ladymyajha:
I have no problem with most of that. The main thing that irks me is how starfleet has ben portrayed. Vulcans saying its Logical to take lives rather than finding a alternative. None of the real "Hail the alien ship." or "They are powering up weapons!" before opening fire on it. Like I can understand some of it, borg for example, but even in the books, movies, and tv shows they always tried to talk to em first. That is what irks me the most about the federation side of the game. And it is what keeps me from playing a federation character. It just doesn't feel right.
So no it's not facism nor has the Federation gone looking for a fight. Generally though the fight is brough to them... and the Federation isn't afraid to do whatever is necessary to defend themselves and their allies from the aggressors.
This about sums it up... Despite what people may think, even as far back as ToS, the Federation has not been afraid to stand their ground and fight when not presented any other option...
Anyone who denies Starfleet is a military organisation and ready for war, when forced into it, is deluding themselves... Fascist however, is entirely not the case...
It seems the biggest threat for the STO universe is bad story telling (Joke here, do not flame if you don't like it). Serious now, here we go.
'Intelligence indicates that Iconians numbers are few'. So if there are few of them, how are they a threat. This is a classic example of projection. Make everybody think X, Y or Z is a threat and you can go after them and this make you, yourself as the threat. Are we hungry for a war?
'Indicates' Oh, are we not sure. What if they are not few? We may end in a war where we are outnumbered.
So here are the questions.
How many are there. Do we outnumber them, how come they are a threat to us?
Are the expansive? Why, what do they need?
Genral principle. Know your enemy. Perhaps he isn't afterall your enemy and if he is, you should know what he is and what he can.
'Intelligence indicates that Iconians numbers are few'.
This to me is in reference to the Iconians themselves, and not their servitors...
The Masters might be few in number, but there's nothing to indicate just how much fodder there is at their disposal... The Heralds, Elachi, Solanae and Tal Shiar are but 4 that we know of...
LOL, the notion of DS9 "ruining Star Trek making it warmongering" is so TRIBBLE. Star Trek even before DS9 aired was full of conflict, skirmishes, many references to past wars.
TOS era and its movies? The Klingons and Federation were at it plenty of times and the Klingons were the first of the major Non-Federation races that were political and military rivals, enemies of the Federation. Over Organia, you can see Kirk REALLY ramping things up to ensure the Federation had a good starting position 'WHEN' war came with the Klingons, not 'IF." Kor, his Klingon counterpart, was very much the same way. When it was stopped, Kor laments to Kirk that the war would have been glorious. The Klingons would go on to be an issue the Federation would constantly face even through the movies.
Also, don't forget the Romulans with their 2 TOS showings. The first one "Balance of Terror" goes into detail of early Federation-Romulan relations, i.e. WAR. The first war was over long ago but still gathers very strong emotions and can only make it seem that it was a bitterly fought war. The Romulans in TOS as stated by Spock, were extremely aggressive. The Federation, even in the ideal pursuit of peace, must never, EVER dare show weakness to the militant, aggressive Romulans for it will be taken as a sign of weakness and only invites even more aggressive actions. The Romulans weren't just fielding, testing their new warbird on some target drones/ships. They were testing it in actual combat against the very same Federation that they had a Peace Treaty with, blatantly crossing the Neutral Zone into Federation territory, attacking and destroying Federation installations and personnel, and very nearly destroying the Enterprise.
TNG? It makes references to past wars, 2 foremost coming to mind:
1. The Shelliak.
2. The bigger one, the Federation-Cardassian War which was fairly recent to TNG timeframe. Close enough that a number of Starfleet personnel were veterans of that war, one that seemed to leave lots of bitterness, resentment.
Anyways, before DS9, there had been plenty of enough fighting.
And I want to leave with this: When the Star Trek movies first started coming out, TMP was pretty much a 2 hour version of a TV episode. It was very much a disappointment. Then came the much more militant The Wrath of Khan, even down to the much more military looking uniforms of that movie compared to the pajamas of TMP. TWOK did VERY WELL and is still upheld as the best or among the best of Star Trek productions.
