I dunno about not handling responsibility, he was definitely trustworthy and relentlessly dedicated. He certainly had MAJOR problems as a commander, officer, and parent when emotional entanglements showed up.
As to the second...the Defiant's going down anyway, the Cube's going for Earth, the best move is to hit them with anything you have left, up to and including the ship. I call that Worf being sensible; like the people on Flight 93, knowing that they were going to die anyway, trying to save some people on the outside with a desperate attack.
The fact he had issues as a commander and a parent, showed he didn't handle responsibility. That he was trustworthy and dedicated, showed he was a good officer...
Have got to disagree there, I suspect it would have been a futile gesture, and as mentioned, Worf forcing his cultural opinion over that of everyone else on board. Someone was even being stretchered off the bridge, so the medics were clearly still trying to save lives. The guy at the helm was right to ignore the order... At least when Chakotay rammed the Kazon he got his crew off first and had himself beamed out at the last second, that's how a Pimp rams a ship
The fact he had issues as a commander and a parent, showed he didn't handle responsibility. That he was trustworthy and dedicated, showed he was a good officer...
Have got to disagree there, I suspect it would have been a futile gesture, and as mentioned, Worf forcing his cultural opinion over that of everyone else on board. Someone was even being stretchered off the bridge, so the medics were clearly still trying to save lives. The guy at the helm was right to ignore the order... At least when Chakotay rammed the Kazon he got his crew off first and had himself beamed out at the last second, that's how a Pimp rams a ship
I'm going to say that in the Kazon situation, they were clearly vastly inferior and the ramming move basically assured victory.
Ramming in Worf's situation was "we're being obliterated, let's take at least a few of these TRIBBLE with us". Any attempt to drop shields and beam people off would be suicide against a cube; the rescuing ship would be instantly targeted and destroyed by the Collective entity.
Worf can either ram the Borg and take at least a few thousand drones, maybe even the entire cube if he gets lucky, with his ship, or keep shooting (inflicting little damage) and get obliterated by the next FAW volley. As far as he knows, the command structure is gone and nobody's coming to help. He's SCREWED either way, so might as well take a few Borg with him. And again, kinetic strikes are beyond OP in Trek.
I'm going to say that in the Kazon situation, they were clearly vastly inferior and the ramming move basically assured victory.
Ramming in Worf's situation was "we're being obliterated, let's take at least a few of these TRIBBLE with us". Any attempt to drop shields and beam people off would be suicide against a cube; the rescuing ship would be instantly targeted and destroyed by the Collective entity.
Worf can either ram the Borg and take at least a few thousand drones, maybe even the entire cube if he gets lucky, with his ship, or keep shooting (inflicting little damage) and get obliterated by the next FAW volley. As far as he knows, the command structure is gone and nobody's coming to help. He's SCREWED either way, so might as well take a few Borg with him. And again, kinetic strikes are beyond OP in Trek.
I still think that he made the right move.
You're trying to justify the order on a random guess at what damage the impact might have achieved... It's as likely to have achieved very little, given the sizes and velocities of the ships involved... As commander, his obligation was to ensure the safety of his crew. Once he was told the condition they were in, his options were either remain adrift and hope they weren't destroyed (which would be unlikely, as once the Defiant ceased to be a threat, the Borg would have ignored it in favor of focussing on the ships which were actively attacking, proven when the Enterprise completely drew the fire away from the Defiant) or, ordered the crew to abandon ship, as Sisko did the first time they took the Defiant against the Dominion, and possibly also during the Battle of Chin'toka (but I can't remember that one for sure...) He was a Starfleet officer, in command of a Starfleet crew, who had no obligation to follow a pointlessly suicidal order... And again, his actions against the Klingon ship showed that in the heat of battle, his judgement became clouded and his order could be incorrect... As before, he wasn't a bad officer, he just wasn't suitable to command, which Sisko came to realize, despite having previously suggested that Worf would oneday have a crew to command. Sisko stopped giving him the benefit of the doubt, and saw his career had reached its pinnacle...
You're trying to justify the order on a random guess at what damage the impact might have achieved... It's as likely to have achieved very little, given the sizes and velocities of the ships involved... As commander, his obligation was to ensure the safety of his crew. Once he was told the condition they were in, his options were either remain adrift and hope they weren't destroyed (which would be unlikely, as once the Defiant ceased to be a threat, the Borg would have ignored it in favor of focussing on the ships which were actively attacking, proven when the Enterprise completely drew the fire away from the Defiant) or, ordered the crew to abandon ship, as Sisko did the first time they took the Defiant against the Dominion, and possibly also during the Battle of Chin'toka (but I can't remember that one for sure...) He was a Starfleet officer, in command of a Starfleet crew, who had no obligation to follow a pointlessly suicidal order... And again, his actions against the Klingon ship showed that in the heat of battle, his judgement became clouded and his order could be incorrect... As before, he wasn't a bad officer, he just wasn't suitable to command, which Sisko came to realize, despite having previously suggested that Worf would oneday have a crew to command. Sisko stopped giving him the benefit of the doubt, and saw his career had reached its pinnacle...
I'm looking at what kinetics do in Trek, and assuming based on the acceleration we see on-screen. Look how much damage the Ent-E did to the super-advanced Scimitar that was kicking everyone's butts; the Defiant's at similar range, worst-case scenario they rip a giant hole in the Borg ship and cause a massive antimatter explosion that could quite possibly take out the Borg's core.
I have to disagree. This is not a "wait and let someone pick us up later" situation. This is "the Borg are going to destroy Earth, if we don't take this cube down NOW there very well might not be a Federation Starfleet to pick us up afterwards" situation.
Which is why it's bad to have a capital planet in Trek...
Anyway. Worf in TNG-DS9 was an excellent security officer and IMHO very much the Klingon warrior ideal (something that most Klingons failed to live up to). He was not a good commanding officer (though I do defend his actions in First Contact), but he was an excellent and effective security officer and soldier.
STO Worf is intelligent, calm, competent, a solid CO, and (in my stories at least) keeps Three in line, so there's got to have been some character development in there.
I'm looking at what kinetics do in Trek, and assuming based on the acceleration we see on-screen. Look how much damage the Ent-E did to the super-advanced Scimitar that was kicking everyone's butts; the Defiant's at similar range, worst-case scenario they rip a giant hole in the Borg ship and cause a massive antimatter explosion that could quite possibly take out the Borg's core.
I have to disagree. This is not a "wait and let someone pick us up later" situation. This is "the Borg are going to destroy Earth, if we don't take this cube down NOW there very well might not be a Federation Starfleet to pick us up afterwards" situation.
Which is why it's bad to have a capital planet in Trek...
Anyway. Worf in TNG-DS9 was an excellent security officer and IMHO very much the Klingon warrior ideal (something that most Klingons failed to live up to). He was not a good commanding officer (though I do defend his actions in First Contact), but he was an excellent and effective security officer and soldier.
