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Iconian Intelligence File #247

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  • saurializardsaurializard Member Posts: 4,405 Arc User
    edited April 2015
    Interesting...
    Taris wore the same gloves than the second pictured Herald.
    #TASforSTO
    Iconian_Trio_sign.jpg?raw=1
  • saedeithsaedeith Member Posts: 628 Arc User
    edited April 2015
    Interesting...
    Taris wore the same gloves than the second pictured Herald.

    There is pretty much nothing Romulan left of Taris. Which interestingly enough takes the heat off Sela somewhat as being the main protaganist. At least that is how the new epsiode is painting it.
  • drreverenddrreverend Member Posts: 459 Arc User
    edited April 2015
    With the Voth, I figure there's eons of their history even they don't remember. Entire cultures rising and falling and ground under the heels of other civilizations as they gradually migrated to their current home in the Delta Quadrant. Alternatively, they were in sleeper ships and spent countless millennium adrift, or fell through a wormhole or who knows?

    But it wouldn't surprise me at all if there are vast sections of Voth history that they've forgotten or lost. Voth live a long time (there are a few small implications in some of the Voth doff text that Voth have lifespans that may easily rival or even exceed that of Vulcans) and are very, very resistant to change, valuing stability and order in their society. Their weakness has always been that they adapt slowly. On the other hand, they rarely need to, since they're as a society and power strong enough to simply stomp on most threats.
  • shpoksshpoks Member Posts: 6,967 Arc User
    edited April 2015
    saedeith wrote: »
    Heralds, Iconians. They know not the power of the Ferengi Whip. They soon will. :P

    Nor the Ferengi greed! They're in for a rude awakening. :P
    HQroeLu.jpg
  • thomaselkinsthomaselkins Member Posts: 575 Arc User
    edited April 2015
    Interesting...
    Taris wore the same gloves than the second pictured Herald.

    I don't believe we've seen the last of Taris. Sure, she got pushed off that railing but it's not the fall that kills you. Considering she had a long way to fall before ever reaching the ground, the Iconians could have beamed her away or opened a portal at any time. They rescued her from jail once before and she was hanging out on their command sphere, so it's possible they saved her here as well.
  • pwlaughingtrendypwlaughingtrendy Member Posts: 2,966 Arc User
    edited April 2015
    shpoks wrote: »
    Nor the Ferengi greed! They're in for a rude awakening. :P
    And in true Trendy tradition, I will as always lead the charge with a Tholian sword backed up by my First OFficer with a Ferengi whip.

    It's tradition, after all.
  • mhall85mhall85 Member Posts: 2,852 Arc User1
    edited April 2015
    drreverend wrote: »
    The Iconian were saw on Qo'nos was tall, svelte, and looked to be as much energy as matter, and some of Sela's comments imply that their biology is heavily energy based with stuff like chronitons in their brains. Heralds look like they're just flesh and blood, so if there's a relation it may be more distant.

    That or whatever the Iconians are is an uplifted or ascended form of Herald.

    Yes. The blog post makes the comparison to the Founders/Vorta relationship... so, I would expect it to be more like that, than direct descendants.
    d87926bd02aaa4eb12e2bb0fbc1f7061.jpg
  • trillbuffettrillbuffet Member Posts: 861 Arc User
    edited April 2015
    Its fun playing new character for this because it reminds me of the days when you could fly a bird of prey and it be useful lol. I am hoping next ships come out for KDF are some T6 bops that have mastery to put bops back on the map as far as damage goes because right now at end game the cloak and dagger of the bop is severely weak compared to that of other faction ships. Heck like most battle cruisers out dps our bops these days because the corner stone of it is the battle cloak but yet nothing to back it up. So maybe Klingon intelligence will realize their intelligence on the iconians that they will need stronger bops and plop some bop mastery that we can use to be useful again :D
  • xenificationxenification Member Posts: 615 Arc User
    edited April 2015
    Dinosaurs came first on Earth but that in no way confirms that it was like that in the rest of the universe.

    correct.

    People need to remember that the earth is far younger than the universe itself.

    there are planets out there that have likely existed 3 billion or more years longer than the earth.

    So its stands to reason that the preservers did in fact come first and that the voth came after the seeding.
  • sistericsisteric Member Posts: 768 Arc User
    edited April 2015
    drreverend wrote: »
    With the Voth, I figure there's eons of their history even they don't remember. Entire cultures rising and falling and ground under the heels of other civilizations as they gradually migrated to their current home in the Delta Quadrant. Alternatively, they were in sleeper ships and spent countless millennium adrift, or fell through a wormhole or who knows?

