The point isn't how much damage he does, as i outlined, it's that Earth is a couple minutes away from being assimilated and a starfleet officers first duty is always to the defense of Earth. Even a small amount of damage, or a lucky hit to a critical system or even a system like transporters, could be enouigh to give the few remaining ships an edge or atleast delay transport of drones to the surface of the Earth. The defiant didnt move because by the time of the "hero shot" the helmsman knew the E was coming and likely halted propulsion, but even without that they could have activated the warp drive for a relativistic ram as mentioned.
Again, the audience doesn't realize how desperate things were because we follow the POV of the Enterprise, but from Worf's POV and that of the rest of starfleet, all is about to be lost forever within minutes. It's spelled out throughout all of the Series that all starfleet officers are willing to die to accomplish their mission and protect the federation. Half of the later seasons of TNG involved Picard setting a self-destruct or getting the ship into overwhelming odds but holding his ground, risking the lives of all the families on board, in the hope that the enemy would stand down.
Firstly the boldened point. The Defiant was moving... it was drifting under its own innertia, not in a controlled manner. And as before, main power was offline. Riker then confirmed that the Defiant was 'adrift, but salvageable'. Even ignoring for a moment my opinion that the order to ram was a foolhardy one, I simply refuse to accept that the ship was capable of carrying out such a maneauvre, because it was too severely damaged, and was simply drifting... With regards the situation itself, the Defiant was not the only ship between the cube and Earth. There was a fleet attacking (albeit somewhat ineffectually) Without Picard's involvement, nothing was going to stop the cube. Given the size of the Defiant, its collision would have had little if any impact on the cube, and as above, I believe the more sensible order (as could be heard over the livefeed) was to abandon ship
His reaction at first contact is something even a human would likely do, because he knows they're on the *brink* of losing everything and his ship just lost weapons, a feeling of hopelessness and heplessness would set in for many, but as an officer he tries to find another way to do some, any, damage to a ruthless enemy minutes away from assimilating billions.
I disagree. As mentioned, Worf is given a report on the Defiant's status: Main power offline, shields and weapons are gone. He then orders they prepare for ramming speed. As before, without main power, with the ship drifting, how is it suddenly going to be capable of making a charge at the cube? As mentioned above, the helmsman then gives him the update that the Enterprise is coming in. He never acknowledged receipt of intent to comply with the order to ram. He should have said:
"Aye, Sir, collision course plotted... Sir, there's another starship coming in... It's the Enterprise!"
I suggest that firstly, he had no intent of carrying out Worf's order, and secondly, the ship was not capable of moving even if the helmsman had complied with the order...
As an experienced tactical officer, he also knows the likelyhood of a civilian freighter, with a cloaking device, deciding to fly into the middle of a warzone in deepspace, and then fly infront of a ship in the middle of a battle and decloak is zero percent. It happened only because it was a setup.
Absolutely so, but that does not mean that he was not still obliged to have waited to confirm his target before giving the order to fire, a procedural fact backed up by O'Brien's testimony, and the lecture Sisko then issued at the end. I completely accept that Worf was being set up, but the fact remains that he made a procedural error and fell into the trap set for him. He only got away with it because the ruse was uncovered (and plot armor)
Not quite, they are more comparable than you think. They weren't targetting Chang's ship, they were merely targetting the plasma that all ships emit even while cloaked, if there were a cloaked freighter or transport there (and being that they were at khitomer where a conference was being held, it's slightly more likely than in worf's situation) the torpedo would be just as likely to hit it. But they knew the odds were low and they knew their enemy was there, cloaked, just as worf did. They took advantage of that vulnerability, as worf did, without waiting for a full decloak (or in kirk's case, it never decloaked at all).
Which they had determined to be being emitted by the attacking ship... The fact they were at Khitomer would suggest that any cloaked ship(s) were present for hostile purposes. The dictates of the plot are different, so that makes them less comparable in terms of creating probabilities. I would make this observation: Kirk was taking a (educated) shot in the dark. Worf fired blind on an instinct (which as I mentioned upthread, comes under the same disciplinary issue as 'anticipating an order') Had Sisko not specifically told Worf to verify his targets in future, I might have been prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt (but even that would just be plot armor because he did do what he was accused of, he just got away with it) but because Sisko did tell him that, and because O'Brien, an acknowledged combat veteran also said that he would not have given the order to fire, it's clear that Worf went against procedure...
And if several billion people are going to die if you don't take out the cube now and you're going to die when they go through the wrecks for survivors anyway, isn't it worth trying? Call it a 5% chance of winning if you ram the cube. That's still better than a near-100% chance that if you don't ram it, Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies.
