But er...those are pretty decent examples of games that are outright P2W...no?
DCUO is pay for content. There's no way to gain station points from any in game means, which is a big reason I don't play that game much. DDO and LOTRO is also pay for content but has a system to earn turbine points in game, with DDO being the easier of the two in obtaining them. I don't really know about LOTRO but DDO isn't pay to win. But hey, I've been taking my gimp bard (before they were the FOTM) into epic elite content for years and doing great so I may have a skewed point of view.
My greater point was seeing games from different developers lowering prices but at the same time putting out less content, just doing it more often. DCUO is actually partnering with DC and releasing new story missions based on the current happenings in the DC comings and movies. DDO is putting out classic DnD modules. They'er not overreaching story arcs and since the story is already built, they can release them pretty fast. It would be nice if STO followed suit by lowering prices but IDK how that would work since most of their profit comes from ship sales.
DCUO is pay for content. There's no way to gain station points from any in game means, which is a big reason I don't play that game much. DDO and LOTRO is also pay for content but has a system to earn turbine points in game, with DDO being the easier of the two in obtaining them. I don't really know about LOTRO but DDO isn't pay to win. But hey, I've been taking my gimp bard (before they were the FOTM) into epic elite content for years and doing great so I may have a skewed point of view.
My greater point was seeing games from different developers lowering prices but at the same time putting out less content, just doing it more often. DCUO is actually partnering with DC and releasing new story missions based on the current happenings in the DC comings and movies. DDO is putting out classic DnD modules. They'er not overreaching story arcs and since the story is already built, they can release them pretty fast. It would be nice if STO followed suit by lowering prices but IDK how that would work since most of their profit comes from ship sales.
DCUO sells powers.
Both DDO and LotRO sell improvements...faster this, faster that.
As you mentioned, they're also selling content. So it becomes a case of paying for stuff to do...rather than having free stuff to do where you don't need anything to do that stuff.
Sure, they could probably lower the cost of ships if they started charging for everything else too.
New FE coming...break out the credit card. New Specialization...break out the credit card. Want to fly faster across the map...break out the credit card. Etc, etc, etc...
Yep, ship sales do a good part of the funding for the game...reduce that funding, it would have to be made up somewhere else.
Since no one else is really hitting upon this, I will than.
STO is an online MMORPG and, unlike basic $30 - $65 console/computer games, doesn't actually sell games for a living to keep them in business.
They sell products within the game, while the game itself [software] is absolutely free.
So, when you think charging $30 for a C-store toy is expensive, just think of it as them selling a single copy of a game, like sooooo many other companies do.
Now, don't get me wrong, a contribution of $100+ from someone, is enough to pretty much buy 2+ console/computer games but, that is how those companies make their money and, not how EVERY game developing company makes their money.
It's either sell bunches of software copies and, people get to play it for whatever period and, may or may not get DL for it for free or, a fee + even the possibility of paying for game time via subscription fees for using their servers. [not all companies do this mind you]
Or
Get the entire game for free + DL content to boot [not all MMORPG's do this, as some charge for some DL content and/or, subscription fees] and, simply pay for in game goods/products/services/etc. [Some games offer ways to obtain these free as well via monetary trades]
So, the major question is, what do you prefer to spend your time/money on?
As Voporak once put so eloquently, you can also have a steak dinner by picking up lost pennies in a parking lot too.
And if one wants to compare playing STO to picking up pennies in a parking lot...then perhaps it simply is not the game for them. Or maybe it is...if that's their thing.
His comment was more to dispel the myth that everything can be bought for free with little to no effort. Most folk who bandy about the tired, old "you can earn it for free" adage misrepresent the time and effort involved to do so IMO.
Do they misrepresent it or just view it differently?
Tom's quick and easy might be tedious and laborious to Jerry.
Do they misrepresent it or just view it differently?
Tom's quick and easy might be tedious and laborious to Jerry.
Yes. And to use that hunting analogy, someone who knows what they are doing is completely different from someone hunting for the first time. Especially afterwards when you are actually preparing your meal.
DCUO sells powers.
Both DDO and LotRO sell improvements...faster this, faster that.
As you mentioned, they're also selling content. So it becomes a case of paying for stuff to do...rather than having free stuff to do where you don't need anything to do that stuff.
Sure, they could probably lower the cost of ships if they started charging for everything else too.