    But it wouldn't surprise me at all if there are vast sections of Voth history that they've forgotten or lost. Voth live a long time (there are a few small implications in some of the Voth doff text that Voth have lifespans that may easily rival or even exceed that of Vulcans) and are very, very resistant to change, valuing stability and order in their society. Their weakness has always been that they adapt slowly. On the other hand, they rarely need to, since they're as a society and power strong enough to simply stomp on most threats.

    As was pointed in the Voyager and in STO, the Voth don't beleive they came from Earth. And that is Heracy to think they came from anyplace other than the Delta Quadrant. And Voyager presents evidence that they are from Earth.

    It seems that New Ideas that doesn't support Doctrine are considered Heresey. And this will always stunt scientific discovery.
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  • drreverenddrreverend Member Posts: 459 Arc User
    edited April 2015
    mhall85 wrote: »
    Yes. The blog post makes the comparison to the Founders/Vorta relationship... so, I would expect it to be more like that, than direct descendants.

    It could be any number of things. I am hoping the storylines explore a bit behind the Heralds and what makes them tick, with characters and plot beyond them being shock troopers.

    One of the best things about Weyoun was how over the course of DS9 he really showed the depths of the Founders' arrogance and the severity of their crimes, with him being on one hand frighteningly competent when he was given free hand (watch him. Weyoun is almost never wrong and quite ruthless, but often overruled by the female Founder or Gul Dukat, who are both less able than him), but has the personality of a dog that desperately wants to be loved... and then you realize what the Founders did to his people, turning what had been an act of kindness and altruism into warping them into their slaves as "thanks."

    I really hope over the course of this conflict we actually get to learn more about the Heralds, not just hear them spouting off how they'll destroy us, but actually talk to them. What makes them tick? What does John Q. Herald want out of life beyond the eternal veneration of his masters and crushing their enemies for their greater glory?

    Elachi are little more than meat-drones, Solanae are pathetic shadows of their former glory, and Bluegil are animalistic weapons, but Heralds can think. Are they little more than brutes, or do they have their own culture and thoughts, even if they are completely broken to the wills of their masters?

    In DS9 there were times we got fascinating insights into the mindset of the Jem'hadar, which made them more three dimensional. I'm hoping we get similar for the Heralds.
    As was pointed in the Voyager and in STO, the Voth don't beleive they came from Earth. And that is Heracy to think they came from anyplace other than the Delta Quadrant. And Voyager presents evidence that they are from Earth.

    It seems that New Ideas that doesn't support Doctrine are considered Heresey. And this will always stunt scientific discovery.

    Wouldn't surprise me if they also tend to occasionally edit out or rewrite their histories to fit current interpretations of Doctrine.

    They're not anti-science, not exactly. After all, Voth are highly intelligent and quite advanced, and they're brilliant engineers. They are very conservative, however, and will suppress discoveries or stifle research that they believe will disrupt society or the Hierarchy's power.

    My personal theory is that the conflict with the Undine and Borg have drawn out the more militant, hardline aspects of their society. Voth are herbivores and not inherently violent in that when something threatens them, they respond by either intimidating it into backing off with their technological power and resources and massive ships, or if that doesn't work, brute force by stomping on it. When I try to think of metaphors for how Voth collectively think, I imagine elephants or big sauropods. Voth thinking and designs are big, overwhelming, defensive-minded and tend to go for just crushing the threat. Likewise, Voth in their actions are heavy-handed and stubborn.

    Once something stops being a threat to them or their interests, they go back to ignoring it unless it's proving to be too dangerous, at which point they try and squash it with brute force (such as the Fortress Ships being the most unsubtle things ever). They're dangerous to the Borg because they hit like sledgehammers and punch through efforts to adapt with raw force, while Undine are dangerous to Voth because Undine are fast, agile, vicious, relentless, and come at them from unexpected directions.

    The Vaadwaur were an unexpected and unforseen threat that's left them on the back foot, especially after their expeditionary force to the Solonae Dyson Sphere was defeated. I imagine that right now, the Voth are licking their wounds and being reclusive, having suffered several reversals in recent campaigns to the Alpha Quadrant powers as well as casualties in their conflict with the Undine and Vaadwaur. They'll be focusing on defending their home territories for a while, I think, though it would be interesting if in time we make a peace with them.

    Our conflict with the Voth was really a thing of us and them being at cross purposes, and there's far less rancor there than, say, with the Undine (who are so aggressive as to be impossible to negotiate with) or Iconians (who at this point... well, there's a billion Romulans who have a score to settle).
  • themariethemarie Member Posts: 1,055 Arc User
    edited April 2015
    shpoks wrote: »
    Nor the Ferengi greed! They're in for a rude awakening. :P


    ICONIAN LEADER: "YOU SOLD OUR ADVANCED UNKNOWABLE TECHNOLOGY IN... GAMBLING BOXES?!"

