Also, Hachae s'Temer. You know what, I like the Republic storyline enough, and felt connected enough to it, that this name for a city actually brought a tear to my eye (I'm a sucker for thought or feeling-provoking plot points, I know...). Please make a new thread in the Romulan Gameplay section for exactly this request. I want the city named that
I sent this name suggestion (along with many other suggestions) to Cryptc months ago, but there was never a thread dedicated to the suggestion. However, ...
I'm going to post this yet again. The galaxy map. Which pretty clearly shows the Republic holding all of Tau Dewa, Psi Velorum, and a quarter of Alpha Centauri. Rator is pretty clearly in Federation space. And the RSE is in Iota Pavonis, up at the top.
The Republic definitely has a big presence in all of these areas. As I noted, we actually even have territory all the way up in Iota Pavonis: Delta Corvi. Anyone who claims that the Republic is just a small plot of starscape in Tau Dewa isn't looking at the new maps very well.
I'll admit that Rator is still in Romulan space, although just within the border. It's basically on the Neutral Zone, within half a sector of the official divide between Federation and Romulan space.
It does make it amusing, however, when Imperialists claim that Mol'Rihan is somehow 'too close' to Federation and Klingon space. Mol'Rihan is well over a sector away from the Neutral Zone. And the space to the south of the Nimbus Sector is a de facto neutral zone between the Republic and the Klingon Empire - it's disputed territory. But that disputed area is still a greater distance away from Mol'Rihan, than the Neutral Zone is distanced from Rator.
A little note: The Republic isn't exactly a terrorist organization anymore (like it ever was),
Then it would, of course, be willing to turn its war criminals over to face justice?
D'Tan's personal hitman slaughtered a troop of Tholian archaeologists unprovoked, and under his command the 'Romulan republic' is waging a war of extermination against the people who were already inhabiting Dewa III.
Somehow I doubt that D'Tan and his band of murders are willing to stop. There's too much political, strategic and propaganda value in keeping their 'Second New Romulus'.
It is, after all, far easier to kill scientists and take their work, rather than invent something yourself. Even if activating equipment you don't understand came within a hair's breadth of destroying your ill-gotten planet.
and the Star Empire is far weaker than the Republic, its ships are over 30 years old while the Republic's are almost brand new, the Empires IRF must be at most one-thousand ships (this includes Tal'Shiar), and the Empire could never be what it was, but the Republic CAN.
Ah, I see. You believe might makes right. How noble.
The ones who have committed war crimes against the Republic, Empire, and Federation will be tried of course
So you only believe in justice when it will earn you political favor. That explains a lot about your stances.
Then it would, of course, be willing to turn its war criminals over to face justice?
D'Tan's personal hitman slaughtered a troop of Tholian archaeologists unprovoked, and under his command the 'Romulan republic' is waging a war of extermination against the people who were already inhabiting Dewa III.
Dewa III was uninhabited. There were, however, a group of armed Tholian soldiers who started shooting the armed Republic soldiers that were also exploring the planet at the time.
But the Tholians are at a standing war with the flesh-and-bloods of the Beta/Alpha Quadrants. This is nothing new. The firefight could have happened, and very often does occur, anywhere else at any other time.
It is, after all, far easier to kill scientists and take their work, rather than invent something yourself. Even if activating equipment you don't understand came within a hair's breadth of destroying your ill-gotten planet.
The Iconian gate, yeah that was a problem. But hey, it worked out in the long run thank goodness. And I honestly can't blame D'Tan or any other scientists from wanting to get the old gate running again. I (in-char Triana) am also a scientist, and I'm not immune from blame for wanting to discover the secrets of the gate either.
But you've lost me on the "kill scientists and take their work" part. If you're talking about the Tholians we found exploring Dewa III, there was no research or scientific works created. They were exploring the planet, just as we were. But they were also armed military scientists, and engaged in the ongoing armed conflict between the Tholian Assembly and the rest of the Beta/Alpha. And the base we later found turned out to be a military research facility, where they were preparing for continued offensives against everyone - Republic, RSE, Federation, and Klingon alike.
I'm going to post this yet again. The galaxy map. Which pretty clearly shows the Republic holding all of Tau Dewa, Psi Velorum, and a quarter of Alpha Centauri. Rator is pretty clearly in Federation space. And the RSE is in Iota Pavonis, up at the top.
Also, chipg7, it looks pretty clear from the map that Rator is in fed territory, but then the Jouret system seems to be Romulan despite being on the fed side of the border.
Also, chipg7, it looks pretty clear from the map that Rator is in fed territory, but then the Jouret system seems to be Romulan despite being on the fed side of the border.
Also, chipg7, it looks pretty clear from the map that Rator is in fed territory, but then the Jouret system seems to be Romulan despite being on the fed side of the border.
And though it may look like it on that old map, if you actually fly in those areas, Rator is well within the Romulan side of the Neutral Zone (just turn on your Astrometrics)
Also, chipg7, it looks pretty clear from the map that Rator is in fed territory, but then the Jouret system seems to be Romulan despite being on the fed side of the border.
Rator is, for all intents and purposes, inside or at the very edge of the Neutral Zone. So at that zoom-out it's hard to tell where it falls. It's right on the spot where blue and green mesh together in the galaxy map, for sure.
