(...)
Give this Targ a cookie! Or whatever Targs eat....
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Ooh, I get the name now . Why have I only just got that? :rolleyes:
heh probably because "proto-goth" isnt exactly a widely used term and somewhat redundant, still it makes sense.
basically a person becoming a goth but not quite there yet
No, a "Proto-Goth" is a person who was "Gothic" before it had a name. Like the first version of Morticia Addams on film (the one played by Carolyn Jones in the TV series back in the '60s, which was about 20 years before anyone started using the term "Goth" or "Gothic" to describe that style and attitude). Proto-Goths are not quite so defined as Goths, but are instead freer (both in style and attitude).
No, a "Proto-Goth" is a person who was "Gothic" before it had a name. Like the first version of Morticia Addams on film (the one played by Carolyn Jones in the TV series back in the '60s, which was about 20 years before anyone started using the term "Goth" or "Gothic" to describe that style and attitude). Proto-Goths are not quite so defined as Goths, but are instead freer (both in style and attitude).
Hrmm, thing is - some would say that the late 70s into the 80s was neo-goth, with the 60s being proto-goth, and oddly there actually having never been goth. Course, with what happened going into the 90s being yet another form of neo-goth, it kind of falls back to the late 70s/early 80s being called goth with the 60s/70s being proto-goth. Course, some folks consider the late 70s/early 80s folks as being proto-goths for what came later.
In the end, it's the typical adoption argument as well as simple style/attitude argument. You could grab somebody from the 70s, from the 80s, from the 90s, and since...and well...they'd likely argue...pointing to such and such being a poseur or simply having no clue as to what they were actually doing.
The whole discussion is kind of trippy, imho.
edit: Know what's fun? Get some Darkwave folks together with some Cybergoths and Gothabillies...
No, a "Proto-Goth" is a person who was "Gothic" before it had a name. Like the first version of Morticia Addams on film (the one played by Carolyn Jones in the TV series back in the '60s, which was about 20 years before anyone started using the term "Goth" or "Gothic" to describe that style and attitude). Proto-Goths are not quite so defined as Goths, but are instead freer (both in style and attitude).
Hrmm, thing is - some would say that the late 70s into the 80s was neo-goth, with the 60s being proto-goth, and oddly there actually having never been goth. Course, with what happened going into the 90s being yet another form of neo-goth, it kind of falls back to the late 70s/early 80s being called goth with the 60s/70s being proto-goth. Course, some folks consider the late 70s/early 80s folks as being proto-goths for what came later.
In the end, it's the typical adoption argument as well as simple style/attitude argument. You could grab somebody from the 70s, from the 80s, from the 90s, and since...and well...they'd likely argue...pointing to such and such being a poseur or simply having no clue as to what they were actually doing.
The whole discussion is kind of trippy, imho.
edit: Know what's fun? Get some Darkwave folks together with some Cybergoths and Gothabillies...
... Are we really going to do this here?
The style and attitude now generally referred to as "Gothic" first began to be called that in the mid to late 80s. The term "Proto-Goth" was coined by Goths in the early to mid 90s to refer to people like myself, who never went full on "I'm going to dress exclusively in this manner and/or have this particular outlook on life," but had been for some time prior already "into" much of the trappings, literature, cinema, and television series which had come to characterize the subculture then known as "Gothic" (I watched the original "Dark Shadows" when it was still new; I had a life-sized poster of Bela Lugosi on my bedroom wall by the early '70s; I had Poe and Hawthorne among my personal library by the mid 70s; I was the typical Vamp-Goth long before anyone would have called me "Gothic," because the name simply was not used in that manner back then). While the name certainly hearkens back to the literary genres of Gothic Romance and Gothic Horror, the subculture itself was never referred to as such until the mid to late 80s. I want to say the first usage of "Gothic" in reference to the subculture was in 1986/1987 or so, but it may have been a bit earlier or later; the term had not found its way into popular consciousness as a descriptor for the subculture until 1987 at the earliest (and I want to say more like 1989). There have been all sorts of anachronistic attempts to discuss earlier subcultural expressions in these terms (even the term "Proto-Goth" is an example of this), but nobody at the time actually used "Gothic" in this manner. I was there.