New FE coming...break out the credit card. New Specialization...break out the credit card. Want to fly faster across the map...break out the credit card. Etc, etc, etc...
Yep, ship sales do a good part of the funding for the game...reduce that funding, it would have to be made up somewhere else.
Yeah, I totally agree with you. I've always liked that STO has free content. Even if I take a break, I can still come back and not have to pay for what I missed. STO has the most generous F2P model I've ever seen. I didn't mind buying $20 ships. I farmed for the extra $5 for $25 ships and now I farm for the extra $10 for the $30 ships. If that means we get to keep our free content them I'm happy. My only concern is what will cryptic do if other MMOs are dropping prices.
Just a thought on putting micro into micro transactions.
Instead of lowering the cost of the big ticket items we get more small ticket items?
Like 150zen one character unlocks of cross faction uniforms. KDF/RR can buy all those 'not' uniforms the feds get. Fed/RR can get access to the oddly racially locked kdf uniforms. and Fed/KDF can get the romulan uniforms. (I think the tos rom female uniform was also a Klingon female uniform in Day of the Dove.)
Just as examples. That is little extra coding. No extra materials, and it gives several fans things they want. and is monetized.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
Hey if you want to spend months/years grinding out dilithium to purchase everything for from the store for free, more power to you. Clearly most others would rather spend the funds than waste the time.
I don't suffer that particular condition where I need everything...and...certainly not the particular version of that condition where I need it all now. I get what I want when I get it...it's all good...just from playing the game - and - in the end, playing a game's just about finding an enjoyable means of wasting time.
If one isn't enjoying themselves...well, I don't have that particular condition either...then maybe they shouldn't play.
Sounds like you've brought up somebody that needs to do a bit more than navel lint introspection about their life choices.
Yeah, I totally agree with you. I've always liked that STO has free content. Even if I take a break, I can still come back and not have to pay for what I missed. STO has the most generous F2P model I've ever seen. I didn't mind buying $20 ships. I farmed for the extra $5 for $25 ships and now I farm for the extra $10 for the $30 ships. If that means we get to keep our free content them I'm happy. My only concern is what will cryptic do if other MMOs are dropping prices.
Thing is though, if they're dropping prices while adding more prices to things - they're actually charging more, no? The proverbial nickel and dime situation...
Hey if you want to spend months/years grinding out dilithium to purchase everything for from the store for free, more power to you. Clearly most others would rather spend the funds than waste the time.
And, it is what keeps this game alive $ wise and, I will always say TY in appreciation!
Just a thought on putting micro into micro transactions.
Instead of lowering the cost of the big ticket items we get more small ticket items?
Like 150zen one character unlocks of cross faction uniforms. KDF/RR can buy all those 'not' uniforms the feds get. Fed/RR can get access to the oddly racially locked kdf uniforms. and Fed/KDF can get the romulan uniforms. (I think the tos rom female uniform was also a Klingon female uniform in Day of the Dove.)
Just as examples. That is little extra coding. No extra materials, and it gives several fans things they want. and is monetized.
This is something that has been asked for, in many ways more than once, lots of people have given ideas of little things here and there, that they would be willing to obtain via zen but, the vast majority has not been added, either because they were not the greatest of ideas and/or, Cryptic just doesn't feel/want to add them for reasons!
And you don't actually need any of it to successfully play the game. Learn the difference between need and want.
Do I get value out of the money I do spend on this game? Yes, yes I do. I get every penny of value because the game entertains me. That's what games are for. If you are expecting anything more than entertainment then YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG.
This is the second time you have quoted something of mine with a demeaning response.
... And also the second time where your point was already addressed and acknowledged in a post that you apparently decided to quote without reading.
I already said that it's not necessary to buy a new ship or upgrade. But once you've played out all of the content (over and over again) in your existing or free ships, what's left to do but buy a new ship for a different play style?
Never said otherwise. All I attempted to point out was that some folk like to toss about getting everything for free as if it were a quick and easy thing to do. It isn't. Clearly there is less time and effort involved with spending real money versus grinding out the requisite dilithium. That's how the game is structured in order to make the money necessary to keep the game running.
I tend to go with everything basically being a Finish Now scenario. Just like there are folks that will hit that Finish Now cause they need it now, there are folks that will just toss the money at the game. Have to be thankful for that, cause if they didn't - well, I couldn't play at the leisurely pace that I do.