Still low odds, the Defiant was combat ineffective by the time Enterprise has arrived, ramming would not have made a difference either way, yes you may slow the borg down but in the end that cube will still carry out it's mission.
The battle of Sector 001 was a costly wake up call to Starfleet and that lesson would bear fruit in the Dominion war.
Which brings me to a evac mission where Worf and Dax were assigned to bring out a cardassian defector, Worf abandoned the mission to look after Dax after she was wounded and the defector was never recovered.
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
Still low odds, the Defiant was combat ineffective by the time Enterprise has arrived, ramming would not have made a difference either way, yes you may slow the borg down but in the end that cube will still carry out it's mission.
You're missing the point. If you've got a 1% chance of winning if you act, but a 100% chance of everybody dying if you don't, the logical response is to take the 1% chance. Sometimes long shots hit their target, but not shooting at all guarantees that you won't hit.
The battle of Sector 001 was a costly wake up call to Starfleet and that lesson would bear fruit in the Dominion war.
Actually, the wake-up call was Wolf 359. Starfleet performed considerably better at Sector 001 than the first time they tangled with the Borg. The cube was already on the point of total shield failure when the Enterprise arrived and at least a dozen ships had managed to maintain contact for the several hours, minimum, that it would've taken Picard to get to Earth from the Neutral Zone going flat-out (the Enterprise probably burned through half her warp core's operational lifespan in just that one sortie). And that was with the fleet flagship being taken out in the opening salvos. I'd readily wager that the fleet would've won without Picard except that they ran out of room between them and the cube's target.
Classic demonstration of how you really beat the Borg. TRIBBLE trying to technobabble your way out, just overwhelm them with sheer weight of coordinated firepower (which, incidentally, was the entire point of the Defiant-class: making a cheap, disposable corvette with enormous guns that could swarm and overwhelm a cube).
Which brings me to a evac mission where Worf and Dax were assigned to bring out a cardassian defector, Worf abandoned the mission to look after Dax after she was wounded and the defector was never recovered.
Which just goes to show why fraternization regulations are a thing, and why you don't put staff officers (e.g. psychologists, shipyard engineers, scientists) on combat missions (or let them command outside their specialty, for that matter, which is why giving Ezri Dax a ship in the novelverse is bullsh*t). I'm not arguing that he made the wrong choice but Worf was forced into that predicament by a pretty damn serious mission-planning f*ckup. He didn't deserve the black mark he got.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Tbh i always liked worf he is my Favorite TNG/DS9 Charatcer besides Q of course worf was always awesome and i hoped they would do a series with him so we could learn more about him and the klingon culture one can dream i suppose
You're missing the point. If you've got a 1% chance of winning if you act, but a 100% chance of everybody dying if you don't, the logical response is to take the 1% chance. Sometimes long shots hit their target, but not shooting at all guarantees that you won't hit.
Actually, the wake-up call was Wolf 359. Starfleet performed considerably better at Sector 001 than the first time they tangled with the Borg. The cube was already on the point of total shield failure when the Enterprise arrived and at least a dozen ships had managed to maintain contact for the several hours, minimum, that it would've taken Picard to get to Earth from the Neutral Zone going flat-out (the Enterprise probably burned through half her warp core's operational lifespan in just that one sortie). And that was with the fleet flagship being taken out in the opening salvos. I'd readily wager that the fleet would've won without Picard except that they ran out of room between them and the cube's target.
Classic demonstration of how you really beat the Borg. TRIBBLE trying to technobabble your way out, just overwhelm them with sheer weight of coordinated firepower (which, incidentally, was the entire point of the Defiant-class: making a cheap, disposable corvette with enormous guns that could swarm and overwhelm a cube).
Which just goes to show why fraternization regulations are a thing, and why you don't put staff officers (e.g. psychologists, shipyard engineers, scientists) on combat missions (or let them command outside their specialty, for that matter, which is why giving Ezri Dax a ship in the novelverse is bullsh*t). I'm not arguing that he made the wrong choice but Worf was forced into that predicament by a pretty damn serious mission-planning f*ckup. He didn't deserve the black mark he got.
The best method of taking down a cube is to swarm it in well co-ordinated strikes, something Starfleet got wrong on both accounts at Wolf 359 and Sector 001, their tactics at both battles were not very efficient and costly in ships and personnel, after Wolf 359 Starfleet tactical and command training was improved yes but their tactics were still flawed.
