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T6 Tactical Escort - Valiant Class

timelord79timelord79 Member Posts: 1,852 Arc User
So, the inevitable T6 Tactical Escort, naming the class after the Valiant seems logical for me, what are your wishes and expectations for it?

We all knoww it will come at some point.

With the new Pilot Boffs on thhe horizon this seems to be the perfect ship for this. No other starship class ship has pulled of daring maneuvers like the Defiant and her sisterships.

My wishes for her Boff Seating would be this:

Tactical/Pilot commander
Tactical Lt Commander
Science/Pilot Lieutenant
Engineering Lieutenant
Lieutenant universal

Weapons: 5/2 front/aft

Consoles:
5 tactical
3 engineering (4 engineering for fleet grade)
3 Science

whatever the best speed/turnrate/inertia combo is in game.

can use cloak/quad cannons

special console: actually, no idea. Maybe a unique attack pattern maneuver type thing with set boni if used with quad cannons and cloak reducing the energy cost for the cannons, or rerouting all weapons power through engines EPS conduits, so all energy weapons run on engines power. and maybe upgrading the Defiant's cloak to battle cloak


And a new costume that is unlocked for all Defiant variants account wide of course.

Buying the ship from c-store would include a Red Squadron collar pin costume piece. ;)
11750640_1051211588222593_450219911807924697_n.jpg
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Funny, I thought there already was a Valiant variant. But no, the classes are Vigilant, Gallant and Sao Paulo.

    I have doubts it would get a 5/2 weapon layout. It would mean that the new variant would have lost an aft weapon slot compared to the lower tier version.

    Special equipment could be a Dual Quantum Torpedo launcher.
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • timelord79timelord79 Member Posts: 1,852 Arc User
    edited March 2015

    I have doubts it would get a 5/2 weapon layout. It would mean that the new variant would have lost an aft weapon slot compared to the lower tier version.

    They have to make room in the aft for the upgraded engines. ;)
    11750640_1051211588222593_450219911807924697_n.jpg
  • seriousdaveseriousdave Member Posts: 2,777 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    As far as we "don't" know they are working on some cruisers (again) so expecting a defiant refit when absolutly nothing of the incoming stuff even relates to DS9 isn't really all that logical.
  • gl2814egl2814e Member Posts: 328 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Ship needs a stupid suicide console. The ship does sensor scan on the enemy vessel, loads a torpedo that exclusively does radiation damage, the crew begins chanting 'We're Red Squad! RED SQUAD RED SQUAD RED SQUAD!' Then the ship drops to 10% shields and takes +200% critical damage and has +200% vulnerability to Critical hits.
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,001 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    I agree that the ship is inevitable. But again, the "Commander specialization" thing? No.

    Commander specializations are reserved for the ships that introduce the specialization - Intel ships, Command Battlecruisers and whatever Pilot gets, maybe Pilot Aerowingfighterjets and once again they will come in a nice 3-pack ripoff people around here Love. To. Death. so you can buy a ship three times again.

    The Defiant will most likely follow the Pathfinder precedent. Lt. Hybrid.

    T6 Intrepid (Pathfinder) - CMDR Sci, LTC Sci, LT Eng/Intel, LT Tac, LT Uni

    T6 Galaxy (Challenger?) - CMDR Eng, LTC Eng, LT Tac/Command, LT Sci, LT Uni

    T6 Defiant (Valiant?) - CMDR Tac, LTC Tac, LT Sci/Pilot, LT Eng, LT Uni

    All coming with the T5U console setup for their class with a future fleet upgrade on the horizon or in their FT5U layout an the PAthfinder gets a retroactive buff.

    Derivation from this pattern is entirely possible but I would be very surprised (maybe evn positively) about that.
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • tgo533tgo533 Member Posts: 192 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    angrytarg wrote: »
    I agree that the ship is inevitable. But again, the "Commander specialization" thing? No.

    Commander specializations are reserved for the ships that introduce the specialization - Intel ships, Command Battlecruisers and whatever Pilot gets, maybe Pilot Aerowingfighterjets and once again they will come in a nice 3-pack ripoff people around here Love. To. Death. so you can buy a ship three times again.

    The Defiant will most likely follow the Pathfinder precedent. Lt. Hybrid.

    T6 Intrepid (Pathfinder) - CMDR Sci, LTC Sci, LT Eng/Intel, LT Tac, LT Uni

    T6 Galaxy (Challenger?) - CMDR Eng, LTC Eng, LT Tac/Command, LT Sci, LT Uni

    T6 Defiant (Valiant?) - CMDR Tac, LTC Tac, LT Sci/Pilot, LT Eng, LT Uni

    All coming with the T5U console setup for their class with a future fleet upgrade on the horizon or in their FT5U layout an the PAthfinder gets a retroactive buff.