STO Worf is intelligent, calm, competent, a solid CO, and (in my stories at least) keeps Three in line, so there's got to have been some character development in there.
I do see the point you're making, I just don't think the Defiant had the mass to actually cause that much damage (and let's not forget, Borg vessels were always describes as being massively destabilised. The same for his order to ram. The helmsman clearly had no intention of following the order, and I'd bet that if it got to a court-martial for refusal to obey a superior officer, the questionable nature of the order would be a valid defence, as Worf was clearly caught in the heat of the moment, as per when the Klingons almost succeeded in getting him extradited... And as before, yes, an excellent security officer, but certainly no commander...
Also, you can't use your own writing as a basis for judgement because it's an inherently biassed perspective...
Let's be honest, the only reason the Defiant was at Earth was so that they could get Worf onto the Ent-D and kick Lt. Nobody out of the tac-officer's seat...and because the Borg waited until The Sisko was off in the Badlands with Eddington.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
I do see the point you're making, I just don't think the Defiant had the mass to actually cause that much damage (and let's not forget, Borg vessels were always describes as being massively destabilised. The same for his order to ram. The helmsman clearly had no intention of following the order, and I'd bet that if it got to a court-martial for refusal to obey a superior officer, the questionable nature of the order would be a valid defence, as Worf was clearly caught in the heat of the moment, as per when the Klingons almost succeeded in getting him extradited... And as before, yes, an excellent security officer, but certainly no commander...
Also, you can't use your own writing as a basis for judgement because it's an inherently biassed perspective...
You have a point, I just...well, I see that scene differently, especially given that we don't know how much the UFP knows about Borg cubes or the exact capabilities of the Defiant (although it WAS designed specifically to fight Borg).
And true, but let's face it, I think that the mark of a true Badass is keeping that freak in line...for example, in the big story that I'm reworking now, there's this bit:
TShanats console chimed; she checked it and grinned viciously. Trenek! Weve got a Klingon fleet under Dahar Master Dgan seven minutes out, theyre pushing maximum warp. Four MatHa-class raptors and a bird-of-prey squadron!
We will hold out until they arrive.
Dont you Vulcans ever get scared?
I monitored a psychopathic living terror weapon for the better part of a year and a half, up to and including watching her disembowel a Hirogen while singing White Christmas. This situation is no longer enough to frighten me.
For reference, they're fighting a Fek'Ihri battle fleet that outnumbers them twenty to one, Trenek's ship has been boarded by Fek, and Rachel Connor (their best weapon against Fek on the ground) is in sickbay regrowing three limbs.
If you don't have balls of titanium when you first meet Three, you will by the time you get away. Ael managed the ultimate feat of badassery; she got the monster to apologize to her. :cool:
Anyway, my personal story universe aside...
Based on Sphere of Influence and the Klingon story arc, STO's Worf has grown, matured, and become a lot more wordly. He's also had his Klingon idealism beaten out of him. He even called his son out on a genuine bit of stupid, and their relationship is shown to have improved a lot despite the, ah, strain of Torg pulling his sh*t on Alexander and the House of Martok.
I do see the point you're making, I just don't think the Defiant had the mass to actually cause that much damage (and let's not forget, Borg vessels were always describes as being massively destabilised. The same for his order to ram. The helmsman clearly had no intention of following the order, and I'd bet that if it got to a court-martial for refusal to obey a superior officer, the questionable nature of the order would be a valid defence, as Worf was clearly caught in the heat of the moment, as per when the Klingons almost succeeded in getting him extradited... And as before, yes, an excellent security officer, but certainly no commander...
Also, you can't use your own writing as a basis for judgement because it's an inherently biassed perspective...
The only reason the Klingons almost succeeded in getting him extradited is because either the presiding admiral was bloody incompetent, or she was being pressured from above by corrupt officials in the command structure that wanted the Klingons back onside and were willing to throw one of their own under the bus to achieve it. It's established in the first five minutes that Worf destroying the transport fell under justifiable homicide* because let's face it: even if there had been civilians on board the captain had intentionally flown into an active war zone. What the f*ck would you expect to happen? Do you think all the pretty lights are a harmless fireworks display or something? :rolleyes:
Worf was not acting as a Klingon, he was acting as a Starfleet officer, ergo the Klingons did not have jurisdiction. Only Starfleet's military justice system did. Letting Klingon law decide whether he can be extradited to the Klingons during active hostilities against the Klingons is a patently ludicrous conflict of interest. It is, in a word, illogical, Ms. Vulcan Admiral. So either she's an idiot or she's bending to political pressure, and either way she's not fit to be a JAG.
And why the hell does a civilian transport ship have a cloaking device in the first place? That entire episode was just badly thought-out from square one.
*May be misusing the term; the point is, Worf had already been cleared of wrongdoing under Starfleet's rules.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
You have a point, I just...well, I see that scene differently, especially given that we don't know how much the UFP knows about Borg cubes or the exact capabilities of the Defiant (although it WAS designed specifically to fight Borg).
It's a grey area for sure, I just don't consider it a worthwhile tactic under the circumstances...
Based on Sphere of Influence and the Klingon story arc, STO's Worf has grown, matured, and become a lot more wordly. He's also had his Klingon idealism beaten out of him. He even called his son out on a genuine bit of stupid, and their relationship is shown to have improved a lot despite the, ah, strain of Torg pulling his sh*t on Alexander and the House of Martok.
He's more than fit to be a Captain now, IMHO.
I agree, he's definitely grown and fit to be a captain now, but he definitely wasn't during his time on DS-9
The only reason the Klingons almost succeeded in getting him extradited is because either the presiding admiral was bloody incompetent, or she was being pressured from above by corrupt officials in the command structure that wanted the Klingons back onside and were willing to throw one of their own under the bus to achieve it. It's established in the first five minutes that Worf destroying the transport fell under justifiable homicide* because let's face it: even if there had been civilians on board the captain had intentionally flown into an active war zone. What the f*ck would you expect to happen? Do you think all the pretty lights are a harmless fireworks display or something? :rolleyes:
Worf was not acting as a Klingon, he was acting as a Starfleet officer, ergo the Klingons did not have jurisdiction. Only Starfleet's military justice system did. Letting Klingon law decide whether he can be extradited to the Klingons during active hostilities against the Klingons is a patently ludicrous conflict of interest. It is, in a word, illogical, Ms. Vulcan Admiral. So either she's an idiot or she's bending to political pressure, and either way she's not fit to be a JAG.
And why the hell does a civilian transport ship have a cloaking device in the first place? That entire episode was just badly thought-out from square one.
*May be misusing the term; the point is, Worf had already been cleared of wrongdoing under Starfleet's rules.
