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Funny thing w/ the Embassy Consoles....
darkknightucf
Member Posts: 1,546 Media Corps
Took my fun [Over] build out for a spin.... LOL!
https://youtu.be/MPfBNEN0k5g
I had to laugh.
The vid shows my puny Defiant slapping on 4 DBB's with the [Over] mod + FaW, APB spam, and AHOD trait. Other than that, I had nothing into Captain skills for energy weapons, and nothing for traits that would help beams/energy (aside from Accuracy and Inspirational Leader). Everything else was kinetic. I had 3x Gold XIV Science Embassy Consoles [Flw] and XIV UR AP Exploiters x5.
The laughs are priceless. This is what 3 of those consoles can do for a bad pilot w/ a "lol" build.
https://youtu.be/MPfBNEN0k5g
I had to laugh.
The vid shows my puny Defiant slapping on 4 DBB's with the [Over] mod + FaW, APB spam, and AHOD trait. Other than that, I had nothing into Captain skills for energy weapons, and nothing for traits that would help beams/energy (aside from Accuracy and Inspirational Leader). Everything else was kinetic. I had 3x Gold XIV Science Embassy Consoles [Flw] and XIV UR AP Exploiters x5.
The laughs are priceless. This is what 3 of those consoles can do for a bad pilot w/ a "lol" build.
@Odenknight | U.S.S. Challenger | "Remember The Seven"
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
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Yesterday some players grabbed there old plasma dopy boats and where actually complaining like, that it just deals 12k dps. I checked the logs and for some players the new explosion was there highest dps source at around 35% of total.
Thats 3-4k dps per console on builds that could play drunken and deal 30-40k dps, let alone those crazy 50k+ builds. So yeah i'm kinda envious how easy energy builds can increase there DPS, which in the case of romulans also means they increase there tanking ability with the shield lol console.
I don't understand why energy boats needed a buff, in such a way that torpedo/sci ships wont profit from it at all? Why don't add 3 types of procs/passive that you can choose for all 3 types of damage, instead of favoring only energy weapons.
I mean there is already a example in the rep trait system, where torpedo weapons get a 5% chance vs 2.5% chance for energy weapons for a damage proc, so why not at least use a similar mechanic?
My Ship Builds: USS Conqueror, HMS Victorious, HMS Concord, ISS Queen Elizabeth, Black Widow III
Click here to view my DeviantArt.
The Plasma explosions arent really Overpowered. It doesnt get buffed with +Beam consoles.
Just to know who Marsh is, he is one of those who campaign to nerf plasma doping before and is campaigning again Now.
However, just like the typical PvPer attitude, considering the Marsh is one of those PvPers left, he wants the game to adjust to him by nerfing things he doesnt use, and buffing those he usual things he use all under the disguise of "balance".
Marsh is time that you started adapting and throw out this typical STO PvP attitude of yours. Its really one of the reasons why PvP is dead in this game because of this kind of attitude by the common STO PvP community- refusal to adapt, demanding change the game mechanics in favor of his/her personal gameplay rather than adapt.
I guess this entirely depends on your point of view and simply stating "it isn't" is not much of argument or proof.
All i know is that those consoles really synergize very well with a common used FAW beam boat and that i have logs in which the explosion is listed as main dps source. On the one hand i like obscure builds and so pushing special effects to the maximum is cool, but in this case it simply adds on top of already powerfully builds?
I might be ignorant, but what alternatives do FAW builds have for there sci slots that are better or similar? Why would a energy weapon build not use those consoles? To me good balance boils down to "hard choices", if you have problems deciding between option A, B and C than you have a good balance. If 90% of players choose option A over B/C, than you have bad balance.
At least, why is the proc not added to torpedoes as well, the same way "Omega Graviton Amplifier" works?
PS: I personally don't like any form of RNG dps or passive stuff, simply because i think your main 80% of dps should always come from actively playing the game not some passive setups, but thats ofc my personal opinion.
First:
If the explosions are doing most of your damage, your ship build is god awful. Those consoles will basically never be seen over 5k; I've seen isocharge alone hit 10k, and several other consoles parse over 5k directly or via their contribution. For most players, they'll be in the 1-3k range.
