iconians is trying to start up the idea that the republic is a weakness and that just because a leader like d'tan is trying to walk the path of peace, iconians seems to mistake one sword for another and call it a butter knife instead.
the republic isnt weak, and they have considerable power at their fingertips, but power must be used responsibily and correctly. if diplomacy fails to work and the only option remains is to die, then would you fight your own corner in the end or roll over and push up daisies?
sometimes diplomacy and peace can head off a conflict before it begins, it can create alliances, trade deals and other type of deals, it can extend power and influence. thats another sword, the one that iconians thinks is a butter knife.
d'tan wants to show the vulcans that reunification is possible, but the sheer timing of the iconian invasion over half a year later will have put those plans on hold.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Speak for yourself! The threat of murder is a great way to get results. Attrition breeds efficiency!
...
A few undesirables did, but sure... blame the whole...
Not in this case, no. The ability to slit the throats of your opponents does not guarantee a complimentary ability to lead an Empire. The system as a whole became flawed. Leaders would rise and fall not on their prowess as a leader or their ability to command - they'd simply kill their opponent, and sit pretty on the throne.
The leaders of late did nothing but claim power, and then drink while laughing about how awesome it was that they took power. The leaders who took charge were just as complacent as those who they replaced, if not moreso.
The inverse could be true. If the Republic joined forces with the Tal'Shiar, there'd be a lot less dead civilians and if all Romulans properly obeyed the orders of Empress Sela, then perhaps we'd have had a military so powerful that we would rightly be feared by the Iconians instead of regarded as a nuisance.
There'd be more dead, and sacrificed to the Elachi. Need I remind you that the Tal'Shiar decided it'd be jolly good to play errand boy to them?
The Tal'Shiar are the ultimate lapdogs. I find it amusing that you are so critical of the Republic somehow being submissive, but you're all-in for the Tal'Shiar who are explicitly at the service of the Iconians.
Personally, I'd rather follow Sela who knows how to get things done instead of Admiral Kererek who doesn't even think we can win.
I present to you, Exhibit A: all of TNG. Sela is a failure. She achieved nothing. Even in STO she tried to attack Vulcan, and failed miserably. After 'seizing control' of a fragile Empire, she lost her handle on the Tal'Shiar, and let an entire new faction slip from her grasp and take upwards of half of Romulan space. That's about all she managed to achieve. It was under her watch that the once-united Empire split into three completely separate entities. No leader of the RSE has ever failed so totally and miserably. Her only claim to fame as Empress is that she was the last Empress.
Did she escape? Sure she did, but for what, and to where? She has nowhere to go, no place to call home. She's lost everything - and she admits so in her lovely letters to the player. No one will support her, no one will listen to her, no one will welcome her. The player is one of the very few people left that Sela knows who doesn't immediately hit "delete" when they receive a message from her.
She's done nothing to show that she actually cares about the health of the Empire. All she wanted was a throne to sit on, because she didn't get the Pretty Princess Castle she begged her parents for when she was young. And now her throne is meaningless, because the RSE crumbled into pieces within a couple years of her taking power.
Tiaru Jarok is really just one of many poster children for the Republic Lapdogs. She wasn't going to take and hold the Solanae sphere. She was just going to be a good little dog and fetch her master's ball and bring it back to them.
Only the ball is the size of a Dyson Sphere. :P
And that's not impressive? She sent a hearty "bugger off" to the Feds and Klingons and claimed the Sphere. Solanae is Republic territory. Starfleet and the KDF are there because of the alliance - if that alliance ends, then the codes to the Solanae gate will most definitely be changed.
Everything you describe is the Republic being submissive pets to the Federation and Empire instead of doing things their own way and telling the other two factions to get over it.
I have yet to see the Republic be submissive. We are at the table as a separate power during all negotiations, we field our own fleet, we have our home, we have our holdings, we have our allies, and so forth.
If being 'submissive' is consolidating power and territory at the expense of your enemy, or negotiating peace to replace centuries of hatred... well, I think I need some leather and fuzzy handcuffs
iconians is trying to start up the idea that the republic is a weakness and that just because a leader like d'tan is trying to walk the path of peace, iconians seems to mistake one sword for another and call it a butter knife instead.
A butter knife is all we were left with after Sela. But then we took that knife, used it to cut out our piece of Romulan space, and seal an alliance of honour with blood :cool:
There's more than enough steel left for whatever's next.
What is with the epic hatred the Iconians have for the Romulans? They've set off a supernova, and constantly abduct Romulans then even hit their new homeworld in a brutal attempt to conquer the planet.
It's like... 'Okay, the Romulans are down, let's not pay much mind to the trillions of Federation citizen elsewhere... oh and send a token ground force to keep the Klingons busy while we beat the TRIBBLE out of the Rommies."
Honestly... the Federation has the largest numbers and short of the Dominion, can yield a large number of troops. They have 150 member worlds (not counting colonies), so they have easily over a trillion citizens, meaning they can field an armed force well in the low 100 billions... yet they keep hitting the Romulans, who aren't doing too well.
Maybe they don't consider the Federation a credible threat?
they can destroy the Romulans and Klingons and the Federation will still negotiate terms with them.
Not in this case, no. The ability to slit the throats of your opponents does not guarantee a complimentary ability to lead an Empire. The system as a whole became flawed. Leaders would rise and fall not on their prowess as a leader or their ability to command - they'd simply kill their opponent, and sit pretty on the throne.
I'd say it's telling they're capable of slitting the throats of their opponents. It's not a perfect system, but it worked pretty well for a while.
The leaders of late did nothing but claim power, and then drink while laughing about how awesome it was that they took power. The leaders who took charge were just as complacent as those who they replaced, if not moreso.
And once they were removed, there was the potential for new leaders to come to power. Instead, they gave up their power instead of seizing it. Completely wasteful.
There'd be more dead, and sacrificed to the Elachi. Need I remind you that the Tal'Shiar decided it'd be jolly good to play errand boy to them?
The Elachi could be manipulated. Just like with the Borg technology, the RSE has the power to dominate any species it comes across, if we are united. If we fail to unite as one, then we lose our ability to dominate.
The Elachi are really just an example of how fracturing the Romulans into the Empire and Republic lead to misery on both sides.
The Tal'Shiar are the ultimate lapdogs. I find it amusing that you are so critical of the Republic somehow being submissive, but you're all-in for the Tal'Shiar who are explicitly at the service of the Iconians.
I like to think of myself more like Ash from the Alien movie.
I admire their purity. A survivor... unclouded by conscience, remorse, or delusions of morality.
In time, I think the Romulans could have even subjugated the Iconians and adapted their technology for themselves -- unfortunately, it does not seem like that was meant to be. Another reason the Iconians felt it was important to divide and conquer the Romulans. The RSE using adapted Iconian technology against them would be problematic.
I present to you, Exhibit A: all of TNG. Sela is a failure. She achieved nothing. Even in STO she tried to attack Vulcan, and failed miserably. After 'seizing control' of a fragile Empire, she lost her handle on the Tal'Shiar, and let an entire new faction slip from her grasp and take upwards of half of Romulan space. That's about all she managed to achieve. It was under her watch that the once-united Empire split into three completely separate entities. No leader of the RSE has ever failed so totally and miserably. Her only claim to fame as Empress is that she was the last Empress.