    DAMON CRIP'TIC: "No, cheap mass-produced imitations of your advanced unknowable technology."

    ICONIAN LEADER: "HOW DID YOU REVERSE-ENGINEER OUR STUFF--"

    DAMON CRIP'TIC: "Hey check this out, for 900 Lobi you can get an Iconian Ubernaught, for 550 you can get an Iconian Pawnagemaster Destroyer, and for 200 you can get a bunch of swag that makes black-fire on all your gear!"

    ICONIAN LEADER: "THIS CANNOT BE! WE ARE UNDONE!"

    DAMON CRIP'TIC: "So how many keys can I put you down for?"

    ICONIAN LEADER: "ALL OF THEM! THE MORTALS CANNOT HAVE ACCESS TO OUR TECHNOLOGY."

    DAMON CRIP'TIC: "Keys are 125 ZEN each."

    ICONIAN LEADER: "WHAT IN THE NAME OF THE FIRST SUPERNOVA IS 'ZEN?!' "

    DAMON CRIP'TIC: "A way to turn money into a means of exchange."

    ICONIAN LEADER: "WE EVOLVED PAST THE NEED FOR MON--"

    DAMON CRIP'TIC: "EC, Dilth or TRIBBLE, no one gets ZEN for free!"

    ICONIAN LEADER: "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!"
  • giannicampanellagiannicampanella Member Posts: 424 Arc User
    edited April 2015
    Wouldn't the Voth have records about what happened? At any rate, this should be good.

    No, the timescale is in an altogether different league. The Voth (or proto-Voth) are much more ancient than Iconians, as far as we know. The Voth rose to sentience, developed a space-faring civilization, and fled Earth ~66 million years ago at the end of the Late Cretaceous epoch. The current Voth species is ~22 million years old, and judging from their current only slightly more advanced technology compared to the Federation, the current Voth civilization is probably only slightly older than that of Earth and Vulcan, et al. The modern Voth species had time to literally be anywhere besides the Delta Quadrant over millions of years. If past incarnations of Voth species civilizations had ever encountered the Iconians in the Delta Quadrant 200,000 years ago, it likely would not be on record, judging by the relatively young age of the current Voth Ministry. What you're asking is the equivalent of wondering if hoomons have records of the Iconians from 200,000 years ago. Proto-humans existed, and the continuous species of which we are the current generation existed at that time, but not any trace of culture.

    But even if you imagine it is possible for a single civilization to last for 22 million years (which is inconceivable -- one end of that memory wouldn't even be able to comprehend the other), it is extremely improbable that they would keep a detailed written history that long. Indeed, it would probably consist of more information than could possibly be saved or computed in any way. At some point, memory must just fade away.

    In other words, it would be without exaggeration utterly miraculous if the Voth actually remembered by some magical means anything in detail that happened even 10,000 years ago, never mind 200,000 years ago. It would be like asking the government of Turkey for a complete historical account of the meaning of Pleistocene cave paintings for which we have absolutely no context for understanding.

    Indeed, even in terms of the established Star Trek universe, the Voth are an enigma or an extraordinarily unlucky species evolutionarily speaking, as every other ancient species evolved into pure energy beings or ascended to higher dimensions of being millions of years before the poor eternally humanoid and crudely material Voth. Even V'Ger was able to evolve beyond the confines of the known universe in a mere 300 years.
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  • kintishokintisho Member Posts: 1,040 Arc User
    edited April 2015
    So your fleets blot out stars? Let us fight in the shade!!!
  • dave18193dave18193 Member Posts: 416 Arc User
    edited April 2015
    themarie wrote: »
    ICONIAN LEADER: "YOU SOLD OUR ADVANCED UNKNOWABLE TECHNOLOGY IN... GAMBLING BOXES?!"

    DAMON CRIP'TIC: "No, cheap mass-produced imitations of your advanced unknowable technology."

    ICONIAN LEADER: "HOW DID YOU REVERSE-ENGINEER OUR STUFF--"

    DAMON CRIP'TIC: "Hey check this out, for 900 Lobi you can get an Iconian Ubernaught, for 550 you can get an Iconian Pawnagemaster Destroyer, and for 200 you can get a bunch of swag that makes black-fire on all your gear!"

    ICONIAN LEADER: "THIS CANNOT BE! WE ARE UNDONE!"

    DAMON CRIP'TIC: "So how many keys can I put you down for?"