Second:
These consoles can't be buffed as much as weapons, clicky consoles, tetryon cascade, and other common methods of mega dps players. This means that these consoles benefit lower-dps players more than high dps players - something good for the game, imo.
Third:
A fairly common scimitar setup will remain Assimilated, Tachyokinetic, Conductive RCS [EPS], Bioneural, Valdore, leech, and possibly include an Isocharge or a ZPEC. Other consoles I expect to continue to see are the Saturation Bomb, Quantum Focus Phaser (or whatever the vesta lance is), an Exotic Particle Field Exciter [EPS], or a few other ship specific consoles. Admittedly, I will run all 3; however, every build I've run in the past 10 months has run all the sci consoles it could, for +th purposes.
Simply put, the consoles don't scale hard enough to be worth slotting multiple, or even one, one some very high dps players.
Fourth:
This is a good point. I really have no idea. I'd blame marshall, since he specifically said he didn't want torps to get this.
SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci
Tacs are overrated.
Game's best wiki
Build questions? Look here!
I never stated it was my build or what build it was. What i stated was that the new consoles did 12k DPS, which was 35% of the total dps on some runs i logged. So by using simple math you could have calculated that the total DPS in this case must have been ~32k dps.
So while 32k for a energy weapon build is nothing special, i would not call it "god awful", otherwise the 30k dps channel must be full of "god awful" players! I also don't understand what you mean by "never be seen over 5k"? 5k what?
mhh, so you already did the math on comparing the consoles with each other? So can you share this math so we can double check it for errors and draw our own conclusions?
In all fairness, i guess i'm simply envious and feel left out on all the shiny stuff energy weapons get
PS: Whats a "low" and "high" dps player to you?
And I have no problem with this. It's through a thorough, logical, and truthful discussion that we can gain insight on the topics.
I use the term, "OP" elsewhere to draw attention to this. Vel (@jarvisandalfred) called it correctly as "click bait". He's right. My only issue with this is in how it can cause game-changing repercussions in the future, not what it is doing now.
Vel and I had a good discussion about it, where he educated me on how many shield bypassing mechanics are in the game. It actually strengthened my point when put in the scenario that he outlined earlier; for builds not cranking out serious firepower, these consoles will elevate your DPS significantly (so long as you can maintain contact time to target). My concern is that future content will be "balanced" around these consoles, and that would widen the performance gap for various builds, which could lead to a reduction in build variety due to the assumption that, "everyone is using this".
I have campaigned to fix the Neutronic TS3 (and 2) issue, as well as fixing the other issues with that torpedo, and torpedoes in general. Please show me where I said, "Nerf doping", and I'll apologize for it. See above for my reasoning.
I'm not good enough to be called a PvP'er, but thank you for the compliment. Also, if I wanted the game to adjust to me by nerfing things I do not use, then I'd advocate for nerfs on the following:
All energy weapons
All cruisers (Especially Scimitars!)
Tykens, Tractors, and everything else Science (except FBP, just let me remove my Omni first
OSS+SS
Cloaking
Battle Cloak
My opponents breathing...
etc..
You do realize that you're telling a guy who is PvE spec'd flying a Defiant, using torpedoes for over 90% of my damage, and making it work (to some degree) in PvE and PvP content to adapt. I'll let you think that one over.
I'll gladly take the blame for not wanting torpedoes to work off of those consoles. Fixing the bugs with torpedoes would be a significant boost to DPS/performance for the current content. It's the future content that concerns me, as the easiest way to "balance" around the consoles would be to make more hull/shields and add in some other resists.
Anyone who knows me knows I don't want EZ-mode. What I do want are the tools that are being provided to be functional, and working with some working degree of parity for what they are capable of doing.
I've been known to say, "What would happen if Plasmonic Leech wasn't in the game?", and, "Lets see how people do if they don't use Leech..." The former is a, "what if" question, as I strongly believe that the game would be significantly different if Leech wasn't in the game. The latter is a challenge to see how many people could design a ship without Leech and be effective (a relative term, yes) in ISA and other content.
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
YMMV.