Starfleet has always had a bent toward a mixture of gunboat diplomacy, showing the flag, and negotiation from strength.
Ahhh, but what many don't ask is "where did that strength come from and why ?" .
I mean apart from the show's purpose (to tell a tale of adventure and morality) , the Federation (and it's ships) are set up in a way that they are able to meet head to head entire empires that are dedicated to expansionalism through warfare .
Fans of Trek have two distinct ideas about what Starfleet is:
Some say that Starfleet walks softly while carrying a big stick ( note that to have a big stick you also have to have an industry devoted to warfare) .
While others prefer to see Starfleet as the carriers of a tent and a cantina who's wide eyed exploration often runs into a hitch .
... while still others (predominantly non-North Americans) see Starfleet as how the North Americans see themselves , for better and for worst ...
Come on kids, you're fooling yourself if you think Starfleet wasn't a military organization from the outset.
They simply have peaceful missions, just like -gasp- armies and navies do today! I mean they don't call HAO a peace mission.
BTW that stands for Humanitarian Assistance Operation where the military goes in, bringing in food, medical supplies and the like to help a ravaged area. Military does it all the time, just not talked about because it isn't blowing people up.
While most of that is true, the claim that Starfleet is not a military organization has a basis as well, due to the fact that many of Starfleet's primary missions are NOT shared by today's military-as-we-know-it .
Today's military does not explore for exploration's sake (and no, spying is not exploring) , it does not chart new oceans or landmasses nor planets , nor is it a tool for colonization or diplomacy .
But like you said, Starfleet is used for patrol , security , humanitarian aid, the occasional "showing the flag" and in general as a tool that has the most bodies available (as an organization) during disasters , where police and firefighters are just not enough .
... but in the end, those extra things that Starfleet peforms -- they are the reason why they are not a pure military organization (as we know them today) ...
I do agree there was conflict but if ya look closely most of the time kirk and picard only retaliated cause they got shot at. They didnt actively seek out combat like the feds do in this game. This kind of thing has been talked about for quite a long time(4 or so years) which means that a lot of people have a problem with it. Not just a couple people.
Please do list examples of this. I've been playing the story as my Delta Recruit and.... no.
For example: Researcher Rescue, it's a planet in Federation space that was attacked by the Gorn with the intent of annexing the world. Your role is to save the remaining Federation personnel, but... to do so you need to convince the Gorn to leave. Since they are unwilling to leave peacefully you must use force.
While most of that is true, the claim that Starfleet is not a military organization has a basis as well, due to the fact that many of Starfleet's primary missions are NOT shared by today's military-as-we-know-it .
Today's military does not explore for exploration's sake (and no, spying is not exploring) , it does not chart new oceans or landmasses nor planets , nor is it a tool for colonization or diplomacy .
But like you said, Starfleet is used for patrol , security , humanitarian aid, the occasional "showing the flag" and in general as a tool that has the most bodies available (as an organization) during disasters , where police and firefighters are just not enough .
... but in the end, those extra things that Starfleet peforms -- they are the reason why they are not a pure military organization (as we know them today) ...
You actually have it backwards. Starfleet is the United States Navy absorbing NASA and becoming 1 overall organization called Starfleet.
And case in point with NASA. Who is routinely the Shuttle Commander and Pilot. US military officers. Just some food for thought.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
While most of that is true, the claim that Starfleet is not a military organization has a basis as well, due to the fact that many of Starfleet's primary missions are NOT shared by today's military-as-we-know-it .
Today's military does not explore for exploration's sake (and no, spying is not exploring) , it does not chart new oceans or landmasses nor planets , nor is it a tool for colonization or diplomacy .
But like you said, Starfleet is used for patrol , security , humanitarian aid, the occasional "showing the flag" and in general as a tool that has the most bodies available (as an organization) during disasters , where police and firefighters are just not enough .
... but in the end, those extra things that Starfleet peforms -- they are the reason why they are not a pure military organization (as we know them today) ...
Many of the great firsts in the history of exploration, aviation, and spacefight were carried out by military personnel, were partly or entirely funded by the military, or used military assets.