Check the existing map for the Psi Velorum Sector Block itself. It's within half a sector of the Neutral Zone, but just barely on the Romulan side - although I'd expect that the actual Neutral Zone area extends to about that far, and the dividing line is the official divide between Romulan and Federation space.
Rator is, for all intents and purposes, inside or at the very edge of the Neutral Zone. So at that zoom-out it's hard to tell where it falls. It's right on the spot where blue and green mesh together in the galaxy map, for sure.
Check the existing map for the Psi Velorum Sector Block itself. It's within half a sector of the Neutral Zone, but just barely on the Romulan side - although I'd expect that the actual Neutral Zone area extends to about that far, and the dividing line is the official divide between Romulan and Federation space.
Now if you want to get nitpicky, look up some of the OLD, OLD maps (at launch). They have the mistake on them, because of the rushed launch deadline, of having Rator where Chulan is and visa versa. :eek:
Now if you want to get nitpicky, look up some of the OLD, OLD maps (at launch). They have the mistake on them, because of the rushed launch deadline, of having Rator where Chulan is and visa versa. :eek:
Lol, oh well. With that many systems and a less-than-perfect canon guide for where they all go, mistakes will happen.
Either way, I'm maintain that Chulan and Rator are both within or just on the edge of the 'Neutral Zone area.' We know from the series that the Neutral Zone isn't just a line to cross over, there are systems and stuff right in there. So that black line is just the official cross-over point.
I would support making the Neutral Zone an actual, sizable area in the new maps. Maybe half a sector in width. Chulan probably within it, Rator probably just outside it and on the very edge of Romulan space.
Take a look at the TOS episode 'Balance of Terror'. Look how 'stupidly' close Romulus and Remii (Remus) are to the Neutral Zone. :P
I know, eh? Although at least those weren't specifically chosen to be close to the Neutral Zone. Whereas Rator was chosen as the new RSE capital about 250 years after the Zone was drawn.
If I were picking the RSE capital, I'd have picked a system that was at least a full sector's length away.
EDIT: found the info I was looking for. The Path to 2409, vol.9, ch.1 - http://sto.gamepedia.com/Accolade/Lore#Volume_9
Achernar and Abraxas were the other main contenders for the new RSE capital, though neither have an in-game location. Though unless they were somehow in Federation space, I'd expect either of them would've been a better strategic location than Rator.
Dewa III was uninhabited. There were, however, a group of armed Tholian soldiers who started shooting the armed Republic soldiers that were also exploring the planet at the time.
I think you'll find that the Tholian inhabitation long-predated the Romulan occupation.
The immediate reaction to seeing a Tholian archaeologist group was to pursue them. Once they are cornered at their dig site, they warn the romulan intruders that acts of aggression will be met with force. A perfectly reasonable response when you're being stalked by a heavily-armed band of terrorists.
At this point, the captain's immediately decides to - and I quote the mission here - 'defeat the Tholians'. Until this heavily armed terrorist approaches closer with an aggressive intent, having been warned and given every opportunity to back down, the Tholians do not open fire. Nor do they approach the captain at all, remaining in their dig site.
They cannot retreat, due to the fact that they're stuck in a hole in the ground with their only way out blocked.
The captain is shown having the ability to inflict nonlethal harm - an ability demonstrated on the animals of Dewa III, fully shown via the ingame engine. However, apparently a Tholian's life is considered worth less than that of an animal, since their entire archaeological team is killed.
But the Tholians are at a standing war with the flesh-and-bloods of the Beta/Alpha Quadrants. This is nothing new.
I'd love for you to give a citation for that. Check the game's timeline. You will find that this unprovoked act of aggression was the first. Everything else that involves fighting the Tholians - Nukara, Azure Nebula, Power Source, et cetera - all occur after a Romulan captain slaughters this group of archaeologist, and claims the planet they were already inhabiting.
Tholians were on relatively good diplomatic terms with the major powers of the Alpha Quadrant at the end of The Next Generation - their diplomats were willing to trade favors with high-ranking Starfleet officials, and Romulan politicians had regular meetings with them.
Nowhere in the Path to 2409 are the Tholians mentioned at all. We have no reason to assume a change to the status quo.
The information on Tholian lockboxes backs this up - the conflicts with the Tholians are mentioned to be 'recent'.
From that timeline, the only conclusion we can draw is that the Romulan captain provoked the Tholian Assembly into active warfare against the 'Romulan Republic' by his actions. The Tholians started striking the Klingons and Federation only after they allied themselves with Romulans.
But you've lost me on the "kill scientists and take their work" part. If you're talking about the Tholians we found exploring Dewa III, there was no research or scientific works created. They were exploring the planet, just as we were..
Dude, you literally loot Tholian Research
Do you have any idea what type of engineering it would take to bring a ruined Dewan facility a hundred and fifty THOUSAND years old back to operational status? Yet the Tholians managed to get the infrastructure back online - and not only that, they were able to keep the ambient temperature, pressure and atmosphere composition at Tholian standard (over four hundred degrees), without harming any of the ancient technology.