    Derivation from this pattern is entirely possible but I would be very surprised (maybe evn positively) about that.

    I want a defiant T6 bad.... but if they go the the same route as the pathfinder... im done with this game.
  • seriousdaveseriousdave Member Posts: 2,777 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    tgo533 wrote: »
    I want a defiant T6 bad.... but if they go the the same route as the pathfinder... im done with this game.

    Srsly what else dou you expect them to do? After the patfinder and JHSS incidents I don't expect anything else in the future. Reselling older ships for higher prices was always their thing, people just now finally notice since **** got steep with 30 bucks per ship and the the overpriced upgrade tokens.
  • evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 6,950 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Like i said in another thread, the pictures and some of the descriptions have me expecting a 5 or 9 pack of "Hero" pilot ships with commander slots.

    T6 Defiant
    T6 Sovereign
    T6 Nova (only because the Intrepid was already done)

    T6 BoP
    T6 Negh'Var
    T6 Klink Science

    T6 T'Varo is it? The Enterprise era replica
    T6 Mogai
    T6 Romulan Science

    This would also makes business sense, because it covers all 3 ship classes, unlike the Command ships, which would boost sales, in addition to the fan favorite status, which would also boost sales. It would take the same amount of time, if not less time, because it's the same number of ships, but with the basic design schemes already known.

    Pilot is also the first spec that can really make sense on all hero ships.
    Lifetime Subscriber since Beta
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  • pteal1979pteal1979 Member Posts: 14 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    timelord79 wrote: »
    special console: actually, no idea. Maybe a unique attack pattern maneuver type thing with set boni if used with quad cannons and cloak reducing the energy cost for the cannons, or rerouting all weapons power through engines EPS conduits, so all energy weapons run on engines power. and maybe upgrading the Defiant's cloak to battle cloak

    For a special console I would like to see a helmsman console, which would give you access to some unique manoeuvres (similar to rock and roll in the pilot spec).

    1. Hard About, this would do a quick 180 turn

    2. Loop the loop, the ship will loop up and down behind a ship in you rear arc (as the defiant has been seen to do in the show on many occasions)

    3. Quick getaway, your ship does a quick warp hop 10km away.
  • medalionemissarymedalionemissary Member Posts: 612 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    An insult to the Defiant class

    Piloted by a bunch of n00bs and got themselves killed

    They don't deserve to have a T6 class dedicated to that wreck
    Deep Space Nine in HD, make it so!
  • straden0straden0 Member Posts: 78 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Obvious console choice that I'm surprised noone has said it but..

    Battle cloak!
  • warpedcorewarpedcore Member Posts: 362 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Srsly what else dou you expect them to do? After the patfinder and JHSS incidents I don't expect anything else in the future. Reselling older ships for higher prices was always their thing, people just now finally notice since **** got steep with 30 bucks per ship and the the overpriced upgrade tokens.

    That'll be exactly how it goes, too. They can't let the actual canon ships fade away. As much as everyone wants to harp on "well the hero ships are 30 years old..." they aren't out dated. Most of them are supposed to serve for a century or more, according to Lore.

    Until or unless these designs and this game attract the attention of CBS and it somehow shows up on Television, this game isn't Trek without two key components.

    They need recognizable starships, specifically, the hero ships.

    Voice acting by recognized Star Trek actors.

    Take those away and you can call this Star Trek Online all you want, but it'll still just be a generic space adventure game. The hero ships and the desire of the players to fly their beloved hero ships is a major component in keeping this game Star Trek. Of course they're going to continue to upgrade them.

    Now, as for the business model, this is what you get in Free to Play. This is what the player base crowed about for a year and a half. Those of us with common sense argued that if this game lost it's subscription model, that this is what would happen. These Devs don't donate their time out of the goodness of their hearts. They do it to turn a profit, and selling over priced Starships to fanbois is how they do that. It's how they put food on the table.

    Would I prefer they went back to a sub model? Absolutely, but right now they're making money hand over fist, because people are willing to pay for those over priced ships. It's economics. Don't like the direction the game is heading? Stop buying.
  • baelogventurebaelogventure Member Posts: 1,002 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    The T6 Defiant is going to get the T6 Intrepid treatment.