Also, modern navies maintain research vessels, some of them jointly operated with universities and scientific institutions. And contrary to what some of the anti-military types will tell you, not all of the research is done solely with an eye toward applying new discoveries to military applications. Both the USAF and United States Navy, being highly technical armed services, have a stake in scientific research for it's own stake.
That's not to say that military application don't factor into many cases. Not all of it is. And even if it does in a given case, if the private sector/scientific community benefits, then the motives are irrelevant.
The new ads are pure fascism, but since DS9 essentially destroyed Star Trek and made Federation fascism canon, I can't do anything but fondly recall TOS and TAS and TNG series and Voyager, and jump ship to Star Fleet Universe, as Trek's cousin franchise has not yet become cynical.
That said, Cryptic's new fascist vector art is beautiful and pure retrofuturist awesome. It's like The Rocketeer! However, historically speaking, as cool as retro comic style is, what we call retrofuturism was, in fact, pretty much the TRIBBLE-era style: big government + big science = PROGRESS, r=war! Synergy, man.
Oh, and you the players have the power to just skip all violent activities in-game, and use the CombatlogReader to compete with Heals Per Second. Make invulnerable ships with no weapons, and fill your tac console slots with peaceful universals. Be the revolution you want to see in society.
Wow, three posts to Godwin's Law.
Not the fastest I've ever seen, but damn close.
...Oh, baby, you know, I've really got to leave you / Oh, I can hear it callin 'me / I said don't you hear it callin' me the way it used to do?...
- Anne Bredon
Remember that Poll in which Exploration won hands down ????
Even PvP had a respectable showing. ..
But yet we have DR Powercreep at Full speed ahead!
See, on the ride home tonight, I was thinking exactly how exploration worked in the series.
Alien: "Hello, welcome to our planet of hats and our hat-based plot complication."
Spock/Bones/Scotty/Data/Crusher/Laforge: "Captain, I have technobabbled away the plot complication."
Kirk/Picard: "Excellent. Now to show off my Shakespearean monologue chops." Enterprise warps off. Roll credits.
It makes for great TV, MMO missions... not as much. Not unless you like coming up with your own speeches after you've clicked your way through solving the plot complication.
Though. Hm. I might have just come up with an idea for a Foundry mission...
Many of the great firsts in the history of exploration, aviation, and spacefight were carried out by military personnel, were partly or entirely funded by the military, or used military assets.
Also, modern navies maintain research vessels, some of them jointly operated with universities and scientific institutions. And contrary to what some of the anti-military types will tell you, not all of the research is done solely with an eye toward applying new discoveries to military applications. Both the USAF and United States Navy, being highly technical armed services, have a stake in scientific research for it's own stake.
That's not to say that military application don't factor into many cases. Not all of it is. And even if it does in a given case, if the private sector/scientific community benefits, then the motives are irrelevant.
Even today, the majority of the World's research vessels are either owned outright by the military (The Woods Hole Institute vessels are Navy owned including the famous discoverer of the RMS Titanic) or are funded by the military. In fact, the World's largest oceanic research entity, NOAA, was an organization that branched out from the Navy and still does employ a similar ranking system on it ships.
If you go back to the 18th and 19th Centuries, navies were doing exactly what Starfleet does, exploring, making first contact with new peoples, setting up colonies, anti-piracy patrols, and so on.
As much as I agree a game built on Peaceful exploration wouldn't get very far, people want big lasers, explosions, women, violence and lens flares.
Sounds quite a bit like TOS, if you discount the fact that TOS didn't have access to modern special effects. Especially "women;" no series was as driven by sex as TOS.
"Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
You actually have it backwards. Starfleet is the United States Navy absorbing NASA and becoming 1 overall organization called Starfleet.
Well , there are 2 conflicts that took place prior to that theory (The Eugenics Wars and WW III) , and with the way humanity got portrayed in the TNG Pilot ("Encounter at Farpoint") , to me it looked like we sunk down to a new version of the Dark Ages .
That , plus in in the movie Star Trek: First Contact , there were signs that continental US (from which the Phoenix was launched) was also a war torn place , suggesting that neither Nasa or the US Navy might not have survived one or both of these conflicts -- at least not in a shape that you know them today .