Can we do this in some other thread in some other forum? Or even in PMs? This thread is supposed to be about the new color palette for ship decorations, and whether or not allowing players to have more liberty is going to result in water turning to blood, swarms of locusts arriving to devour our crops, fire and brimstone raining from the sky, etc.
You brought it up...though, unless your intent is humor - you should probably stop posting about it.
It's like I said in the previous post, it's something folks have argued about for ages - what, nearly 40 years or more at this point, eh?
By the way, suggesting something not be spoken about here - then slipping in your thoughts again - while finishing up by suggesting that it not be spoken about here again...well, yeah, it's one of those things that's just kind of trippy in how it comes across. Just saying.
You brought it up...though, unless your intent is humor - you should probably stop posting about it.
Actually, I merely mentioned it, as an aside, in the context of discussing shades and colors (and I'll include the full post below for reference as to how marginal it was; a single use of the term in a single parenthetical comment out of a post consisting of four or five sentences discussing shades and colors). When someone else attempted an explanation, I corrected them. "Proto-" in this context is used in the same manner as it is used in linguistics, to refer to the forerunner of a language (e.g., Proto-Germanic was the language from which the various Germanic languages descended, after it had become differentiated from Proto-Indo-European). A "Proto-Goth," then, would be a forerunner of the contemporary "Gothic" subculture.
But my point in mentioning it at all was to note that, even if it were true that Goths wear only black (and it's not true for Goths, and even less true for Proto-Goths), a girly girl, whether she be Gothic (or Proto-Gothic) or not (and yes, it is entirely possible to be both girly and Gothic, or Proto-Gothic), will generally understand more about shades and colors than most other people. And the reason I made the statement was not to derail or hijack the thread, but to reply to a snarky attempt on your part to dismiss what I said earlier about pink on Fed starships which I saw (or more precisely, which were pointed out to me) in the Sol system 2 years ago. They were not merely soft pink, but had a mix of vibrant pink and light purple (I'd say lilac, but it was 2 years ago and my memory of an isolated incident from that long ago which was not particularly earth-shattering to me may not be as accurate as it would be had the incident instead occurred two weeks ago, and/or have been something I found remarkable). The entire reason I brought that up was to say "It's not like people haven't been able to put pink on starships for at least 2 years, so all this talk of disaster based on an assumption that pink is going to be some new option for starships is nonsensical." And frankly, even if someone wanted to put hot pink on their starship, what would the problem with that be? Is it somehow more jarring to the eyes than, say, neon green? Why pick on pink in the first place? Why not lime, imperial blue, or lemon glacier? Are any of those approved standard colors for Starfleet vessels? And so what if they're not? When he was told to paint his aircraft with the lozenge camouflage pattern, Manfred von Richthofen blatantly defied the order; previous attempts to use camouflage had proven ineffective, and der rote Kampfflieger wanted his plane to stand out to allies and enemies, rather than be lost in drab and pointless camouflage. Admiral Quinn can issue all the orders he likes; his subordinate officers may or may not obey, and this streak of independence is not exclusive to the Federation's Starfleet. The Tal'Shiar and/or Imperial Romulan Star Command might not be too fond of it, but neither the RSE nor the Tal'Shiar are playable factions (and I think that's grand).
Now, are we going to start discussing the pros and cons of allowing a player faction of RSe and/or Tal'Shiar here, too, simply because of a brief and marginal reference to them in the context of this post? Let's not. We have our own forum for that debate, as you well know, and, as you also well know, that debate has been done to death in that forum as well as General Discussion long since. But I do wonder if my viewpoint in that debate has something to do with your eagerness to be insulting to me here in this thread.