At the current rate for what I do, it's about 80 minutes for for 80,000+ Dil which works out to 329 Zen. Which if one shortcuts it, works out to $3.29 worth of Zen over 80 minutes or ~$2.47 an hour. That's a horrible wage...if it were working. I mean, it's like 5 minutes vs. 80 minutes...horrible...if it were working.
I see it more as unwinding...just something mindless to do, to let things settle...something that's likely to kill fewer braincells than putting on the boob tube to unwind.
The game doesn't play by itself. Everyone has to learn to play. If you want to eat for free you have to learn to hunt, fish, and farm/garden. If you want stuff for free in the game you have to learn to use those skills too.
Which in of itself presents the case that the one that spends time in the game might have a shot at having a wee bit more understanding of the game than the one that spends little time in the game...which will affect the efficiency of the spending in the game.
Do they misrepresent it or just view it differently?
Tom's quick and easy might be tedious and laborious to Jerry.
It is all relative, and to answer your earlier how does this change make for D inflation, I hope I get to the right point here somewhere...
Some people that play STO simply refuse to spend money or stick to a "won't spend more then X in a month". Those people used to "farm" toons.
Increasing the cost to 3k for One T6 ship (and the strong tie in with traits ect on the packs.. meaning 9k is what most people really want for a ship pack) means this.
At the currant exchange the "free" cost of one T6 ship is around 744,000 D, or 93 Toon days at 8k. That is more then most (yes a few may) be willing to farm.
If you had 10 toons that you could afford to use the Daily limit from, it would take you 9.3 days. Now if you had it down to 9 min per toon (some people being a bit faster and some a bit slower) that is still an hour and a half per day... for 9 days or 13.5 hours of work in game for 30 bucks.
Before T6 price increases... and at around a 175 exchange rate, someone with 10 toons could grab a ship in 2-3 days, and 3-5 hours. That was a justifiable amount of time spent.
Currently it is more work then most people will bother with to buy other players zen with D. Which means fewer individuals like me fighting over pricing and driving the cost of D down. At this point the only people selling large amounts of D are gold farmers (that are all working the same large farm) guess what, they don't fight themselves over pricing. lol
EDIT PS... just read your last post there where you broke down your 10 toon run. lol I agree with you 80 min to 325 or so zen isn't TERRIBLE, it could be far worse... in my view they where far better off with a pricing system that encouraged more people to spend that hour and a half farming... cause the numbers of people doing it had us pushing the market meaning we where making 500-600 zen for the same amount of work. Yes the people spending money where getting less of a deal I admit... however the game was far more alive. I don't think Cryptic was in a place where they could afford to push those "free" working players as hard as they did. Not many people are willing to put in that many hours to earn something like a 3k ship... a 9k pack forget about it, at the rate you play its honestly a full work week of grinding D.
It just gets into that combination of the value of Zen and value of Dil.
For the exchange rate to have reached 243:1 (it's been higher) points to the value of Zen having increased and the value of Dil having decreased.
The two simplest factors to account for that (not necessarily the correct factors) would be:
Ships...Zen value increases.
Saturation...Dil value decreases.
There are all sorts of new Ships coming out that some folks apparently want.
There are a lack of Dil sinks while Dil has never been (outside of exploits) easier to get.
If people were cutting down on their farming, there would be less Dil...perhaps they have...perhaps that's why it hasn't gone to 300-400+, eh?
But it's the relationship between the values of those two items tied into the supply and demand of them...yeah?
How many folks are just speculating as well, eh? Buying Dil they don't need now expecting there to be some kind of Dil sink down the road and wanting to be ready for it, eh?
Wait, do you mean ~120$ for a multifaction ship pack, the price for a physical collector of a brand new AAA games, is slightly overpriced ? I can't believe it !
Sarcasms aside, yeah, it's way overpriced. Cryptic always said all the STO content will be free. So they make ships for the price of others game expansion. And instead of doing like 1-2 expansion per year, they can make dozen of them.
Also, it's a lot cheaper (a lot) to make a ship, than to make a 30$ worth expansion.
Someone posted a great response once, regarding the ability to get ships and other things without paying any actual money. I wish I knew who to credit for the comment, and I'm afraid I'm paraphrasing. I hope I get it right.
It's like going to a steakhouse. You can buy a steak for $30 or you can buy it by collecting pennies from the parking lot.
In other words, their method of getting things without paying actual cash is prohibitively time consuming and costly. It's not really a viable option.