To be fair, most villains in TNG were failures. Sela learned from her mistakes in TNG and seized the opportunity when it presented itself post-Hobus.
And while Sela may not be perfect, she does get results. The RSE only fractured when the Iconians kidnapped her, which really only speaks more of her brilliance. If she gets removed, the whole thing falls apart -- so everybody is forced to rely on her.
It's extremely... Romulan.
Did she escape? Sure she did, but for what, and to where? She has nowhere to go, no place to call home. She's lost everything - and she admits so in her lovely letters to the player. No one will support her, no one will listen to her, no one will welcome her. The player is one of the very few people left that Sela knows who doesn't immediately hit "delete" when they receive a message from her.
Just like before, she can just disappear into the shadows. She's out there. Lurking. Biding her time. She was able to free herself by hacking into Gaius' brain -- she's extremely resourceful. More people should be afraid of the fact she escaped, not that she apparently has lost everything.
She came from nothing, and became Empress. She can do it again if she wants to.
She's done nothing to show that she actually cares about the health of the Empire. All she wanted was a throne to sit on, because she didn't get the Pretty Princess Castle she begged her parents for when she was young. And now her throne is meaningless, because the RSE crumbled into pieces within a couple years of her taking power.
She cares about the health of herself. Which is admirable. Without the Empress, there is no Empire. So to look out for her own safety is to look out for the safety of every Romulan. If she's healthy, the Empire is healthy.
The Romulans need a dictator to rule over them. They crave it. They demand it. That is the life they have known. To give freedom to a people who have thrived for the last few centuries (if not longer) under an oppressive dictatorship is dangerous.
What should be important is that the dictator is on 'our' side.
And that's not impressive? She sent a hearty "bugger off" to the Feds and Klingons and claimed the Sphere. Solanae is Republic territory. Starfleet and the KDF are there because of the alliance - if that alliance ends, then the codes to the Solanae gate will most definitely be changed.
If that alliance ends, the Voth and/or Undine will burn what's left of the Romulan Republic off the surface of the Solanae Dyson sphere. You might think a fence keeps the dog in, but in truth it keeps the rest of the predators away from the dog.
I have yet to see the Republic be submissive. We are at the table as a separate power during all negotiations, we field our own fleet, we have our home, we have our holdings, we have our allies, and so forth.
The Federation and KDF allow us to be at the table. They allow us to field our own fleet. They allow us to have our home (as long as they get a piece of the action), and as long as there's a KDF and Federation friendly leader in charge.
If D'Tan wasn't such a spineless coward with rose-tinted glasses, the KDF and Federation would never have allowed him to lead the Romulan Republic. They want somebody they can easily tell what to do.
There can be a lot of sabre-rattling, but at the end of the day, the Romulan Republic exists because the other two factions in power allow it.
Jarok wanted to shoot her on sight. Acknowledging a threat isn't the same as admiring it.
She wanted to. But she didn't. Jarok has no spine. She saw a threat to the safety of the Romulan Republic in front of her and instead of seizing the opportunity, she allowed the alpha wolf to tell her what to do.
that could be a reason to annihilate the Romulans but to ignore the potential billions of troops nearby?
not sound reasoning
To you it might, but it happens all the time. Its being doing that all through history. The Romulans are living in their space. So they must be removed.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
To you it might, but it happens all the time. Its being doing that all through history. The Romulans are living in their space. So they must be removed.
they're an ancient race that has had their TRIBBLE handed to them in the past. You'd think they'd plan it out a little bit better on the actual invasion.
What is with the epic hatred the Iconians have for the Romulans?
Haven't you ever been around a Romulan? They smell like fish and when they walk, they are constantly letting out little farts. In there defense. The female romulans poot. Oh and there cooking and eating habits are horid. I seen 1 Romulan frying up some Bologna, he reaches under his arm. Scoops out some Romulan lard sweet and slings it in his skillet to fry the bologna. In his defense also I must say. He didn't eat it. He fed it to his wife and children. Sick, I know. I would almost join the iconians in eraseing the romulan scum from the galaxy. If it wasn't for that thing the iconians have against destroying all life and ruleing the galaxy unchallenged sort of thing. Oh well I guess we all desever to die. Except for me of course, I'm a good little reman.
That was in really poor taste ... And that's just the spelling, I'm not even going to comment on the content.
The Elachi could be manipulated. Just like with the Borg technology, the RSE has the power to dominate any species it comes across, if we are united. If we fail to unite as one, then we lose our ability to dominate.
The Elachi are really just an example of how fracturing the Romulans into the Empire and Republic lead to misery on both sides.
There is no indication that this was going to happen.
Either way, once the Tal'Shiar started literally feeding their own people to the Elachi, all bets are off. That is disgusting.
To be fair, most villains in TNG were failures. Sela learned from her mistakes in TNG and seized the opportunity when it presented itself post-Hobus.
And while Sela may not be perfect, she does get results. The RSE only fractured when the Iconians kidnapped her, which really only speaks more of her brilliance. If she gets removed, the whole thing falls apart -- so everybody is forced to rely on her.
Sela succeeded at leading the Empire to utter destruction. She took a 2,000 year organization, and let it be replaced by something better. I have no idea what successes you're talking about - she has accomplished nothing. And she seems to have accomplished nothing but gaining power, and eventually being useless at wielding it.
Also, you're painting a picture of a very fragile system. If an entire empire can totally disintegrate when a single person is missing - no matter how high up that person may be - then that's a horridly designed system.
She cares about the health of herself. Which is admirable. Without the Empress, there is no Empire. So to look out for her own safety is to look out for the safety of every Romulan. If she's healthy, the Empire is healthy.
What kind of Romulan lore have you been reading? That doesn't jive with anything I've ever seen written about the Romulans. And even aside from non-canon / soft-canon content, it certainly doesn't match the bits and pieces of on-screen evidence we've seen.
The Romulans value honour (not the same as Klingon-style honour). Often, that honour is based in loyalty to the state, where the state is itself engaged in the pursuit of strengthening the people, and is worthy of protection via the people as a result. This connects to the concept of mnhei'sahe, which can be loosely interpreted as 'honourable action for the good of all things honourable.'
From my reading, you're very much right that Sela's focus is on herself, but that's wrong by Romulan standards. It's right of her to desire power, but wrong of her to simply take that power and misuse it. Her utter failure at securing the long-term survival of the Empire is an affront. Her dishonour dirtied the name of the RSE, at which point both the Empire and its Empress were no longer worthy of protecting.
That is, because Sela cares only about herself, she had set the state to support only her own personal goals. With the state no longer existing to foster the strength and survival of the Romulan people and traditions, the state itself lost its value. Without value, Romulans had no reason to protect it. By that, the honourable thing to do would be to replace the state with something that returns to the lost values.