This is an absolutely immense effort. It's mentioned in the game that the cost is so high, that Tholians usually keep technology they're investigating in its original environment, and use EV suits to investigate it. The only reason to go to such great lengths is long-term habitation - which makes sense, given the difficulty involved in understanding such foreign technology.
After all, there weren't any other ships near Dewa III when the Romulan invaders landed, yet a large number of Tholians were already on its surface.
People blame the Tholians for being 'xenophobic', but it seems the natural response when most of the local species treat anyone who doesn't have the same number of limbs as subhuman.
I think you'll find that the Tholian inhabitation long-predated the Romulan occupation.
The immediate reaction to seeing a Tholian archaeologist group was to pursue them. Once they are cornered at their dig site, they warn the romulan intruders that acts of aggression will be met with force. A perfectly reasonable response when you're being stalked by a heavily-armed band of terrorists.
The Tholians and the flesh-and-bloods of the Beta/Alpha Quadrants are at armed conflict. Of course shooting on-sight is the first thing that anyone would do - both Tholian, and Romulan.
They're an intensely xenophopic species, and were introduced into the game in Season 6 specifically as an aggressor. Season 6 was released in July 2012, which is well before the Romulans became a playable faction in May 2013. There was a Republic before the playable faction of course, but that came around in Season 7 (as per the Notes on the Romulan Republic in-game history) - one full season after the Tholians were already a problem.
The Tholians' introduction immediately included the ground warzone on Nukara Prime. They have since also tried to help the Crystaline Entity destroy flesh-and-blood worlds.
They're an intensely xenophopic species, and were introduced into the game in Season 6 specifically as an aggressor. Season 6 was released in July 2012, which is well before the Romulans became a playable faction in May 2013. There was a Republic before the playable faction of course, but that came around in Season 7 (as per the Notes on the Romulan Republic in-game history) - one full season after the Tholians were already a problem.
I'm explicitly referring to the in-game chronology.
Cryptic isn't restricted to releasing episodes in the same order out-of-game as they occur ingame. It's especially stupid to think that the entire Romulan plotline happened after the events of seasons 1-6. What, you think that the Romulan Republic was founded AFTER the dominion arc ended?
Please.
This is just another example of Cryptic using a later update to reveal that ingame events were the consequences of your captain's actions. For example, they updated the borg/undine episodes to show that your captain was responsible for rescuing the fake Eric Cooper.
I'm explicitly referring to the in-game chronology.
Cryptic isn't restricted to releasing episodes in the same order out-of-game as they occur ingame. It's especially stupid to think that the entire Romulan plotline happened after the events of seasons 1-6. What, you think that the Romulan Republic was founded AFTER the dominion arc ended?
Please.
This is just another example of Cryptic using a later update to reveal that ingame events were the consequences of your captain's actions. For example, they updated the borg/undine episodes to show that your captain was responsible for rescuing the fake Eric Cooper.
Regardless, Word of Gods says the Tholians are the aggressors. End of discussion. Why are we even talking about this in a thread devoted to something else?
I'm explicitly referring to the in-game chronology.
Well, I've given you more than enough proof, and even offered a host of citations when you asked for them. Your call what to do with it.
(Back to in-character / RP stuff...)
The Tholians were on Nukara and fighting the Federation and Klingon Empire, before New Romulus was settled. They had begun an active conflict in the Beta/Alpha Quadrant before the Tal Shiar / Elachi raid on Virinat, and before the encounter with the Tholians on Dewa III. That is why we were authorized to engage them. Although most of that initial exploration team is no longer part of my crew, I stand by their actions that day.
And until peace with the Tholians is achieved, I will continue to engage them on-sight, as are my standing orders.
But, as is common, many Romulans are still being deceived - some willingly and joyfully so - by the RSE's propaganda. And when presented with facts, the RSE will do anything to discredit those facts - in this case, ignoring them entirely, as if they didn't exist.
Regardless, Word of Gods says the Tholians are the aggressors. End of discussion
You linked a wiki page. In ten seconds I can make it say that the Tholians are motivated solely by their love of cute puppies.
The Tholians were on Nukara and fighting the Federation and Klingon Empire, before New Romulus was settled. They had begun an active conflict in the Beta/Alpha Quadrant before the Tal Shiar / Elachi raid on Virinat, and before the encounter with the Tholians on Dewa III. That is why we were authorized to engage them. Although most of that initial exploration team is no longer part of my crew, I stand by their actions that day.
If you investigate the order of episodes for Romulan players, you will find that the investigation of Dewa III predates all other conflicts with the Tholians. Even the Tholian Red Alert missions in the Tau Dewa block are impossible to take before you've killed the Tholian archaeologists.
There is, in fact, no evidence of an ongoing conflict with the Tholians before The Search for New Romulus.
The Capitol of ch"Rihan had many names:
Val'danadex Trel
Ra'tleihfi
Dartha
Ki Baratan
I'm partial to "Val'danadex Trel."
But the Capitol of ch'Mol'Rihan ought to be named Hachae s'Temer (Heart of Temer), since without Temer's noble self sacrifice, things would be very different.
I'm actually using that name for it in my current Foundry mission. (I stuck in a console with some news stories, including one dealing with Republic Senate proceedings.)
You linked a wiki page. In ten seconds I can make it say that the Tholians are motivated solely by their love of cute puppies.