Just because there is a ship does not mean you have to buy it. If one does not have impulse control...
Sounds like Igor in the comic strip, "Dork Tower". If there is a new -- no matter how badly written -- supplement to "Warhamster 40k" -- he always says: "I must have it!"
Ships cost a whopping $30. That's enough for a whole game right there.
Then Cryptic tries to upsell us on packs, by coupling desirable traits or consoles with ships with less desirable BOff loadouts. Not always, but sometimes. The "encouragement" for the packs happens regardless, thanks to set bonuses. $60.
Lobi ships costs 800 Lobi. At an average of 5 Lobi per box, that's 40 keys worth of boxes. Each key is $1.25. That's $50 for a Lobi ship. For a ship on a single toon, not an account unlock.
The chances of getting a ship out of a box is laughably low. But let's say people spend about $50 on average there. Though it's likely significantly higher for people who are determined to get a ship. Again, not an account unlock.
Player reports put it around 1.3 million Dil to upgrade the gear on a single toon. At the current exchange rate of 243 Dil:1 Zen, that's around 5350 Zen - a little over $50. Per toon, not even an account unlock.
These prices are a bit high, no? You can easily afford multiple games for the cost of getting yourself a nice ship and decent gear for a single toon - and Cryptic wants us to do this every other month.
Sure, you don't have to upgrade or get a new ship - but then, what's the point? Content is few and far in between, and it looks like ship releases seem to be taking the place of new content. Yes, you can complete everything with Mk XII gear, but the scaling (both bonuses to damage/stats and enemy health) is so skewed towards the high end that it heavily encourages upgrading.
EDIT: To make my point more clear; No, you don't have to buy every ship. But when you do plop down $30 for a ship, are you really getting $30 worth out of it? Is that ship worth a whole game?
800 lobi are T5 lobi ships, T6 cost 900. And at s rate of 5 lobinper box its 180 boxes for 900 or 160 boxes for 800 lobi not 40. math doesnt seem to be your strong suit does it?;)
And you are right ships and generally everything in this game is extremely expensive. Thats just because modt ppl here dont spent a dime on the game they play every day. Free to pay in all its wonderous glory. You are free to pay but if you do you pay for all those who didnt pay..
Actually, it's right on point to what I had said regarding the time and effort versus reward.
But it's not. It's no less subjective than the quick 'n easy folks, just at the other end of the spectrum. It's also subjective in the sense of comparing the ability to get Dil to having to pick up pennies from a parking lot. It's drowning in subjective...
To some...it will take too long...it will require too much effort.
To some...they're in no rush...it's no effort at all.
Working 5-10 minutes and that's a ship...not sure anybody's arguing that's not faster.
But the sheer hyperbole of the time/effort involved...just comes way to close to all the whining, no - the whinging (curious word, slightly different meaning) - that comes about with so many things that are not easy peasy instant gratification.
Sounds like Igor in the comic strip, "Dork Tower". If there is a new -- no matter how badly written -- supplement to "Warhamster 40k" -- he always says: "I must have it!"
Alot of Igors in STO, then.
There is a lot of the "must have it all", "must have it all now", "must have it all on all forty toons now", that goes in STO.
Meh, stuff happens when it happens...it's a game, it could all be gone tomorrow - then all the precious would be gone! Heh...stuff happens when it happens...I get stuff when I get stuff.
But it is. What takes less time and effort to buy something like a ship bundle from the store? Grinding out the dil for it or paying for it immediately?
This isn't rocket science.
Reading is fundamental...perhaps if you hadn't snipped...well...yeah, you wouldn't have asked a stupid question - given it was already answered.
And Grinding Dil? I get Dil from playing...I'm not grinding...it's a reward as I'm playing. People that play with poopoo glasses only see poopoo. And voila...what I said....
Your refining enough Dil in 5 to 10 minutes to buy a T6 ship pack? Right. :rolleyes:
That's some derpy crack you be smoking there.
The first time I mentioned the discrepancy in time, it was the 5 minutes vs. 80 minutes, right? Was there any mention of any T6 ship pack? No, that's your derp addled brain. So yeah, 5 minute chunks and wham bam...a ship...compared to 80 minute chunks.
Seriously, dude...are you asleep at the keyboard or something? This isn't like you.
1) Just buying the ship, having the disposable income, is going to be faster. Haven't seen anybody argue that it's not.