Romulans place incredible value in a name. Sela's name, and the name of the Romulan Star Empire, are labels that have lost their value. A Romulan would thus look to value another name. In this case, that ended up being D'Tan and the Romulan Republic. Admittedly, that was Cryptic's writing decision - but the lore supports the Romulan people looking to replace a failed state with something else, something with more honourable goals.
The Federation and KDF allow us to be at the table. They allow us to field our own fleet. They allow us to have our home (as long as they get a piece of the action), and as long as there's a KDF and Federation friendly leader in charge.
If D'Tan wasn't such a spineless coward with rose-tinted glasses, the KDF and Federation would never have allowed him to lead the Romulan Republic. They want somebody they can easily tell what to do.
There can be a lot of sabre-rattling, but at the end of the day, the Romulan Republic exists because the other two factions in power allow it.
You keep saying that, but you don't back it up with anything. I've cited several examples of the Republic taking decisive, independent action. Each time, this has resulted in territorial gain, an advantage over the enemy, or the strengthening of military alliances. No, not everything D'Tan has done is perfect. But I see absolutely no evidence that the Republic is a servant of the Federation and Klingon Empire.
She wanted to. But she didn't. Jarok has no spine. She saw a threat to the safety of the Romulan Republic in front of her and instead of seizing the opportunity, she allowed the alpha wolf to tell her what to do.
"Alpha wolf?" You may want to look up how chains of command work in the military...
What is with the epic hatred the Iconians have for the Romulans? They've set off a supernova, and constantly abduct Romulans then even hit their new homeworld in a brutal attempt to conquer the planet.
It's like... 'Okay, the Romulans are down, let's not pay much mind to the trillions of Federation citizen elsewhere... oh and send a token ground force to keep the Klingons busy while we beat the TRIBBLE out of the Rommies."
Honestly... the Federation has the largest numbers and short of the Dominion, can yield a large number of troops. They have 150 member worlds (not counting colonies), so they have easily over a trillion citizens, meaning they can field an armed force well in the low 100 billions... yet they keep hitting the Romulans, who aren't doing too well.
If you go through the episode with Worf to explore the gateway and go the dyson sphere you will see how the races are labeled.
FEDERATION = threat lvl 4
KLINGON EMPIRE = threat lvl 4
ROMULAN EMPIRE = threat lvl 8
DOMINION = threat lvl 9
QUARRA(in Delta Quadrant) = threat lvl 6
Now the ALPHA QUADRANT was said to be the biggest threat and must be conqured first. Now starfleet having recieved this information made the decision to leave the alpha quadrant and say they now are part of the beta quadrant. This is how cryptic can explain why sol is where it is...LOL This gives starfleet the chance to gain intel and maybe learn a way to defeat the Iconians by sacrificing the alpha quadrant worlds (Deferi, Bajor, and Cardassia). (We all know as players that we will sacrifice an npc to save ourselves!).
What it doesn't explain is how the Romulans are a bigger threat. The Dominion are explained in that they control most of the gamma quadrant. We all played the missions where the romulans needed both FED and KDF help. This is like the USA saying it needs help from India or Mexico....it just doesn't make any sense.
So if the Romulans are really a threat lvl 8 that is why they are being picked on.
Its the only sense I can make out of the stupid intel the game gives you!
What is with the epic hatred the Iconians have for the Romulans? They've set off a supernova, and constantly abduct Romulans then even hit their new homeworld in a brutal attempt to conquer the planet.
It's like... 'Okay, the Romulans are down, let's not pay much mind to the trillions of Federation citizen elsewhere... oh and send a token ground force to keep the Klingons busy while we beat the TRIBBLE out of the Rommies."
Honestly... the Federation has the largest numbers and short of the Dominion, can yield a large number of troops. They have 150 member worlds (not counting colonies), so they have easily over a trillion citizens, meaning they can field an armed force well in the low 100 billions... yet they keep hitting the Romulans, who aren't doing too well.
Its a simple matter of stratagy to hit the weaker force first then move on and clearly at this stage the romulans are the weaker force atm.
After roms if i were the iconians id head to the federation next since taking on the klingon empire in earnest would be a long and bitter conflict with higher loses then the federation.
Hit the federation hard enough and they would sue for peace even at the cost of servitude to the iconians in short life no matter what matters to the federation even at the cost of its exsistence.
Klingon empire you hit them hard they will hit you back harder each and every time
they're an ancient race that has had their TRIBBLE handed to them in the past. You'd think they'd plan it out a little bit better on the actual invasion.
Some people just never learn. And they are no different.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
The Federation and KDF allow us to be at the table. They allow us to field our own fleet. They allow us to have our home (as long as they get a piece of the action), and as long as there's a KDF and Federation friendly leader in charge.
If D'Tan wasn't such a spineless coward with rose-tinted glasses, the KDF and Federation would never have allowed him to lead the Romulan Republic. They want somebody they can easily tell what to do.
There can be a lot of sabre-rattling, but at the end of the day, the Romulan Republic exists because the other two factions in power allow it.
She wanted to. But she didn't. Jarok has no spine. She saw a threat to the safety of the Romulan Republic in front of her and instead of seizing the opportunity, she allowed the alpha wolf to tell her what to do.
She has plenty of bark, but no bite.
Ok im gonna jump in on this ok you are right about one thing but dead wrong about another
What you got right was jarok i also think she is far to weak to be incharge of the republics flagship when given the chance for initative she choses not to.
this fact has been seen several times
Now to what you got wrong
D'tan is not as weak as you think ive seen several cases where he subtly manipulates the situation to favor him and the republic.
Sure he seems so passive but how would you do it with the bat'leth of the empire ate your throat and a phaser rifle at your back.
Right now D'tan has to play nice or the romulans lose everything however he is subtly manipulating the situations as they arise to best benefiet the romulans.
In short D'tan is playing a very high stakes game of chess hoping both the klingons and federation wont notice what he is doing until its set in stone.
If he were to lets say give the klinks and feddy bears the bird all the work of Mol'Rhian would be for nothing and the romulans as a civilisation and people would slowly fade from existence.
Dont think D'Tan is weak he is not he is in a bad situation with his back against the wall trying to manuever and manipulate things until the RR is strong enough NOT to need the KDF or Feds.
I seen something you said about sela and she is one of the reason romulus is no more she new taris and hakeev were a danger ...did nothing.
and even after hobus she allowed hakeev to kidnap romulans for the elachi and even allowed hakeev to use her OWN people as guinea pigs and you think she is a good leader?
Judging by how many of the Romulan Republic Navy just blew up above New Romulus, and judging the catastrophic ground casualties suffered, judging that D'Tan had to leave his burning capital and how dejected he looked... I'm inclined to disagree.
As for the Heralds attacking Qo'nos, that's great actually. It gives the Klingons that sit at home a place to go kill something other than Targs. And each other. Dad could take the family down to First City to go kill some Heralds and be home soon afterwards and take in some Bloodwine to celebrate.
The Heralds unwittingly made an Amusement Park on Qo'nos and the Klingons LOVE IT!
Judging by how many of the Romulan Republic Navy just blew up above New Romulus, and judging the catastrophic ground casualties suffered, judging that D'Tan had to leave his burning capital and how dejected he looked... I'm inclined to disagree.