    Cmd Tac
    LTC Tac
    Lt Sci/Pilot
    Lt Eng
    Lt Uni (Replaces Ens Tac)

    5 Tac, 3 Eng, 2 Sci consoles (Or 5-3-3 if they make it +1 over T6 base)

    A new console or weapon that gains a set bonus with the Cloak Console and Quad Cannons.

    A new starship trait.
  • mosul33mosul33 Member Posts: 836 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    straden0 wrote: »
    Obvious console choice that I'm surprised noone has said it but..

    Battle cloak!

    Hehe I think cuz that was a natural assumption for a 2pc or 3pc set bonus skill. Some-what similar like the voth ships have. Probably the 3pc set bonus (quad cannons+cloak console+new console) it would be my guess. Now that would be pure awesomeness.
    The 5 tac consoles layout is also an allmost sure thing. Only thing remain to see its the weapon configuration: if its gonna be a 5/2 or they will go with the standard 4/3.

    As for unique console and starship trait, i think something engine related... engine power lvls... something to relate to quad cannons engine energy consumtion aswell as the new reroute power to weapons skill. I think maybe some bonus to diminuish that power drain from the engines...
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,001 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    The T6 Defiant is going to get the T6 Intrepid treatment.

    Cmd Tac
    LTC Tac
    Lt Sci/Pilot
    Lt Eng
    Lt Uni (Replaces Ens Tac)

    5 Tac, 3 Eng, 2 Sci consoles (Or 5-3-3 if they make it +1 over T6 base)

    A new console or weapon that gains a set bonus with the Cloak Console and Quad Cannons.

    A new starship trait.

    4 Tac, 3 Eng, 3 Sci, actually. The 5th tactical console is the fleet upgrade. Only if they include it (and +1 the Pathfinder retroactively) you'll see 5/3/3. The fifth sci console on the Pathfinder is it's T5U/T6 console because the ship was treated differently and got a third tac console as fleet upgrade (for whatever reason).
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • davideightdavideight Member Posts: 458 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    it will be named valiant class variant. because its using the shape of the uss valiant early concept art as the UI shield element suggests.

    im expecting either

    5/2 weapons, or

    4/3 weapons with build-in rapid fire dual quantum launcher

    i expect it to have a small set with quad cannons, so the quad cannon can procc a rapid fire mode for the launcher max once every 15seconds. (rapid fire makes you fire them like the show suggets, faster torp travel speed)

    generally i expect it to have this dual quantum launcher OR at least a modified animation for the torp launchers!


    consoles id prefer 5,3(+1 fleet),3 but i would sacrifice a tac console if we therefore get a 5/2 loadout.


    seating?


    com tac,
    ens tac (if the pilot is a tac, this one would become sci i guess),
    lt uni,lt eng,
    ltcom eng or tactical /pilot

    (this would be 12 seatings, i think standard is 12 right? ^^ this layout would have 5 bos and no innate sci bo)

    id suggest a low sci layout, with sci only if you sacrifice the lt universal for it.

    the defiant never had sci capabilities, and i really would like to see a heavy tac+eng thing so we can fight with it. not so much sci, im really satisfied with having one sci guy for HE/sciteam switching.


    please cryptic dont make it a com tac and a ltcom tac fixed plus pilot lt, it would heavily destroy pilot usage cause of interfering globals!!! the nandi already got gimped this way.

    please make the ltcom tac the pilot hybrid otherwise its really really wasted.
  • sunfranckssunfrancks Member Posts: 3,925 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    Seen an outline image of the new Defiant and T'Varo.

    The Defiant looks similar to one of the prototype drawings made for the real ship..
    Fed: Eng Lib Borg (Five) Tac Andorian (Shen) Sci Alien/Klingon (Maelrock) KDF:Tac Romulan KDF (Sasha) Tac Klingon (K'dopis)
    Founder, member and former leader to Pride Of The Federation Fleet.
    What I feel after I hear about every decision made since Andre "Mobile Games Generalisimo" Emerson arrived...
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  • hyperionx09hyperionx09 Member Posts: 1,709 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    I expect the console might provide basic pilot maneuver capability, or if not, is a double-quantum torpedo console. After all, Cryptic's been turning otherwise decent special weapons into consoles instead; the last time we got any unique ship weapon that was usable on multiple ships rather than being confined to a console slot was on the Regent (not including lockbox/lobi/promo ships with unique weapons, such as the Tholian Thermionic or Voth Chroniton-Transphasic).

    It would be nice if it was a 4/3 layout with fixed Dual Quantums (preferably set to scale from XII to XIV so we don't have a repeat of the Patrol Escort or DSDs with un-upgradable weapons stuck at Mark XII). But I doubt it; and fully expect a flat 4/3 layout with nothing new.

