today, the grass is greener on our side of the fence

gavinruneblade

So, a friend got frustrated with how toxic the sto community was. Wanted me to join him over on swtor.

Then, last Friday this happened:
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=811195

For those who don't trust links, the short version is devs nerfed a class, then explained why. A player or players who didn't like the Nerf and the reason tracked down a dev's family and threatened them.

Here's the really messed up part: four days have gone by and there are still people creating threads and posts saying the Dev was asking for it and that the community manager was wrong for taking a harsh tone when defending the Dev and saying the behavior crossed the line.

Lawyers cops, soldiers, politicians... These people know their family might get some fallout because of work. Game developers are not on that list and never should be.

We may insult gecko, make angry signatures etc... But seriously, threatening someone's family over their reason for a Nerf? Lordy I'm glad to be over here this week.

virusdancer

Hrmm, outside of the threats and all... the replies to that John guy's thread seemed pretty tame compared to what goes on around here. At one point Smirk was talking martial law things had gotten so out of hand and he was pissed off at the attacks on the devs...Trendy's likely to decapitate some folks with her Baco'leth if things keep up. Cause Hell, there have been folks talking about burning down the Cryptic offices, the one really stupid guy that made the bomb threat, etc, etc, etc...folks just be crazy...the grass here isn't really any greener. Though, maybe today.

starkaos

I hope that player or players get prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Tempers may flare on the forums resulting in the thread being shut down by the mods, but nothing excuses taking out their frustrations on someone's family.

Although, the internet would be a more civil place if this happened. WARNING: Language.

The most important part of this video is that the main characters are beating up the forum poster and not the forum poster's family.

gulberat

There have been threats over here before. Totally disgusting, totally uncalled for. I don't care HOW angry you are over a game. That sort of conduct is never, ever, EVER justified. here, there, or anywhere. EVER. :mad:

gavinruneblade

gulberat wrote: »

There have been threats over here before. Totally disgusting, totally uncalled for. I don't care HOW angry you are over a game. That sort of conduct is never, ever, EVER justified. here, there, or anywhere. EVER. :mad:

The point I was impressed by, were the over 30 people in 5 or 6 different threads defending the guy who did it.

There's always gonna be crazy people. But to have a couple dozen people defend the crazy person and say the dev was aking for his family to be threatened?

I'd like to thik that our community wouldn't have that many people defending the few crazies. This bit:

gavinruneblade wrote: »

Here's the really messed up part: four days have gone by and there are still people creating threads and posts saying the Dev was asking for it and that the community manager was wrong for taking a harsh tone when defending the Dev and saying the behavior crossed the line.

Here's an example of one of the more polite ones:

It's unfortunate some people took to this extreme measure and in no way do I condone it.

That being said, maybe you as developers need to look into why this group and this topic ended up going to such extremes.

Reading your response about dialogue made my stomach churn just a little, because the posts I'm reading from the combat team are less about actual dialogue and more of a "Learn to Play" or "this is how we want you to play a TRIBBLE spec Sent/Mara".

Now this isn't to say that dialogue didn't happen on other developer posts, in fact quite the opposite, many were happy about the reversal of "QOL" Heal changes that were actually nerfs.

But the tone of the messages from the COMBAT team regarding Sentinels and Marauders is drastically different, bordering on antagonizing.

Again, don't hide behind the fact that some groups went to unethical extremes, but to me, this illustrates the frustration level of players who are extremely passionate about a class, and how they are not feeling heard or acknowledged to the point of being antagonized.

Developer interaction is increasing, but it is still very spotty at best when it comes to actual dialogue and that's the issue, the lack of one side feeling heard or acknowledged.

There were people who were very much worse. Basically saying the community manager and devs had no right to be angry at what happened.

gulberat

I may be wrong, but I don't think I have ever seen people, after a crazy has popped off in here, claiming that the target "deserved" it. "Even" the least popular people on our staff do NOT deserve their safety threatened, under any circumstances.

I would like to hope I'm correct in saying that our community gets that, as an overwhelming whole. And that we understand that respecting BASIC civilized society, and the LAW, is not "white knighting." It's just called being a decent human being.

gavinruneblade

gulberat wrote: »

I may be wrong, but I don't think I have ever seen people, after a crazy has popped off in here, claiming that the target "deserved" it. "Even" the least popular people on our staff do NOT deserve their safety threatened, under any circumstances. I would like to hope I'm correct in saying that our community gets that, as an overwhelming whole.