Meh, they burned some trees and killed some redshirts. Nobody with a name. Not exactly the greatest military victory in the history of Star Trek.
And of course the only reason the Heralds "win" in Blood of Ancients is because the whole mission is basically a long, walk-in cutscene where the player's actions don't affect anything at all. The last space battle in particular is such a pointless waste of time that on re-runs, I always just cloak and go do something else while waiting for it to end.
Meh, they burned some trees and killed some redshirts. Nobody with a name. Not exactly the greatest military victory in the history of Star Trek.
And of course the only reason the Heralds "win" in Blood of Ancients is because the whole mission is basically a long, walk-in cutscene where the player's actions don't affect anything at all. The last space battle in particular is such a pointless waste of time that on re-runs, I always just cloak and go do something else while waiting for it to end.
When a mere "Raid" shatters the defending Republic fleet above a planet, when a mere "Raid" burns the capital, when a mere "Raid" inflicts massive losses, when a mere "Raid" forces the Republic's leader to abandon New Romulus for the safety of a mobile fleet, when the supreme leader of the Romulan Republic stands dejected, defeated, slooped shoulders and all... I still am inclined to disagree the Romulans are badass :P
And if you can't finish that fight promptly yourself, than you're no better than a "Redshirt."
And if you can't finish that fight promptly yourself, than you're no better than a "Redshirt."
That fight can't be "finished promptly." The first part is timed and the dreadnought is flagged unkillable. All you can do is wait for the script to run its course. Why should I care about blowing up some meaningless respawning ships when it doesn't affect anything at all?
That fight can't be "finished promptly." The first part is timed and the dreadnought is flagged unkillable. All you can do is wait for the script to run its course. Why should I care about blowing up some meaningless respawning ships when it doesn't affect anything at all?
Ahh, that part. I was thinking the earlier portion before you beam down to New Romulus.
D'tan is not as weak as you think ive seen several cases where he subtly manipulates the situation to favor him and the republic.
Sure he seems so passive but how would you do it with the bat'leth of the empire ate your throat and a phaser rifle at your back.
Right now D'tan has to play nice or the romulans lose everything however he is subtly manipulating the situations as they arise to best benefiet the romulans.
In short D'tan is playing a very high stakes game of chess hoping both the klingons and federation wont notice what he is doing until its set in stone.
Definitely agree. There's an element of nice-making in order to calm a dangerous situation. But even then, the gains he's made already are huge. Within a very short time, the Republic's made itself the recognized government of the Romulan people, claimed vast sections of territory, and collected resources for building a new state.
Yeah - have to admit, a LOT of BotA felt a bit 'forced'.
I mean, for example, I wanted to stay and defend the Starbase - but got forced warp-out instead.
I think they scripted it so it was supposed to feel fast-paced and ever-changing, while also demonstrating that the war had suddenly erupted on every front. Definitely served the multi-front purpose better than it was paced, though was still an interesting mission - and the feeling of loss at the decimation of the allied fleets was very well demonstrated.
But Delta Flight was pure gold. Really enjoyed that one.
The Heralds unwittingly made an Amusement Park on Qo'nos and the Klingons LOVE IT!
I noticed. If I was a Klingon that'd be awesome. An old man can regain his honour or die on the field of battle rather than old age and doesnt have to go far.
I noticed. If I was a Klingon that'd be awesome. An old man can regain his honour or die on the field of battle rather than old age and doesnt have to go far.
I know... I was like 'NO! DAMN IT! HELM YOU STAY RIGHT THERE! FIRE ALL WEAPONS! Security to the transporter room, I'm going aboard the station!"
Yeah, I would have tried to massacre the Herald fleet if not for the forced warp out too.
There is no indication that this was going to happen.
Either way, once the Tal'Shiar started literally feeding their own people to the Elachi, all bets are off. That is disgusting.
If you want an omelette, sometimes you have to break a few eggs.
Sela succeeded at leading the Empire to utter destruction. She took a 2,000 year organization, and let it be replaced by something better. I have no idea what successes you're talking about - she has accomplished nothing. And she seems to have accomplished nothing but gaining power, and eventually being useless at wielding it.
I'm sure Taris thought the same thing at one point. We see how that turned out for her.
Underestimate Sela at your own risk.
Also, you're painting a picture of a very fragile system. If an entire empire can totally disintegrate when a single person is missing - no matter how high up that person may be - then that's a horridly designed system.
It's a fail-deadly system. Mutually-assured destruction. I think it's a good system. Not perfect, but not horrible.
What kind of Romulan lore have you been reading? That doesn't jive with anything I've ever seen written about the Romulans. And even aside from non-canon / soft-canon content, it certainly doesn't match the bits and pieces of on-screen evidence we've seen.
Just from what I've seen on-screen. Romulans desire being told what to do. There are leaders and there are followers. Freedom is not something I think they are truly interested in. They can say they want freedom, but really I just see romulans desiring the illusion of freedom. The illusion of power to the people.
Then it just comes down to the people in power pandering to that illusion. Slavery is freedom. Weakness is power.
In truth, they just want to be told what to do by the Federation and KDF.
The Romulans value honour (not the same as Klingon-style honour). Often, that honour is based in loyalty to the state, where the state is itself engaged in the pursuit of strengthening the people, and is worthy of protection via the people as a result. This connects to the concept of mnhei'sahe, which can be loosely interpreted as 'honourable action for the good of all things honourable.'
Mnhei'sahe is interpreted in many ways. Like Klingon honor, you can justify anything you possibly want for the concept of an idea.
From my reading, you're very much right that Sela's focus is on herself, but that's wrong by Romulan standards. It's right of her to desire power, but wrong of her to simply take that power and misuse it. Her utter failure at securing the long-term survival of the Empire is an affront. Her dishonour dirtied the name of the RSE, at which point both the Empire and its Empress were no longer worthy of protecting.
The Iconian War has kind of proved otherwise. If she misuses her power, that's her choice. But the truth is the quadrant needed her. Because she is superior. Her form of government is superior. The Iconians recognize that, and fractured the Empire in half and nurtured weakness in the Romulan Republic to make it easier to crush them later.
Sela and her reputation were simply victims of the Iconian War. A character assassination.
That is, because Sela cares only about herself, she had set the state to support only her own personal goals. With the state no longer existing to foster the strength and survival of the Romulan people and traditions, the state itself lost its value. Without value, Romulans had no reason to protect it. By that, the honourable thing to do would be to replace the state with something that returns to the lost values.
There is something to be said about returning to a system of failed government. There is a reason the RSE became a fascist state -- because it worked the longest. For all the swooning I see from the Romulan Republic, nobody has bothered to ask the question why it ever failed to begin with, if it consists of so much sunshine and rainbows.
If a fascist state works, keep the fascist state. If Sela doesn't work, then overthrow her and replace her with a new fascist. Just keep turning over your leadership until you find something that works.
In this case, D'Tan can fiddle while Mol'Rihan burns.