There was nothing justifiable about it at all, he fired, if not indiscriminately, certainly prematurely, without verifying his target. O'Brien admitted that he would not have given the order to fire, and Sisko specifically told him to 'be damned sure of his target' next time, so demonstratably, he was not acting as a trained Starfleet officer should, but pumped up by the situation and got carried away. Personally, I'd say having a cloaking device on a transport ship would be a pretty good idea if it was going to be passing through an actively hostile region... I'm not denying that the Klingons set Worf up a treat, they absolutely did, but he was stupid enough to take the bait, and his judgement was compromised (as it possibly was in First Contact, and as it definitely was when he let the Intelligence asset die...)
There was nothing justifiable about it at all, he fired, if not indiscriminately, certainly prematurely, without verifying his target. O'Brien admitted that he would not have given the order to fire, and Sisko specifically told him to 'be damned sure of his target' next time, so demonstratably, he was not acting as a trained Starfleet officer should, but pumped up by the situation and got carried away. Personally, I'd say having a cloaking device on a transport ship would be a pretty good idea if it was going to be passing through an actively hostile region... I'm not denying that the Klingons set Worf up a treat, they absolutely did, but he was stupid enough to take the bait, and his judgement was compromised (as it possibly was in First Contact, and as it definitely was when he let the Intelligence asset die...)
He's fighting a bird-of-prey that's using its cloaking device to launch hit-and-run attacks. What the hell do you think is going to happen when he picks up a ship decloaking directly in front of him? I would've done the exact same damn thing, because if I'm right it means I catch the TRIBBLE with his shields down (and there was no evidence at all for why I shouldn't be right), and if I'm wrong it's the other captain's fault for flying into the middle of a dogfight. That's called being Too Dumb to Live. You really expect that you can wander out into rush hour traffic and not get run over, or perhaps more appropriately, not get machine-gunned if you run out into no-man's-land during the Battle of the Somme?
And as for O'Brien, as he himself said, he wasn't in command of the ship, and as an enlisted man would never be in command of the ship unless every single officer aboard was incapacitated, therefore posing the question to him has no bearing on what Worf should or should not have done.
And again, the entire episode had them trying Worf under Klingon law because the judge was a moron. Under Starfleet law, i.e. the only one that should have actually mattered, he was explicitly cleared of any wrongdoing in the first five minutes, regardless of what Sisko thought about it.
And no, a civilian vessel, as the transport was explicitly stated to be, has zero business owning a cloaking device. That's inherently going to be tightly restricted technology to prevent somebody less anal about the rules than the Federation, e.g. Nausicaan pirates or the Cardassians whom the Klingons are fighting at that very moment, from getting their hands on one. Unless the Klingons are as incompetent as that Vulcan, which I suppose is possible considering Quark and Rom managed to steal the cloaking device from the IKS Rotarran, i.e. General Martok's flagship. :rolleyes:
No argument regarding the intel asset, though. That was a clear-cut case for why fraternization rules are a must in any military service.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
When commanding a Defiant against a Borg Cube, your desperation order is for a strafing run, not ramming. Your mass is almost certainly insufficent to breach their hull, which is what you're going to need to do to make the warp core breach have any real effect. On the other hand, if you're strafing, there's always the outside chance you might damage their defenses, enabling the next ship's strafing run to actually do something.
Worf really didn't have what it took to command a Starfleet ship. If Michael Dorn ever gets his wish, I certainly hope the writers for his show give the character sufficient character development to explain why he's now captain of a ship.
When commanding a Defiant against a Borg Cube, your desperation order is for a strafing run, not ramming. Your mass is almost certainly insufficent to breach their hull, which is what you're going to need to do to make the warp core breach have any real effect. On the other hand, if you're strafing, there's always the outside chance you might damage their defenses, enabling the next ship's strafing run to actually do something.
Worf really didn't have what it took to command a Starfleet ship. If Michael Dorn ever gets his wish, I certainly hope the writers for his show give the character sufficient character development to explain why he's now captain of a ship.
The problem, though, is that the Defiant's basically dead in the water; the core's going critical, half the ship's systems are broken, and the Borg are still shooting at them.
In that situation you NEED to inflict as much damage as possible as quickly as possible because if you don't that cube is going to assimilate Earth.
I think that it was the right move; the Defiant is DESIGNED for effectively suicidal runs against the Borg, it's got the best chance of any ship there at inflicting serious damage, so what you do is build up some speed, empty the magazine at the cube, and ram it.
He's fighting a bird-of-prey that's using its cloaking device to launch hit-and-run attacks. What the hell do you think is going to happen when he picks up a ship decloaking directly in front of him? I would've done the exact same damn thing, because if I'm right it means I catch the TRIBBLE with his shields down (and there was no evidence at all for why I shouldn't be right), and if I'm wrong it's the other captain's fault for flying into the middle of a dogfight. That's called being Too Dumb to Live. You really expect that you can wander out into rush hour traffic and not get run over, or perhaps more appropriately, not get machine-gunned if you run out into no-man's-land during the Battle of the Somme?
Highlighted to point: I would expect Worf to fire, because his warped view of Klingon machismo demands nothing less... And if you'd fire without identifying your target, sorry, but that simply makes you just as incompetent. Now accidentally hitting something unintentionally whilst aiming at a legitimately identified target, then fair play, things can happen, but to fire without identifying a target, based on a pattern, is the exact reason why when a senior officer calls others to stand to attention, they draw out the last part of the word (be it 'shun' or 'hut') and why it is disciplinary to come to attention before the order is completed, because that, is considered as 'anticipating the order' (and the person may anticipate the wrong order)
And as for O'Brien, as he himself said, he wasn't in command of the ship, and as an enlisted man would never be in command of the ship unless every single officer aboard was incapacitated, therefore posing the question to him has no bearing on what Worf should or should not have done.
O'Brien was being specifically questioned as an acknowledged seasoned combat veteran who knew Starfleet's rules of engagement. I quite agree, he wasn't in command, and was unlikely to be, it was also very clear he didn't want to have to say something which would be damaging to the reputation of the man who delivered his first child. But, he still answered that he would not have given the order to fire without verifying his target, and Sisko then later chastised Worf, telling him to be sure of his target in the future. I know, Plot dictated that Worf would have to get off, but the truth was, that in that instance, he was situationally incompetent, giving a pre-emptive order to fire on an unidentified target, and it was only the revelation of the Klingon's plan, which actually saved him from a considerable time in the stockade...
And no, a civilian vessel, as the transport was explicitly stated to be, has zero business owning a cloaking device. That's inherently going to be tightly restricted technology to prevent somebody less anal about the rules than the Federation, e.g. Nausicaan pirates or the Cardassians whom the Klingons are fighting at that very moment, from getting their hands on one. Unless the Klingons are as incompetent as that Vulcan, which I suppose is possible considering Quark and Rom managed to steal the cloaking device from the IKS Rotarran, i.e. General Martok's flagship. :rolleyes:
Are cloaks actually restricted technology though? I'm aware that the Federation allowed itself to be hamstrung by the Treaty of Algeron, but within the Empire, are they truly military only devices, or are they simply available to anyone with enough darseks?
The problem, though, is that the Defiant's basically dead in the water; the core's going critical, half the ship's systems are broken, and the Borg are still shooting at them.