The original post from which this discussion (briefly, I hope) mutated into a discussion of Goths and Proto-Goths:
I can ramble on for an extended period of time about colors and shades. Just ask my fleet personnel why they avoid saying "purple" around me so as to not set me off on a long dissertation about why purple is not a color and why violet is not purple, followed by the names of shades of purple and shades of violet, with links to examples ...
Yeah, that really happened. More than once. So don't be presumptuous enough to rewrite what I said before you take the time to figure out who you're talking to (hint: a girly girl, even if she be a "Proto-Goth," is likely to know more than the average bear about colors and shades).
Now can we get back on topic, or are you going to try to carry this on further? This thread is not about subcultures, nor is it about you, nor is it about me (and it's certainly not about a moot debate in another subforum).
Obsidian, Onyx, Midnight, Lost Soul, Rolling Blackout, Sleeping Panther, and Void by Armani
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Obsidian, Onyx, Midnight, Lost Soul, Rolling Blackout, Sleeping Panther, and Void by Armani
Would be interesting if they added some additional matte/gloss options to some of the colors. I remember that was an annoyance with the character tailor for toons at one point - was with the clubwear, no? There was a lack of both matte/gloss options for the pieces, so you couldn't match stuff up - meh, not really into the whole Space Barbie thing, but that was kind of annoying.
Comments
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
No, a "Proto-Goth" is a person who was "Gothic" before it had a name. Like the first version of Morticia Addams on film (the one played by Carolyn Jones in the TV series back in the '60s, which was about 20 years before anyone started using the term "Goth" or "Gothic" to describe that style and attitude). Proto-Goths are not quite so defined as Goths, but are instead freer (both in style and attitude).
Hrmm, thing is - some would say that the late 70s into the 80s was neo-goth, with the 60s being proto-goth, and oddly there actually having never been goth. Course, with what happened going into the 90s being yet another form of neo-goth, it kind of falls back to the late 70s/early 80s being called goth with the 60s/70s being proto-goth. Course, some folks consider the late 70s/early 80s folks as being proto-goths for what came later.
In the end, it's the typical adoption argument as well as simple style/attitude argument. You could grab somebody from the 70s, from the 80s, from the 90s, and since...and well...they'd likely argue...pointing to such and such being a poseur or simply having no clue as to what they were actually doing.
The whole discussion is kind of trippy, imho.
edit: Know what's fun? Get some Darkwave folks together with some Cybergoths and Gothabillies...
... Are we really going to do this here?
The style and attitude now generally referred to as "Gothic" first began to be called that in the mid to late 80s. The term "Proto-Goth" was coined by Goths in the early to mid 90s to refer to people like myself, who never went full on "I'm going to dress exclusively in this manner and/or have this particular outlook on life," but had been for some time prior already "into" much of the trappings, literature, cinema, and television series which had come to characterize the subculture then known as "Gothic" (I watched the original "Dark Shadows" when it was still new; I had a life-sized poster of Bela Lugosi on my bedroom wall by the early '70s; I had Poe and Hawthorne among my personal library by the mid 70s; I was the typical Vamp-Goth long before anyone would have called me "Gothic," because the name simply was not used in that manner back then). While the name certainly hearkens back to the literary genres of Gothic Romance and Gothic Horror, the subculture itself was never referred to as such until the mid to late 80s. I want to say the first usage of "Gothic" in reference to the subculture was in 1986/1987 or so, but it may have been a bit earlier or later; the term had not found its way into popular consciousness as a descriptor for the subculture until 1987 at the earliest (and I want to say more like 1989). There have been all sorts of anachronistic attempts to discuss earlier subcultural expressions in these terms (even the term "Proto-Goth" is an example of this), but nobody at the time actually used "Gothic" in this manner. I was there.
Can we do this in some other thread in some other forum? Or even in PMs? This thread is supposed to be about the new color palette for ship decorations, and whether or not allowing players to have more liberty is going to result in water turning to blood, swarms of locusts arriving to devour our crops, fire and brimstone raining from the sky, etc.
You brought it up...though, unless your intent is humor - you should probably stop posting about it.