And you'd be promptly reverted and likely get a temp ban for vandalism.
The storyline there fits with the canon portrayal of the Tholians. Their schtick is being mysterious guys who do their own thing without caring overmuch what anyone else thinks of their presence or behavior. Sometimes they're willing to talk (they took a non-aggression pact with the Dominion in DS9, and in Nemesis Tal'aura had an appointment with the Tholian ambassador to the Star Empire that conveniently got her out of the room before her thalaron bomb went off, and nobody apparently thought it unusual), but other times they attack without apparent provocation (the kidnapping of the USS Defiant NCC-1764). This is one of the latter cases.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
There is, in fact, no evidence of an ongoing conflict with the Tholians before The Search for New Romulus.
(In-character)
And thus is the Imperial propaganda, or in this case the straight denial of facts.
If the RSE feels that the Republic has somehow wronged the Tholian Assembly, then the RSE leadership (whoever it is right now...) can take it up with the Tholians themselves and offer condolences. The Republic, however, will keep maintaining the security of the Beta/Alpha Quadrants in the meantime. The Tholians are, at this moment, a valid threat to our part of the galaxy.
If the RSE wishes to ignore that threat, and as a result make themselves an easy target - for both the Tholians and their allies in the cosmozoan species known only as the Crystaline Entities - then I simply fear for the millions of Romulan lives that will be lost as a result of inept leadership.
Clearly "all hail Sela" and "long live the Empire" are mantras that no longer guarantee the protection of innocent Romulan - and Reman - lives.
I was wanting to see Sela redeem herself, but after the way she so needlessly sent Taris over the edge this last mission, I actually felt like sending her over the edge as well. Unless she starts regretting her actions sometime, my sympathy is a bit stretched now.
I was wanting to see Sela redeem herself, but after the way she so needlessly sent Taris over the edge this last mission, I actually felt like sending her over the edge as well. Unless she starts regretting her actions sometime, my sympathy is a bit stretched now.
Seriously, during the argument between Taris and Sela I imagined my character setting their weapon to stun and waiting for the first excuse to use it. Then seeing what came next...
Though at the same time it was Taris who not only set certain events into motion but actually made things worse every time she tried to fix things. So I can't exactly blame Sela for her action either. Taris was paving her own personal highway to hell with her "good intentions", and she was taking the galaxy with her.
Still though, I think if given the chance Taris would have agreed to (temporarily) join forces with the Republic. If nothing else what influence she had left could have been a valuable asset for the upcoming war.
I'm reserving judgement for whatever it is that Sela ultimately ends up doing.
I was wanting to see Sela redeem herself, but after the way she so needlessly sent Taris over the edge this last mission, I actually felt like sending her over the edge as well. Unless she starts regretting her actions sometime, my sympathy is a bit stretched now.
You need to read up on the Romulan concept of Mnhei'sahe. (Ruling-passion)
Her redemption would be at the end of a fellow romulan strangling the life out of her.
About the border-question I guess that is tricky (it is hard to draw lines in the "sand" if the sand is stretching in three dimensions, so to speak). When I traveled around I had the impression that much more than just one sector belong to the RSE (which means you could see the RSE-logo on the map). But that may change from time to time...so I am not sure. However I would say it would be very strange if the capture of such a important world like Rator is never mentioned in play etc.
In-char
Tolmarius (and sorry that I not answered quicker)
Your last question first: Rator III was started to be call by many as New Romulus long before D'Tan found his little hell erm shining city upon a hill (according to the path to 2409). Because this was the first New Romulus, it is only logical (and the Vulcan-loving Republicans should understand logic *g*) to call the Republican main world SECOND New Romulus.
About the "true Romulan" question, well we all have the right to define what we see as true and right - and your Republican buddies do that all the day. I define what true Romulans are out of the rich and long Romulan history and tradition, and that is the history and tradition of the RSE (and its forces). People who did not honour that are in my eyes not true Romulans (but of course could be teached to become so by the time).
About negotiations with Sela...well the Republic was willing to deal and become friends with Klingons (warcriminals which murdered thousands of Romulans), Reman terrorists (dito) and Federation (need I say more?). The only people they seem unwilling to forgive what they ignore so often while bowing towards old enemies are the people of their own nation. That IS strange...
A monument for Spock because his so called sacrifice. Well, than why not a monument for every damned captain and crewmember who dies while trying to do mor or less the same while they tried to evacuate people from Romulus? Is their sacrifice less important since they are not the beloved teachers of king D'Tan the miserable? It seems so...
And I want to add that it is strange that Spock was ready to "help" with the right tools and the right ship (or thought to be so) in a catastrophe nobody had seen coming. Perhaps he, too knows much more about this danger and avoided to warn the Empire - as other Vulcans did (which lead to diplomatic protest after it became obvious)
And you should leran to decide between signs of friendship and those of slavery. Honouring Spock in this strange way is much more the second than the first.
About the border-question I guess that is tricky (it is hard to draw lines in the "sand" if the sand is stretching in three dimensions, so to speak). When I traveled around I had the impression that much more than just one sector belong to the RSE (which means you could see the RSE-logo on the map). But that may change from time to time...so I am not sure. However I would say it would be very strange if the capture of such a important world like Rator is never mentioned in play etc.
