to do with any of them. They appeared in one single episode as a narrative device and aren't even mentioned by the likes of Daniels in ENT.

If there were consistent logic in ST then Kirk bringing back whales in TVH should have created a alternate timeline from that point on where the prime timeline continues with the destruction of Earth by the Whale Probe whilst the Whale Timeline branches off from it. This hypothetical destruction of Earth would be a the largest possible change in terms of the potential future of the Galaxy, far eclipsing the Kelvin Timeline, however TVH remains an example of where an alternate timeline is not created.

An alternate universe dosn't have a point of divergence from the main one, it's a whole other universe, which is what the Mirror one appears to be with no apparent splitting from the Prime one as of at least 1700.

Admittedly there is no canon context for the differences between 'timeline', 'reality', or 'universe' and any and all rules are dependent on which writer is writing which episode, but going by the physics of the KT and MU a workable difference can be established.​​

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pweistheworst

I don't care about whether the Animated Series should or shouldn't be considered part of the canon ... but I absolutely want the classic M'Ress hair style added to the game.

Heck, I want more long hair styles for ALL female characters of ALL races.

I know this boils down the players wanting to play "space Barbie" and I don't care if some players think it's lame to spend time crafting unique looks for characters and bridge officers. If you don't want to do that then just use generic characters and costumes. However, there are plenty of other players who enjoy wasting our time creating characters and BOffs that look good.

artan42

newplayerguy7 wrote: »

Thread ----> https://youtube.com/watch?v=YNMzGuRBls4

The OP must feel like the guy at 0:28.

I don't get it, way part of an in-depth discussion about time travel is off topic in a thread about hairstyles?​​

neocatstar

Do you think the reason they never added canon Caitians is they arent able to do so?

angrytarg

neocatstar wrote: »

Do you think the reason they never added canon Caitians is they arent able to do so?

It's not that they aren't able to do so but that it's too much work for too little pay off, and I don't mean that as a rant or anything. In my opinion they have the basic style down, the cartoon caitians in a mildly more "realistic" style (although STO is very cartoony still). What they had to make is hairstyles, accessories and clothing that fits the canon/more feline style of "real" caitians, as in footwear and bottoms for digitigrade legs, tail and paws, hairstyles that don't clip too badly with the different head shape and ears and so on. This is quite a lot of work as anyone can tell you who tried to mod something for let's say Oblivion or Skyrim's beast races - out of the box Bethesda decided to make them plantigrade from Oblivion onward simply so they don't have to design clothing and armour that specifically fits the best races anatomy any more. And when a big AAA studio like Bethesda doesn't want to invest in this kind of work you can imagine how much hussle it is and that Cryptic couldn't do it. In the mentioned games, modders have put the digitigrade beastraces back and that required every. single. item. in the game to be customized to fit them, or invisible placeholders removing most of the visible clothing. In STO specifically that would be a lot of work for a single (or rather two) race choices that are in the grand scheme of things not all that popular. It's the same reason why Tellarites will never have cloven hooved claws on either hands or feet (while they did get regular human hands post TOS, we never saw their feet and I imagine them having hooves. And I personally think they should have hands at least like Grazerites in DS9 did, if not directly take the TOS make-up test as a base).

Unless some dev really is invested to the degree of working on this in their spare time there is little chance this will ever happen.​​

artan42

It's possible there's some rights related to TAS. We know the entirety of 'The Slaver Weapon' is off limits due to one of the Devs saying so on Reddit after the release of the first Lockbox. But TAS isn't mentioned in the Foundry TOS. I don't know I it is in the main games TOS either.

I don't see why it should be the case though as CBS owns the shows and films (except the KT ones) in their entierty.

neocatstar

artan42 wrote: »

It's possible there's some rights related to TAS. We know the entirety of 'The Slaver Weapon' is off limits due to one of the Devs saying so on Reddit after the release of the first Lockbox. But TAS isn't mentioned in the Foundry TOS. I don't know I it is in the main games TOS either.

I don't see why it should be the case though as CBS owns the shows and films (except the KT ones) in their entierty.

could it be they are trying to bury it like Lucas did his xmas special? The latest franchise caitians are nekos, maybe they are going to add in the neko variation and do away with bipedal version (just throwing out guesses)

but even then there would be more hair options...but they would be pawless

angrytarg

neocatstar wrote: »

(...) The latest franchise caitians are nekos, (...)

No, they are not. I would have expected you noticing that there is literally nothing feline about them.

Concept art:





Actual movie version:



M'Ress:




Feline alien in TUC:



Could we please stop pretending those things have anything in common? The interview piece all people are crazy about is someone having nothing to do with the design process replying with a throw away line about something he obviously didn't know and care about.​​

artan42

neocatstar wrote: »

artan42 wrote: »

It's possible there's some rights related to TAS. We know the entirety of 'The Slaver Weapon' is off limits due to one of the Devs saying so on Reddit after the release of the first Lockbox. But TAS isn't mentioned in the Foundry TOS. I don't know I it is in the main games TOS either.

I don't see why it should be the case though as CBS owns the shows and films (except the KT ones) in their entierty.

could it be they are trying to bury it like Lucas did his xmas special? The latest franchise caitians are nekos, maybe they are going to add in the neko variation and do away with bipedal version (just throwing out guesses)

but even then there would be more hair options...but they would be pawless

Who's 'they'? Cryptic? CBS? Paramount? What latest versions? The last Caitians seen onscreen were in the TOS films and they don't look 'nekos', whatever that means.

@angrytarg The finalised makeup in the light. Their tails also have those little hollows (like the stuff on their necks). There's clearly not a single cat like thing about their design in the slightest.

​​

neocatstar

Neko = ears/tail of a cat, the rest is human.



The scene kinda went by fast, i noticed the tails but kinda kept looking away during it, i didnt know they where supposed to be caitians at the time.

They = the decision makers for the Trek franchise.

They drew M'ress to look cute, the shaggy one to like me when i get up monday morning, and the other two like hired assassins that would be able to trick/take down Rygel (farscape)

Im honestly NOT trying to say the new ones are better, im just trying to figure out what they've been doing, some of my friends who also play sto have been debating where they will take this now that STO has add the alt JJ-verse Enterprise to the new episodes. I was expecting they would eventually change the caitians to bipdals once they got going and they where well off in funding....like the other changes to improve the games storylines. Something like this guy I made in another game:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQHlw5YlWxU