    ICONIAN LEADER: "ALL OF THEM! THE MORTALS CANNOT HAVE ACCESS TO OUR TECHNOLOGY."

    DAMON CRIP'TIC: "Keys are 125 ZEN each."

    ICONIAN LEADER: "WHAT IN THE NAME OF THE FIRST SUPERNOVA IS 'ZEN?!' "

    DAMON CRIP'TIC: "A way to turn money into a means of exchange."

    ICONIAN LEADER: "WE EVOLVED PAST THE NEED FOR MON--"

    DAMON CRIP'TIC: "EC, Dilth or TRIBBLE, no one gets ZEN for free!"

    ICONIAN LEADER: "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!"


    I laughed so hard my diaphragm ruptured. You sir should be hired to write in game scripts.

    On an unrelated note, I think the voth should know about the iconians - and should be the only ones who can go toe to toe with them (apart from the undine and borg maybe).

    Compare the show voth, who can phase cloak, shut down all fed tech with a button press, warp across half a quadrant in a day and put AN ENTIRE MEGA CITY SHIP in transwarp, and then compare it to the moronic weaklings in game and you can see why the voth are my least favourite sto villain.

    They were among the most advanced species ever seen in the shows - yet have been reduced to mere phaser fodder in game.
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  • virusdancervirusdancer Member Posts: 18,687 Arc User
    edited April 2015
    wait wut? the protheans have invaded sto? :P.

    Had to look up what you were referring to there...hrmm, I got more of just a generic fantasy vibe from them. Standard demon type mage with some form of magical construct. /shrug
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2015
    So what is the Dominion doing during all this? There has been at least one gate found in the Gamma Quadrant.

    What Iconians can't get a foothold there? One group of behind the scenes deceivers vs another, and both with followers that worship them.


    Which reminds me, how much DS9 left us hanging there. I'd like to know a lot more on the extent of the Dominion, and what was beyond their borders. Were there other groups they ran up against that they couldn't defeat?
  • magneticmoosemagneticmoose Member Posts: 22 Arc User
    edited April 2015
    drreverend wrote: »
    Wouldn't surprise me if they also tend to occasionally edit out or rewrite their histories to fit current interpretations of Doctrine.

    I thought about this aspect of the Voth. We really don't know anything about them or this "Doctrine" of theirs. Why are they so aggressive to protect it?

    We know that most In-Game cultures call the Iconians "Demons", but what if the Voth actually consider them gods? The Voth have been around for eons not milania like most other cultures. During all that time wouldn't the Iconians have defeated them? The fact that the Voth are still around means that they either sided with the Iconians, or were the ones who defeated them (which isn't the case from what we get spoon fed in the background story in game)
  • leviathan99#2867 leviathan99 Member Posts: 7,747 Arc User
    edited April 2015
    There was a line in the Delta Recruit info that said the Iconians use "catspaws". I think this was a meta-wink at the episode "Catspaw", which featured the Ornithoids in the form of witches, who served the "Old Ones" outside of the galaxy. I had theorized the Ornithoids were a servitor race and that the Iconians were the Old Ones featured in two different TOS episodes, despite Memory Alpha's contention that the two episodes were referencing different Old Ones. (I will note that both episodes were written by the same writer, who was a personal friend of H.P. Lovecraft, and I think he intended "What are Little Girls Made of?" and "Catspaw" to be two episodes that hinted at a larger plot with the "Old Ones" that no one ever developed.)

    http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Old_Ones_%28extragalactic%29

    http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Old_Ones_(Exo_III)

    Lovecraft's mythology had its own Old Ones, which Robert Bloch was obviously alluding to in both episodes.
  • hip63hip63 Member Posts: 106 Arc User
    edited April 2015
    drreverend wrote: »
    They certainly are a distinctive looking bunch. I want to steal his scepter and smack 'em with it.

    LOL! Quote of the week right there! :D

    hip63 :P
  • leviathan99#2867 leviathan99 Member Posts: 7,747 Arc User
    edited April 2015
    I thought about this aspect of the Voth. We really don't know anything about them or this "Doctrine" of theirs. Why are they so aggressive to protect it?

    We know that most In-Game cultures call the Iconians "Demons", but what if the Voth actually consider them gods? The Voth have been around for eons not milania like most other cultures. During all that time wouldn't the Iconians have defeated them? The fact that the Voth are still around means that they either sided with the Iconians, or were the ones who defeated them (which isn't the case from what we get spoon fed in the background story in game)

    I find the Voth likelier to be connected to the Preservers, who we haven't seen since the Breen FEs.