In that situation you NEED to inflict as much damage as possible as quickly as possible because if you don't that cube is going to assimilate Earth.
I think that it was the right move; the Defiant is DESIGNED for effectively suicidal runs against the Borg, it's got the best chance of any ship there at inflicting serious damage, so what you do is build up some speed, empty the magazine at the cube, and ram it.
Utterly hyperbolous conjecture... During the damage report, there was no mention given to any issues with the core whatsoever. Sure, main power was offline, but that doesn't mean the core was about to blow, and when Worf asked about the condition of the Defiant when he got to the bridge, Riker pointed out that it was 'adrift, but salvageable,' so clearly no danger of the core blowing...
The Defiant was not designed for suicide runs, quite the reverse, which is why it's equipped with a detachable last-ditch torpedo at the front of the ship... The helmsman reported that their 'weapons were gone', so 'emptying the magazine' would also be an impossibility. They were running on backup power, so the chance of even building the momentum to breach the hull is unlikely...
Also, lets not forget, the Defiant was not the only ship in the battle, it didn't all fall on their shoulders to bring down the cube to save Earth, because they were fighting as part of a fleet (And ineffectively, because the admiral's ship had been destroyed, meaning there was no coordinating orders until Picard arrived and assumed command of the fleet and told them where to fire) so gung ho Lone Wolf tactics like that are utterly unnecessary... I admit, "prepare for ramming speed!" is one of my favorite lines of the film, but that doesn't make it the right order, and the helmsman was right to ignore it, especially as his instroments were telling him what was actually going on with the battle outside of Worf's desire to gain a place in Sto'vo'kor
Utterly hyperbolous conjecture... During the damage report, there was no mention given to any issues with the core whatsoever. Sure, main power was offline, but that doesn't mean the core was about to blow, and when Worf asked about the condition of the Defiant when he got to the bridge, Riker pointed out that it was 'adrift, but salvageable,' so clearly no danger of the core blowing...
The Defiant was not designed for suicide runs, quite the reverse, which is why it's equipped with a detachable last-ditch torpedo at the front of the ship... The helmsman reported that their 'weapons were gone', so 'emptying the magazine' would also be an impossibility. They were running on backup power, so the chance of even building the momentum to breach the hull is unlikely...
Also, lets not forget, the Defiant was not the only ship in the battle, it didn't all fall on their shoulders to bring down the cube to save Earth, because they were fighting as part of a fleet (And ineffectively, because the admiral's ship had been destroyed, meaning there was no coordinating orders until Picard arrived and assumed command of the fleet and told them where to fire) so gung ho Lone Wolf tactics like that are utterly unnecessary... I admit, "prepare for ramming speed!" is one of my favorite lines of the film, but that doesn't make it the right order, and the helmsman was right to ignore it, especially as his instroments were telling him what was actually going on with the battle outside of Worf's desire to gain a place in Sto'vo'kor
The rest of the fleet was in tatters, and the heavy cruisers were gone; they were down to frigates and some heavy escorts (Steamrunner- and Akira-class, IIRC).
I really think that the best move was ramming speed. Without command or backup, the cube was decimating the fleet; with that level of threat poised to take Earth, suicide runs are (regrettably) an absolutely acceptable and indeed advantageous tactic. Plus, some damage HAD been inflicted; a ram into a damaged portion of the Borg ship's plating might just have breached it and sent the Defiant into the cube's core; if not, there would be a big hole in the Borg ship from the blast, all ready for some torpedo love from the other ships.
Think of it like the Jem'Hadar ramming the Odyssey; that dinky frigate, barely larger than a fighter, obliterated a GCS in one hit. Defiant against a Borg cube is harder, but still POSSIBLE. And in this, extinction-level situation, Jem'Hadar tactics are absolutely a viable option.
Still going to disagree on this.
As for the DS9 example; what sort of civilian runs under cloak into an active war zone where cloaking devices are being used by troops and DOESN'T expect to be blown out of the water the moment they decloak? That entire episode was poorly thought-out.
The rest of the fleet was in tatters, and the heavy cruisers were gone; they were down to frigates and some heavy escorts (Steamrunner- and Akira-class, IIRC).
Yes and no... Yes, the fleet was disorganized, because it had lost it's command ship, but it was still up to the task of destroying the cube, as it then did so when Picard took over and told them where to fire...
I really think that the best move was ramming speed. Without command or backup, the cube was decimating the fleet; with that level of threat poised to take Earth, suicide runs are (regrettably) an absolutely acceptable and indeed advantageous tactic. Plus, some damage HAD been inflicted; a ram into a damaged portion of the Borg ship's plating might just have breached it and sent the Defiant into the cube's core; if not, there would be a big hole in the Borg ship from the blast, all ready for some torpedo love from the other ships.
Think of it like the Jem'Hadar ramming the Odyssey; that dinky frigate, barely larger than a fighter, obliterated a GCS in one hit. Defiant against a Borg cube is harder, but still POSSIBLE. And in this, extinction-level situation, Jem'Hadar tactics are absolutely a viable option.
The Jem'Hadar destroyed the Odyssey by taking out a nacelle, which in the episode of TNG where they were caught in the time loop, was shown to be a critically damaging strike which would destroy the ship. A Borg cube, on the other hand, is a decentralized (according to Data's initial scans) structure. Different targets require different tactics. Given your love for the pew pew pew, I'm not surprized you consider it a valid order But as jonsills pointed out above, that doesn't make it the right order...
As for the DS9 example; what sort of civilian runs under cloak into an active war zone where cloaking devices are being used by troops and DOESN'T expect to be blown out of the water the moment they decloak? That entire episode was poorly thought-out.
The kind which is being used as a bait for someone stupid enough to take it... Let's be clear, they weren't looking to simply discredit Starfleet or some random commander, they were trying to get hold of Worf, son of Mogh, and he had enough enemies in the Empire that any one of them may have come up with the idea... As before, I actually think it makes sense for a freighter passing through a dangerous area to have a cloak for protection, but the freighter is a red-herring, because it was something they knew that if they streered Worf in the right direction with a battle, he would be unable to avoid shooting at it while under the Red Mist. The episode was well thought out, the issue was Worf getting off at the end when they uncovered the truth about the freighter, because TrekTendency is mostly to have the heros come out on top, rather than suffering the consequences...
Yes and no... Yes, the fleet was disorganized, because it had lost it's command ship, but it was still up to the task of destroying the cube, as it then did so when Picard took over and told them where to fire...
After the addition to the fleet of the undamaged newest advanced warship in the Federation captained by the guy who has technobabble insight into the Borg ship's weaknesses, and said ship (a) interposing itself between the adrift Defiant and the Borg ship's killing volley and (b) shooting the hell out of the Borg cube with the most advanced weapons in the Federation.
Without the Enterprise, they were screwed, in firepower as well as tactics.
