marcusdkane: You implied X.
thegrandnagus1: What is X?
marcusdkane: You know what X is!
thegrandnagus1: No, that's why I asked what X is.
marcusdkane: Stop trolling!
Is what I'm getting from that particular discussion...
But Bobby's "romantic" history is of one failed relationship after another. As I said, it fits perfectly into the profile of the closeted man struggling desperately to keep the door closed.
And trust me, if a new TRIBBLE X-Man had been introduced, the outcry would have been, "What, all the new characters have to be TRIBBLE now? SJW CONSPIRACY! MOUTH FOAMING!!!" (Hell, look at the outcry when the new Ms. Marvel was a Pakistani-American teenager who happened to be a semi-observant Muslim. Or the French-Armenian dude in Batman Inc.) So, we get a reconsideration (I wouldn't even call it a "retcon") of Bobby's background. Which gets people talking about the title, at the very least, so there you go.
Evilmark, assuming that is a full and complete reboot in your example where no prior material is in any way binding, the logic problems inherent in the way Marvel actually approached this (which I maintain were so badly covered for that it actually made the problem even more glaring) would no longer be an issue. In fact, any and all characters and concepts would become open to rewriting without any adherence to what came before.
If you do mean this kind of full reboot, I'd retire my objection in a heartbeat if that were done instead.
In support, I am going to step out on a limb here and say that at least where the character of Spock is concerned, JJ Abrams provided us an example of doing inter-universe contact and retconning/rebooting right. JJ didn't, for example, decide to make Spock full-blooded Vulcan v'tosh ka'tur or some other thing for some random reason and then have the two actually encounter each other and somehow try to explain it off and say A = B when it blatantly doesn't. Marvel, however, has IMO done the equivalent of that, plot-wise, and the article author just throws up his hands and goes, "Hey, that's comics for you, they're expected to be full of plot holes big enough to drive a tank through and anybody who points it out can go away!"
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As others have said: If the writers want to focus on an issue, there's no reason why they shouldn't, but they shouldn't be so lazy as to take an existing character and shoehorn a topic upon them.
Writers, editors, I don't really care which. My issue is with the industry(s) as a whole, regardless of who is actually 'carrying out the work'.
The problem is you are blaming the writers and saying they are "lazy", when in fact they are not the ones who get the make the call on any significant issue.
marcusdkane: You implied X.
thegrandnagus1: What is X?
marcusdkane: You know what X is!
thegrandnagus1: No, that's why I asked what X is.
marcusdkane: Stop trolling!
Is what I'm getting from that particular discussion...
But Bobby's "romantic" history is of one failed relationship after another. As I said, it fits perfectly into the profile of the closeted man struggling desperately to keep the door closed.
I'm getting too old for these forums, meh. In trying not to spit my soda out laughing, I almost wet myself instead.
So you're saying almost everybody that's straight is hiding that they're TRIBBLE and that almost everybody that's TRIBBLE is hiding that they're straight...
I'm getting too old for these forums, meh. In trying not to spit my soda out laughing, I almost wet myself instead.
So you're saying almost everybody that's straight is hiding that they're TRIBBLE and that almost everybody that's TRIBBLE is hiding that they're straight...
...curious thought process there.
.... I truly have no idea where you got that thought process from. There is nothing in the quoted post that states that.
marcusdkane: You implied X.
thegrandnagus1: What is X?
marcusdkane: You know what X is!
thegrandnagus1: No, that's why I asked what X is.
marcusdkane: Stop trolling!
Is what I'm getting from that particular discussion...
the fact that you feel the need to insult people over how they handle fictional characters say much more about you than it ever will about them.
Has negative implications, which I took offense to. If that is not the case, all thegrandnagus has to do, is say: "I'm sorry, I wasn't meaning to imply anything negative, and was not attempting to insult you..." Especially, since as mentioned above, the term 'hack' is fitting to the writers in question, and is being used discriptively, not demeaningly.
I've given my opinion on the topic, as well as my opinion of thegrandnagus's conduct, so do not need to say anything else.