For sure, it's not clear. But it makes sense that the borders aren't clear, as specific planets within Romulan space are choosing their allegiance. As such, the Republic has planets in every Romulan sector block, and so does the RSE. It'll be interesting to see if those change over time.
Your last question first: Rator III was started to be call by many as New Romulus long before D'Tan found his little hell erm shining city upon a hill (according to the path to 2409). Because this was the first New Romulus, it is only logical (and the Vulcan-loving Republicans should understand logic *g*) to call the Republican main world SECOND New Romulus.
A single city does not make a 'new Romulus' - it's an attempt at a new Ki'Baratan if anything. Our new homeworld is New Romulus, in the proper sense.
About the "true Romulan" question, well we all have the right to define what we see as true and right - and your Republican buddies do that all the day. I define what true Romulans are out of the rich and long Romulan history and tradition, and that is the history and tradition of the RSE (and its forces). People who did not honour that are in my eyes not true Romulans (but of course could be teached to become so by the time).
(quick out-of-char: yeah well, you're no true Scotsman either :P I kid, of course)
About negotiations with Sela...well the Republic was willing to deal and become friends with Klingons (warcriminals which murdered thousands of Romulans), Reman terrorists (dito) and Federation (need I say more?). The only people they seem unwilling to forgive what they ignore so often while bowing towards old enemies are the people of their own nation. That IS strange...
When Sela / the RSE stop committing violent acts against other Romulans - the very people she claims as her own - as well as the other major powers, then there might be an avenue for discussion.
But, let's go back to Khitomer in early 2409. The Federation, the Klingon Empire, the Republic, and the RSE were all in attendance to discuss peace - and Sela has her forces attempt to blow up the conference.
Shortly after, she invited Federation reps to Agrama for peace talks - and tried to detain them all, while sending a fleet to destroy Vulcan.
This is not someone who has has expressed a willingness to negotiate.
(and final note: I won't comment on the Spock monument. I feel a little funny debating that point - still probably too soon, but fair points in RP either way)
And I want to add that it is strange that Spock was ready to "help" with the right tools and the right ship (or thought to be so) in a catastrophe nobody had seen coming. Perhaps he, too knows much more about this danger and avoided to warn the Empire - as other Vulcans did (which lead to diplomatic protest after it became obvious)
You're obviously either not terribly familiar with the "Path to 2409," or are once more engaging in selective reading. The "Path to 2409" says:
"On Stardate 64333.4, a Romulan Mining Guild ship observes the start of a chain of events that will forever change the Alpha and Beta Quadrants. The star in the Hobus system, in the far reaches of Romulan space, begins to exhibit massive fluxuations of radiation. Days later, Ambassador Spock of the Federation appears before the Romulan Senate to warn them about the dangers of this star.
"Spock believes that if the Hobus star goes supernova, it could create a reaction that would threaten much of the Romulan Empire, and he asks the Senate to coordinate with Vulcan to find a solution. After a lengthy debate, the Senate rejects Spock's plan."
my problem with the hobus thing is the jellyfish :P supposedly this was a 'ohshi' moment and took a few days to happen... LaForge is good but how did he both pop off enough red matter to collapse the galaxy and design+build a whole new ship
Comments
I sent this name suggestion (along with many other suggestions) to Cryptc months ago, but there was never a thread dedicated to the suggestion. However, ...
So it has been written, so let it be done:
The Name of the Capitol on ch'Mol'Rihan Ought to be Named "Hachae s'Temer"
The Republic definitely has a big presence in all of these areas. As I noted, we actually even have territory all the way up in Iota Pavonis: Delta Corvi. Anyone who claims that the Republic is just a small plot of starscape in Tau Dewa isn't looking at the new maps very well.
I'll admit that Rator is still in Romulan space, although just within the border. It's basically on the Neutral Zone, within half a sector of the official divide between Federation and Romulan space.
It does make it amusing, however, when Imperialists claim that Mol'Rihan is somehow 'too close' to Federation and Klingon space. Mol'Rihan is well over a sector away from the Neutral Zone. And the space to the south of the Nimbus Sector is a de facto neutral zone between the Republic and the Klingon Empire - it's disputed territory. But that disputed area is still a greater distance away from Mol'Rihan, than the Neutral Zone is distanced from Rator.
D'Tan's personal hitman slaughtered a troop of Tholian archaeologists unprovoked, and under his command the 'Romulan republic' is waging a war of extermination against the people who were already inhabiting Dewa III.
Somehow I doubt that D'Tan and his band of murders are willing to stop. There's too much political, strategic and propaganda value in keeping their 'Second New Romulus'.
It is, after all, far easier to kill scientists and take their work, rather than invent something yourself. Even if activating equipment you don't understand came within a hair's breadth of destroying your ill-gotten planet.
Ah, I see. You believe might makes right. How noble.
So you only believe in justice when it will earn you political favor. That explains a lot about your stances.
Dewa III was uninhabited. There were, however, a group of armed Tholian soldiers who started shooting the armed Republic soldiers that were also exploring the planet at the time.
But the Tholians are at a standing war with the flesh-and-bloods of the Beta/Alpha Quadrants. This is nothing new. The firefight could have happened, and very often does occur, anywhere else at any other time.