Romulans place incredible value in a name. Sela's name, and the name of the Romulan Star Empire, are labels that have lost their value. A Romulan would thus look to value another name. In this case, that ended up being D'Tan and the Romulan Republic. Admittedly, that was Cryptic's writing decision - but the lore supports the Romulan people looking to replace a failed state with something else, something with more honourable goals.
Spock could have saved Romulus and Remus if he didn't hem and haw waiting for the Federation to do the right thing.
Putting his protege in charge really just introduces that same weakness Spock displayed. He seized his opportunity to do the right thing -- but he had waited for too long.
How long is the Romulan Republic going to wait for D'Tan to do what needs to be done, and what kind of losses are they willing to stomach before he does?
You keep saying that, but you don't back it up with anything. I've cited several examples of the Republic taking decisive, independent action. Each time, this has resulted in territorial gain, an advantage over the enemy, or the strengthening of military alliances. No, not everything D'Tan has done is perfect. But I see absolutely no evidence that the Republic is a servant of the Federation and Klingon Empire.
I see that evidence everywhere. I see the writing on the wall. The KDF and Federation feared Sela and her ability to take and hold territory. They willingly watched as Romulans slaughtered one another. They were just waiting for the dust to settle.
When D'Tan came out on top, the Federation and KDF clung to him because he was spineless and he was easy to bully. If D'Tan was truly concerned with the Romulan people, he'd have made some decisive action that conflicted directly with the Federation and KDF.
Instead, it seems like every other word out of his mouth is about how important those two factions are to the Romulan Republic. He's little more than a puppet. A mouthpiece. The Federation pulls the strings on his right hand. The KDF pulls the strings on his left hand, and they make him do the freedom and legacy song and dance like a marionette for the broken and brainless Romulans who want to see the Romulan Republic Show.
Some people are capable of seeing the strings. Some people are convinced the puppet is alive like Pinocchio.
I choose to see the strings.
"Alpha wolf?" You may want to look up how chains of command work in the military...
A military that Jarok doesn't recognize. A military that Sela, in turn, does not recognize. Because both were concerned equals in that one brief moment, it really came down to who was willing to take the lead.
"Alpha wolf" is a metaphor. But I think it's pretty accurate. Jarok is not willing to do what needs to be done. She knows Sela needed to die, instead she let her live -- and lo and behold, Sela does what Sela always does. She escapes.
Jarok saw a threat and refused to do something about it. Instead she followed Sela's orders because Sela is a natural leader. Jarok fell into the natural romulan mindset of being told what to do by her betters.
Because they hate all the younger races in the galaxy for the ancient crime of rebelling against them. They began manipulating some of the Romulans to thin the herd and bolster the loyal minions. Hakeev was a useful tool in this matter. Destroying their central world and harvesting their civilians. But some of them proved too strong for him, or the elachi. Defeating them wherever the paths crossed. Look at the defense of Romulus from the Elachi. Jarok was not there leading the fleet. But you, the romulan farmer turned ship captain were. And you turned back the overwhelming fleet. Ended Hakeev's experiments then ended Hakeev himself.
Because of this farmer they settled on an old minion world and rediscovered a functional gateway. Then managed to reverse the sabotage of that gate to save the world and open more of the iconians sacred works for use by these upstarts.
Remove the secure gate on Dewa III. Destroy the nearest fortress that could be used against your forces on Dewa or taking the space gate. And in each case your forces are struggling. Now even your heralds are driven from the surface of Dewa by these upstarts. It is not till an iconian herself arrives that the tide is turned again. But she drove the vorpal rabbit to burrow down to the gate. Destroying still more heralds. Then Uses the gate to warn the ancient ones. Again if a true Iconian had not interfered, they would have pushed the loyal forces back. Again.
Go into space and Once again these upstarts turn our lessor craft. It takes an iconian commanded dreadnought to get the job done. And what is the primary vessels lined up to destroy? The Romulan ones that have been studying our technology and beating back our minions.
And what I am left thinking is a reminder that in Chess the most powerful piece on the board is the queen.
The iconians hate the Romulans because they have stood up to them too well. They drew the attention that they warned against in the great hall of Qo'nos.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
In time, I think the Romulans could have even subjugated the Iconians and adapted their technology for themselves -- unfortunately, it does not seem like that was meant to be. Another reason the Iconians felt it was important to divide and conquer the Romulans. The RSE using adapted Iconian technology against them would be problematic.
Did you think that statement through? The Iconians had the Tal Shiar dancing on strings after Hobus. Then as far as we can tell they abandoned it when Hakeev dismally failed to take control of the Empire, which then fell apart.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
When a mere "Raid" shatters the defending Republic fleet above a planet, when a mere "Raid" burns the capital, when a mere "Raid" inflicts massive losses, when a mere "Raid" forces the Republic's leader to abandon New Romulus for the safety of a mobile fleet, when the supreme leader of the Romulan Republic stands dejected, defeated, slooped shoulders and all... I still am inclined to disagree the Romulans are badass :P
And if you can't finish that fight promptly yourself, than you're no better than a "Redshirt."
I would like to point out that on the New Romulus map, details have changed. There are burned tree stumps everywhere, and scorch marks on some of the ruins. This is New Romulus after the attack. No Iconians. No Heralds. They were driven off. But at the time, it didn't seem like that. Considering that the combine forces of the Alliance lost a quarter of their ships in one day, it must have seemed like the Iconians were invading New Romulus. So I will pose a question to you. If someone invaded the United States, and was landing troops on Virginia Beach, what do you think contingency plans require the President to do? The answer, of course, is to board Air Force One and get out of the way to maintain the chain of command. The United States is more then Washington D.C. and Virginia, and the Romulan Republic is more than Mol'Rihan.
Also...and this is key....EVERYONE at that meeting was dejected. Not just D'tan. Tom Paris is slumping. The bloody Klingons are slumping. Kagran is right there front and center, and there are too other dejected Klingons looking like their mommies served them their favorite pet targ for supper. Meanwhile, its the commander of the RRF who is giving the required "We will not give up" speech. Note that it's the "totally-not-badass" Romulan calling for resistance to the end, while the Klingons applaud.
Did you think that statement through? The Iconians had the Tal Shiar dancing on strings after Hobus. Then as far as we can tell they abandoned it when Hakeev dismally failed to take control of the Empire, which then fell apart.
Romulus wasn't built in a day. The Tal'Shiar did not master borg technology overnight, and there were many blunders as well as breakthroughs.
Hakeev had the right idea of working for the Iconians, if it meant betraying them later. The Iconians likely knew this, which is why Sela was put in the position she was in.
A Romulan Star Empire armed with Iconian-adapted technology was probably the biggest threat, which is why it was so important they break down and infect the Romulan leadership with weakness.
It may not have happened soon, but the Romulans are intuitive and resourceful with no issues using taboo technology if it meant furthering their agenda.
Yeah, New Romulus is still there after the attack. Nothing has changed. The gateway in the ruins was supposedly destroyed, but then it's been "destroyed" in every mission featuring it, except the one where its first found.