Exactly my point. Why I felt like the grass is greener on our side of the fence. Yeeesh. The infinitely recursive facepalm doesn't have enough facepalms for the situation over there. Though it does seem to be running its course.

gulberat

gavinruneblade wrote: »

Exactly my point. Why I felt like the grass is greener on our side of the fence. Yeeesh. The infinitely recursive facepalm doesn't have enough facepalms for the situation over there. Though it does seem to be running its course.

Whew.

At least personally I aim for a "professional" way of conducting myself with staff, including those whose styles or business decisions I do not like. I can think of a couple individuals I disagreed with seriously on style and ways of handling certain things...and those individuals knew it very well, I think. But I was (and am) clear that if someone crossed the basic lines of human decency against them with threats or sick personal insults, it could be a crapshoot as to whether I'd report it first, or go off, and THEN report it. I like to hope they knew they could count on that too, just as much as on my disagreement on business issues.

And wow at the stuff you edited in to add.

That is victim blame, pure and simple. I won't draw the obvious analogy that comes to mind, but suffice it to say that considering the "offense" was just changing a game in a way someone didn't like, or MAYBE at the most, being abrasive or saying something unnecessarily snarky, the dev that was attacked there DOES absolutely count as the victim given how obscenely disproportionate the response was. We are not talking about some sort of life-and-death situation where said dev was taking people out with a real live death ray! I mean, the rational and proportional response to a GAME problem is to either a) constructively complain about the problem, b) quit paying, or c) leave.

mirrorchaos

gavinruneblade wrote: »

So, a friend got frustrated with how toxic the sto community was. Wanted me to join him over on swtor.

Then, last Friday this happened:
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=811195

For those who don't trust links, the short version is devs nerfed a class, then explained why. A player or players who didn't like the Nerf and the reason tracked down a dev's family and threatened them.

Here's the really messed up part: four days have gone by and there are still people creating threads and posts saying the Dev was asking for it and that the community manager was wrong for taking a harsh tone when defending the Dev and saying the behavior crossed the line.

Lawyers cops, soldiers, politicians... These people know their family might get some fallout because of work. Game developers are not on that list and never should be.

We may insult gecko, make angry signatures etc... But seriously, threatening someone's family over their reason for a Nerf? Lordy I'm glad to be over here this week.

the whole thread is about a flame war over a generalized part of the population as it is here, if only a few did this, then they should get all the bad that hits them in the face, it doesnt mean that the minority should be used as an excuse to punish the majority. and the players who posted on that thread should know better then to misplace blame like they have done. if i had the chance to know this thread was still active i would of posted the same thoughts i am posting here in that thread.

some people can not seperate fiction from reality, thats just the way it is, and some people are so toxic about their wants and needs, anyone along the way gets run over, thats what competition does. these things happen unfortunately regardless if i agree or disagree.

as for how toxic the swtor community is, the root cause of the toxic part of the community is that the forums are not well moderated, some players run amok and you got some really nasty trolls on that forum as well. the rest is as eric musco put in: remaining silent, as a result the players are no longer thinking that the people in charge care any longer about their community they once did on the forum.

both sides are to blame for the toxic part, but those few players are to blame for going beyond acceptable limits.

corelogik

What needs to happen is instead of playing all politically correct with these whackos, either here or there, lay down the law and make it abundantly clear that a game is NOT a democracy. THere are rules that WILL be obeyed or consequences will follow. If people continue, start issuing bans and not just from the forums, from the game itself.

Having and expressing an opinion is one thing, even a passionate one. Carrying said opinion to extremes when you don't get your way is something else entirely.

Its symptom of a larger societal issue. There aren't consequences for anything anymore. Everything is always someone else's fault. TIme to bring back consequences for your own actions and make them stick.

People take this kind of thing way to seriously, hence the somewhat shady reputation of gamers in general.

baelogventure

SW:TOR gives you 12x exp on story missions.

I can live with the combat team getting threatened over nerfing the dual-wielding Force users. :P

mirrorchaos

i send a message through the ingame support on tor as soon as i was finished earlier on on this thread sending a message of support to the dev in question, they have treated me well over the years on that game, i figure i owe them enough to support them against these few deluded players even so.

jonsills

baelogventure wrote: »

SW:TOR gives you 12x exp on story missions.

I can live with the combat team getting threatened over nerfing the dual-wielding Force users. :P

Really? REALLY?!? You're okay with a man and his entire family having their lives placed in danger because of a stupid issue involving a video game???