The Iconian gate, yeah that was a problem. But hey, it worked out in the long run thank goodness. And I honestly can't blame D'Tan or any other scientists from wanting to get the old gate running again. I (in-char Triana) am also a scientist, and I'm not immune from blame for wanting to discover the secrets of the gate either.
But you've lost me on the "kill scientists and take their work" part. If you're talking about the Tholians we found exploring Dewa III, there was no research or scientific works created. They were exploring the planet, just as we were. But they were also armed military scientists, and engaged in the ongoing armed conflict between the Tholian Assembly and the rest of the Beta/Alpha. And the base we later found turned out to be a military research facility, where they were preparing for continued offensives against everyone - Republic, RSE, Federation, and Klingon alike.
Edited, as I forgot to enter the link.
Also, chipg7, it looks pretty clear from the map that Rator is in fed territory, but then the Jouret system seems to be Romulan despite being on the fed side of the border.
No your wrong, Jouret is in Romulan space
That is the old map, the new one coming in Season 10 clearly has the Romulan systems in Romulan space http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/9078783
And though it may look like it on that old map, if you actually fly in those areas, Rator is well within the Romulan side of the Neutral Zone (just turn on your Astrometrics)
arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline/#/discussion/1203368/pve-content-a-list-of-gamewide-polishing-pass-suggestions
Rator is, for all intents and purposes, inside or at the very edge of the Neutral Zone. So at that zoom-out it's hard to tell where it falls. It's right on the spot where blue and green mesh together in the galaxy map, for sure.
Check the existing map for the Psi Velorum Sector Block itself. It's within half a sector of the Neutral Zone, but just barely on the Romulan side - although I'd expect that the actual Neutral Zone area extends to about that far, and the dividing line is the official divide between Romulan and Federation space.
http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/sto.gamepedia.com/e/e0/Psi_Velorum_Sector_Block.png
Either way, it's stupidly close to Federation space, given that the RSE is still at conflict with the Feds.
See Rator is clearly within Romulan space. :P
Now if you want to get nitpicky, look up some of the OLD, OLD maps (at launch). They have the mistake on them, because of the rushed launch deadline, of having Rator where Chulan is and visa versa. :eek:
arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline/#/discussion/1203368/pve-content-a-list-of-gamewide-polishing-pass-suggestions
Take a look at the TOS episode 'Balance of Terror'. Look how 'stupidly' close Romulus and Remii (Remus) are to the Neutral Zone. :P
arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline/#/discussion/1203368/pve-content-a-list-of-gamewide-polishing-pass-suggestions
Lol, oh well. With that many systems and a less-than-perfect canon guide for where they all go, mistakes will happen.
Either way, I'm maintain that Chulan and Rator are both within or just on the edge of the 'Neutral Zone area.' We know from the series that the Neutral Zone isn't just a line to cross over, there are systems and stuff right in there. So that black line is just the official cross-over point.
I would support making the Neutral Zone an actual, sizable area in the new maps. Maybe half a sector in width. Chulan probably within it, Rator probably just outside it and on the very edge of Romulan space.
I know, eh? Although at least those weren't specifically chosen to be close to the Neutral Zone. Whereas Rator was chosen as the new RSE capital about 250 years after the Zone was drawn.
If I were picking the RSE capital, I'd have picked a system that was at least a full sector's length away.
EDIT: found the info I was looking for. The Path to 2409, vol.9, ch.1 - http://sto.gamepedia.com/Accolade/Lore#Volume_9
Achernar and Abraxas were the other main contenders for the new RSE capital, though neither have an in-game location. Though unless they were somehow in Federation space, I'd expect either of them would've been a better strategic location than Rator.
The immediate reaction to seeing a Tholian archaeologist group was to pursue them. Once they are cornered at their dig site, they warn the romulan intruders that acts of aggression will be met with force. A perfectly reasonable response when you're being stalked by a heavily-armed band of terrorists.
At this point, the captain's immediately decides to - and I quote the mission here - 'defeat the Tholians'. Until this heavily armed terrorist approaches closer with an aggressive intent, having been warned and given every opportunity to back down, the Tholians do not open fire. Nor do they approach the captain at all, remaining in their dig site.
They cannot retreat, due to the fact that they're stuck in a hole in the ground with their only way out blocked.
The captain is shown having the ability to inflict nonlethal harm - an ability demonstrated on the animals of Dewa III, fully shown via the ingame engine. However, apparently a Tholian's life is considered worth less than that of an animal, since their entire archaeological team is killed.
I'd love for you to give a citation for that. Check the game's timeline. You will find that this unprovoked act of aggression was the first. Everything else that involves fighting the Tholians - Nukara, Azure Nebula, Power Source, et cetera - all occur after a Romulan captain slaughters this group of archaeologist, and claims the planet they were already inhabiting.
Tholians were on relatively good diplomatic terms with the major powers of the Alpha Quadrant at the end of The Next Generation - their diplomats were willing to trade favors with high-ranking Starfleet officials, and Romulan politicians had regular meetings with them.
Nowhere in the Path to 2409 are the Tholians mentioned at all. We have no reason to assume a change to the status quo.