2) Making it out to be some huge amount of effort? That's subjective.
3) Making it out to be no effort at all? That's subjective.
4) Making it out to take forever to get done? That's subjective.
5) Making it out to take no time at all? That's subjective.
Comparing spending $30 for a steak vs. scrounging pennies from a parking lot...
...is subjective.
Saying that it's faster if one has the money just to buy the Zen to get the ship...
...is simple and straightforward.
Haven't seen anybody arguing the second. The first? Sounds like the typical whining nonsense that goes on with the forums about ermagherd the effort/time.
I see no reason to start insulting me for questioning you.
I'm not talking about earning chunks of dil over time. Can you login right now and earn/refine enough dil to purchase a ship pack within 5 to 10 minutes? No, you cannot.
Of course I cannot. And I never said I could. So why are you even asking that? It said...working - not playing. WTF, man? Working...a job...not playing...a game.
Except, it isn't. Again, what takes less time and effort? Searching around for and picking up 3,000 pennies in a parking lot or walking in and paying cash?
Tell you what. Let's go to a parking lot of a hypothetical steakhouse. I'll toss 3,000 pennies into the parking lot and you go and pick all of them up. I'll walk in with my $30.
Care to guess who is going to finish eating first with less effort?
Here's another hypothetical for you...
You pay with a credit card.
I pay with cash.
Who leaves the restaurant first?
No melodramatic pennies involved...
...scrounging pennies paints a picture - it offers an image. It's not simply stating that one is faster than the other.
So? Usually a 30 buck game gives you everything as well doesnt it? If we exclude games with DLC.
Well, for MMOs, that is not the standard. Non-F2P games require 15 $ to have access to everything - for a month.
Also, non F2P games don't allow anyone to play it for 0 buck.
In a F2P game, the people that pay are basically also paying for people that don't.
Why does it work that way? The people that don't pay but play are content. MMOs require having lots of players active, otherwise the "Massive" and "Multiplayer" parts just can't work. But getting players to pay 15 $ per month is a big barrier to entry, and so getting enough players is difficult - but if there aren't enough players, the people that did break through that barrier of entry - they leave, too.
The beauty of F2P games is that you don't have t put up with any of the money-making schemes. You can ignore them. You may need to grind more if you still want to have all the cool stuff, but that just means you need to play the game a lot. If you didn't want to play the game, you wouldn't be here in the first place.
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
If you didn't want to play the game, you wouldn't be here in the first place.
Heh, the way a lot of folks out there talk about the game - it's like they had the choice of playing STO or going to prison; and they're regretting their decision.
It's a game, right? Entertainment? Stuff we do for fun, yeah? Waste some time. Oh well...
The whole penny thing is funny because its the absurd example of the issue.
The issue is Cryptic has a Economic cycle system setup... and they have seemingly been trying to deflate the value of Zen for the last while. In my opinion it is costing them more players then it will be worth long term. It seems very short sighted.
As for the penny thing.... Virus think of it like this.
Your in the steak house lot... 6 months ago the Steak House you like had a TON of people milling around. You could just go in and pay $20 bucks and eat... or you could wash car windows on the corner and make 20 bucks in a few hours and then go have a steak. Today if you where to go to the same steak house you can still go in but the steak, they upped the price to 30 for a TRIBBLE cut, and now sell a 90 dollar version with all the fixings, order the 30 and your date will laugh at you. You can still head to the corner and try to hustle up some funds for diner of course now that the steak house has fewer people around you will have to work harder (higher exchange rate) and of course your now going to need 30 bucks min, and really feel like a bum if you can't swing the 90 dollar plate.
So the entire point of the much more elegant penny version... its a joke. Behind every good joke is a kernel of truth, and if its highlighted with a slight exaggeration its only funnier.
Comments
Why does it have to be? Nobody forced anyone to get on the min-max train.
DCUO is pay for content. There's no way to gain station points from any in game means, which is a big reason I don't play that game much. DDO and LOTRO is also pay for content but has a system to earn turbine points in game, with DDO being the easier of the two in obtaining them. I don't really know about LOTRO but DDO isn't pay to win. But hey, I've been taking my gimp bard (before they were the FOTM) into epic elite content for years and doing great so I may have a skewed point of view.