Comments
the republic isnt weak, and they have considerable power at their fingertips, but power must be used responsibily and correctly. if diplomacy fails to work and the only option remains is to die, then would you fight your own corner in the end or roll over and push up daisies?
sometimes diplomacy and peace can head off a conflict before it begins, it can create alliances, trade deals and other type of deals, it can extend power and influence. thats another sword, the one that iconians thinks is a butter knife.
d'tan wants to show the vulcans that reunification is possible, but the sheer timing of the iconian invasion over half a year later will have put those plans on hold.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Maybe Trendy should make a Romulan Republic Barista propaganda poster.
Semper Fill-To-Line.
Not in this case, no. The ability to slit the throats of your opponents does not guarantee a complimentary ability to lead an Empire. The system as a whole became flawed. Leaders would rise and fall not on their prowess as a leader or their ability to command - they'd simply kill their opponent, and sit pretty on the throne.
The leaders of late did nothing but claim power, and then drink while laughing about how awesome it was that they took power. The leaders who took charge were just as complacent as those who they replaced, if not moreso.
There'd be more dead, and sacrificed to the Elachi. Need I remind you that the Tal'Shiar decided it'd be jolly good to play errand boy to them?
The Tal'Shiar are the ultimate lapdogs. I find it amusing that you are so critical of the Republic somehow being submissive, but you're all-in for the Tal'Shiar who are explicitly at the service of the Iconians.
I present to you, Exhibit A: all of TNG. Sela is a failure. She achieved nothing. Even in STO she tried to attack Vulcan, and failed miserably. After 'seizing control' of a fragile Empire, she lost her handle on the Tal'Shiar, and let an entire new faction slip from her grasp and take upwards of half of Romulan space. That's about all she managed to achieve. It was under her watch that the once-united Empire split into three completely separate entities. No leader of the RSE has ever failed so totally and miserably. Her only claim to fame as Empress is that she was the last Empress.
Did she escape? Sure she did, but for what, and to where? She has nowhere to go, no place to call home. She's lost everything - and she admits so in her lovely letters to the player. No one will support her, no one will listen to her, no one will welcome her. The player is one of the very few people left that Sela knows who doesn't immediately hit "delete" when they receive a message from her.
She's done nothing to show that she actually cares about the health of the Empire. All she wanted was a throne to sit on, because she didn't get the Pretty Princess Castle she begged her parents for when she was young. And now her throne is meaningless, because the RSE crumbled into pieces within a couple years of her taking power.
And that's not impressive? She sent a hearty "bugger off" to the Feds and Klingons and claimed the Sphere. Solanae is Republic territory. Starfleet and the KDF are there because of the alliance - if that alliance ends, then the codes to the Solanae gate will most definitely be changed.
I have yet to see the Republic be submissive. We are at the table as a separate power during all negotiations, we field our own fleet, we have our home, we have our holdings, we have our allies, and so forth.
If being 'submissive' is consolidating power and territory at the expense of your enemy, or negotiating peace to replace centuries of hatred... well, I think I need some leather and fuzzy handcuffs
Jarok wanted to shoot her on sight. Acknowledging a threat isn't the same as admiring it.
A butter knife is all we were left with after Sela. But then we took that knife, used it to cut out our piece of Romulan space, and seal an alliance of honour with blood :cool:
There's more than enough steel left for whatever's next.
Maybe they don't consider the Federation a credible threat?
they can destroy the Romulans and Klingons and the Federation will still negotiate terms with them.
I'd say it's telling they're capable of slitting the throats of their opponents. It's not a perfect system, but it worked pretty well for a while.
And once they were removed, there was the potential for new leaders to come to power. Instead, they gave up their power instead of seizing it. Completely wasteful.
The Elachi could be manipulated. Just like with the Borg technology, the RSE has the power to dominate any species it comes across, if we are united. If we fail to unite as one, then we lose our ability to dominate.
The Elachi are really just an example of how fracturing the Romulans into the Empire and Republic lead to misery on both sides.
I like to think of myself more like Ash from the Alien movie.
I admire their purity. A survivor... unclouded by conscience, remorse, or delusions of morality.
In time, I think the Romulans could have even subjugated the Iconians and adapted their technology for themselves -- unfortunately, it does not seem like that was meant to be. Another reason the Iconians felt it was important to divide and conquer the Romulans. The RSE using adapted Iconian technology against them would be problematic.
To be fair, most villains in TNG were failures. Sela learned from her mistakes in TNG and seized the opportunity when it presented itself post-Hobus.
And while Sela may not be perfect, she does get results. The RSE only fractured when the Iconians kidnapped her, which really only speaks more of her brilliance. If she gets removed, the whole thing falls apart -- so everybody is forced to rely on her.
It's extremely... Romulan.
Just like before, she can just disappear into the shadows. She's out there. Lurking. Biding her time. She was able to free herself by hacking into Gaius' brain -- she's extremely resourceful. More people should be afraid of the fact she escaped, not that she apparently has lost everything.
She came from nothing, and became Empress. She can do it again if she wants to.
She cares about the health of herself. Which is admirable. Without the Empress, there is no Empire. So to look out for her own safety is to look out for the safety of every Romulan. If she's healthy, the Empire is healthy.
The Romulans need a dictator to rule over them. They crave it. They demand it. That is the life they have known. To give freedom to a people who have thrived for the last few centuries (if not longer) under an oppressive dictatorship is dangerous.
What should be important is that the dictator is on 'our' side.
If that alliance ends, the Voth and/or Undine will burn what's left of the Romulan Republic off the surface of the Solanae Dyson sphere. You might think a fence keeps the dog in, but in truth it keeps the rest of the predators away from the dog.
The Federation and KDF allow us to be at the table. They allow us to field our own fleet. They allow us to have our home (as long as they get a piece of the action), and as long as there's a KDF and Federation friendly leader in charge.
If D'Tan wasn't such a spineless coward with rose-tinted glasses, the KDF and Federation would never have allowed him to lead the Romulan Republic. They want somebody they can easily tell what to do.
There can be a lot of sabre-rattling, but at the end of the day, the Romulan Republic exists because the other two factions in power allow it.
She wanted to. But she didn't. Jarok has no spine. She saw a threat to the safety of the Romulan Republic in front of her and instead of seizing the opportunity, she allowed the alpha wolf to tell her what to do.
She has plenty of bark, but no bite.
To you it might, but it happens all the time. Its being doing that all through history. The Romulans are living in their space. So they must be removed.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
they're an ancient race that has had their TRIBBLE handed to them in the past. You'd think they'd plan it out a little bit better on the actual invasion.
Everyone, don't forget that Iconians are talking here. You can't trust them! :P
Either way, once the Tal'Shiar started literally feeding their own people to the Elachi, all bets are off. That is disgusting.
Sela succeeded at leading the Empire to utter destruction. She took a 2,000 year organization, and let it be replaced by something better. I have no idea what successes you're talking about - she has accomplished nothing. And she seems to have accomplished nothing but gaining power, and eventually being useless at wielding it.
Also, you're painting a picture of a very fragile system. If an entire empire can totally disintegrate when a single person is missing - no matter how high up that person may be - then that's a horridly designed system.
What kind of Romulan lore have you been reading? That doesn't jive with anything I've ever seen written about the Romulans. And even aside from non-canon / soft-canon content, it certainly doesn't match the bits and pieces of on-screen evidence we've seen.
