test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

Say something positive about...Archer.

245

Comments

  • worffan101worffan101 Member Posts: 9,518 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Well, clearly someone hasn't.... Obviously the idea that Natural Selection would cause a race to die off is preposterous. But.... Natural Selection doesn't CREATE genetic diseases. However, the ENTIRE Valakian race had the condition, not just some of them.

    Viruses can cause genetic damage and give the next generation traits the current one doesn't. In this case it would seem that the virus WAS natural, and simply behaving in unusual ways. But Phlox said the problem was a part of Valakian DNA itself and NOT caused by an actual illness, so, meh. Of course, he could be wrong.... Retcons happen. Especially to stupid ideas. this one could easily be patched by saying the virus that caused the genetic damage was extinct for centuries.

    Either way.... how is this MORE preposterous than the pseudo-science from other episodes?

    It's definitely not more preposterous than Threshold.

    It just makes a mockery of REAL science instead of just making up technobabble.
  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    either way.... how is this MORE preposterous than the pseudo-science from other episodes?

    Because Captain Jonathan "Trained Diplomat" Archer committed negligent genocide over it.
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
    — Sabaton, "Great War"
    VZ9ASdg.png

    Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    starswordc wrote: »
    Because Captain Jonathan "Trained Diplomat" Archer committed negligent genocide over it.
    "Negligent Genocide" Define the term, it's not in my dictionary..... Are you making up words again?
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • worffan101worffan101 Member Posts: 9,518 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    "Negligent Genocide" Define the term, it's not in my dictionary..... Are you making up words again?

    Letting a species or society die while fully capable of preventing the extinction from happening.
  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    "Negligent Genocide" Define the term, it's not in my dictionary..... Are you making up words again?
    worffan101 wrote: »
    Letting a species or society die while fully capable of preventing the extinction from happening.

    What he said. It's a take-off of a real-world criminal offense called "negligent homicide".
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
    — Sabaton, "Great War"
    VZ9ASdg.png

    Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    starswordc wrote: »
    What he said. It's a take-off of a real-world criminal offense called "negligent homicide".
    Except that your definition requires a level of exactitude that wasn't in the episode. It wasn't like the Valakians would die off within a year if Archer didn't act. Phlox projected they still had centuries to find a cure on their own.

    See, if Picard had decided to put the Boraalans back where they came from... see, that could fit. There was a clear and present danger. Picard had a timeline. He knew when the planet would become uninhabitable and it was a matter of days.... not centuries.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Except that your definition requires a level of exactitude that wasn't in the episode. It wasn't like the Valakians would die off within a year if Archer didn't act. Phlox projected they still had centuries to find a cure on their own.
    And how many people would die before they possibly found a cure that Phlox had already developed?

    It's the same argument from ignorance that people always throw with the Prime Directive, except the United Earth Starfleet, with whom Phlox is an exchange officer and whose rules he is thus obligated to act under unless they conflict with the interests of the Denobulan government (such as if he was ordered to spy on Denobula and give the results to Earth), doesn't have a Prime Directive.
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
    — Sabaton, "Great War"
    VZ9ASdg.png

    Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
  • grylakgrylak Member Posts: 1,594 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    But by curing them, they would have condemmed the subservient species to always be in a position of inferiority. To essentially be slaves. So why is it ok to free some slaves by war, but not by witholding a cure?


    I'm not saying Archer was right or wrong here, I'm just wanting people to realise the situation is alot more complex than it's being stated as.
    *******************************************

    A Romulan Strike Team, Missing Farmers and an ancient base on a Klingon Border world. But what connects them? Find out in my First Foundary mission: 'The Jeroan Farmer Escapade'
  • tucana66tucana66 Member Posts: 710 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Archer?

    Best super spy in the world (despite the womanizing, narcissism, inability to manage his own life).

    Oh... you mean JONATHAN Archer!

    Great actor (Scott Bakula), good captain.
  • worffan101worffan101 Member Posts: 9,518 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    capnkirk4 wrote: »
    Yeah, we know already. You have a bee in your bonnet over the Federation not being portrayed as the tidy, whiteys they were in TNG. Jeez, I've never seen anybody get so worked up over fictional characters. You're like crazy, cockadootie, Kathy Bates in Misery.

    Thank you for this entirely unproductive comment, utterly pointless and actually incomprehensible personal attack, and general impenetrable lack of grammar, common sense, or even references later than the...1920s? I seriously don't know what the hell you're trying to reference there.

    Come back when you have a real argument about the benefits or downsides of Archer, Archer's hypocrisy, or Archer's serial crimes against sentient life, little boy.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,354 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    worffan101 wrote: »
    Thank you for this entirely unproductive comment, utterly pointless and actually incomprehensible personal attack, and general impenetrable lack of grammar, common sense, or even references later than the...1920s? I seriously don't know what the hell you're trying to reference there.