My greater point was seeing games from different developers lowering prices but at the same time putting out less content, just doing it more often. DCUO is actually partnering with DC and releasing new story missions based on the current happenings in the DC comings and movies. DDO is putting out classic DnD modules. They'er not overreaching story arcs and since the story is already built, they can release them pretty fast. It would be nice if STO followed suit by lowering prices but IDK how that would work since most of their profit comes from ship sales.
DCUO sells powers.
Both DDO and LotRO sell improvements...faster this, faster that.
As you mentioned, they're also selling content. So it becomes a case of paying for stuff to do...rather than having free stuff to do where you don't need anything to do that stuff.
Sure, they could probably lower the cost of ships if they started charging for everything else too.
New FE coming...break out the credit card. New Specialization...break out the credit card. Want to fly faster across the map...break out the credit card. Etc, etc, etc...
Yep, ship sales do a good part of the funding for the game...reduce that funding, it would have to be made up somewhere else.
STO is an online MMORPG and, unlike basic $30 - $65 console/computer games, doesn't actually sell games for a living to keep them in business.
They sell products within the game, while the game itself [software] is absolutely free.
So, when you think charging $30 for a C-store toy is expensive, just think of it as them selling a single copy of a game, like sooooo many other companies do.
Now, don't get me wrong, a contribution of $100+ from someone, is enough to pretty much buy 2+ console/computer games but, that is how those companies make their money and, not how EVERY game developing company makes their money.
It's either sell bunches of software copies and, people get to play it for whatever period and, may or may not get DL for it for free or, a fee + even the possibility of paying for game time via subscription fees for using their servers. [not all companies do this mind you]
Or
Get the entire game for free + DL content to boot [not all MMORPG's do this, as some charge for some DL content and/or, subscription fees] and, simply pay for in game goods/products/services/etc. [Some games offer ways to obtain these free as well via monetary trades]
So, the major question is, what do you prefer to spend your time/money on?
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
And if one wants to compare playing STO to picking up pennies in a parking lot...then perhaps it simply is not the game for them. Or maybe it is...if that's their thing.
Do they misrepresent it or just view it differently?
Tom's quick and easy might be tedious and laborious to Jerry.
Yes. And to use that hunting analogy, someone who knows what they are doing is completely different from someone hunting for the first time. Especially afterwards when you are actually preparing your meal.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Yeah, I totally agree with you. I've always liked that STO has free content. Even if I take a break, I can still come back and not have to pay for what I missed. STO has the most generous F2P model I've ever seen. I didn't mind buying $20 ships. I farmed for the extra $5 for $25 ships and now I farm for the extra $10 for the $30 ships. If that means we get to keep our free content them I'm happy. My only concern is what will cryptic do if other MMOs are dropping prices.
Instead of lowering the cost of the big ticket items we get more small ticket items?
Like 150zen one character unlocks of cross faction uniforms. KDF/RR can buy all those 'not' uniforms the feds get. Fed/RR can get access to the oddly racially locked kdf uniforms. and Fed/KDF can get the romulan uniforms. (I think the tos rom female uniform was also a Klingon female uniform in Day of the Dove.)
Just as examples. That is little extra coding. No extra materials, and it gives several fans things they want. and is monetized.
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
I don't suffer that particular condition where I need everything...and...certainly not the particular version of that condition where I need it all now. I get what I want when I get it...it's all good...just from playing the game - and - in the end, playing a game's just about finding an enjoyable means of wasting time.
If one isn't enjoying themselves...well, I don't have that particular condition either...then maybe they shouldn't play.
Sounds like you've brought up somebody that needs to do a bit more than navel lint introspection about their life choices.
Thing is though, if they're dropping prices while adding more prices to things - they're actually charging more, no? The proverbial nickel and dime situation...
And, it is what keeps this game alive $ wise and, I will always say TY in appreciation!
This is something that has been asked for, in many ways more than once, lots of people have given ideas of little things here and there, that they would be willing to obtain via zen but, the vast majority has not been added, either because they were not the greatest of ideas and/or, Cryptic just doesn't feel/want to add them for reasons!
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
This is the second time you have quoted something of mine with a demeaning response.
... And also the second time where your point was already addressed and acknowledged in a post that you apparently decided to quote without reading.
I already said that it's not necessary to buy a new ship or upgrade. But once you've played out all of the content (over and over again) in your existing or free ships, what's left to do but buy a new ship for a different play style?
I tend to go with everything basically being a Finish Now scenario. Just like there are folks that will hit that Finish Now cause they need it now, there are folks that will just toss the money at the game. Have to be thankful for that, cause if they didn't - well, I couldn't play at the leisurely pace that I do.