    As far as console sets go, I'm expecting a 3-pc set bonus (if including the Quad Cannons; otherwise 2-pc if just Cloak and new Console) possibly granting Battle Cloak. Otherwise, probably just some passive boosts that might warrant not needing to equip an RCS or a Res console.

    I also expect the Pathfinder setup rather than the Andromeda setup, since unlike the Andromeda, the Defiant is already plenty effective with its 7 Tac options (as was the Pathfinder with its 7 Science options), and is fairly mobile enough.

    It wouldn't beat any of the more dedicated Originals, but it would at least be competent in the T6 meta (the way the Andromeda manages).

    The Starship Trait could also possibly grant Pilot Maneuvers while equipped, but has a longer CD compared to proper pilot ships. More realistically though, I expect it could also be a Double Quantum Launcher, similar to the Tac Pilot variant's micro torpedo Mastery Trait.
  • induperatorinduperator Member Posts: 806 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    timelord79 wrote: »
    Tactical/Pilot commander
    Tactical Lt Commander
    Science/Pilot Lieutenant
    Engineering Lieutenant
    Lieutenant universal

    It would be pretty unfair for the Tier 6 Defiant to have a specialised Commander station since other Tier 6 Iconic refits have normal Tactical, Engineering and Science station, I hope that the upcoming Defiant will have a normal Tactical Commander seat.
  • dubshack79dubshack79 Member Posts: 13 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    I'm a long time 3D Studio Max designer, but honestly I haven't done any major projects since I graduated ITT Tech in 2005 I think... but until pilot ships came along I was SOOOOO Incredibly frustrated about the lack of a T6 Defiant, and the design of the Phantom (and intel ships in general) are so against the starship convention design I was used to... its like a bad china plate. So I went in the program and started playing with designs... pretty sure they're on a hard drive I replaced recently, and they weren't fully developed, but I recall having in mind making the nose in some way similar to the Pathfinder... by the time it would have been finished, as ridiculous as it sounds,it would have looked just like the Mercury class. Except perhaps instead of wings it would have the spoilers from the Phantom or swept back wings in the fashon of the Klingon pilot ships.

    I guess that's why I love this pack so much... strangely, it was EXACTLY what I wanted design-wise, and the pilot maneuvers just put them way over the top.

    So as much as they take ideas from the Defiant, and if you mix the Ajax hull with the Icarus nose you can make it more Defiant like... part of me does still think an Iconic Defiant is due. (an Iconic T6 B'rell is RIDICULOUSLY due) Honestly if I have any hope for the design, it will just be the same as the original, only perhaps more streamlined, engines as wide but thinner, like wings but thicker, and the saucer blended into that completely, with perhaps a smoothed out nose... I dunno. I'm starting to trust the designers, the last Iconic set wasn't my favorite (except maybe the Negvar) but the Command and Pilot ships have really been big successes in my opinion, design wise.
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,001 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    It would be pretty unfair for the Tier 6 Defiant to have a specialised Commander station since no other Tier 6 Iconic refits have normal Tactical, Engineering and Science station, I hope that the upcoming Defiant will have a normal Tactical Commander seat.

    It's fascinating how many people still don't get the ruleset behind ship layout and just go with whatever they want or "think would be best".

    Intel ships: Intel ships.

    Command Battelcruisers: Command ships.

    Pilot escorts: Pilot ships.

    Defiant: Escort.

    Galaxy: Cruiser.

    Intrepid: Science vessel.

    etc. - this alone determines the commander seat. A specialist ship will have a specialized commander, all the other ships have their main class trait as commander station, i.e. a excort/raptor will always have a CMDR tac, a cruiser/battlecruiser will always have a CMDR eng and so on.
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • induperatorinduperator Member Posts: 806 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    angrytarg wrote: »
    It's fascinating how many people still don't get the ruleset behind ship layout and just go with whatever they want or "think would be best".

    Intel ships: Intel ships.

    Command Battelcruisers: Command ships.

    Pilot escorts: Pilot ships.

    Defiant: Escort.

    Galaxy: Cruiser.

    Intrepid: Science vessel.

    etc. - this alone determines the commander seat. A specialist ship will have a specialized commander, all the other ships have their main class trait as commander station, i.e. a excort/raptor will always have a CMDR tac, a cruiser/battlecruiser will always have a CMDR eng and so on.

    Well I understand why, you would want your favourite ship to have better stats, anyone would but the specialist seats should be left to the Specialised ships and the canon ship refits are not specialized so they should just have normal seats.