    Come back when you have a real argument about the benefits or downsides of Archer, Archer's hypocrisy, or Archer's serial crimes against sentient life, little boy.
    And I was just about to email you and advise you to let the troll slide. They live on attention, you know - the one thing that really drives 'em nuts is when you ignore them.
    Lorna-Wing-sig.png
  • captainoblivouscaptainoblivous Member Posts: 2,284 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    He's a really good looking bloke, who knows how to pick a crew?
    Oh, and his dog is adorable. Pissing on holy trees, how cute! :D
    I need a beer.

  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    capnkirk4 wrote: »
    On a related note, Who thinks Worf was a neutered, sorry excuse for a Klingon, who should have been hunted down by the Empire, and sold into Orion servitude, for having the audacity to refer to himself as a Klingon Warrior?

    Worf aspired to act the way Klingon legends and literature dictated a Klingon warrior was supposed to behave, rather than the drunken, imbecilic thugs that they really act like, House of Martok excepted (and they're ennobled commoners). He's got nothing to be ashamed of.
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
    — Sabaton, "Great War"
    VZ9ASdg.png

    Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
  • icsairgunsicsairguns Member Posts: 1,504 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    daveyny wrote: »
    I don't understand all the hate.
    He was the first Captain to head out beyond known space at the time.

    Except for his Human helmsman and the helmsman entire family. Oh and all the other transport/cargo ships out in space. oh and all the traders that set up the original trade routes that those ships were visiting.


    now what can you say good about him?

    He set the standard for a vulcan 1st officer.

    He proved Sam Becket may have lived on as he was able to leap into times out side of his own lifetime.

    umm thats all i got
    Trophies for killing FEDS ahh those were the days. Ch'ar%20POST%20LoR.JPG


  • deaftravis05deaftravis05 Member Posts: 4,885 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    It wasn't Earth's right to decide who gets the planet. They had to let it play out naturally.

    That's the difficult thing about the whole situation.

    It's not genocide. Not really.
  • daveynydaveyny Member Posts: 8,227 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    icsairguns wrote: »
    Except for his Human helmsman and the helmsman entire family. Oh and all the other transport/cargo ships out in space. oh and all the traders that set up the original trade routes that those ships were visiting.


    now what can you say good about him?

    He set the standard for a vulcan 1st officer.

    He proved Sam Becket may have lived on as he was able to leap into times out side of his own lifetime.

    umm thats all i got

    I think you missed the "Beyond Known Space" part.
    STO Member since February 2009.
    I Was A Trekkie Before It Was Cool ... Sept. 8th, 1966 ... Not To Mention Before Most Folks Around Here Were Born!
    Forever a STO Veteran-Minion
    upside-down-banana-smiley-emoticon.gif
  • icsairgunsicsairguns Member Posts: 1,504 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    daveyny wrote: »
    So our morals override ( A ) Completely Different Society's morals because...???

    That's the entire ambiguous question of the episode... What gives us the right to do so?

    Why are ours superior to another Society's, who have been functioning just fine for many, many generations...?

    :confused:

    a slight edit to your post . now apply that to the U.S civil war. same should hold true shouldn't it?
    Trophies for killing FEDS ahh those were the days. Ch'ar%20POST%20LoR.JPG


  • organicmanfredorganicmanfred Member Posts: 3,236 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    So, who derailed the thread this time? I HATE it when that happens.
  • icsairgunsicsairguns Member Posts: 1,504 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    daveyny wrote: »
    I think you missed the "Beyond Known Space" part.

    well i remember them out in this beyond know space for a couple of seasons then all a sudden may weather was visiting his family after his farther died. with them saying they are not that far out of the way.

    and everyplace they went they kept running into creatures. dont seem very unknown to me.
    Trophies for killing FEDS ahh those were the days. Ch'ar%20POST%20LoR.JPG


  • shpoksshpoks Member Posts: 6,967 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Jonathan Archer was the perfect Captain for the role he was intended to play in the Star Trek universe and the timeframe his adventures were set in. In fact, the reason I enjoyed ENT was that even as a prequel that came after 4 Star Trek TV shows it showed that reversed continuity of the human evolution in Star Trek.

    So take note - Archer is the Captain of the first official Earth starship that is non-comercial, with humanity relatively fresh out of a devastating 3-rd world war, fresh out of first contact with alien species and the discovery that we're not alone in the universe and fresh out of an 'Eugenics War' that also had devastating consequences on Earth and humanity. Contact with alien civilizations is still limited, the first aliens you met have somewhat of a "big brother" approach towards your development as species constantly looking over your shoulder and putting you down and you know that there are at least one species that have an interstellar empire based on conqest and subjugating what they consider "lesser species".