Many of the great firsts in the history of exploration, aviation, and spacefight were carried out by military personnel, were partly or entirely funded by the military, or used military assets.
Well , that's partially true .
It would be better to describe it as nations that had expansionist goals , used their navy (and later their space programs) to further those goals .
(yes , I'm old enough to remember all the saber rattling that took place during the Reagan era with the "Star Wars" project)
Also, modern navies maintain research vessels, some of them jointly operated with universities and scientific institutions. And contrary to what some of the anti-military types will tell you, not all of the research is done solely with an eye toward applying new discoveries to military applications. Both the USAF and United States Navy, being highly technical armed services, have a stake in scientific research for it's own stake.
Point taken .
... it's sometimes easy to forget that the most bloatedly funded military in the world does something else then what is shown in the 1 minute easy-to-consume clips that are shown in the popular news reports ...
I don't know, I'm kinda torn. In speech and debate we were coached to treat TRIBBLE and Fascism like the plague because it can lead to slippery slopes and is generally a horrible way to make your argument. That said, "dying can wait" and "Starfleet needs you to defend the Milky Way" do reflect WWII propaganda. I'm not sure there's any other way to take those posters. Because of this I don't think it's reflective of Goodwin's Law. Plus he backs up his argument with art history and other facts, it's not like he just wrote one sentence saying this is Facist propaganda.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"Go and have a wee, the second act gets considerably weirder." -Tim Minchin
Also, don't forget the Romulans with their 2 TOS showings. The first one "Balance of Terror" goes into detail of early Federation-Romulan relations, i.e. WAR. The first war was over long ago but still gathers very strong emotions and can only make it seem that it was a bitterly fought war. The Romulans in TOS as stated by Spock, were extremely aggressive. The Federation, even in the ideal pursuit of peace, must never, EVER dare show weakness to the militant, aggressive Romulans for it will be taken as a sign of weakness and only invites even more aggressive actions. The Romulans weren't just fielding, testing their new warbird on some target drones/ships. They were testing it in actual combat against the very same Federation that they had a Peace Treaty with, blatantly crossing the Neutral Zone into Federation territory, attacking and destroying Federation installations and personnel, and very nearly destroying the Enterprise.
Balance of Terror is an anti-war episode and a reminder of the fear of WWII submarine warfare. The violence in it is meant to reflect this, not to glorify it. Contrast this with the fact that the only way DS9 was going to end was with a battle after which everyone feels happy they won and participated in.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"Go and have a wee, the second act gets considerably weirder." -Tim Minchin
Comments
I have no problem with most of that. The main thing that irks me is how starfleet has ben portrayed. Vulcans saying its Logical to take lives rather than finding a alternative. None of the real "Hail the alien ship." or "They are powering up weapons!" before opening fire on it. Like I can understand some of it, borg for example, but even in the books, movies, and tv shows they always tried to talk to em first. That is what irks me the most about the federation side of the game. And it is what keeps me from playing a federation character. It just doesn't feel right.
All we're missing is Mirror skin bundles.
And your rants are a case study in kicking a dead horse... The only thing that changes with your statements is your post count...
Repeating the same tired old untruths does not make them any more valid...
This about sums it up... Despite what people may think, even as far back as ToS, the Federation has not been afraid to stand their ground and fight when not presented any other option...
Anyone who denies Starfleet is a military organisation and ready for war, when forced into it, is deluding themselves... Fascist however, is entirely not the case...
'Intelligence indicates that Iconians numbers are few'. So if there are few of them, how are they a threat. This is a classic example of projection. Make everybody think X, Y or Z is a threat and you can go after them and this make you, yourself as the threat. Are we hungry for a war?
'Indicates' Oh, are we not sure. What if they are not few? We may end in a war where we are outnumbered.
So here are the questions.
How many are there. Do we outnumber them, how come they are a threat to us?
Are the expansive? Why, what do they need?
Genral principle. Know your enemy. Perhaps he isn't afterall your enemy and if he is, you should know what he is and what he can.