My logs are here:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0jlAmLwIV46X3R3bjFCUFBoV1E&authuser=0
I've had multiple 60K+ hits w/ the explosions. Range is 11K-70K+. I'm not the guy you should be "worried about".
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
This is a known expliot (plasma doping) it makes beam boats far more powerful than they were intended, been a problem since delta rising, in star trek cannons were always more powerful than beams, because of this exploit you can have a 2 tac console sci ship do like 80k dps without any skill or major investment. makes all other builds pointless really, everyone runnin beams and running the exploit due to lack of dev response.
As a former Cannoner, I'd like to go back to flying that loadout again. My thing is, I don't want them to be better than some other loadout because <arbitrary reason>, I want them to be better because the pilot can use the well-designed mechanics to use them properly and excel in them.
I'd like that across the board, but with benefits and drawbacks that make sense. Torpedoes generally stinking at shields is perfectly acceptable for me. Cannons having such a horrid drop-off isn't. Having a shield bypass mechanic that works this mindlessly to do this much damage, imho, isn't good game design.
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
See my logs.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0...V1E&authuser=0
I'm getting 6.7K on the first run. Doing more later w/ others who are running it to see how much they are getting.
Actually... Plasma Explosion done by each user and the position and percentage of their overall damage:
Marshall................6.7K-DPS.....1st.....24.77%
James Mc Dax......10.6K-DPS.....1st.....21.17%
Kahn...................2.8K-DPS......3rd......9.36%
SAH...................11.8K-DPS.....2nd....23.77%
Steve..................4.6K-DPS......3rd....15.50%
Here's the overall DPS done (also seen in the video):
Player........................Damage........................DPS
SAH..........................11.40M.........................62.7K
James Mc Dax..............9.91M.........................53.9K
Steve.........................6.26M.........................34.0K
Marshall.......................6.03M.........................33.1K
Kahn............................6.0M.........................32.5K
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
u sir are a moron
You do realize barely any PvPers used plasma doping, right? That was almost entirely a PvE thing. PvPers couldn't have cared less about it.
What you said was 'most'. If 12k from consoles is most of your damage, then you're getting high shots with upgraded consoles but can't fly or build your ship to actually get damage from the weapons, which is a build problem that the embassy consoles are going to cover up unless you parse it out.
I wouldn't call 32k god-awful. What I was saying is that a ship that's getting 8k or less from it's energy weapons, but still getting the shots off from upgraded (and buffed) consoles, has very major innate flaws, which is the conclusion I was drawing from your unedited post.
Next on on consoles:
[Pla] consoles only benefit from cat 2 buffs, starship energy weapons, and starship energy weapon specialization. Saturation Bomb and the phaser/disruptor/plasma lances benefit from all of those and the weapon-specific type consoles. Isocharge benefits from all cat 2's, and part gens (which is going to be 199+, from skill points and QSM, and thus higher again). There's your simple logic. And if you want a comparison: Saturation bomb's record is ~61k. Vesta lance is probably 5-7k. Isocharge is 9k+. I've not yet seen an embassy explosion parse above 5k yet.
P.S.: 5k, 50k.
SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci
Tacs are overrated.
Game's best wiki
Build questions? Look here!
No. Please no. Plasma 'doping' was fixed more than a month ago. That was actually an advantage to cannons, which have been worse than beams for over a year and a half. And nobody without skill ever broke 80k. Please shut up and take your hate-filled misinformation elsewhere.
SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci
Tacs are overrated.
Game's best wiki
Build questions? Look here!
I think this link properly conveys the appropriate reaction to Vel's quoted statement.
https://youtu.be/aZHvd0ks7Es
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
This is true. Except in record so far, I did 91k DPS without plasma explosion on the same tac toon and ship post plasma doping nerf. Plasma explosions gives you an alternative to use another console other than ISO charges or CrtD consoles.
Based on the data, I am actually losing DPS if I use more than 2 epic embassy console on my tac scimitar.
For now ISO charge > 1 Epic embassy console. The only consolation I get from running 2 or 3 epic embassy consoles is if I do a 30k or 10k or pug run, i get less threat and aggro.