It's like I said in the previous post, it's something folks have argued about for ages - what, nearly 40 years or more at this point, eh?
By the way, suggesting something not be spoken about here - then slipping in your thoughts again - while finishing up by suggesting that it not be spoken about here again...well, yeah, it's one of those things that's just kind of trippy in how it comes across. Just saying.
Actually, I merely mentioned it, as an aside, in the context of discussing shades and colors (and I'll include the full post below for reference as to how marginal it was; a single use of the term in a single parenthetical comment out of a post consisting of four or five sentences discussing shades and colors). When someone else attempted an explanation, I corrected them. "Proto-" in this context is used in the same manner as it is used in linguistics, to refer to the forerunner of a language (e.g., Proto-Germanic was the language from which the various Germanic languages descended, after it had become differentiated from Proto-Indo-European). A "Proto-Goth," then, would be a forerunner of the contemporary "Gothic" subculture.
But my point in mentioning it at all was to note that, even if it were true that Goths wear only black (and it's not true for Goths, and even less true for Proto-Goths), a girly girl, whether she be Gothic (or Proto-Gothic) or not (and yes, it is entirely possible to be both girly and Gothic, or Proto-Gothic), will generally understand more about shades and colors than most other people. And the reason I made the statement was not to derail or hijack the thread, but to reply to a snarky attempt on your part to dismiss what I said earlier about pink on Fed starships which I saw (or more precisely, which were pointed out to me) in the Sol system 2 years ago. They were not merely soft pink, but had a mix of vibrant pink and light purple (I'd say lilac, but it was 2 years ago and my memory of an isolated incident from that long ago which was not particularly earth-shattering to me may not be as accurate as it would be had the incident instead occurred two weeks ago, and/or have been something I found remarkable). The entire reason I brought that up was to say "It's not like people haven't been able to put pink on starships for at least 2 years, so all this talk of disaster based on an assumption that pink is going to be some new option for starships is nonsensical." And frankly, even if someone wanted to put hot pink on their starship, what would the problem with that be? Is it somehow more jarring to the eyes than, say, neon green? Why pick on pink in the first place? Why not lime, imperial blue, or lemon glacier? Are any of those approved standard colors for Starfleet vessels? And so what if they're not? When he was told to paint his aircraft with the lozenge camouflage pattern, Manfred von Richthofen blatantly defied the order; previous attempts to use camouflage had proven ineffective, and der rote Kampfflieger wanted his plane to stand out to allies and enemies, rather than be lost in drab and pointless camouflage. Admiral Quinn can issue all the orders he likes; his subordinate officers may or may not obey, and this streak of independence is not exclusive to the Federation's Starfleet. The Tal'Shiar and/or Imperial Romulan Star Command might not be too fond of it, but neither the RSE nor the Tal'Shiar are playable factions (and I think that's grand).
Now, are we going to start discussing the pros and cons of allowing a player faction of RSe and/or Tal'Shiar here, too, simply because of a brief and marginal reference to them in the context of this post? Let's not. We have our own forum for that debate, as you well know, and, as you also well know, that debate has been done to death in that forum as well as General Discussion long since. But I do wonder if my viewpoint in that debate has something to do with your eagerness to be insulting to me here in this thread.
The original post from which this discussion (briefly, I hope) mutated into a discussion of Goths and Proto-Goths:
Now can we get back on topic, or are you going to try to carry this on further? This thread is not about subcultures, nor is it about you, nor is it about me (and it's certainly not about a moot debate in another subforum).
Black comes in many variations, it seems.
Obsidian, Onyx, Midnight, Lost Soul, Rolling Blackout, Sleeping Panther, and Void by Armani
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Would be interesting if they added some additional matte/gloss options to some of the colors. I remember that was an annoyance with the character tailor for toons at one point - was with the clubwear, no? There was a lack of both matte/gloss options for the pieces, so you couldn't match stuff up - meh, not really into the whole Space Barbie thing, but that was kind of annoying.
Don't forget jet, charcoal, black olive, rich black, and warm black (to name a few more).