This to me is in reference to the Iconians themselves, and not their servitors...
The Masters might be few in number, but there's nothing to indicate just how much fodder there is at their disposal... The Heralds, Elachi, Solanae and Tal Shiar are but 4 that we know of...
TOS era and its movies? The Klingons and Federation were at it plenty of times and the Klingons were the first of the major Non-Federation races that were political and military rivals, enemies of the Federation. Over Organia, you can see Kirk REALLY ramping things up to ensure the Federation had a good starting position 'WHEN' war came with the Klingons, not 'IF." Kor, his Klingon counterpart, was very much the same way. When it was stopped, Kor laments to Kirk that the war would have been glorious. The Klingons would go on to be an issue the Federation would constantly face even through the movies.
Also, don't forget the Romulans with their 2 TOS showings. The first one "Balance of Terror" goes into detail of early Federation-Romulan relations, i.e. WAR. The first war was over long ago but still gathers very strong emotions and can only make it seem that it was a bitterly fought war. The Romulans in TOS as stated by Spock, were extremely aggressive. The Federation, even in the ideal pursuit of peace, must never, EVER dare show weakness to the militant, aggressive Romulans for it will be taken as a sign of weakness and only invites even more aggressive actions. The Romulans weren't just fielding, testing their new warbird on some target drones/ships. They were testing it in actual combat against the very same Federation that they had a Peace Treaty with, blatantly crossing the Neutral Zone into Federation territory, attacking and destroying Federation installations and personnel, and very nearly destroying the Enterprise.
TNG? It makes references to past wars, 2 foremost coming to mind:
1. The Shelliak.
2. The bigger one, the Federation-Cardassian War which was fairly recent to TNG timeframe. Close enough that a number of Starfleet personnel were veterans of that war, one that seemed to leave lots of bitterness, resentment.
Anyways, before DS9, there had been plenty of enough fighting.
And I want to leave with this: When the Star Trek movies first started coming out, TMP was pretty much a 2 hour version of a TV episode. It was very much a disappointment. Then came the much more militant The Wrath of Khan, even down to the much more military looking uniforms of that movie compared to the pajamas of TMP. TWOK did VERY WELL and is still upheld as the best or among the best of Star Trek productions.
All before DS9 came out.
Ahhh, but what many don't ask is "where did that strength come from and why ?" .
I mean apart from the show's purpose (to tell a tale of adventure and morality) , the Federation (and it's ships) are set up in a way that they are able to meet head to head entire empires that are dedicated to expansionalism through warfare .
Fans of Trek have two distinct ideas about what Starfleet is:
Some say that Starfleet walks softly while carrying a big stick ( note that to have a big stick you also have to have an industry devoted to warfare) .
While others prefer to see Starfleet as the carriers of a tent and a cantina who's wide eyed exploration often runs into a hitch .
... while still others (predominantly non-North Americans) see Starfleet as how the North Americans see themselves , for better and for worst ...
Hue hue hue i played that game, its a long way from being feature complete, besides all my st lovin friends are here?
bye dude, im sure youll never log on to sto ever again *cheers*
Interested in Role Playing? Join the 12th Fleet Science division!
While most of that is true, the claim that Starfleet is not a military organization has a basis as well, due to the fact that many of Starfleet's primary missions are NOT shared by today's military-as-we-know-it .
Today's military does not explore for exploration's sake (and no, spying is not exploring) , it does not chart new oceans or landmasses nor planets , nor is it a tool for colonization or diplomacy .
But like you said, Starfleet is used for patrol , security , humanitarian aid, the occasional "showing the flag" and in general as a tool that has the most bodies available (as an organization) during disasters , where police and firefighters are just not enough .
... but in the end, those extra things that Starfleet peforms -- they are the reason why they are not a pure military organization (as we know them today) ...
For example: Researcher Rescue, it's a planet in Federation space that was attacked by the Gorn with the intent of annexing the world. Your role is to save the remaining Federation personnel, but... to do so you need to convince the Gorn to leave. Since they are unwilling to leave peacefully you must use force.
My character Tsin'xing
You actually have it backwards. Starfleet is the United States Navy absorbing NASA and becoming 1 overall organization called Starfleet.