The information on Tholian lockboxes backs this up - the conflicts with the Tholians are mentioned to be 'recent'.
From that timeline, the only conclusion we can draw is that the Romulan captain provoked the Tholian Assembly into active warfare against the 'Romulan Republic' by his actions. The Tholians started striking the Klingons and Federation only after they allied themselves with Romulans.
Dude, you literally loot Tholian Research
Do you have any idea what type of engineering it would take to bring a ruined Dewan facility a hundred and fifty THOUSAND years old back to operational status? Yet the Tholians managed to get the infrastructure back online - and not only that, they were able to keep the ambient temperature, pressure and atmosphere composition at Tholian standard (over four hundred degrees), without harming any of the ancient technology.
This is an absolutely immense effort. It's mentioned in the game that the cost is so high, that Tholians usually keep technology they're investigating in its original environment, and use EV suits to investigate it. The only reason to go to such great lengths is long-term habitation - which makes sense, given the difficulty involved in understanding such foreign technology.
After all, there weren't any other ships near Dewa III when the Romulan invaders landed, yet a large number of Tholians were already on its surface.
People blame the Tholians for being 'xenophobic', but it seems the natural response when most of the local species treat anyone who doesn't have the same number of limbs as subhuman.
The Tholians and the flesh-and-bloods of the Beta/Alpha Quadrants are at armed conflict. Of course shooting on-sight is the first thing that anyone would do - both Tholian, and Romulan.
Sure, it's http://sto.gamepedia.com/Tholian_Assembly.
They're an intensely xenophopic species, and were introduced into the game in Season 6 specifically as an aggressor. Season 6 was released in July 2012, which is well before the Romulans became a playable faction in May 2013. There was a Republic before the playable faction of course, but that came around in Season 7 (as per the Notes on the Romulan Republic in-game history) - one full season after the Tholians were already a problem.
The Tholians' introduction immediately included the ground warzone on Nukara Prime. They have since also tried to help the Crystaline Entity destroy flesh-and-blood worlds.
Yes. It was a raid on a military research installation. You generally loot whatever you can carry in a raid.
search my forum post history... Ive stated the reasons a few times and Im not resurrecting those arguments. the forum is mostly free of those atm
I'm explicitly referring to the in-game chronology.
Cryptic isn't restricted to releasing episodes in the same order out-of-game as they occur ingame. It's especially stupid to think that the entire Romulan plotline happened after the events of seasons 1-6. What, you think that the Romulan Republic was founded AFTER the dominion arc ended?
Please.
This is just another example of Cryptic using a later update to reveal that ingame events were the consequences of your captain's actions. For example, they updated the borg/undine episodes to show that your captain was responsible for rescuing the fake Eric Cooper.
Regardless, Word of Gods says the Tholians are the aggressors. End of discussion. Why are we even talking about this in a thread devoted to something else?
Well, I've given you more than enough proof, and even offered a host of citations when you asked for them. Your call what to do with it.
(Back to in-character / RP stuff...)
The Tholians were on Nukara and fighting the Federation and Klingon Empire, before New Romulus was settled. They had begun an active conflict in the Beta/Alpha Quadrant before the Tal Shiar / Elachi raid on Virinat, and before the encounter with the Tholians on Dewa III. That is why we were authorized to engage them. Although most of that initial exploration team is no longer part of my crew, I stand by their actions that day.
And until peace with the Tholians is achieved, I will continue to engage them on-sight, as are my standing orders.
But, as is common, many Romulans are still being deceived - some willingly and joyfully so - by the RSE's propaganda. And when presented with facts, the RSE will do anything to discredit those facts - in this case, ignoring them entirely, as if they didn't exist.
You linked a wiki page. In ten seconds I can make it say that the Tholians are motivated solely by their love of cute puppies.
If you investigate the order of episodes for Romulan players, you will find that the investigation of Dewa III predates all other conflicts with the Tholians. Even the Tholian Red Alert missions in the Tau Dewa block are impossible to take before you've killed the Tholian archaeologists.
There is, in fact, no evidence of an ongoing conflict with the Tholians before The Search for New Romulus.
I'm actually using that name for it in my current Foundry mission. (I stuck in a console with some news stories, including one dealing with Republic Senate proceedings.)
And you'd be promptly reverted and likely get a temp ban for vandalism.
The storyline there fits with the canon portrayal of the Tholians. Their schtick is being mysterious guys who do their own thing without caring overmuch what anyone else thinks of their presence or behavior. Sometimes they're willing to talk (they took a non-aggression pact with the Dominion in DS9, and in Nemesis Tal'aura had an appointment with the Tholian ambassador to the Star Empire that conveniently got her out of the room before her thalaron bomb went off, and nobody apparently thought it unusual), but other times they attack without apparent provocation (the kidnapping of the USS Defiant NCC-1764). This is one of the latter cases.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
(In-character)
And thus is the Imperial propaganda, or in this case the straight denial of facts.
If the RSE feels that the Republic has somehow wronged the Tholian Assembly, then the RSE leadership (whoever it is right now...) can take it up with the Tholians themselves and offer condolences. The Republic, however, will keep maintaining the security of the Beta/Alpha Quadrants in the meantime. The Tholians are, at this moment, a valid threat to our part of the galaxy.