But Bobby's "romantic" history is of one failed relationship after another. As I said, it fits perfectly into the profile of the closeted man struggling desperately to keep the door closed.
Somebody with a history of failed heterosexual relationships is obviously struggling to hide that they are a homosexual...that's the profile that jonsilis has offered up...folks with failed relationships are hiding something. And since straight folks aren't the only people that might have that history of failed relationships, then it follows that TRIBBLE people with a history of failed relationships are struggling desperately to keep the door open...cause they're actually straight. Or is it something you'd say only applies to heterosexuals with relationship issues?
Somebody with a history of failed heterosexual relationships is obviously struggling to hide that they are a homosexual...that's the profile that jonsilis has offered up...folks with failed relationships are hiding something. And since straight folks aren't the only people that might have that history of failed relationships, then it follows that TRIBBLE people with a history of failed relationships are struggling desperately to keep the door open...cause they're actually straight.
That's under the assumption that Mr. Sills thinks homosexuality is an affliction that is ingrained since birth, or not actively recognized during the dating process.
It could also imply that said failures might make someone feel rejected by the opposite sex, and want to find comfort in the same sex, therefore taking a step, or leap, toward homosexuality.
... so Iceman turns out to be TRIBBLE, or at least bi.
He's had relationships with several women over the years, but apparently that was just an act. This really doesn't bother me.
The only thing that bothers me is that Jean Grey would out him using her telepathy. That seems unusual for her to do given her extensive training with Professor Xavier. You'd think with all of that discretion telepaths with the X-Men have, especially in regards to their deepest secrets they don't want anyone to know about, she'd be a little more sensitive to his emotions and not use her telepathy in that fashion -- or at the very least keep her mouth shut and keep that to herself.
It's also pretty unusual that anybody in the X-Men would care. They live in a world where humanity hates and fears mutants... why would their sexual preference even come close to the top of their daily struggles? They fight giant robots and aliens who try to destroy the planet. Why would anyone have that kind of hang-up?
Blowing up buildings using your mind is socially acceptable, but being attracted to the same gender and all of a sudden we have to fire up the controversy alarm in the X-Men.
But Bobby's "romantic" history is of one failed relationship after another. As I said, it fits perfectly into the profile of the closeted man struggling desperately to keep the door closed.
And trust me, if a new TRIBBLE X-Man had been introduced, the outcry would have been, "What, all the new characters have to be TRIBBLE now? SJW CONSPIRACY! MOUTH FOAMING!!!"
A history of failed relationships does not mean TRIBBLE, there are limitless reasons relationships fail. And any outcry could be avoided by introducing a batch of new characters, with one or two being TRIBBLE (possibly a couple?).
If they were dead set on making prime iceman (or whatever marvel calls their original universe) TRIBBLE, the only way it would make sense would be to reveal that he's bisexual ... and to my knowledge bisexual men are the group with the least representation in comics, as almost all (ARE there any bi male characters in comics?) bisexuals depicted are female.
Not sure why this needs to be in every comic or why this is really a big thing/
because what they can make in a reletively young change in social attitudes towards same sex coupling, which is still an explosive point in many corners, they can use that to spin the media and marketing into a frenzy by making the most explosive and or ludicrous attempts to get those stories out about homosexuality and lesbianism within a cartoon. the more its ntoiced and talked about the more money they make and the more high profile it gets.
Basically using social changes as an excuse to get quick rich, rather disgusting attitude but thats what money does to once good people, it turns them evil.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
because what they can make in a reletively young change in social attitudes towards same sex coupling, which is still an explosive point in many corners, they can use that to spin the media and marketing into a frenzy by making the most explosive and or ludicrous attempts to get those stories out about homosexuality and lesbianism within a cartoon. the more its ntoiced and talked about the more money they make and the more high profile it gets. basically using social changes as an excuse to get quick rich, rather disgusting attitude, but thats what money does to once good people, it turns them evil.
Of course, it falls back on them because their marketing crowd is mostly the people that would say 'Meh' or 'Alright, that's... progressive' to such a change.