The Jem'Hadar destroyed the Odyssey by taking out a nacelle, which in the episode of TNG where they were caught in the time loop, was shown to be a critically damaging strike which would destroy the ship. A Borg cube, on the other hand, is a decentralized (according to Data's initial scans) structure. Different targets require different tactics. Given your love for the pew pew pew, I'm not surprized you consider it a valid order But as jonsills pointed out above, that doesn't make it the right order...
Love of pew-pew? Maybe in-game, not IRL. Even in-game, I prefer tanking.
Anyway, the Borg Cube HAS taken some damage; Worf's got the last ship with serious firepower as Mirandas and Akiras are being swatted left and right. Not knowing that the Ent-E is coming, I'd definitely order (a) a volley with everything the ship still had aimed at a damaged section, and then (b) a ramming attack on the same section. With a big hole in the cube, the smaller ships could pull a Voyager and fly inside (where the weapons can't reach them) and just blow the whole mass apart, shifting aux power to shields and weapons et cetera.
The kind which is being used as a bait for someone stupid enough to take it... Let's be clear, they weren't looking to simply discredit Starfleet or some random commander, they were trying to get hold of Worf, son of Mogh, and he had enough enemies in the Empire that any one of them may have come up with the idea... As before, I actually think it makes sense for a freighter passing through a dangerous area to have a cloak for protection, but the freighter is a red-herring, because it was something they knew that if they streered Worf in the right direction with a battle, he would be unable to avoid shooting at it while under the Red Mist. The episode was well thought out, the issue was Worf getting off at the end when they uncovered the truth about the freighter, because TrekTendency is mostly to have the heros come out on top, rather than suffering the consequences...
It'd only convince a JAG with an IQ less than that of the average persimmon.
If you try a false-flag like that, SOMEBODY will say "hey, what the hell is a legitimate freighter doing with a cloak?", because that's extremely suspicious at best (and more likely a sign of a serious smuggler). Also, a freighter flying into an active war zone without an escort is astoundingly idiotic.
I'm still not buying that that was Worf's fault; it was a poorly thought-ought false flag supported by a moron JAG.
After the addition to the fleet of the undamaged newest advanced warship in the Federation captained by the guy who has technobabble insight into the Borg ship's weaknesses, and said ship (a) interposing itself between the adrift Defiant and the Borg ship's killing volley and (b) shooting the hell out of the Borg cube with the most advanced weapons in the Federation.
Without the Enterprise, they were screwed, in firepower as well as tactics.
Only because plot dictated that Picard show up and save the day... Realistically, one of the other captains would have taken over the fleet and been the coordinator, although of course, Picard's knowledge of the Borg was certainly superior than any other captain there...
Anyway, the Borg Cube HAS taken some damage; Worf's got the last ship with serious firepower as Mirandas and Akiras are being swatted left and right. Not knowing that the Ent-E is coming, I'd definitely order (a) a volley with everything the ship still had aimed at a damaged section, and then (b) a ramming attack on the same section. With a big hole in the cube, the smaller ships could pull a Voyager and fly inside (where the weapons can't reach them) and just blow the whole mass apart, shifting aux power to shields and weapons et cetera.
With what weapons? The helmsman clearly stated their weapons were gone... How much support the back up power could have provided is vague, and without hard statistics, somewhat depends on plot necessity, but given Riker noted that the Defiant was losing lifesupport, it's fair to guess that the backups were also failing, and the ship wasn't going anywhere under its own power... I doubt ramming was even a viable option...
It'd only convince a JAG with an IQ less than that of the average persimmon.
If you try a false-flag like that, SOMEBODY will say "hey, what the hell is a legitimate freighter doing with a cloak?", because that's extremely suspicious at best (and more likely a sign of a serious smuggler). Also, a freighter flying into an active war zone without an escort is astoundingly idiotic.
I'm still not buying that that was Worf's fault; it was a poorly thought-ought false flag supported by a moron JAG.
The freighter is a red herring, ignore the freighter...
Worf's error was in ordering weapons fire on an unidentified target. As mentioned above, I can understand why he would give such an order (and so did the Klingons when they prepared the trap for him) but that doesn't make it a legitimate order. Sure, they uncovered the ruse of the freighter and that got him off the hook, but arguably, he still should have been disciplined for his failure to identify his target... All Sisko did was give him a telling off, because that's what the writers wanted to do (afterall, why introduce a character to the series only to then remove him by sending him to prison) but arguably, given O'Brien's testimony and Sisko's reaction, he should've been facing action for the order he gave, not the result of the order being carried out...
Only because plot dictated that Picard show up and save the day... Realistically, one of the other captains would have taken over the fleet and been the coordinator, although of course, Picard's knowledge of the Borg was certainly superior than any other captain there...
Which is why they were screwed without Picard. Picard's knowledge was an ace in the hole (and frankly not bringing him in to start was a really dumb move).
With what weapons? The helmsman clearly stated their weapons were gone... How much support the back up power could have provided is vague, and without hard statistics, somewhat depends on plot necessity, but given Riker noted that the Defiant was losing lifesupport, it's fair to guess that the backups were also failing, and the ship wasn't going anywhere under its own power... I doubt ramming was even a viable option...
True, the engines may not have been working...but the Borg were still shooting at them until the Ent-E showed up in the way; I think that we should stop this debate until we can get hard data, since neither of us is going to be convinced without it.
The freighter is a red herring, ignore the freighter...
Worf's error was in ordering weapons fire on an unidentified target. As mentioned above, I can understand why he would give such an order (and so did the Klingons when they prepared the trap for him) but that doesn't make it a legitimate order. Sure, they uncovered the ruse of the freighter and that got him off the hook, but arguably, he still should have been disciplined for his failure to identify his target... All Sisko did was give him a telling off, because that's what the writers wanted to do (afterall, why introduce a character to the series only to then remove him by sending him to prison) but arguably, given O'Brien's testimony and Sisko's reaction, he should've been facing action for the order he gave, not the result of the order being carried out...
I dunno. It WAS a war zone, the Klingons were the only ones in the area using cloaks...if you see something decloaking, shooting it is pretty much always a good idea.
I....just didn't particularly like that episode. I felt that it was pretty choppy.
Are cloaks actually restricted technology though? I'm aware that the Federation allowed itself to be hamstrung by the Treaty of Algeron, but within the Empire, are they truly military only devices, or are they simply available to anyone with enough darseks?
From an interstellar law point of view? nope. Certain specific treaties prevent certain specific powers from using them, but it's not a tech that is banned as a general rule.... just scarce. Most powers that know how to make cloaks like to keep that knowledge to themselves.
Utterly hyperbolous conjecture... During the damage report, there was no mention given to any issues with the core whatsoever. Sure, main power was offline, but that doesn't mean the core was about to blow, and when Worf asked about the condition of the Defiant when he got to the bridge, Riker pointed out that it was 'adrift, but salvageable,' so clearly no danger of the core blowing...