Sector 001 was a pyrrhic victory at best, the amount of ships and personnel lost at Sector 001 would be felt in the early stages of the Dominion war
The Cardassian defector incident, part of the blame must go to Sisko, he should have known better than to send a married couple on a highly important mission.
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
Comments
I disagree. As mentioned, Worf is given a report on the Defiant's status: Main power offline, shields and weapons are gone. He then orders they prepare for ramming speed. As before, without main power, with the ship drifting, how is it suddenly going to be capable of making a charge at the cube? As mentioned above, the helmsman then gives him the update that the Enterprise is coming in. He never acknowledged receipt of intent to comply with the order to ram. He should have said:
"Aye, Sir, collision course plotted... Sir, there's another starship coming in... It's the Enterprise!"
I suggest that firstly, he had no intent of carrying out Worf's order, and secondly, the ship was not capable of moving even if the helmsman had complied with the order...
Absolutely so, but that does not mean that he was not still obliged to have waited to confirm his target before giving the order to fire, a procedural fact backed up by O'Brien's testimony, and the lecture Sisko then issued at the end. I completely accept that Worf was being set up, but the fact remains that he made a procedural error and fell into the trap set for him. He only got away with it because the ruse was uncovered (and plot armor)
Which they had determined to be being emitted by the attacking ship... The fact they were at Khitomer would suggest that any cloaked ship(s) were present for hostile purposes. The dictates of the plot are different, so that makes them less comparable in terms of creating probabilities. I would make this observation: Kirk was taking a (educated) shot in the dark. Worf fired blind on an instinct (which as I mentioned upthread, comes under the same disciplinary issue as 'anticipating an order') Had Sisko not specifically told Worf to verify his targets in future, I might have been prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt (but even that would just be plot armor because he did do what he was accused of, he just got away with it) but because Sisko did tell him that, and because O'Brien, an acknowledged combat veteran also said that he would not have given the order to fire, it's clear that Worf went against procedure...
Still low odds, the Defiant was combat ineffective by the time Enterprise has arrived, ramming would not have made a difference either way, yes you may slow the borg down but in the end that cube will still carry out it's mission.
The battle of Sector 001 was a costly wake up call to Starfleet and that lesson would bear fruit in the Dominion war.
Which brings me to a evac mission where Worf and Dax were assigned to bring out a cardassian defector, Worf abandoned the mission to look after Dax after she was wounded and the defector was never recovered.
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
Actually, the wake-up call was Wolf 359. Starfleet performed considerably better at Sector 001 than the first time they tangled with the Borg. The cube was already on the point of total shield failure when the Enterprise arrived and at least a dozen ships had managed to maintain contact for the several hours, minimum, that it would've taken Picard to get to Earth from the Neutral Zone going flat-out (the Enterprise probably burned through half her warp core's operational lifespan in just that one sortie). And that was with the fleet flagship being taken out in the opening salvos. I'd readily wager that the fleet would've won without Picard except that they ran out of room between them and the cube's target.
Classic demonstration of how you really beat the Borg. TRIBBLE trying to technobabble your way out, just overwhelm them with sheer weight of coordinated firepower (which, incidentally, was the entire point of the Defiant-class: making a cheap, disposable corvette with enormous guns that could swarm and overwhelm a cube).
Which just goes to show why fraternization regulations are a thing, and why you don't put staff officers (e.g. psychologists, shipyard engineers, scientists) on combat missions (or let them command outside their specialty, for that matter, which is why giving Ezri Dax a ship in the novelverse is bullsh*t). I'm not arguing that he made the wrong choice but Worf was forced into that predicament by a pretty damn serious mission-planning f*ckup. He didn't deserve the black mark he got.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
The best method of taking down a cube is to swarm it in well co-ordinated strikes, something Starfleet got wrong on both accounts at Wolf 359 and Sector 001, their tactics at both battles were not very efficient and costly in ships and personnel, after Wolf 359 Starfleet tactical and command training was improved yes but their tactics were still flawed.
Sector 001 was a pyrrhic victory at best, the amount of ships and personnel lost at Sector 001 would be felt in the early stages of the Dominion war
The Cardassian defector incident, part of the blame must go to Sisko, he should have known better than to send a married couple on a highly important mission.
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
Fed/Vulcan: T'jar Voltek Fleet: Section 31
Fed/Andorian: Lissan Ek'Noor sh'Aqabaa Fleet: Section 31
KDF/Cardi: K'Im Qah da Sian Fleet: Klingon Intelligence
KDF/Reman: R'Chras Jonzor Fleet: Klingon Intelligence