And case in point with NASA. Who is routinely the Shuttle Commander and Pilot. US military officers. Just some food for thought.
Star Trek Battles member. Want to roll with a good group of people regardless of fleets and not have to worry about DPS while doing STFs? Come join the channel and join in the fun!
http://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1145998/star-trek-battles-channel-got-canon/p1
Many of the great firsts in the history of exploration, aviation, and spacefight were carried out by military personnel, were partly or entirely funded by the military, or used military assets.
Also, modern navies maintain research vessels, some of them jointly operated with universities and scientific institutions. And contrary to what some of the anti-military types will tell you, not all of the research is done solely with an eye toward applying new discoveries to military applications. Both the USAF and United States Navy, being highly technical armed services, have a stake in scientific research for it's own stake.
That's not to say that military application don't factor into many cases. Not all of it is. And even if it does in a given case, if the private sector/scientific community benefits, then the motives are irrelevant.
Wow, three posts to Godwin's Law.
Not the fastest I've ever seen, but damn close.
...Oh, baby, you know, I've really got to leave you / Oh, I can hear it callin 'me / I said don't you hear it callin' me the way it used to do?...
- Anne Bredon
See, on the ride home tonight, I was thinking exactly how exploration worked in the series.
Alien: "Hello, welcome to our planet of hats and our hat-based plot complication."
Spock/Bones/Scotty/Data/Crusher/Laforge: "Captain, I have technobabbled away the plot complication."
Kirk/Picard: "Excellent. Now to show off my Shakespearean monologue chops."
Enterprise warps off. Roll credits.
It makes for great TV, MMO missions... not as much. Not unless you like coming up with your own speeches after you've clicked your way through solving the plot complication.
Though. Hm. I might have just come up with an idea for a Foundry mission...
Even today, the majority of the World's research vessels are either owned outright by the military (The Woods Hole Institute vessels are Navy owned including the famous discoverer of the RMS Titanic) or are funded by the military. In fact, the World's largest oceanic research entity, NOAA, was an organization that branched out from the Navy and still does employ a similar ranking system on it ships.
If you go back to the 18th and 19th Centuries, navies were doing exactly what Starfleet does, exploring, making first contact with new peoples, setting up colonies, anti-piracy patrols, and so on.
Well , there are 2 conflicts that took place prior to that theory (The Eugenics Wars and WW III) , and with the way humanity got portrayed in the TNG Pilot ("Encounter at Farpoint") , to me it looked like we sunk down to a new version of the Dark Ages .
That , plus in in the movie Star Trek: First Contact , there were signs that continental US (from which the Phoenix was launched) was also a war torn place , suggesting that neither Nasa or the US Navy might not have survived one or both of these conflicts -- at least not in a shape that you know them today .
Well , that's partially true .
It would be better to describe it as nations that had expansionist goals , used their navy (and later their space programs) to further those goals .
(yes , I'm old enough to remember all the saber rattling that took place during the Reagan era with the "Star Wars" project)
Point taken .
... it's sometimes easy to forget that the most bloatedly funded military in the world does something else then what is shown in the 1 minute easy-to-consume clips that are shown in the popular news reports ...
I don't know, I'm kinda torn. In speech and debate we were coached to treat TRIBBLE and Fascism like the plague because it can lead to slippery slopes and is generally a horrible way to make your argument. That said, "dying can wait" and "Starfleet needs you to defend the Milky Way" do reflect WWII propaganda. I'm not sure there's any other way to take those posters. Because of this I don't think it's reflective of Goodwin's Law. Plus he backs up his argument with art history and other facts, it's not like he just wrote one sentence saying this is Facist propaganda.
"Go and have a wee, the second act gets considerably weirder." -Tim Minchin
Balance of Terror is an anti-war episode and a reminder of the fear of WWII submarine warfare. The violence in it is meant to reflect this, not to glorify it. Contrast this with the fact that the only way DS9 was going to end was with a battle after which everyone feels happy they won and participated in.
"Go and have a wee, the second act gets considerably weirder." -Tim Minchin