If the RSE wishes to ignore that threat, and as a result make themselves an easy target - for both the Tholians and their allies in the cosmozoan species known only as the Crystaline Entities - then I simply fear for the millions of Romulan lives that will be lost as a result of inept leadership.
Clearly "all hail Sela" and "long live the Empire" are mantras that no longer guarantee the protection of innocent Romulan - and Reman - lives.
I request clarification. When have they ever?
Nothing is a guarantee.
Tal'Shiar/Reman Resistance/Romulan Nemesis uniform, pls.
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7403/13262502435_5604548f2c_o.png
Seriously, during the argument between Taris and Sela I imagined my character setting their weapon to stun and waiting for the first excuse to use it. Then seeing what came next...
Though at the same time it was Taris who not only set certain events into motion but actually made things worse every time she tried to fix things. So I can't exactly blame Sela for her action either. Taris was paving her own personal highway to hell with her "good intentions", and she was taking the galaxy with her.
Still though, I think if given the chance Taris would have agreed to (temporarily) join forces with the Republic. If nothing else what influence she had left could have been a valuable asset for the upcoming war.
I'm reserving judgement for whatever it is that Sela ultimately ends up doing.
You need to read up on the Romulan concept of Mnhei'sahe. (Ruling-passion)
Her redemption would be at the end of a fellow romulan strangling the life out of her.
Oh snap
About the border-question I guess that is tricky (it is hard to draw lines in the "sand" if the sand is stretching in three dimensions, so to speak). When I traveled around I had the impression that much more than just one sector belong to the RSE (which means you could see the RSE-logo on the map). But that may change from time to time...so I am not sure. However I would say it would be very strange if the capture of such a important world like Rator is never mentioned in play etc.
In-char
Tolmarius (and sorry that I not answered quicker)
Your last question first: Rator III was started to be call by many as New Romulus long before D'Tan found his little hell erm shining city upon a hill (according to the path to 2409). Because this was the first New Romulus, it is only logical (and the Vulcan-loving Republicans should understand logic *g*) to call the Republican main world SECOND New Romulus.
About the "true Romulan" question, well we all have the right to define what we see as true and right - and your Republican buddies do that all the day. I define what true Romulans are out of the rich and long Romulan history and tradition, and that is the history and tradition of the RSE (and its forces). People who did not honour that are in my eyes not true Romulans (but of course could be teached to become so by the time).
About negotiations with Sela...well the Republic was willing to deal and become friends with Klingons (warcriminals which murdered thousands of Romulans), Reman terrorists (dito) and Federation (need I say more?). The only people they seem unwilling to forgive what they ignore so often while bowing towards old enemies are the people of their own nation. That IS strange...
A monument for Spock because his so called sacrifice. Well, than why not a monument for every damned captain and crewmember who dies while trying to do mor or less the same while they tried to evacuate people from Romulus? Is their sacrifice less important since they are not the beloved teachers of king D'Tan the miserable? It seems so...
And I want to add that it is strange that Spock was ready to "help" with the right tools and the right ship (or thought to be so) in a catastrophe nobody had seen coming. Perhaps he, too knows much more about this danger and avoided to warn the Empire - as other Vulcans did (which lead to diplomatic protest after it became obvious)
And you should leran to decide between signs of friendship and those of slavery. Honouring Spock in this strange way is much more the second than the first.
For sure, it's not clear. But it makes sense that the borders aren't clear, as specific planets within Romulan space are choosing their allegiance. As such, the Republic has planets in every Romulan sector block, and so does the RSE. It'll be interesting to see if those change over time.
(Replies in-char from here)
A single city does not make a 'new Romulus' - it's an attempt at a new Ki'Baratan if anything. Our new homeworld is New Romulus, in the proper sense.
(quick out-of-char: yeah well, you're no true Scotsman either :P I kid, of course)
When Sela / the RSE stop committing violent acts against other Romulans - the very people she claims as her own - as well as the other major powers, then there might be an avenue for discussion.
But, let's go back to Khitomer in early 2409. The Federation, the Klingon Empire, the Republic, and the RSE were all in attendance to discuss peace - and Sela has her forces attempt to blow up the conference.
Shortly after, she invited Federation reps to Agrama for peace talks - and tried to detain them all, while sending a fleet to destroy Vulcan.
This is not someone who has has expressed a willingness to negotiate.
(and final note: I won't comment on the Spock monument. I feel a little funny debating that point - still probably too soon, but fair points in RP either way)
You're obviously either not terribly familiar with the "Path to 2409," or are once more engaging in selective reading. The "Path to 2409" says:
"On Stardate 64333.4, a Romulan Mining Guild ship observes the start of a chain of events that will forever change the Alpha and Beta Quadrants. The star in the Hobus system, in the far reaches of Romulan space, begins to exhibit massive fluxuations of radiation. Days later, Ambassador Spock of the Federation appears before the Romulan Senate to warn them about the dangers of this star.
"Spock believes that if the Hobus star goes supernova, it could create a reaction that would threaten much of the Romulan Empire, and he asks the Senate to coordinate with Vulcan to find a solution. After a lengthy debate, the Senate rejects Spock's plan."