The Defiant was not designed for suicide runs, quite the reverse, which is why it's equipped with a detachable last-ditch torpedo at the front of the ship... The helmsman reported that their 'weapons were gone', so 'emptying the magazine' would also be an impossibility. They were running on backup power, so the chance of even building the momentum to breach the hull is unlikely...
Also, lets not forget, the Defiant was not the only ship in the battle, it didn't all fall on their shoulders to bring down the cube to save Earth, because they were fighting as part of a fleet (And ineffectively, because the admiral's ship had been destroyed, meaning there was no coordinating orders until Picard arrived and assumed command of the fleet and told them where to fire) so gung ho Lone Wolf tactics like that are utterly unnecessary... I admit, "prepare for ramming speed!" is one of my favorite lines of the film, but that doesn't make it the right order, and the helmsman was right to ignore it, especially as his instroments were telling him what was actually going on with the battle outside of Worf's desire to gain a place in Sto'vo'kor
Enh... this was before the Enterprise arrived. My take was; Worf thought his ship was about to be destroyed and the fleet was losing the battle. Therefore he decided to make the deaths of his crew count.
Did he really think he could destroy the Cube that way? Probably not. But the point was to hurt it as much as he could.
Now I wonder... if you get assimilated, do you go to Sto'vo'kor? :P
Probably not until you(that is the drone) actually die, if ever.
Which is why they were screwed without Picard. Picard's knowledge was an ace in the hole (and frankly not bringing him in to start was a really dumb move).
That's true, but doesn't really have any relevance to Worf's command decisions...
True, the engines may not have been working...but the Borg were still shooting at them until the Ent-E showed up in the way; I think that we should stop this debate until we can get hard data, since neither of us is going to be convinced without it.
I don't think they had the capacity to do much of anything...
I dunno. It WAS a war zone, the Klingons were the only ones in the area using cloaks...if you see something decloaking, shooting it is pretty much always a good idea.
No, it's never a good thing to shoot something without identifying the target. Ever.
I....just didn't particularly like that episode. I felt that it was pretty choppy.
I liked the majority of the episode, especially the point of view flashbacks which broke the fourth wall. I didn't like the ending, though, as once it was discovered that the Klingons were pulling shenanigans to get Worf, they all but ignored the fact that he fired without identifying the target, apart from the slap on the wrist Sisko gave him at the end...
From an interstellar law point of view? nope. Certain specific treaties prevent certain specific powers from using them, but it's not a tech that is banned as a general rule.... just scarce. Most powers that know how to make cloaks like to keep that knowledge to themselves.
So no legal reason why a Klingon freighter couldn't be cloaked? Of course, given it was a red-herring bait for Worf, it doesn't necessarily need to be legal...
Enh... this was before the Enterprise arrived. My take was; Worf thought his ship was about to be destroyed and the fleet was losing the battle. Therefore he decided to make the deaths of his crew count.
Did he really think he could destroy the Cube that way? Probably not. But the point was to hurt it as much as he could.
Now I wonder... if you get assimilated, do you go to Sto'vo'kor? :P
Probably not until you(that is the drone) actually die, if ever.
Had he been on a Klingon ship, that might've been an acceptable tactic, but on a Federation ship, his obligation was to protect and or evacuate his crew (as was done during the Battle of Wolf 359)
And on that line, if he didn't think he could actually destroy the cube, then he'd be carrying out an act he knew to be futile, so essentially premeditated murder of the crew relying on him for competent command decisions (which he clearly couldn't make)
No, it's never a good thing to shoot something without identifying the target. Ever.
One of the first things they taught us in hunting safety class when I was a kid.
Or, in the words of the unnamed gunnery chief in Mass Effect 2:
That is why you check your damn targets! That is why you wait for the computer to give you a damn firing solution! That is why, Serviceman Chung, we do not "eyeball it!" This is a weapon of mass destruction. You are not a cowboy shooting from the hip!
So no legal reason why a Klingon freighter couldn't be cloaked? Of course, given it was a red-herring bait for Worf, it doesn't necessarily need to be legal...
Had he been on a Klingon ship, that might've been an acceptable tactic, but on a Federation ship, his obligation was to protect and or evacuate his crew (as was done during the Battle of Wolf 359)
And on that line, if he didn't think he could actually destroy the cube, then he'd be carrying out an act he knew to be futile, so essentially premeditated murder of the crew relying on him for competent command decisions (which he clearly couldn't make)
Most freighters don't have cloaks though. Installing a cloak isn't the same as repainting the hull. It has to be done very carefully, or stuff like "The Emperor's new Cloak" happens. For freighters it probably isn't economical. It'd be expensive and take a lot to maintain.
It's not murder if they were going to die/get assimilated anyways. In a choice between die, and kamikaze.... well... I don't see that as a hard choice. The ship was badly damaged and the Borg had already taken out half the fleet. Worf had good reason to think his ship was doomed.
Comments
Have got to disagree there, I suspect it would have been a futile gesture, and as mentioned, Worf forcing his cultural opinion over that of everyone else on board. Someone was even being stretchered off the bridge, so the medics were clearly still trying to save lives. The guy at the helm was right to ignore the order... At least when Chakotay rammed the Kazon he got his crew off first and had himself beamed out at the last second, that's how a Pimp rams a ship
My character Tsin'xing
I'm going to say that in the Kazon situation, they were clearly vastly inferior and the ramming move basically assured victory.
Ramming in Worf's situation was "we're being obliterated, let's take at least a few of these TRIBBLE with us". Any attempt to drop shields and beam people off would be suicide against a cube; the rescuing ship would be instantly targeted and destroyed by the Collective entity.
Worf can either ram the Borg and take at least a few thousand drones, maybe even the entire cube if he gets lucky, with his ship, or keep shooting (inflicting little damage) and get obliterated by the next FAW volley. As far as he knows, the command structure is gone and nobody's coming to help. He's SCREWED either way, so might as well take a few Borg with him. And again, kinetic strikes are beyond OP in Trek.
I still think that he made the right move.
You're trying to justify the order on a random guess at what damage the impact might have achieved... It's as likely to have achieved very little, given the sizes and velocities of the ships involved... As commander, his obligation was to ensure the safety of his crew. Once he was told the condition they were in, his options were either remain adrift and hope they weren't destroyed (which would be unlikely, as once the Defiant ceased to be a threat, the Borg would have ignored it in favor of focussing on the ships which were actively attacking, proven when the Enterprise completely drew the fire away from the Defiant) or, ordered the crew to abandon ship, as Sisko did the first time they took the Defiant against the Dominion, and possibly also during the Battle of Chin'toka (but I can't remember that one for sure...) He was a Starfleet officer, in command of a Starfleet crew, who had no obligation to follow a pointlessly suicidal order... And again, his actions against the Klingon ship showed that in the heat of battle, his judgement became clouded and his order could be incorrect... As before, he wasn't a bad officer, he just wasn't suitable to command, which Sisko came to realize, despite having previously suggested that Worf would oneday have a crew to command. Sisko stopped giving him the benefit of the doubt, and saw his career had reached its pinnacle...