At the current rate for what I do, it's about 80 minutes for for 80,000+ Dil which works out to 329 Zen. Which if one shortcuts it, works out to $3.29 worth of Zen over 80 minutes or ~$2.47 an hour. That's a horrible wage...if it were working. I mean, it's like 5 minutes vs. 80 minutes...horrible...if it were working.
I see it more as unwinding...just something mindless to do, to let things settle...something that's likely to kill fewer braincells than putting on the boob tube to unwind.
Which in of itself presents the case that the one that spends time in the game might have a shot at having a wee bit more understanding of the game than the one that spends little time in the game...which will affect the efficiency of the spending in the game.
It is all relative, and to answer your earlier how does this change make for D inflation, I hope I get to the right point here somewhere...
Some people that play STO simply refuse to spend money or stick to a "won't spend more then X in a month". Those people used to "farm" toons.
Increasing the cost to 3k for One T6 ship (and the strong tie in with traits ect on the packs.. meaning 9k is what most people really want for a ship pack) means this.
At the currant exchange the "free" cost of one T6 ship is around 744,000 D, or 93 Toon days at 8k. That is more then most (yes a few may) be willing to farm.
If you had 10 toons that you could afford to use the Daily limit from, it would take you 9.3 days. Now if you had it down to 9 min per toon (some people being a bit faster and some a bit slower) that is still an hour and a half per day... for 9 days or 13.5 hours of work in game for 30 bucks.
Before T6 price increases... and at around a 175 exchange rate, someone with 10 toons could grab a ship in 2-3 days, and 3-5 hours. That was a justifiable amount of time spent.
Currently it is more work then most people will bother with to buy other players zen with D. Which means fewer individuals like me fighting over pricing and driving the cost of D down. At this point the only people selling large amounts of D are gold farmers (that are all working the same large farm) guess what, they don't fight themselves over pricing. lol
EDIT PS... just read your last post there where you broke down your 10 toon run. lol
For the exchange rate to have reached 243:1 (it's been higher) points to the value of Zen having increased and the value of Dil having decreased.
The two simplest factors to account for that (not necessarily the correct factors) would be:
Ships...Zen value increases.
Saturation...Dil value decreases.
There are all sorts of new Ships coming out that some folks apparently want.
There are a lack of Dil sinks while Dil has never been (outside of exploits) easier to get.
If people were cutting down on their farming, there would be less Dil...perhaps they have...perhaps that's why it hasn't gone to 300-400+, eh?
But it's the relationship between the values of those two items tied into the supply and demand of them...yeah?
How many folks are just speculating as well, eh? Buying Dil they don't need now expecting there to be some kind of Dil sink down the road and wanting to be ready for it, eh?
Sarcasms aside, yeah, it's way overpriced. Cryptic always said all the STO content will be free. So they make ships for the price of others game expansion. And instead of doing like 1-2 expansion per year, they can make dozen of them.
Also, it's a lot cheaper (a lot) to make a ship, than to make a 30$ worth expansion.
It was already mentioned in the thread...
...and discussed - cause it's a bad analogy.
It's like saying if somebody logs in once a week, then the R&D system could take over 6.6 years to get to Level 20 via a single Research Project!!!!
Sounds like Igor in the comic strip, "Dork Tower". If there is a new -- no matter how badly written -- supplement to "Warhamster 40k" -- he always says: "I must have it!"
Alot of Igors in STO, then.
800 lobi are T5 lobi ships, T6 cost 900. And at s rate of 5 lobinper box its 180 boxes for 900 or 160 boxes for 800 lobi not 40. math doesnt seem to be your strong suit does it?;)
And you are right ships and generally everything in this game is extremely expensive. Thats just because modt ppl here dont spent a dime on the game they play every day. Free to pay in all its wonderous glory. You are free to pay but if you do you pay for all those who didnt pay..
But it's not. It's no less subjective than the quick 'n easy folks, just at the other end of the spectrum. It's also subjective in the sense of comparing the ability to get Dil to having to pick up pennies from a parking lot. It's drowning in subjective...
To some...it will take too long...it will require too much effort.
To some...they're in no rush...it's no effort at all.
Working 5-10 minutes and that's a ship...not sure anybody's arguing that's not faster.