So Vel might by right that the higher DPS you have the less benefit. Maybe Vel should make a Gantt Chart about it where the optimal DPS of plasma explosion is maximized at what level/amount DPS.
I should. I should do a lot of math. Eating is easier. But thank you for supporting me with empirical evidence. And for introducing me to a new fun spreadsheet thing.
SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci
Tacs are overrated.
Game's best wiki
Build questions? Look here!
Stating 61k bomb's is cherry picking, like claiming marshall fly's a 71k dps torpedo boat, we both know that those numbers require special conditions.
So 5-7k for Lance and 9k Isocharge, but whats the cooldown of those? I see a qualitative difference of getting 3-7k from a console that applies the dps uniformly, without any special conditions needed and consoles that require timeing and enemies with large hp pools.
I do understand that most of our numbers come from ISA parsing, so yes there are 4 large hp pools, so ofc from a DPS parsing point i also would use Lance/Iso over plasma, if this yields higher dps in the parse. Yet on other STF's i would probably pick the plasma, since it applies dps more uniformly without any special conditions needed.
So yes i admit you are probably right in your general assessment of the consoles regarding energy weapon users, but from my point of view as sci/torpedo user it still looks as if the already rich guys won the lottery.
Yes. I won't dispute them being excessively strong in PvP, where spikes of 20k straight to hull after resists would get rather annoying rather fast.
61k isn't actually cherry-picking. I believe there was a run where it hit 100k, but that one wasn't as high overall, and I don't have it on-hand to verify. Even so, it's literally 10 times the dps of an embassy console. Isocharge is I think 2 minutes, Lance being the same. Isocharge will wipe spheres rather fast, while Lance bursts down the transformer (or cube, or other boss-type NPC) - both of which scenarios are arguably more useful than constant dps, despite being more dps anyway. In a lot of other stf's, it's a similar idea. chuck isocharge to wreck gens in CSA/KSA, wipe everything in HSx, bounce around a spawn in ANRA, wipe some generic npc's... well, anywhere - in short, if I can get the same dps from option a or option b, and option a is spikes, option a is the better option.
As a sci/torp boat user... Yeah, it really has no reason to not proc on torps. That is a decision I do not understand. As a sci/energy weapon user, you'd be loving this. But while this isn't op relative to other things for energy weapons, it is something that torp users are denied, which isn't a happy thing.
SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci
Tacs are overrated.
Game's best wiki
Build questions? Look here!
mhh you start of by picking Fed only, than a specific 2500 zen ship, than a stf to utilize the ae and a player that can boost the bomb to 61-100k dps?
I noted cherry picking to state that from my experience and logs i have seen so far, seeing bomb users over 30k is extremely rare and i do not believe its a good representation of what the bulk of possible console-energy build users have access too and actually use.
There has to-be a catch on those 61-100k dps figures or otherwise i would expect to see a lot more players using this in ISA, since 2500 zen is not a huge barrier to many players.
Yeah. It's what the best of the best get, with min-maxed builds. The same could be said about 3-5k from embassy consoles.
You want the take the average player would get from these?
I would assume that the average player doesn't know that any console mentioned exists.
I would assume that the average player who, before being using these consoles, was at ~10k, would get ~1-2k per embassy console, ~5k from a saturation bomb, and ~2-3k from a lance or isocharge.
I would assume that the average player who, before being using these consoles, was at ~30k, would get ~2-3k per embassy console, ~10-20k from a saturation bomb, and ~3-5k from a lance or isocharge.
I really don't know for sure, I don't keep track of what the 'average player' does, because frankly it's a known fact that the average player is terrible. The optimal player, that's something we can track and strive for.
SCM - Hive (S) - [02:31] DMG(DPS) - @jarvisandalfred: 30.62M(204.66K) - Fed Sci
Tacs are overrated.
Game's best wiki
Build questions? Look here!
Initial testing is showing that the explosions can crit from FaW, and ONLY under FaW. Need more samples to test before sending in a bug report.
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
Haha, funny if true. Because BFAW needs help! ASAP!
Multiple logs are being generated to show this to be the case.
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.