The Romulans value honour (not the same as Klingon-style honour). Often, that honour is based in loyalty to the state, where the state is itself engaged in the pursuit of strengthening the people, and is worthy of protection via the people as a result. This connects to the concept of mnhei'sahe, which can be loosely interpreted as 'honourable action for the good of all things honourable.'
From my reading, you're very much right that Sela's focus is on herself, but that's wrong by Romulan standards. It's right of her to desire power, but wrong of her to simply take that power and misuse it. Her utter failure at securing the long-term survival of the Empire is an affront. Her dishonour dirtied the name of the RSE, at which point both the Empire and its Empress were no longer worthy of protecting.
That is, because Sela cares only about herself, she had set the state to support only her own personal goals. With the state no longer existing to foster the strength and survival of the Romulan people and traditions, the state itself lost its value. Without value, Romulans had no reason to protect it. By that, the honourable thing to do would be to replace the state with something that returns to the lost values.
Romulans place incredible value in a name. Sela's name, and the name of the Romulan Star Empire, are labels that have lost their value. A Romulan would thus look to value another name. In this case, that ended up being D'Tan and the Romulan Republic. Admittedly, that was Cryptic's writing decision - but the lore supports the Romulan people looking to replace a failed state with something else, something with more honourable goals.
You keep saying that, but you don't back it up with anything. I've cited several examples of the Republic taking decisive, independent action. Each time, this has resulted in territorial gain, an advantage over the enemy, or the strengthening of military alliances. No, not everything D'Tan has done is perfect. But I see absolutely no evidence that the Republic is a servant of the Federation and Klingon Empire.
"Alpha wolf?" You may want to look up how chains of command work in the military...
If you go through the episode with Worf to explore the gateway and go the dyson sphere you will see how the races are labeled.
FEDERATION = threat lvl 4
KLINGON EMPIRE = threat lvl 4
ROMULAN EMPIRE = threat lvl 8
DOMINION = threat lvl 9
QUARRA(in Delta Quadrant) = threat lvl 6
Now the ALPHA QUADRANT was said to be the biggest threat and must be conqured first. Now starfleet having recieved this information made the decision to leave the alpha quadrant and say they now are part of the beta quadrant. This is how cryptic can explain why sol is where it is...LOL This gives starfleet the chance to gain intel and maybe learn a way to defeat the Iconians by sacrificing the alpha quadrant worlds (Deferi, Bajor, and Cardassia). (We all know as players that we will sacrifice an npc to save ourselves!).
What it doesn't explain is how the Romulans are a bigger threat. The Dominion are explained in that they control most of the gamma quadrant. We all played the missions where the romulans needed both FED and KDF help. This is like the USA saying it needs help from India or Mexico....it just doesn't make any sense.
So if the Romulans are really a threat lvl 8 that is why they are being picked on.
Its the only sense I can make out of the stupid intel the game gives you!
Its a simple matter of stratagy to hit the weaker force first then move on and clearly at this stage the romulans are the weaker force atm.
After roms if i were the iconians id head to the federation next since taking on the klingon empire in earnest would be a long and bitter conflict with higher loses then the federation.
Hit the federation hard enough and they would sue for peace even at the cost of servitude to the iconians in short life no matter what matters to the federation even at the cost of its exsistence.
Klingon empire you hit them hard they will hit you back harder each and every time
Some people just never learn. And they are no different.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
Ok im gonna jump in on this ok you are right about one thing but dead wrong about another
What you got right was jarok i also think she is far to weak to be incharge of the republics flagship when given the chance for initative she choses not to.
this fact has been seen several times
Now to what you got wrong
D'tan is not as weak as you think ive seen several cases where he subtly manipulates the situation to favor him and the republic.
Sure he seems so passive but how would you do it with the bat'leth of the empire ate your throat and a phaser rifle at your back.
Right now D'tan has to play nice or the romulans lose everything however he is subtly manipulating the situations as they arise to best benefiet the romulans.
In short D'tan is playing a very high stakes game of chess hoping both the klingons and federation wont notice what he is doing until its set in stone.
If he were to lets say give the klinks and feddy bears the bird all the work of Mol'Rhian would be for nothing and the romulans as a civilisation and people would slowly fade from existence.
Dont think D'Tan is weak he is not he is in a bad situation with his back against the wall trying to manuever and manipulate things until the RR is strong enough NOT to need the KDF or Feds.
I seen something you said about sela and she is one of the reason romulus is no more she new taris and hakeev were a danger ...did nothing.
and even after hobus she allowed hakeev to kidnap romulans for the elachi and even allowed hakeev to use her OWN people as guinea pigs and you think she is a good leader?
Judging by how many of the Romulan Republic Navy just blew up above New Romulus, and judging the catastrophic ground casualties suffered, judging that D'Tan had to leave his burning capital and how dejected he looked... I'm inclined to disagree.
As for the Heralds attacking Qo'nos, that's great actually. It gives the Klingons that sit at home a place to go kill something other than Targs. And each other. Dad could take the family down to First City to go kill some Heralds and be home soon afterwards and take in some Bloodwine to celebrate.
The Heralds unwittingly made an Amusement Park on Qo'nos and the Klingons LOVE IT!
And of course the only reason the Heralds "win" in Blood of Ancients is because the whole mission is basically a long, walk-in cutscene where the player's actions don't affect anything at all. The last space battle in particular is such a pointless waste of time that on re-runs, I always just cloak and go do something else while waiting for it to end.
When a mere "Raid" shatters the defending Republic fleet above a planet, when a mere "Raid" burns the capital, when a mere "Raid" inflicts massive losses, when a mere "Raid" forces the Republic's leader to abandon New Romulus for the safety of a mobile fleet, when the supreme leader of the Romulan Republic stands dejected, defeated, slooped shoulders and all... I still am inclined to disagree the Romulans are badass :P
And if you can't finish that fight promptly yourself, than you're no better than a "Redshirt."
That fight can't be "finished promptly." The first part is timed and the dreadnought is flagged unkillable. All you can do is wait for the script to run its course. Why should I care about blowing up some meaningless respawning ships when it doesn't affect anything at all?
Ahh, that part. I was thinking the earlier portion before you beam down to New Romulus.
Definitely agree. There's an element of nice-making in order to calm a dangerous situation. But even then, the gains he's made already are huge. Within a very short time, the Republic's made itself the recognized government of the Romulan people, claimed vast sections of territory, and collected resources for building a new state.
That's a pretty successful chess game.
I think they scripted it so it was supposed to feel fast-paced and ever-changing, while also demonstrating that the war had suddenly erupted on every front. Definitely served the multi-front purpose better than it was paced, though was still an interesting mission - and the feeling of loss at the decimation of the allied fleets was very well demonstrated.
But Delta Flight was pure gold. Really enjoyed that one.
I noticed. If I was a Klingon that'd be awesome. An old man can regain his honour or die on the field of battle rather than old age and doesnt have to go far.
I know... I was like 'NO! DAMN IT! HELM YOU STAY RIGHT THERE! FIRE ALL WEAPONS! Security to the transporter room, I'm going aboard the station!"