    Observed from that perspective, Archer was almost the perfect character for his role that was set in such circumistances. Was he always right? Ofcourse not. Was he always wrong? No, not even close. The whole point of his character, the rest of the main cast and the show itself was to portray that timeframe and the jump/evolution from ENT to TOS.
    Archer was suposed to make mistakes. Archer and his crew were suposed to be hurt by those mistakes. He was suposed to make some stupid and questionable decisions. He was suposed to be prejudiced. Don't forget that this is pre-Federation Earth, with not even a whisper of the potential existence of the UFP. His character was intended to portray that struggle with the heavy social background, being only a human and the desire and aspiration to become something more, improve and do something relevant.

    One thing people seem to neglect - Archer had his lol-ship, with humanity's current lol-technology installed (and not even the apex of humanity's lol-technology since the Enterprise left without several systems being installed due to the circumistances) and a grand total of whooping 83 crewmembers and suddenly...they are the face of Earth to the unknown! To new civilizations, new species - it's all up to him. Noone but those 83 people to consult and his decisions being the ultimate representation of Earth and humanity for better or worse.
    Trained diplomat or not, that's no miniscule task. It's easy to be an armchair general after the battle. How many 'trained diplomats' today in our world can't properly solve issues between nations belonging to the same species whose only difference at times is they speak a different dialect of the same language and ones call themselves "Group A" while the others "Group B", for many decades?

    So yeah, Archer is a-ok in my book for the role he was intended to fulfill in the Star Trek continuity. Frankly I don't understand the rage either, but then again it seems some people really want to scrape even the bottom of the barrel in order to find something to rage about.

    The way I see it (not 100%, ofcourse):

    - You have TOS and you have Kirk and his crew where it's evident that mankind has evolved and incorporated a higher level of collective consciousness, but they're still very reckognizable as conterporary humans. Kirk chases tail all the time, if punching something is a solution he'll get into a fist fight, but he's a good Captain. They have Spock, they trust Spock but still banter him about being a Vulcan and still don't trust Vulcans in general on the same level they trust Spock. Humanity is evolving, but it's still reckognizably human in their actions (to our contemporary standards) - hence Kirk's "Let them die!" speech in ST: The Undiscovered Country.

    - Then you have TNG and we get Picard and his crew, which is much much more diverse than Kirk's, with a multitude of different alien species from the Federaton serving aboard. There is obvious evolution of sorts - their attitude as humans is more refined, more pragmatic, more philosophic...deeper somehow. The outlook on the proverbial world and their existence has changed. Where Kirk would have ended in a brawl, Picard attempts for a peacefull resolution to the literally last resort.

    - Followed by DS9 - and you have Sisko who is torn apart between his humanity and being a Starfleet Officer and his 'Prophet' heritage and position of 'Emissary' to the Bajorans. The show outlines the evolution that happened in TNG perfectly as the same system of values is present, however they do explore humanity and the human condition under dire circumistances like the Dominion War. The point is to portray that struggle between the aspiration for improvement and becomming something more and basic human insticts and what being a human means.
    Can't remember how was that famous Quark quote about taking away the Humans conveniency, food, clothes, replicators and holodecks and see what they can turn into or sth. like that.

    - Voyager, ok let's face it Voyager suffered from bad writing across the board. I watched it and enjoyed it multiple times, but I usually didn't try to dwell and look much into things. I mean, they had limited supply of....what, was it 72 torpedoes? How many did Voyager fire, was it like 400 - there's even a video clip on YouTube. They one-shotted Borg tactical cubes with a single torpedo. The continuity was there, but in a whole messed up way due to bad writing.

    - Finally, there came ENT and it was suposed to portray humanity before Kirk in terms of this continuity. And like I mentioned - Archer as a character was intended to fill that role of being the face of humanity in that timeframe even to us, the viewers. Showing the human potential for improvement and the first steps on that path towards the Kirk/TOS era of presentation of humanity, but still clearly showing that "it's a loooooong road...." :D, making many mistakes, learning as they go on, making stupid decisons, making smart decisions, overreacting to certain things, underreacting to others. A learning process, in a "thrown right in the fire" kind of way. After all, there were reasons the Vulcans considered Humans not to be ready for that adventure yet - it's only logical.

    So yeah, don't diss Archer. Also....holy wall of text, Batman!!! :eek:
    HQroeLu.jpg
  • worffan101worffan101 Member Posts: 9,518 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    I could devote an entire thread to VOY continuity gaffes, but right now I will focus on the salient point, which is...

    Archer was not merely a fallible human. Kirk, Picard, and Sisko were fallible people. Archer was a whiny, self-centered, over-ranked incompetent who, despite ostensibly being a trained diplomat, threatened to urinate upon the most sacred artifacts of an alien culture (who he was negotiating with for an essential part at the time) because his DOG got sick. That's not just incompetence, that's active malice.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,354 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Being a little rough in handling multispecies negotiations is one thing - and I think he handled the P'jem issue pretty well, all things considered.

