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What is the Temporal Intelligence Agency? Cray part of wrong organization

gbw2318gbw2318 Member Posts: 126 Arc User
Star Trek canon has established the Department of Temporal Investigations as the Federation's go to agency for all temporal phenomena. Its been established that it's separate from Starfleet - which is why the two agents, Lucsly and Dulmur, were wearing gray civilian suits instead of Starfleet uniforms when they visited DS9 in the episode Trials and Tribble-ations. So what is the Temporal Intelligence Agency that Philip Cray is a part of? And where did it come from all of a sudden?

The very idea of a Temporal Intelligence Agency seems to contradict the Temporal Prime Directive , and would bring down the likes of the future agencies that are home to the USS Relativity in the 29th Century, and the agency Daniels was part of in the 31st Century down on those in the 25th Century messing about in the timeline, rather like the USS Pastak went back to make sure the Enterprise-C made it back into the temporal anomaly in the mission 'Temporal Ambassador'.
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  • crappyturbocrappyturbo Member Posts: 201 Arc User
    edited April 2015
    The Temporal Intelligence Agency could be a sub set of Starfleet Intelligence, for an in game link.

    Cryptic probably needed it because that way they only need 1 set of lines, other than character introduction, for each temporal intelligence NPC.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,577 Community Moderator
    edited April 2015
    It could be that Temporal Investigations is the civilian side, while Temporal Intelligence is the military side.
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  • gbw2318gbw2318 Member Posts: 126 Arc User
    edited April 2015
    The Temporal Intelligence Agency could be a sub set of Starfleet Intelligence, for an in game link.

    Cryptic probably needed it because that way they only need 1 set of lines, other than character introduction, for each temporal intelligence NPC.
    rattler2 wrote: »
    It could be that Temporal Investigations is the civilian side, while Temporal Intelligence is the military side.
    DTI (Department of Temporal Investigations) was overseeing Starfleet's temporal encounters, and it makes more sense that the United Federation of Planets would have an exclusively civilian department overseeing the exploration/military Starfleet as well as civilian encounters with temporal phenomena. Also, the fact that this 'Temporal Intelligence Agency' is called an 'agency' argues that it isn't supposed to be part of a larger intelligence organization.

    I would think the Federation would be wary of having Starfleet having its own temporal agency, at least this relatively soon after Janeway and Voyager's insane amount of temporal encounters in the Delta Quadrant and their willingness to keep changing their own future along the way. It also doesn't help that Starfleet deliberately tried a time travel exploration mission in Kirk's day to 1968 and almost ended up causing World War 3 by the well meaning but ultimately foolish attempts to prevent Gary Seven's mission in TOS episode Assignment: Earth. Not to mention their previous blundering in 1969 in Tomorrow is Yesterday. Then Kirk and crew also deliberately brought Dr. Gillian Taylor forward from 1986 when they went back to get a couple of humpback whales in ST IV: The Voyage Home. After all of that, I wouldn't think the Federation civilian government would trust Starfleet with time travel for decades at least, instead relying on the civilian DTI to oversee them.
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 9,427 Arc User
    edited April 2015
    Canon does not establish when the Temporal Prime Directive came into effect. It clearly did not exist in TNG, as Picard was only guessing at such a directive existing in the future as an explanation for why the time traveler Rasmussen didn't help them save some planet from some disaster. The 29th century dudes in Voyager are clearly enforcing it.

    So it came into existence somewhere between the 24th and the 29th century. While the directive is certainly known since Voyager's time at least, it isn't clear if it is in effect in that time or if its just the future dudes told them of it. Or in other words, do people refer to it because it already exists, or because it exists for the uber-tech time cops from the future who will come stop you*?

    * Except of course, when the plot calls for the timeline to be changed. ;)
  • gbw2318gbw2318 Member Posts: 126 Arc User
    edited April 2015
    warpangel wrote: »
    Canon does not establish when the Temporal Prime Directive came into effect. It clearly did not exist in TNG, as Picard was only guessing at such a directive existing in the future as an explanation for why the time traveler Rasmussen didn't help them save some planet from some disaster. The 29th century dudes in Voyager are clearly enforcing it.