I'm looking at what kinetics do in Trek, and assuming based on the acceleration we see on-screen. Look how much damage the Ent-E did to the super-advanced Scimitar that was kicking everyone's butts; the Defiant's at similar range, worst-case scenario they rip a giant hole in the Borg ship and cause a massive antimatter explosion that could quite possibly take out the Borg's core.
I have to disagree. This is not a "wait and let someone pick us up later" situation. This is "the Borg are going to destroy Earth, if we don't take this cube down NOW there very well might not be a Federation Starfleet to pick us up afterwards" situation.
Which is why it's bad to have a capital planet in Trek...
Anyway. Worf in TNG-DS9 was an excellent security officer and IMHO very much the Klingon warrior ideal (something that most Klingons failed to live up to). He was not a good commanding officer (though I do defend his actions in First Contact), but he was an excellent and effective security officer and soldier.
STO Worf is intelligent, calm, competent, a solid CO, and (in my stories at least) keeps Three in line, so there's got to have been some character development in there.
I do see the point you're making, I just don't think the Defiant had the mass to actually cause that much damage (and let's not forget, Borg vessels were always describes as being massively destabilised. The same for his order to ram. The helmsman clearly had no intention of following the order, and I'd bet that if it got to a court-martial for refusal to obey a superior officer, the questionable nature of the order would be a valid defence, as Worf was clearly caught in the heat of the moment, as per when the Klingons almost succeeded in getting him extradited... And as before, yes, an excellent security officer, but certainly no commander...
Also, you can't use your own writing as a basis for judgement because it's an inherently biassed perspective...
You have a point, I just...well, I see that scene differently, especially given that we don't know how much the UFP knows about Borg cubes or the exact capabilities of the Defiant (although it WAS designed specifically to fight Borg).
And true, but let's face it, I think that the mark of a true Badass is keeping that freak in line...for example, in the big story that I'm reworking now, there's this bit: For reference, they're fighting a Fek'Ihri battle fleet that outnumbers them twenty to one, Trenek's ship has been boarded by Fek, and Rachel Connor (their best weapon against Fek on the ground) is in sickbay regrowing three limbs.
If you don't have balls of titanium when you first meet Three, you will by the time you get away.
Anyway, my personal story universe aside...
Based on Sphere of Influence and the Klingon story arc, STO's Worf has grown, matured, and become a lot more wordly. He's also had his Klingon idealism beaten out of him. He even called his son out on a genuine bit of stupid, and their relationship is shown to have improved a lot despite the, ah, strain of Torg pulling his sh*t on Alexander and the House of Martok.
He's more than fit to be a Captain now, IMHO.
The only reason the Klingons almost succeeded in getting him extradited is because either the presiding admiral was bloody incompetent, or she was being pressured from above by corrupt officials in the command structure that wanted the Klingons back onside and were willing to throw one of their own under the bus to achieve it. It's established in the first five minutes that Worf destroying the transport fell under justifiable homicide* because let's face it: even if there had been civilians on board the captain had intentionally flown into an active war zone. What the f*ck would you expect to happen? Do you think all the pretty lights are a harmless fireworks display or something? :rolleyes:
Worf was not acting as a Klingon, he was acting as a Starfleet officer, ergo the Klingons did not have jurisdiction. Only Starfleet's military justice system did. Letting Klingon law decide whether he can be extradited to the Klingons during active hostilities against the Klingons is a patently ludicrous conflict of interest. It is, in a word, illogical, Ms. Vulcan Admiral. So either she's an idiot or she's bending to political pressure, and either way she's not fit to be a JAG.
And why the hell does a civilian transport ship have a cloaking device in the first place? That entire episode was just badly thought-out from square one.
*May be misusing the term; the point is, Worf had already been cleared of wrongdoing under Starfleet's rules.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
I agree, he's definitely grown and fit to be a captain now, but he definitely wasn't during his time on DS-9
He's fighting a bird-of-prey that's using its cloaking device to launch hit-and-run attacks. What the hell do you think is going to happen when he picks up a ship decloaking directly in front of him? I would've done the exact same damn thing, because if I'm right it means I catch the TRIBBLE with his shields down (and there was no evidence at all for why I shouldn't be right), and if I'm wrong it's the other captain's fault for flying into the middle of a dogfight. That's called being Too Dumb to Live. You really expect that you can wander out into rush hour traffic and not get run over, or perhaps more appropriately, not get machine-gunned if you run out into no-man's-land during the Battle of the Somme?
And as for O'Brien, as he himself said, he wasn't in command of the ship, and as an enlisted man would never be in command of the ship unless every single officer aboard was incapacitated, therefore posing the question to him has no bearing on what Worf should or should not have done.
And again, the entire episode had them trying Worf under Klingon law because the judge was a moron. Under Starfleet law, i.e. the only one that should have actually mattered, he was explicitly cleared of any wrongdoing in the first five minutes, regardless of what Sisko thought about it.
And no, a civilian vessel, as the transport was explicitly stated to be, has zero business owning a cloaking device. That's inherently going to be tightly restricted technology to prevent somebody less anal about the rules than the Federation, e.g. Nausicaan pirates or the Cardassians whom the Klingons are fighting at that very moment, from getting their hands on one. Unless the Klingons are as incompetent as that Vulcan, which I suppose is possible considering Quark and Rom managed to steal the cloaking device from the IKS Rotarran, i.e. General Martok's flagship. :rolleyes:
No argument regarding the intel asset, though. That was a clear-cut case for why fraternization rules are a must in any military service.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Worf really didn't have what it took to command a Starfleet ship. If Michael Dorn ever gets his wish, I certainly hope the writers for his show give the character sufficient character development to explain why he's now captain of a ship.
The problem, though, is that the Defiant's basically dead in the water; the core's going critical, half the ship's systems are broken, and the Borg are still shooting at them.
In that situation you NEED to inflict as much damage as possible as quickly as possible because if you don't that cube is going to assimilate Earth.
I think that it was the right move; the Defiant is DESIGNED for effectively suicidal runs against the Borg, it's got the best chance of any ship there at inflicting serious damage, so what you do is build up some speed, empty the magazine at the cube, and ram it.
O'Brien was being specifically questioned as an acknowledged seasoned combat veteran who knew Starfleet's rules of engagement. I quite agree, he wasn't in command, and was unlikely to be, it was also very clear he didn't want to have to say something which would be damaging to the reputation of the man who delivered his first child. But, he still answered that he would not have given the order to fire without verifying his target, and Sisko then later chastised Worf, telling him to be sure of his target in the future. I know, Plot dictated that Worf would have to get off, but the truth was, that in that instance, he was situationally incompetent, giving a pre-emptive order to fire on an unidentified target, and it was only the revelation of the Klingon's plan, which actually saved him from a considerable time in the stockade...
Are cloaks actually restricted technology though? I'm aware that the Federation allowed itself to be hamstrung by the Treaty of Algeron, but within the Empire, are they truly military only devices, or are they simply available to anyone with enough darseks?