Now, if they made a movie out of the New Testament and made Jesus homosexual, that would cause controversy.
Of course, it falls back on them because their marketing crowd is mostly the people that would say 'Meh' or 'Alright, that's... progressive' to such a change.
Now, if they made a movie out of the New Testament and made Jesus homosexual, that would cause controversy.
it depends, again i use the words "explosive" and or " ludicrous", meaning going for outragous and outlandish ideas to explore these stories and get most reaction possible.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Never heard of them, but I'm also not huge on the comics themselves ... kinda hard to get into with all the history they have built up, which is why I loved the Ultimate Universe at first.
But that just emphasizes my point, making a well known male character bisexual could potentially have a bigger positive impact than making him TRIBBLE.
I'm getting too old for these forums, meh. In trying not to spit my soda out laughing, I almost wet myself instead.
So you're saying almost everybody that's straight is hiding that they're TRIBBLE and that almost everybody that's TRIBBLE is hiding that they're straight...
...curious thought process there.
I think if "failed relationships" were an indicator of homosexuality in the Marvel universe, I'd say the Marvel universe in its entirety is running at 5,000 Kiloliberaces.
Of course, it falls back on them because their marketing crowd is mostly the people that would say 'Meh' or 'Alright, that's... progressive' to such a change.
Now, if they made a movie out of the New Testament and made Jesus homosexual, that would cause controversy.
That would cause way more than just controversy ... some people go way over board trying to push their own ideals on everyone else, imagine how someone like that would react to what you suggested. I'd enjoy my popcorn while watching the news though, lol.
It's also pretty unusual that anybody in the X-Men would care. They live in a world where humanity hates and fears mutants... why would their sexual preference even come close to the top of their daily struggles? They fight giant robots and aliens who try to destroy the planet. Why would anyone have that kind of hang-up?
It's far too easy for a group who is united under a common cause to be divided by some bs issue. The X-Men overall would likely do much better with it but they're not immune to their own prejudices.
Not having read the comic myself, and with no intention to do so, I don't have the context to work off of.
A history of failed relationships does not mean TRIBBLE, there are limitless reasons relationships fail.
But it is still an example that works. It's not the best one Marvel could have used but it is the one that best fits outside the possibility of being bi.
But it is still an example that works. It's not the best one Marvel could have used but it is the one that best fits outside the possibility of being bi.
I think it's a horrible example and a "correlation equals causation" fallacy. You could make that case for any character in Marvel based on their past relationship status.
Just glance at random biographies in the Marvel wiki and more than likely you'll come across their "Relationships" part of their article. If anyone has had more than 1 love interest, you can establish they have a history of failed relationships.
To say it's an example that "works" is like saying Bobby Drake eats food, drinks water, and breathes air -- just like all TRIBBLE people do. People have failed relationships. It's part of life.
It also implies TRIBBLE people don't have failed relationships. Which would also be a misconception.
I think it's a horrible example and a "correlation equals causation" fallacy. You could make that case for any character in Marvel based on their past relationship status.
Just glance at random biographies in the Marvel wiki and more than likely you'll come across their "Relationships" part of their article. If anyone has had more than 1 love interest, you can establish they have a history of failed relationships.
To say it's an example that "works" is like saying Bobby Drake eats food, drinks water, and breathes air -- just like all TRIBBLE people do. People have failed relationships. It's part of life.
It also implies TRIBBLE people don't have failed relationships. Which would also be a misconception.
I think Brian Michael Bendis is the one reading too deeply into it. He's using a completely normal social behavior to reason out a character's 'new' sexuality that was not previously there.
If someone with mononucleosis runs a fever of 103 degrees F, that does not therefore mean that everyone with a 103-degree fever has mono.
No, a history of failed relationships does not of itself indicate homosexuality. However, it would be indicative of a problem of some sort with the individual; and there are multiple cases of men with exactly such histories caused by their own desperate attempts to hide their nature from themselves. (And why would someone do that? Take a look at the posts in here - where homosexuality is described as an "affliction", and the majority of the posters seem to feel that the character is somehow damaged by this revelation.)