I... I just don't... If I facepalmed myself half hard enough to express my disgust and confusion, I'd get a concussion.

taylor1701d

That's very disturbing behavior.
They say mental illness is on the rise.... Sigh

thecosmic1

taylor1701d wrote: »

That's very disturbing behavior.
They say mental illness is on the rise.... Sigh

The statistics are 1 out 5 people are dealing with some forum of mental illness in the US; ranging from mild depression all the way to schizophrenia - and that is before we even get into the various types of autism. And, unfortunately, gaming tends to draw-in a higher percentage of these people due to its "fantasy" environment. I am actually surprised we do not see more of this on gaming forums.

I always wonder what happened to This Kid, now 5 years later.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

grandnaguszek1

I was partaking in the discussion a little on the swtor forum (my handle over there is fdbgjfdhjgkjdhsg on the last few pages). Anyways, I noticed that there were only a couple people that seemed to think that the devs deserved it. The vast majority of people flamed them and supporetd the devs decision.
Now there seems to be another thread popping up about how the devs "didn't handle it properly" so I'll have to give that one a read.

Edit: never mind, it was a different thread I posted one that was similar)..

iconians

thecosmic1 wrote: »

The statistics are 1 out 5 people are dealing with some forum of mental illness in the US; ranging from mild depression all the way to schizophrenia - and that is before we even get into the various types of autism. And, unfortunately, gaming tends to draw-in a higher percentage of these people due to its "fantasy" environment. I am actually surprised we do not see more of this on gaming forums.

We don't see more of this on gaming forums because the Illuminati are forcing the lizard people to censor the Wow! signal using black budget cyberwarfare technology which has the side-effect of preventing the coded messages sent by the Beatles into the internet to warn us about Helter Skelter. They already got to John Lennon and George Harrison.

grylak

Looks like he pissed off Pac-Man. Never TRIBBLE off Pac-Man.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=363CdKbZ4wI





There are not enough facepalms for what happened with TOR. I know it's venomous on these forums, but at least the rage is kept on the forums/official channels and only directed towards those in the game, not their family. Even though I also sigh about that. But at least we don't drag families into it (I hope. I haven't heard any stories).

jellico1

Why not single out the bad apples and discipline them instead of blaming the community is my question

I have saw cryptic take abuse they should not have and nothing done to those abusing them

Is it that hard to ban someone ? or even give them a few weeks off the forums ?

iconians

jellico1 wrote: »

Why not single out the bad apples and discipline them instead of blaming the community is my question

I have saw cryptic take abuse they should not have and nothing done to those abusing them

Is it that hard to ban someone ? or even give them a few weeks off the forums ?

I don't always agree with you, but in this instance I do. I've always believed in more aggressive forum moderation.

Unfortunately, you'll then get the company in question under fire for censoring the opinions of those who disagree.

Because, there are some people who believe "Your whole family needs to be murdered for nerfing my game!" is the exact same thing as disagreeing with game design decisions.

"Well, it's just my opinion that your whole family needs to be murdered. I'm allowed to disagree with you."

grandnaguszek1

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=811340

I found the thread that discusses this further in depth.

gulberat

thecosmic1 wrote: »

The statistics are 1 out 5 people are dealing with some forum of mental illness in the US; ranging from mild depression all the way to schizophrenia - and that is before we even get into the various types of autism. And, unfortunately, gaming tends to draw-in a higher percentage of these people due to its "fantasy" environment. I am actually surprised we do not see more of this on gaming forums.

I always wonder what happened to This Kid, now 5 years later.

And sadly, people assume this is conduct all people with mental illness or other conditions would approve of or would carry out, even in their bad times. It's not. I know people with depression, bipolar, etc. who know very well this is wrong (and realize the avoidance of such temptations is a reason to continue with their treatment).

It could well be that there is untreated mental illness involved. OR the person(s) involved may simply have terminal craniorectal impaction syndrome from being so full of themselves and so filled with pointless rage. It's sad. But when it becomes a danger like this, it has to be punished. And I think the devs over there are absolutely right to make an example out of them in front of the community and crack the whip so that people don't dare get the idea they can try it again, and that if they do, there will be consequences.

mirrorchaos

iconians wrote: »

We don't see more of this on gaming forums because the Illuminati are forcing the lizard people to censor the Wow! signal using black budget cyberwarfare technology which has the side-effect of preventing the coded messages sent by the Beatles into the internet to warn us about Helter Skelter. They already got to John Lennon and George Harrison.

silliness aside for the moment, there are cases of kids who play these games and are unable to seperate what you see on the game from that of real life, especially when prodded enough by it into a serious rage moment. i mean when you see nerd rage, thats just one step from full out insanity and as you so colorfully put in your quote, the absurdness of the whole thing is there for anyone to see.

think of it the same as road rage, you get caught in traffic a few times, you think, oh well thats life, then it happens repeatedly until it starts becoming an irritation, eventually angry to outright insanity leading to some drivers being so reckless that they end up having no business on the roads.

or if you like in some pvp multiplayer games playing battlefield 2 or something like it, this other players repeated kills you enough to annoy you to such great lengths that you develop target fixation, so you end up in a jet following him, he crashes into the ground and you follow him into the ground anyway out of pure rage.

but as you stated, its absurd but it does happen.

thecosmic1

jellico1 wrote: »

Is it that hard to ban someone ? or even give them a few weeks off the forums ?