The Defiant was not designed for suicide runs, quite the reverse, which is why it's equipped with a detachable last-ditch torpedo at the front of the ship... The helmsman reported that their 'weapons were gone', so 'emptying the magazine' would also be an impossibility. They were running on backup power, so the chance of even building the momentum to breach the hull is unlikely...
Also, lets not forget, the Defiant was not the only ship in the battle, it didn't all fall on their shoulders to bring down the cube to save Earth, because they were fighting as part of a fleet (And ineffectively, because the admiral's ship had been destroyed, meaning there was no coordinating orders until Picard arrived and assumed command of the fleet and told them where to fire) so gung ho Lone Wolf tactics like that are utterly unnecessary... I admit, "prepare for ramming speed!" is one of my favorite lines of the film, but that doesn't make it the right order, and the helmsman was right to ignore it, especially as his instroments were telling him what was actually going on with the battle outside of Worf's desire to gain a place in Sto'vo'kor
The rest of the fleet was in tatters, and the heavy cruisers were gone; they were down to frigates and some heavy escorts (Steamrunner- and Akira-class, IIRC).
I really think that the best move was ramming speed. Without command or backup, the cube was decimating the fleet; with that level of threat poised to take Earth, suicide runs are (regrettably) an absolutely acceptable and indeed advantageous tactic. Plus, some damage HAD been inflicted; a ram into a damaged portion of the Borg ship's plating might just have breached it and sent the Defiant into the cube's core; if not, there would be a big hole in the Borg ship from the blast, all ready for some torpedo love from the other ships.
Think of it like the Jem'Hadar ramming the Odyssey; that dinky frigate, barely larger than a fighter, obliterated a GCS in one hit. Defiant against a Borg cube is harder, but still POSSIBLE. And in this, extinction-level situation, Jem'Hadar tactics are absolutely a viable option.
Still going to disagree on this.
As for the DS9 example; what sort of civilian runs under cloak into an active war zone where cloaking devices are being used by troops and DOESN'T expect to be blown out of the water the moment they decloak? That entire episode was poorly thought-out.
The Jem'Hadar destroyed the Odyssey by taking out a nacelle, which in the episode of TNG where they were caught in the time loop, was shown to be a critically damaging strike which would destroy the ship. A Borg cube, on the other hand, is a decentralized (according to Data's initial scans) structure. Different targets require different tactics. Given your love for the pew pew pew, I'm not surprized you consider it a valid order
The kind which is being used as a bait for someone stupid enough to take it... Let's be clear, they weren't looking to simply discredit Starfleet or some random commander, they were trying to get hold of Worf, son of Mogh, and he had enough enemies in the Empire that any one of them may have come up with the idea... As before, I actually think it makes sense for a freighter passing through a dangerous area to have a cloak for protection, but the freighter is a red-herring, because it was something they knew that if they streered Worf in the right direction with a battle, he would be unable to avoid shooting at it while under the Red Mist. The episode was well thought out, the issue was Worf getting off at the end when they uncovered the truth about the freighter, because TrekTendency is mostly to have the heros come out on top, rather than suffering the consequences...
Without the Enterprise, they were screwed, in firepower as well as tactics. Love of pew-pew? Maybe in-game, not IRL. Even in-game, I prefer tanking.
Anyway, the Borg Cube HAS taken some damage; Worf's got the last ship with serious firepower as Mirandas and Akiras are being swatted left and right. Not knowing that the Ent-E is coming, I'd definitely order (a) a volley with everything the ship still had aimed at a damaged section, and then (b) a ramming attack on the same section. With a big hole in the cube, the smaller ships could pull a Voyager and fly inside (where the weapons can't reach them) and just blow the whole mass apart, shifting aux power to shields and weapons et cetera.
It'd only convince a JAG with an IQ less than that of the average persimmon.
If you try a false-flag like that, SOMEBODY will say "hey, what the hell is a legitimate freighter doing with a cloak?", because that's extremely suspicious at best (and more likely a sign of a serious smuggler). Also, a freighter flying into an active war zone without an escort is astoundingly idiotic.
I'm still not buying that that was Worf's fault; it was a poorly thought-ought false flag supported by a moron JAG.
Only because plot dictated that Picard show up and save the day... Realistically, one of the other captains would have taken over the fleet and been the coordinator, although of course, Picard's knowledge of the Borg was certainly superior than any other captain there...
With what weapons? The helmsman clearly stated their weapons were gone... How much support the back up power could have provided is vague, and without hard statistics, somewhat depends on plot necessity, but given Riker noted that the Defiant was losing lifesupport, it's fair to guess that the backups were also failing, and the ship wasn't going anywhere under its own power... I doubt ramming was even a viable option...
The freighter is a red herring, ignore the freighter...
Worf's error was in ordering weapons fire on an unidentified target. As mentioned above, I can understand why he would give such an order (and so did the Klingons when they prepared the trap for him) but that doesn't make it a legitimate order. Sure, they uncovered the ruse of the freighter and that got him off the hook, but arguably, he still should have been disciplined for his failure to identify his target... All Sisko did was give him a telling off, because that's what the writers wanted to do (afterall, why introduce a character to the series only to then remove him by sending him to prison) but arguably, given O'Brien's testimony and Sisko's reaction, he should've been facing action for the order he gave, not the result of the order being carried out...
I dunno. It WAS a war zone, the Klingons were the only ones in the area using cloaks...if you see something decloaking, shooting it is pretty much always a good idea.
I....just didn't particularly like that episode. I felt that it was pretty choppy.
Did he really think he could destroy the Cube that way? Probably not. But the point was to hurt it as much as he could.
Now I wonder... if you get assimilated, do you go to Sto'vo'kor? :P
Probably not until you(that is the drone) actually die, if ever.
My character Tsin'xing
I don't think they had the capacity to do much of anything...
No, it's never a good thing to shoot something without identifying the target. Ever.
I liked the majority of the episode, especially the point of view flashbacks which broke the fourth wall. I didn't like the ending, though, as once it was discovered that the Klingons were pulling shenanigans to get Worf, they all but ignored the fact that he fired without identifying the target, apart from the slap on the wrist Sisko gave him at the end...
Had he been on a Klingon ship, that might've been an acceptable tactic, but on a Federation ship, his obligation was to protect and or evacuate his crew (as was done during the Battle of Wolf 359)
And on that line, if he didn't think he could actually destroy the cube, then he'd be carrying out an act he knew to be futile, so essentially premeditated murder of the crew relying on him for competent command decisions (which he clearly couldn't make)
Or, in the words of the unnamed gunnery chief in Mass Effect 2:
It's not murder if they were going to die/get assimilated anyways. In a choice between die, and kamikaze.... well... I don't see that as a hard choice. The ship was badly damaged and the Borg had already taken out half the fleet. Worf had good reason to think his ship was doomed.
My character Tsin'xing