    It's another when you've been informed that a particular tree is regarded as sacred to the culture of the locals, your dog piddles against it - and you don't understand why they're offended. Should've had someone at that point in the episode ask him exactly where he'd received his training, so he could say something along the lines of, "Well, there was this extension course from Star Fleet..."
    Lorna-Wing-sig.png
  • icsairgunsicsairguns Member Posts: 1,504 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    shpoks

    he and his medical officer also deliberately infected the crew of a Klingon command ship with the augment virus causing generations of Klingon's to be altered. if they had just left them alone the command ship would have destroyed the outpost and put an end to the threat to the Empire right then and there.


    Now as a human and pretending we don't know the future of the franchise sure hes fine i guess, really points out just how dumb we can be.


    But as a trek fan and Klingon fan he and his crew were a menace, to be held with utmost contempt until the days of Kirk.


    SO yeah you feddy bears should love the guy, but to Klingons not so much.
    Trophies for killing FEDS ahh those were the days. Ch'ar%20POST%20LoR.JPG


  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    @shpoks: The problem is, a lot of Archer's dumber mistakes, like the dog thing, could've been easily avoided with a little exercise of common sense. I don't have to be a trained diplomat to tell you that threatening to TRIBBLE on people is a really terrible way to get their support. And like B&B's other utter disgrace to the uniform, Janeway, he was often right for completely the wrong reasons.

    I can forgive him the occasional mistake, but jackassery like that is ridiculous and begs the question of how the hell a moron like that got given command of a ship, any ship, let alone Earth's first exploration vessel, in the first place. (The canonical answer is because his daddy was in middle management during the project that launched the NX-01. Friggin' nepotism.)
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
    — Sabaton, "Great War"
    VZ9ASdg.png

    Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    shpoks wrote: »
    - Voyager, ok let's face it Voyager suffered from bad writing across the board. I watched it and enjoyed it multiple times, but I usually didn't try to dwell and look much into things. I mean, they had limited supply of....what, was it 72 torpedoes? How many did Voyager fire, was it like 400 - there's even a video clip on YouTube. They one-shotted Borg tactical cubes with a single torpedo. The continuity was there, but in a whole messed up way due to bad writing.
    Enh... much like how they repair the ship between episodes, It seems that they had come up with some method for making functional torpedoes. Not likely the same as the ones they had as standard Federation issue, but something that worked.
    So yeah, don't diss Archer. Also....holy wall of text, Batman!!! :eek:
    Good post. :D
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • shpoksshpoks Member Posts: 6,967 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    starswordc wrote: »
    @shpoks: The problem is, a lot of Archer's dumber mistakes, like the dog thing, could've been easily avoided with a little exercise of common sense.

    No, actually the problem is that every Star Trek series had it's fair share of extremely crappy writing. Every single one of them. Now some of you guys have focused on several instances that are prime example of said extremely crappy writing and are blowing the thing way out of proportion. What I'm talking about is his character in general, from the first episode to the last, how he was portrayed and how he was suposed to be portrayed in that show.

    So yeah, if you only take those instances of extremely crappy writing you can argue and come to the conclusion that he's an idiot.
    The people on this forum raging against Picard.....lol :D now that I think of it as I type this - I think you're one of them :P, have the same point - we can take several instances of bad writing and conclude that Picard was a dumb pompous coward. Others see only the best instances where his character shined and consider him the best ST Captain ever.

    I've come to accept that when different people watch Star Trek, they realy do see different things a lot of the time:

    - Some see philosophy and deeper meaning
    - Some see values contradicting their own
    - Some see just a form on entertainment
    - Some only see pew-pew lazorz and space explosions
    - And to some the biggest mystery is why they have never shown Picard on the toilet seat

    Granted, I don't always like or agree with what people see/saw in Star Trek, but it is what it is.
    HQroeLu.jpg
  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Enh... much like how they repair the ship between episodes, It seems that they had come up with some method for making functional torpedoes. Not likely the same as the ones they had as standard Federation issue, but something that worked.

    Problem is they explicitly state in "The Cloud" that they have no way of refilling the magazine.

    Which, by the way, doesn't make a lick of sense on closer examination. Lore-wise photon torpedoes are just guided missiles with matter/antimatter warheads. Most of the parts are probably replicateable; the only tricky part would be the antimatter (and they can probably get that from friendly-ish aliens such as the Sikarians and Baneans).

    So in other words B&B set up a limitation that doesn't make actual sense given lore, then completely ignored it and never bothered to acknowledge that they did so. Welcome to the idiocy that is Voyager.
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
    — Sabaton, "Great War"
    VZ9ASdg.png

    Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Sign In or Register to comment.