And nobody said the X-Men would have a problem with it; in fact, Jean was urging Bobby to be open about it. Bobby has an issue, because he comes from 1963.
However, it would be indicative of a problem with the individual; and there are multiple cases of men with exactly such histories caused by their own desperate attempts to hide their nature from themselves.
It could be indicative that Bobby Drake has horrible taste in women. It could be that he's really an outer space Shi'ar-Kree Alien Sleeper Agent who simply isn't compatible with Earthlings. It could be that maybe Bobby Drake just doesn't shower regularly or fails to put the toilet seat back down.
Or it could be indicative that he's in the closet.
And nobody said the X-Men would have a problem with it; in fact, Jean was urging Bobby to be open about it. Bobby has an issue, because he comes from 1963.
That's where my brain starts to hurt. He's either suffering from Bart Simpson syndrome, or it's more time travel fiction.
All in all, I think Bendis is not that great of a writer. But I personally don't mind if Bobby Drake is straight, TRIBBLE, bi, or Shi'ar-Kree Alien Sleeper Agent.
And nobody said the X-Men would have a problem with it; in fact, Jean was urging Bobby to be open about it. Bobby has an issue, because he comes from 1963.
If someone with mononucleosis runs a fever of 103 degrees F, that does not therefore mean that everyone with a 103-degree fever has mono.
No, a history of failed relationships does not of itself indicate homosexuality. However, it would be indicative of a problem of some sort with the individual; and there are multiple cases of men with exactly such histories caused by their own desperate attempts to hide their nature from themselves. (And why would someone do that? Take a look at the posts in here - where homosexuality is described as an "affliction", and the majority of the posters seem to feel that the character is somehow damaged by this revelation.)
And nobody said the X-Men would have a problem with it; in fact, Jean was urging Bobby to be open about it. Bobby has an issue, because he comes from 1963.
I do not feel the character is damaged by this, but I do feel the series as a whole has been damaged by poor writing. As I said previously, it could have potentially had a greater impact, and been infinitely more plausible, if he had been revealed as bisexual, as bisexual men are highly under represented in most media.
The problem is the writer was not concerned with actually making a statement about society, this was something done for shock value only.
Your argument regarding failed relationships can apply to almost all fictional characters that appear in a long series, as break ups, hook ups, cheating, etc all serve to create drama. In the CWs Arrow, Oliver has been with what, 4 or 5 different women since returning to Starling City? There's clearly no chance of him being TRIBBLE, but your argument would suggest otherwise. It's poor writing to make a decision based on a characteristic that can apply to 90% of fictional characters.
Comments
thegrandnagus1: What is X?
marcusdkane: You know what X is!
thegrandnagus1: No, that's why I asked what X is.
marcusdkane: Stop trolling!
Is what I'm getting from that particular discussion...
And trust me, if a new TRIBBLE X-Man had been introduced, the outcry would have been, "What, all the new characters have to be TRIBBLE now? SJW CONSPIRACY! MOUTH FOAMING!!!" (Hell, look at the outcry when the new Ms. Marvel was a Pakistani-American teenager who happened to be a semi-observant Muslim. Or the French-Armenian dude in Batman Inc.) So, we get a reconsideration (I wouldn't even call it a "retcon") of Bobby's background. Which gets people talking about the title, at the very least, so there you go.
If you do mean this kind of full reboot, I'd retire my objection in a heartbeat if that were done instead.
In support, I am going to step out on a limb here and say that at least where the character of Spock is concerned, JJ Abrams provided us an example of doing inter-universe contact and retconning/rebooting right. JJ didn't, for example, decide to make Spock full-blooded Vulcan v'tosh ka'tur or some other thing for some random reason and then have the two actually encounter each other and somehow try to explain it off and say A = B when it blatantly doesn't. Marvel, however, has IMO done the equivalent of that, plot-wise, and the article author just throws up his hands and goes, "Hey, that's comics for you, they're expected to be full of plot holes big enough to drive a tank through and anybody who points it out can go away!"