    I can't say I'm being objective, I loathe the Defiant with a passion I honestly hate that over glorified clich
  • orangeitisorangeitis Member Posts: 5,222 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    I'm predicting that at least before tier 7, the Tactical Escort ship type will not be a Pilot ship. There's no precedent for it anyway. The closest it will probably get is a Pilot Lt set. MAYBE a Pilot LtCmdr seat. The weapons will not change either. IMHO, OP's "wish" is too identical to the Mercury-class.
  • medalionemissarymedalionemissary Member Posts: 612 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    I would argue that the Defiant was going to be a prototype concept like a Delta Flyer, a smaller manueverable vessel that would one day become the Pilot ships... at the very least, T6 could be a hybrid, as it's probably still bigger than the average pilot ship, or should be, for the bulk to take damage.
    Deep Space Nine in HD, make it so!
  • warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 9,205 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    You guys hoping the T6 Defiant become something entirely different are only setting yourselves up for heartbreak. Expect the T6 Defiant to be basically an improved version of what you see from Fleet T5U with:

    +1 BOFF skill count

    NO lower tiered ship brought to T6 conversion has ever been a Full Specialization Ship (Cmdr Hybrid Station)

    Limited Specialization Access with Lt or LtCmdr, NOT full Cmdr

    Retain same Console Layout as Fleet T5U

    No Full Specialization Ship Perks since it's not an Intel/Command/Pilot Ship - No Gather Intel, no Inspiration, no Pilot Maneuvers

    If you don't like what I'm saying, then by all means, look at what Cryptic has done already and school yourself. Look up:
    T5 -> T6 Intrepid
    T5 -> T6 Galaxy
    T5 -> T6 Negh'Var
    T5 -> T6 D'Deridex
    T5 -> T6 Bugship

    There were no drastic changes in any of these conversions. They were natural Next Tier improvements.
    XzRTofz.gif
  • gl2814egl2814e Member Posts: 328 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    NO lower tiered ship brought to T6 conversion has ever been a Full Specialization Ship (Cmdr Hybrid Station)

    Limited Specialization Access with Lt or LtCmdr, NOT full Cmdr

    Retain same Console Layout as Fleet...

    Because Cryptic is incapable of changing their minds, previous courses, or absolute rules...

    To be fair, you're probably right. But you shouldn't apply their previous statements/behaviors as absolute rules.
  • bridgernbridgern Member Posts: 709 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    You guys hoping the T6 Defiant become something entirely different are only setting yourselves up for heartbreak. Expect the T6 Defiant to be basically an improved version of what you see from Fleet T5U with:

    +1 BOFF skill count

    NO lower tiered ship brought to T6 conversion has ever been a Full Specialization Ship (Cmdr Hybrid Station)

    Limited Specialization Access with Lt or LtCmdr, NOT full Cmdr

    Retain same Console Layout as Fleet T5U

    No Full Specialization Ship Perks since it's not an Intel/Command/Pilot Ship - No Gather Intel, no Inspiration, no Pilot Maneuvers

    If you don't like what I'm saying, then by all means, look at what Cryptic has done already and school yourself. Look up:
    T5 -> T6 Intrepid
    T5 -> T6 Galaxy
    T5 -> T6 Negh'Var
    T5 -> T6 D'Deridex
    T5 -> T6 Bugship

    There were no drastic changes in any of these conversions. They were natural Next Tier improvements.

    Exactly, at least one here does not dream of hot ice cream.
    Bridger.png
  • orangeitisorangeitis Member Posts: 5,222 Arc User
    edited June 2015
    You guys hoping the T6 Defiant become something entirely different are only setting yourselves up for heartbreak. Expect the T6 Defiant to be basically an improved version of what you see from Fleet T5U with:

    +1 BOFF skill count

    NO lower tiered ship brought to T6 conversion has ever been a Full Specialization Ship (Cmdr Hybrid Station)

    Limited Specialization Access with Lt or LtCmdr, NOT full Cmdr

    Retain same Console Layout as Fleet T5U

    No Full Specialization Ship Perks since it's not an Intel/Command/Pilot Ship - No Gather Intel, no Inspiration, no Pilot Maneuvers

    If you don't like what I'm saying, then by all means, look at what Cryptic has done already and school yourself. Look up:
    T5 -> T6 Intrepid
    T5 -> T6 Galaxy
    T5 -> T6 Negh'Var
    T5 -> T6 D'Deridex
    T5 -> T6 Bugship

    There were no drastic changes in any of these conversions. They were natural Next Tier improvements.
    All this.
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