    I also find it likely that the Preservers are connected in some way. They are likely responsible for some of the galactic drift seen in various episodes (possibly including Amelia Earhart's presence in the Delta Quadrant, the Voth, Native Americans in TOS episodes). I suspect that the Preservers might have been the peacemakers at the end of the Iconian conflict and MAY HAVE even made sure some Iconians survived, since the Preserver mission seems to be to seed near-extinct species in unlikely places.
  • leviathan99#2867 leviathan99 Member Posts: 7,747 Arc User
    edited April 2015
    I'll add that I think however this shakes out, there is likely to be something drawn up involving:

    The Old Ones (Iconian or not; probably Iconians)
    The Sphere Builders (Iconians or a servitor race? DYSON sphere builders?)
    Ancient Androids (ala Ruk)
    The Doomsday Device (Used in the bombardment of Iconia?)
    The Preservers
    The Voth

    And, just a hunch...

    The origins of the Borg and the fate of V'Ger. In particular, I think all of the other powers' relationship will probably establish why the Borg seemed like a good idea at the time and what they were created in response to.
  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,844 Arc User
    edited April 2015
    saedeith wrote: »
    There is pretty much nothing Romulan left of Taris. Which interestingly enough takes the heat off Sela somewhat as being the main protaganist. At least that is how the new epsiode is painting it.

    taris was or could still be an antagonist, sela knocked her over the side and taris went skydiving, unknown if she kissed the deck itself or she was rescued mid-flight by the iconians.

    sela was a supporting character because she advanced the storyline and provided help to the player to a point as the protagonist. taris was never at any point more then an antagonist who was so wrapped up in her complicity and guilt for the loss of romulus that she literally went insane trying to stop what she did and what she knew.

    in a sense its like she ended up accidentally cutting her spine and severing it and then became paralysed from the neck down, now shes just a tormented soul in her own body for what she did to herself and she could never forgive herself for what she did either.
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  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,966 Arc User
    edited April 2015
    wait wut? the protheans have invaded sto? :P.

    I was wondering if I was the only one who'd noticed that. :D
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
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  • hip63hip63 Member Posts: 106 Arc User
    edited April 2015
    The thing about the Voth is that, sure, 65 millions ago they left earth and eventually end up in the Delta Quadrant but other than that the facts are pretty darn sparse.

    They may have had only the most basic form of space travel when leaving earth. In fact I would say that it was highly probable. They may have even been sleeper type ships and may have drifted long time before finding a new home from which to rebirth their species.

    This might even explain their doctrine. They may have drifted in cryo for so long that they had no idea that they had drifted all the way into the Delta Quadrant.

    Then after rebuilding the voth culture (including the of the philosophy of the doctrine) they then became much more technologically advanced and eventually outgrew their adopted planet and returned to the stars, "Because that is where we, the Voth, came from..." having totally forgotten about earth.

    During that time Iconia may have risen and fallen.

    Totally guess work of course but hey, my guesses are as good as anyone else's! lol

    hip63 :P
  • flash525flash525 Member Posts: 5,441 Arc User
    edited April 2015
    Dinosaurs came first on Earth but that in no way confirms that it was like that in the rest of the universe.
    You make a good point. For some odd reason I was thinking the Preservers were from Earth too.
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  • themariethemarie Member Posts: 1,055 Arc User
    edited April 2015
    There is always the possibility that the Iconians were NOT bad-wrong-evil and were in fact victims themselves. What if another empire like the T'Kon waged war against Iconia and drove them to near extinction?

    It could come down to something as simple as Iconia develops the gateway system, opens up a new era of galaxy-spanning travel. Iconia sets policy, pay this fee to use the gateways, pay this in tribute to get your own gateway node, respect our terms of use and our end-user license agreement.

    Someone comes along, pisses off Iconia and Iconia cuts them off. In retribution, they raise an alliance of thousands of races all of which do not have gateway access because of various reasons... and they wage a war of genocide on the Iconians.


    We'll see!
  • hyperionx09hyperionx09 Member Posts: 1,709 Arc User
    edited April 2015
    shpoks wrote: »
    Nor the Ferengi greed! They're in for a rude awakening. :P
    So Iconian Dreadnought, Battleship, and Cruiser when?

    I have EC ready; and will more than willingly pay a half-billion of it down for the Dreadnought especially.
  • themariethemarie Member Posts: 1,055 Arc User
    edited April 2015
    When your Delta Senior sends the message back in time... did any one else notice that we appear to be standing in the Preserver Cave from the Breen Arc?
  • lmsapsin34474lmsapsin34474 Member Posts: 40 Arc User
    edited April 2015
    Howdy all,
    So can not wait for the Iconian's to get here it will be fun and looking forward to new content. See you all in game!
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