Christian Gaming Community Fleets--Faith, Fun, and Fellowship! See the website and PM for more. :-)
Proudly F2P. Signature image by gulberat. Avatar image by balsavor.deviantart.com.
Please keep this discussion civil and on topic or the thread will be closed.
If someone posts something offensive, please do not reply. Report the post to a Mod and we will handle it. See my sig for how to send a PM.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
The problem is you are blaming the writers and saying they are "lazy", when in fact they are not the ones who get the make the call on any significant issue.
LOL yeah; it's funny. Sad, but funny.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
I'm getting too old for these forums, meh. In trying not to spit my soda out laughing, I almost wet myself instead.
So you're saying almost everybody that's straight is hiding that they're TRIBBLE and that almost everybody that's TRIBBLE is hiding that they're straight...
...curious thought process there.
.... I truly have no idea where you got that thought process from. There is nothing in the quoted post that states that.
Perhaps you need glasses as well as a catheter?:P
I've given my opinion on the topic, as well as my opinion of thegrandnagus's conduct, so do not need to say anything else.
You're joking, right? Cause I even quoted it...
Somebody with a history of failed heterosexual relationships is obviously struggling to hide that they are a homosexual...that's the profile that jonsilis has offered up...folks with failed relationships are hiding something. And since straight folks aren't the only people that might have that history of failed relationships, then it follows that TRIBBLE people with a history of failed relationships are struggling desperately to keep the door open...cause they're actually straight. Or is it something you'd say only applies to heterosexuals with relationship issues?
That's under the assumption that Mr. Sills thinks homosexuality is an affliction that is ingrained since birth, or not actively recognized during the dating process.
It could also imply that said failures might make someone feel rejected by the opposite sex, and want to find comfort in the same sex, therefore taking a step, or leap, toward homosexuality.
... so Iceman turns out to be TRIBBLE, or at least bi.
He's had relationships with several women over the years, but apparently that was just an act. This really doesn't bother me.
The only thing that bothers me is that Jean Grey would out him using her telepathy. That seems unusual for her to do given her extensive training with Professor Xavier. You'd think with all of that discretion telepaths with the X-Men have, especially in regards to their deepest secrets they don't want anyone to know about, she'd be a little more sensitive to his emotions and not use her telepathy in that fashion -- or at the very least keep her mouth shut and keep that to herself.
It's also pretty unusual that anybody in the X-Men would care. They live in a world where humanity hates and fears mutants... why would their sexual preference even come close to the top of their daily struggles? They fight giant robots and aliens who try to destroy the planet. Why would anyone have that kind of hang-up?
Blowing up buildings using your mind is socially acceptable, but being attracted to the same gender and all of a sudden we have to fire up the controversy alarm in the X-Men.
A history of failed relationships does not mean TRIBBLE, there are limitless reasons relationships fail. And any outcry could be avoided by introducing a batch of new characters, with one or two being TRIBBLE (possibly a couple?).
If they were dead set on making prime iceman (or whatever marvel calls their original universe) TRIBBLE, the only way it would make sense would be to reveal that he's bisexual ... and to my knowledge bisexual men are the group with the least representation in comics, as almost all (ARE there any bi male characters in comics?) bisexuals depicted are female.
Rictor and Daken are both bi-sexual males.
because what they can make in a reletively young change in social attitudes towards same sex coupling, which is still an explosive point in many corners, they can use that to spin the media and marketing into a frenzy by making the most explosive and or ludicrous attempts to get those stories out about homosexuality and lesbianism within a cartoon. the more its ntoiced and talked about the more money they make and the more high profile it gets.
Basically using social changes as an excuse to get quick rich, rather disgusting attitude but thats what money does to once good people, it turns them evil.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Of course, it falls back on them because their marketing crowd is mostly the people that would say 'Meh' or 'Alright, that's... progressive' to such a change.
Now, if they made a movie out of the New Testament and made Jesus homosexual, that would cause controversy.
it depends, again i use the words "explosive" and or " ludicrous", meaning going for outragous and outlandish ideas to explore these stories and get most reaction possible.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Never heard of them, but I'm also not huge on the comics themselves ... kinda hard to get into with all the history they have built up, which is why I loved the Ultimate Universe at first.