Banning a forum account does not really mean much if you have 7 other forum accounts you can use. When anyone can simply make a gmail account and create a new forum account in a minute it is difficult to enforce forum banning. I have seen it on this forum many times: someone gets banned and nerd raged back on with another account to yell at the Dev for banning them.

At the end of the day if you are going to allow FTP players to post on your forum you are going to end up with a lot of multiple accounts and no real way to enforce against them. You can initiate an ISP ban but that paints with a wide brush and can lock-out innocent people. And then you have all the Smartphone/Tablet users who can have multiple ISPs.

jellico1

iconians wrote: »

I don't always agree with you, but in this instance I do. I've always believed in more aggressive forum moderation.

Unfortunately, you'll then get the company in question under fire for censoring the opinions of those who disagree.

Because, there are some people who believe "Your whole family needs to be murdered for nerfing my game!" is the exact same thing as disagreeing with game design decisions.

"Well, it's just my opinion that your whole family needs to be murdered. I'm allowed to disagree with you."

---

---

many times we have been on the opposite sides of a debate

I think we were always civil and had good debates

Cryptic should be treated the same way by all forum posters

We may not agree . We post our idea's suggestions Debate the issue , No need for the toxic Bull
toward each other or toward cryptic Dev's

moonshadowdark

iconians wrote: »

I don't always agree with you, but in this instance I do. I've always believed in more aggressive forum moderation.

Unfortunately, you'll then get the company in question under fire for censoring the opinions of those who disagree.

Because, there are some people who believe "Your whole family needs to be murdered for nerfing my game!" is the exact same thing as disagreeing with game design decisions.

"Well, it's just my opinion that your whole family needs to be murdered. I'm allowed to disagree with you."

Man, that is dark.....

:eek:

markhawkman

The big difference between there and here is that (unless I read it wrong) the TOR guy actually gave the threat to the family and didn't just post on the forum....

taylor1701d

gulberat wrote: »

... and so filled with pointless rage. It's sad.

Its also scary, seems like this pointless rage is abundant online. You can see it in forums, game chat, news comment sections...blogs etc.
Theres a lot of anger in society today. But it appears more often then not, in an online environment. Where someone feels protected by anonymity.

markhawkman

taylor1701d wrote: »

Its also scary, seems like this pointless rage is abundant online. You can see it in forums, game chat, news comment sections...blogs etc.
Theres a lot of anger in society today. But it appears more often then not, in an online environment. Where someone feels protected by anonymity.

It's not just anonymity. Even when they use their own name, often people simply see no reason to care about the consequences of anything they say online.

But the case in the OP was apparently OFF line. which is the scary part.

gulberat

taylor1701d wrote: »

Its also scary, seems like this pointless rage is abundant online. You can see it in forums, game chat, news comment sections...blogs etc.
Theres a lot of anger in society today. But it appears more often then not, in an online environment. Where someone feels protected by anonymity.

I think that's exactly it: anonymity. That's one of the reasons I fear the government will intervene someday to end anonymity on the Internet--a draconian reaction I would not like, but I can too easily see how bureaucrats would think.

The scary part with news is, I think the Internet rage is partly to blame for the spillover into the traditional media, which further poisons the public discourse and even poisons the actual governmental process. I don't want to debate the political aspects though.

What I DO want to say is that we had better account for our own behavior before we are made to or it actually has real-life consequences, like a threat carried out, a person tormented to suicide, or other major social ramifications. We act like our behavior means nothing online. But in my opinion, while the *game* is a mere triviality on the scale of life, how we TREAT each other here is HIGH on that scale, and actually much more important than the game or any of its systems. One has no lasting repercussions. A nerf, bug, or outage ultimately aggravates, maybe alienates customers to leave, or makes them feel put out of money, but that's the extent of it. In contrast, the sticks and stones thing is a blatant, abuser-enabling lie. How we treat each other *lasts,* for better and for worse.

Whether we are kind or cruel in our interactions--I guarantee that is what people will remember about their experiences here long after the game is gone and we've forgotten how we did our builds and lost our muscle memories for piloting and shooting. So that is where our actions and words matter the most.