    So it came into existence somewhere between the 24th and the 29th century. While the directive is certainly known since Voyager's time at least, it isn't clear if it is in effect in that time or if its just the future dudes told them of it. Or in other words, do people refer to it because it already exists, or because it exists for the uber-tech time cops from the future who will come stop you*?

    * Except of course, when the plot calls for the timeline to be changed. ;)
    When Sisko, Bashir and Dax went back to 2024 from 2371, the temporal displacement policy came up when Bashir wished they could help the hundreds of people who would be killed in DS9 Past Tense. Also in 2371, Janeway reined in Tom Paris by quoting the Prime Directive when he wanted to warn people that their world was going to be destroyed in VOY Time and Again.

    Regardless, we know that it's in effect for the Temporal Integrity Commission in the 29th Century and they have the capability to monitor the timeline. They're also willing to enforce it with extreme prejudice, as witnessed by their willingness to destroy Voyager when they thought they had come to the 29th Century and created a temporal explosion that destroyed the Sol System, as well as their willingness to arrest somebody's present self for what their future self was going to do.
  • stohenrikstohenrik Member Posts: 50 Arc User
    edited April 2015
    Or perhaps what is going on with our Delta characters is supposed to happen, what with predestination paradox and all that.

    Could be that the dudes from the 29th (or later) century knows it'll happen, and have to let it happen, because that's what leads up to the temporal prime directive and their organizations?

    If it didn't happen, we could face someone from the future coming back, to make sure that it happened, because they believe it's supposed to happen.

    Which would make another predestination paradox, with the future temporal guardians causing a temporal issue, because causing that issue is what leads to them preventing issues....

    OK, after that last sentence, I'm actually leaning towards Janeway's opinion regarding to time travel: It's too much of a head-ache >_<
  • crappyturbocrappyturbo Member Posts: 201 Arc User
    edited April 2015
    @stohenrik Star Trek temporal paradoxes are nothing compared to some of the ones in Dr. Who.
    I mean take some of the stories from that show and unleash them on Trek, then watch the migraines begin
  • gbw2318gbw2318 Member Posts: 126 Arc User
    edited April 2015
    stohenrik wrote: »
    Or perhaps what is going on with our Delta characters is supposed to happen, what with predestination paradox and all that.

    Could be that the dudes from the 29th (or later) century knows it'll happen, and have to let it happen, because that's what leads up to the temporal prime directive and their organizations?
    I'm not going against the Delta recruits and their retrocausal loops - those things exist regardless of outside influence. I'm just saying that this Temporal Intelligence Agency has no reason to exist, not when there is already the Department of Temporal Investigations and all the reasons I've already stated above - they've even mentioned Temporal Investigations in previous missions, like the whole thing with B'vat and the Guardian of Forever.

    Retrocausal loops cause headaches for those assigned to oversee the timeline, but they recognize that they have to be allowed to happen or there could be dire consequences to the timeline by creating a paradox that could create another quantum reality that could overwrite the primary timeline, or even fracture space-time throughout entire sectors.
  • stohenrikstohenrik Member Posts: 50 Arc User
    edited April 2015
    @stohenrik Star Trek temporal paradoxes are nothing compared to some of the ones in Dr. Who.
    I mean take some of the stories from that show and unleash them on Trek, then watch the migraines begin
    I love Doctor Who as well :P
    gbw2318 wrote: »
    I'm just saying that this Temporal Intelligence Agency has no reason to exist, not when there is already the Department of Temporal Investigations
    What can we say? It's governmental stuff (and probably american-influenced to make it even worse).

    Try to list all the investigation and intelligence agencies that the US, for example, has. You can even limit them to a specific thing, like foreign intelligence.
    You'll quickly realize that STO has room for at least another half-dozen agencies doing gods-knows-what to the poor timeline - which isn't really a strict line, more some wibly wobly timey wimey stuff :D
  • staq16staq16 Member Posts: 1,181 Arc User
    edited April 2015
    It's not just Starfleet.

    Pocket Books' novel-verse has established the Poj'huBoq (I could be getting it wrong, doing it from memory) as the Klingon counterpart to the DTI. Given that they've lifted other elements from the novels, it's a shame they didn't do the same here.
  • gbw2318gbw2318 Member Posts: 126 Arc User
    edited April 2015
    stohenrik wrote: »
    What can we say? It's governmental stuff (and probably american-influenced to make it even worse).