But the sheer hyperbole of the time/effort involved...just comes way to close to all the whining, no - the whinging (curious word, slightly different meaning) - that comes about with so many things that are not easy peasy instant gratification.
There is a lot of the "must have it all", "must have it all now", "must have it all on all forty toons now", that goes in STO.
Meh, stuff happens when it happens...it's a game, it could all be gone tomorrow - then all the precious would be gone! Heh...stuff happens when it happens...I get stuff when I get stuff.
Reading is fundamental...perhaps if you hadn't snipped...well...yeah, you wouldn't have asked a stupid question - given it was already answered.
And Grinding Dil? I get Dil from playing...I'm not grinding...it's a reward as I'm playing. People that play with poopoo glasses only see poopoo. And voila...what I said....
Really? You read this?
"Working 5-10 minutes and that's a ship...not sure anybody's arguing that's not faster."
So you ask which is faster...after having read that?
Derp.
And that wasn't the first time that I'd said it. Yet you asked all the same.
Derpity derp.
That's some derpy crack you be smoking there.
The first time I mentioned the discrepancy in time, it was the 5 minutes vs. 80 minutes, right? Was there any mention of any T6 ship pack? No, that's your derp addled brain. So yeah, 5 minute chunks and wham bam...a ship...compared to 80 minute chunks.
Seriously, dude...are you asleep at the keyboard or something? This isn't like you.
1) Just buying the ship, having the disposable income, is going to be faster. Haven't seen anybody argue that it's not.
2) Making it out to be some huge amount of effort? That's subjective.
3) Making it out to be no effort at all? That's subjective.
4) Making it out to take forever to get done? That's subjective.
5) Making it out to take no time at all? That's subjective.
Comparing spending $30 for a steak vs. scrounging pennies from a parking lot...
...is subjective.
Saying that it's faster if one has the money just to buy the Zen to get the ship...
...is simple and straightforward.
Haven't seen anybody arguing the second. The first? Sounds like the typical whining nonsense that goes on with the forums about ermagherd the effort/time.
Of course I cannot. And I never said I could. So why are you even asking that? It said...working - not playing. WTF, man? Working...a job...not playing...a game.
Like I said...are you alright? Seriously...
Do you equate it to picking up 3000 pennies?
Here's another hypothetical for you...
You pay with a credit card.
I pay with cash.
Who leaves the restaurant first?
No melodramatic pennies involved...
...scrounging pennies paints a picture - it offers an image. It's not simply stating that one is faster than the other.
Also, non F2P games don't allow anyone to play it for 0 buck.
In a F2P game, the people that pay are basically also paying for people that don't.
Why does it work that way? The people that don't pay but play are content. MMOs require having lots of players active, otherwise the "Massive" and "Multiplayer" parts just can't work. But getting players to pay 15 $ per month is a big barrier to entry, and so getting enough players is difficult - but if there aren't enough players, the people that did break through that barrier of entry - they leave, too.
The beauty of F2P games is that you don't have t put up with any of the money-making schemes. You can ignore them. You may need to grind more if you still want to have all the cool stuff, but that just means you need to play the game a lot. If you didn't want to play the game, you wouldn't be here in the first place.
Heh, the way a lot of folks out there talk about the game - it's like they had the choice of playing STO or going to prison; and they're regretting their decision.
It's a game, right? Entertainment? Stuff we do for fun, yeah? Waste some time. Oh well...
The issue is Cryptic has a Economic cycle system setup... and they have seemingly been trying to deflate the value of Zen for the last while. In my opinion it is costing them more players then it will be worth long term. It seems very short sighted.
As for the penny thing.... Virus think of it like this.
Your in the steak house lot... 6 months ago the Steak House you like had a TON of people milling around. You could just go in and pay $20 bucks and eat... or you could wash car windows on the corner and make 20 bucks in a few hours and then go have a steak. Today if you where to go to the same steak house you can still go in but the steak, they upped the price to 30 for a TRIBBLE cut, and now sell a 90 dollar version with all the fixings, order the 30 and your date will laugh at you. You can still head to the corner and try to hustle up some funds for diner of course now that the steak house has fewer people around you will have to work harder (higher exchange rate) and of course your now going to need 30 bucks min, and really feel like a bum if you can't swing the 90 dollar plate.
So the entire point of the much more elegant penny version... its a joke. Behind every good joke is a kernel of truth, and if its highlighted with a slight exaggeration its only funnier.