My character Tsin'xing
If you want an omelette, sometimes you have to break a few eggs.
I'm sure Taris thought the same thing at one point. We see how that turned out for her.
Underestimate Sela at your own risk.
It's a fail-deadly system. Mutually-assured destruction. I think it's a good system. Not perfect, but not horrible.
Just from what I've seen on-screen. Romulans desire being told what to do. There are leaders and there are followers. Freedom is not something I think they are truly interested in. They can say they want freedom, but really I just see romulans desiring the illusion of freedom. The illusion of power to the people.
Then it just comes down to the people in power pandering to that illusion. Slavery is freedom. Weakness is power.
In truth, they just want to be told what to do by the Federation and KDF.
Mnhei'sahe is interpreted in many ways. Like Klingon honor, you can justify anything you possibly want for the concept of an idea.
The Iconian War has kind of proved otherwise. If she misuses her power, that's her choice. But the truth is the quadrant needed her. Because she is superior. Her form of government is superior. The Iconians recognize that, and fractured the Empire in half and nurtured weakness in the Romulan Republic to make it easier to crush them later.
Sela and her reputation were simply victims of the Iconian War. A character assassination.
There is something to be said about returning to a system of failed government. There is a reason the RSE became a fascist state -- because it worked the longest. For all the swooning I see from the Romulan Republic, nobody has bothered to ask the question why it ever failed to begin with, if it consists of so much sunshine and rainbows.
If a fascist state works, keep the fascist state. If Sela doesn't work, then overthrow her and replace her with a new fascist. Just keep turning over your leadership until you find something that works.
In this case, D'Tan can fiddle while Mol'Rihan burns.
Spock could have saved Romulus and Remus if he didn't hem and haw waiting for the Federation to do the right thing.
Putting his protege in charge really just introduces that same weakness Spock displayed. He seized his opportunity to do the right thing -- but he had waited for too long.
How long is the Romulan Republic going to wait for D'Tan to do what needs to be done, and what kind of losses are they willing to stomach before he does?
I see that evidence everywhere. I see the writing on the wall. The KDF and Federation feared Sela and her ability to take and hold territory. They willingly watched as Romulans slaughtered one another. They were just waiting for the dust to settle.
When D'Tan came out on top, the Federation and KDF clung to him because he was spineless and he was easy to bully. If D'Tan was truly concerned with the Romulan people, he'd have made some decisive action that conflicted directly with the Federation and KDF.
Instead, it seems like every other word out of his mouth is about how important those two factions are to the Romulan Republic. He's little more than a puppet. A mouthpiece. The Federation pulls the strings on his right hand. The KDF pulls the strings on his left hand, and they make him do the freedom and legacy song and dance like a marionette for the broken and brainless Romulans who want to see the Romulan Republic Show.
Some people are capable of seeing the strings. Some people are convinced the puppet is alive like Pinocchio.
I choose to see the strings.
A military that Jarok doesn't recognize. A military that Sela, in turn, does not recognize. Because both were concerned equals in that one brief moment, it really came down to who was willing to take the lead.
"Alpha wolf" is a metaphor. But I think it's pretty accurate. Jarok is not willing to do what needs to be done. She knows Sela needed to die, instead she let her live -- and lo and behold, Sela does what Sela always does. She escapes.
Jarok saw a threat and refused to do something about it. Instead she followed Sela's orders because Sela is a natural leader. Jarok fell into the natural romulan mindset of being told what to do by her betters.
Because they hate all the younger races in the galaxy for the ancient crime of rebelling against them. They began manipulating some of the Romulans to thin the herd and bolster the loyal minions. Hakeev was a useful tool in this matter. Destroying their central world and harvesting their civilians. But some of them proved too strong for him, or the elachi. Defeating them wherever the paths crossed. Look at the defense of Romulus from the Elachi. Jarok was not there leading the fleet. But you, the romulan farmer turned ship captain were. And you turned back the overwhelming fleet. Ended Hakeev's experiments then ended Hakeev himself.
Because of this farmer they settled on an old minion world and rediscovered a functional gateway. Then managed to reverse the sabotage of that gate to save the world and open more of the iconians sacred works for use by these upstarts.
Remove the secure gate on Dewa III. Destroy the nearest fortress that could be used against your forces on Dewa or taking the space gate. And in each case your forces are struggling. Now even your heralds are driven from the surface of Dewa by these upstarts. It is not till an iconian herself arrives that the tide is turned again. But she drove the vorpal rabbit to burrow down to the gate. Destroying still more heralds. Then Uses the gate to warn the ancient ones. Again if a true Iconian had not interfered, they would have pushed the loyal forces back. Again.
Go into space and Once again these upstarts turn our lessor craft. It takes an iconian commanded dreadnought to get the job done. And what is the primary vessels lined up to destroy? The Romulan ones that have been studying our technology and beating back our minions.
And what I am left thinking is a reminder that in Chess the most powerful piece on the board is the queen.
The iconians hate the Romulans because they have stood up to them too well. They drew the attention that they warned against in the great hall of Qo'nos.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Did you think that statement through? The Iconians had the Tal Shiar dancing on strings after Hobus. Then as far as we can tell they abandoned it when Hakeev dismally failed to take control of the Empire, which then fell apart.
Your father was captain of a starship for twelve minutes. He saved 800 lives, including your mother's, and yours.
I dare you to do better.
I would like to point out that on the New Romulus map, details have changed. There are burned tree stumps everywhere, and scorch marks on some of the ruins. This is New Romulus after the attack. No Iconians. No Heralds. They were driven off. But at the time, it didn't seem like that. Considering that the combine forces of the Alliance lost a quarter of their ships in one day, it must have seemed like the Iconians were invading New Romulus. So I will pose a question to you. If someone invaded the United States, and was landing troops on Virginia Beach, what do you think contingency plans require the President to do? The answer, of course, is to board Air Force One and get out of the way to maintain the chain of command. The United States is more then Washington D.C. and Virginia, and the Romulan Republic is more than Mol'Rihan.
Also...and this is key....EVERYONE at that meeting was dejected. Not just D'tan. Tom Paris is slumping. The bloody Klingons are slumping. Kagran is right there front and center, and there are too other dejected Klingons looking like their mommies served them their favorite pet targ for supper. Meanwhile, its the commander of the RRF who is giving the required "We will not give up" speech. Note that it's the "totally-not-badass" Romulan calling for resistance to the end, while the Klingons applaud.
Or as I like to call it: the "Never give up, never surrender" speech. Because Galaxy Quest.
Romulus wasn't built in a day. The Tal'Shiar did not master borg technology overnight, and there were many blunders as well as breakthroughs.
Hakeev had the right idea of working for the Iconians, if it meant betraying them later. The Iconians likely knew this, which is why Sela was put in the position she was in.
A Romulan Star Empire armed with Iconian-adapted technology was probably the biggest threat, which is why it was so important they break down and infect the Romulan leadership with weakness.
It may not have happened soon, but the Romulans are intuitive and resourceful with no issues using taboo technology if it meant furthering their agenda.