    Try to list all the investigation and intelligence agencies that the US, for example, has. You can even limit them to a specific thing, like foreign intelligence.
    You'll quickly realize that STO has room for at least another half-dozen agencies doing gods-knows-what to the poor timeline - which isn't really a strict line, more some wibly wobly timey wimey stuff :D
    Yeah, but this is the United Federation of Planets, not the United States of America. They've used centuries more Human experience and the experience of at least hundreds of other cultures to streamline their government more. Starfleet is intended to be oriented towards exploration first with military action only when necessary. Not the type of organization to stick its spoon into every pot, as it were. And they had Philip Crey wearing a Starfleet uniform.
    staq16 wrote: »
    It's not just Starfleet.

    Pocket Books' novel-verse has established the Poj'huBoq (I could be getting it wrong, doing it from memory) as the Klingon counterpart to the DTI. Given that they've lifted other elements from the novels, it's a shame they didn't do the same here.
    It's poH HubwoQ, the Klingon Time Defense Authority. And the Romulans have the Temporal Assessment Group. I've become somewhat resigned to the fact that STO and the novel-verse don't coordinate with each other - after all, in the novels the Elachi and their motivations are a bit different than in STO, and Elachi isn't even their species' name. But yes, lifting those names and applying them to STO would be easy enough considering that they have added characters from the novel-verse before, like Mackenzie Calhoun who shows up on K-7, and Phillipa Matthias who is the counselor aboard Va'Kel Shon's Enterprise-F. They even cooperated earlier on, since the Romulan world Virinat has appeared in both, and the STO novel mentioned the novel-verse's Borg blitzkrieg in 2381 as an alternate timeline.

    What's bothering me is that both STO and the novels use the various Star Trek series and movies as their base and build from there. Throwing this brand new organization in out of nowhere doesn't fit, especially as they themselves had Admiral Quinn mention the DTI before during B'Vat's messing with the Guardian of Forever. Admittedly, in the novels the name of the 31st Century agency that Daniels came from was called the Temporal Intelligence Agency, but that's 600 years in the future from 2410 - and they're civilian, not Starfleet, just like the DTI. And besides, the Temporal Integrity Commission that the USS Relativity was part of in VOY is in the way in the 29th Century, and we know they exist because the USS Pastak came back in 'Temporal Ambassador'. STO isn't keeping to their own history in this case.
  • stohenrikstohenrik Member Posts: 50 Arc User
    edited April 2015
    gbw2318 wrote: »
    They've used centuries more Human experience and the experience of at least hundreds of other cultures to streamline their government more.
    That's not how government/bureaucracy works.... They've had centuries to add more departments that interfere with each other, and make redundant and rules doing self-contradiction with each other and themselves.

    If you hire a bureaucrat to streamline processes, then before long said processes will require an additional 2 bureaucrats. The now 3 bureaucrats will then continue their work, and will thus need another 4 bureaucrats, a lawyer and an economist in addition to handle the bureaucratic workload, manage the expenses and interpret the rules they made themselves.
    These nine people will then....

    And so it begins....
  • gbw2318gbw2318 Member Posts: 126 Arc User
    edited April 2015
    stohenrik wrote: »
    That's not how government/bureaucracy works.... They've had centuries to add more departments that interfere with each other, and make redundant and rules doing self-contradiction with each other and themselves.

    If you hire a bureaucrat to streamline processes, then before long said processes will require an additional 2 bureaucrats. The now 3 bureaucrats will then continue their work, and will thus need another 4 bureaucrats, a lawyer and an economist in addition to handle the bureaucratic workload, manage the expenses and interpret the rules they made themselves.
    These nine people will then....

    And so it begins....
    But that's not how the Federation works. Not only will Humans have learned from the 20th and 21st Centuries of failed government policies, as well as the lessons of the Third World War, they have the influence of the likes of the Vulcans to point out what would be logical, then the Tellarites who will argue up into down in any forum making a streamlining of government extremely necessary, and the Andorians who have little patience for slow bureaucracy. And those are just among the founding worlds. IDIC, Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.
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