But that just emphasizes my point, making a well known male character bisexual could potentially have a bigger positive impact than making him TRIBBLE.
I think if "failed relationships" were an indicator of homosexuality in the Marvel universe, I'd say the Marvel universe in its entirety is running at 5,000 Kiloliberaces.
That would cause way more than just controversy ... some people go way over board trying to push their own ideals on everyone else, imagine how someone like that would react to what you suggested. I'd enjoy my popcorn while watching the news though, lol.
It's far too easy for a group who is united under a common cause to be divided by some bs issue. The X-Men overall would likely do much better with it but they're not immune to their own prejudices.
Not having read the comic myself, and with no intention to do so, I don't have the context to work off of.
But it is still an example that works. It's not the best one Marvel could have used but it is the one that best fits outside the possibility of being bi.
I think it's a horrible example and a "correlation equals causation" fallacy. You could make that case for any character in Marvel based on their past relationship status.
Just glance at random biographies in the Marvel wiki and more than likely you'll come across their "Relationships" part of their article. If anyone has had more than 1 love interest, you can establish they have a history of failed relationships.
To say it's an example that "works" is like saying Bobby Drake eats food, drinks water, and breathes air -- just like all TRIBBLE people do. People have failed relationships. It's part of life.
It also implies TRIBBLE people don't have failed relationships. Which would also be a misconception.
You are so reading too deeply into this.
I think Brian Michael Bendis is the one reading too deeply into it. He's using a completely normal social behavior to reason out a character's 'new' sexuality that was not previously there.
No, a history of failed relationships does not of itself indicate homosexuality. However, it would be indicative of a problem of some sort with the individual; and there are multiple cases of men with exactly such histories caused by their own desperate attempts to hide their nature from themselves. (And why would someone do that? Take a look at the posts in here - where homosexuality is described as an "affliction", and the majority of the posters seem to feel that the character is somehow damaged by this revelation.)
And nobody said the X-Men would have a problem with it; in fact, Jean was urging Bobby to be open about it. Bobby has an issue, because he comes from 1963.
It could be indicative that Bobby Drake has horrible taste in women. It could be that he's really an outer space Shi'ar-Kree Alien Sleeper Agent who simply isn't compatible with Earthlings. It could be that maybe Bobby Drake just doesn't shower regularly or fails to put the toilet seat back down.
Or it could be indicative that he's in the closet.
That's where my brain starts to hurt. He's either suffering from Bart Simpson syndrome, or it's more time travel fiction.
All in all, I think Bendis is not that great of a writer. But I personally don't mind if Bobby Drake is straight, TRIBBLE, bi, or Shi'ar-Kree Alien Sleeper Agent.
Actually its more like early 2000s now.
Thanks sliding time scale.
A year ago next week i took all my marvel and DC stuff and consigned them to the flame i took them placed them in a barrel and poured gas and lit.
Im talking comic collections , games , and other merchandise poof up in smoke and have refused to buy , watch or care for anything marvel or DC.
And this this Iceman coming out of the closet? Marvel and DC have become platforms for PC propaganda .
And this new "revelation" Just confirms i did the right thing last year and would gladly do it again.
So the question is i care why?
I do not feel the character is damaged by this, but I do feel the series as a whole has been damaged by poor writing. As I said previously, it could have potentially had a greater impact, and been infinitely more plausible, if he had been revealed as bisexual, as bisexual men are highly under represented in most media.
The problem is the writer was not concerned with actually making a statement about society, this was something done for shock value only.
Your argument regarding failed relationships can apply to almost all fictional characters that appear in a long series, as break ups, hook ups, cheating, etc all serve to create drama. In the CWs Arrow, Oliver has been with what, 4 or 5 different women since returning to Starling City? There's clearly no chance of him being TRIBBLE, but your argument would suggest otherwise. It's poor writing to make a decision based on a characteristic that can apply to 90% of fictional characters.