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Surgical Strike 3
nitefiuu
Member Posts: 253 Arc User
http://youtu.be/GurHFt7oXPk
devs, pls with a clear YES or NO:
Is this how you guys meant to implement SS3 ? aka. works as intended ?
im sure it works as the tooltip says but thats not the question here. The question is, was this meant to work like that -see video- vs. players too ?
if yes; pls explain in details why -if possible-
if "not exactly"is this going2be addressed anytime soon ?
tip:
as a longterm fix for problems like this it would be about time to separate things to "npc & pc" targets, and simply just adjust the values accordingly.
example: voth weapons > different values vs. on voth & non-voth targets
list goes on..
devs, pls with a clear YES or NO:
Is this how you guys meant to implement SS3 ? aka. works as intended ?
im sure it works as the tooltip says but thats not the question here. The question is, was this meant to work like that -see video- vs. players too ?
if yes; pls explain in details why -if possible-
if "not exactly"is this going2be addressed anytime soon ?
tip:
as a longterm fix for problems like this it would be about time to separate things to "npc & pc" targets, and simply just adjust the values accordingly.
example: voth weapons > different values vs. on voth & non-voth targets
list goes on..
Battle Trek Online: KILL EVERYTHING
Post edited by nitefiuu on
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But guess what, when they added mobs with a bazillion hp they didn't have PvP in mind.:rolleyes:
Powercreep = $
There's your explantion.
Is this whole system on how they cash in by completely TRIBBLE over any balance wrong? Yes.
Are they gonna stop? No, because again: Powercreep = $.
i mean even ionic storm got fixed which was the only tool to standalone pop tanks and other big/hull high/res setups that could survive or at the very least able at all to counter/punish surgical strike usage
The original balance point of all 3 ranks of SS was based around mid-geared players using SS vs. FAW (1 target) vs CRF. In those initial balance passes, SS underperformed, but we knew that a well-geared and well-played player would cause the pendulum to swing the other way. We didn't fully anticipate just how far it would swing.
A safer, long-term solution for this ability, may be to install hard-caps on CritD when used in PvP. Heck, maybe ALL PvP should have a CrtD cap...
To directly answer the original question - SS is working as intended, as designed. But it is scaling more aggressively than anticipated in the hands of exceptional players.
We don't have a solution just yet, but its on our radar of issues we're hoping to tackle. Ideally, we'll find a way to tune the ability only where it is most problematic - PvP - and leave it's PvE functionality as untouched as possible.
Cryptic - Lead Systems Designer
"Play smart!"
this is why id support getting separated this game (as engine) (or zones!!) to pve and pvp
even if its not doable "in a day" it would still worth the effort in the long run.
worth it because from that point, adjusting/finetuning things yet to come (or already existing) will become far, i mean FAR less complicated to handle/balance without the need to favor either pve or pvp. it would favor both.
One player suggestion was to remove the Accuracy bonus entirely - maybe that would not be enough, but if it was, it would have very little impact on PvE, since NPCs don't have good defense values, but in PvP, players usually do.
Please no.... just no...
After having spent hundreds of millions of EC and countless thousands of dilithium and zen on high performance builds, people are NOT going to be very happy about having all that time, effort and resources flushed down the toilet.
Not to mention that tanking and healing capabilities are through the roof these days.
Sometimes the only way to even reliably get kills is vaping with a high CritD count, and many escorts these days can tank like cruisers.
Since there's no "open world" PvP, couldn't you simply make it behave differently when in a PvP instance? Target wouldn't matter at that point.
my vaper alt (strongly built around boosting crtD) can deal far greater dmg without surgical strike but:
1, one way ticket (lots of time it miss the target, specially the more faster escorts with their low hulls in mind)
2, opponenet's res. works appropriately (usualy half the dmg output res'd. while ss3 attacks basicly ignores whatever resist you got / run most of the time)
3, takes at least 2 to 5 mins per attempt else lots of desired buffups are on cd (unlike SS3 that u can run like every 15-20 seconds )
4, list goes on.
just because you and some "suddenly strong" new players invested in a clearly miss-placed power, is a personal matter.
the only thing makes me use SS3 once in a blue moon, can be described with one word: laziness. (and hate)
but than again, good vapers doesnt need surgical strike to perform well.
lazy noobs need surgical3 in its current form. harsh as it might be sound, but no offense intended.
and i wouldnt be mad the slightest even tho i spent 100M+ too per weps for getting crtdx4 procs. i know from the begining it wont last forever as it is.
when i pop 7/7 feds in a row with 1 button pressed (while i know otherwise i would have little chanche) its just kills the purpose of pvp.
you go in to make a kill with skill. real skill i mean as experience and some great deal of risk to perform it well.
anything else belongs to pve
if one good enough, the investment made for crtD "overflow" will not in vein.
last time i checked, the basic DPS buff from activating SS trumps CRF at every level, before you add in any of the crit chance and acc buffing. how could that be working as intended? thats ludicrous.
except for SS1 on beams, there is no DPS buff at all, but there is on cannons. /bug?
if SS only buffed damage the same amount as CRF, and thats it, it would still be a pretty fair amount better thanks to how concentrated and front loaded the damage is, marking it harder to react to. seriously though, how was making a single target energy weapon buff, that was SOOOOO much better then CRF, that also worked on beams, at any level a good idea? making something as root level as a station power, that does the same thing as another station power, only twice as good, is insanely BAD game design. they should do the same basic thing, in a different way, and situationally be better then each other, not have one utterly trump the other.
single target buffs have basically no value in pve, so why is pve even part of the consideration for this skill? now, if you actually made NPC more like player ships, loaded them up with weapon hardpoints and heals and abilities rather then 1 million hitpoints, and threw them at the player 1 at a time, not 3 to 5 to 10 at a time, then ya, pve might actually have a place in this conversation. and be worth playing.
May I suggest that when you test ANY new damage ability you do swing that pendulum to the extreme end while testing AND CONSIDER PVP IN YOUR TESTING? Many of these new abilities may look fine in a mid range build, but this game has gone crazy in the DPS department since the cookie cutter builds all push CrtD to the extremes.
Now it's too late to do a balance pass since you already released that thing completely overpowered. You just said you can't split the effect between PvP and PvE, and the PvE folks would once again get up in arms at the PvP crowd if you nerf it. Your lack of testing has created PvP matches where it sometimes comes down to FBP vs SS3.
I was going to say that capping CrtD in PvP might not be a good idea, but then I thought of a couple of matches I've had lately where it's all critical hits left and right. I'd be fine with you capping CrtD, more than the other solution Geko said of giving everyone super hulls/shields.
Glad this is on your radar.
Could just give players 10x the HP on PvP maps
We would have endless matches. Not a solution.
While I understand that it could be quite a headache to redesign powers to work this way in pve and that way in pvp it may inevitably be necessary. At least it would save the reworking them for both later on when it becomes apparent there is nothing strong enough to counter them. For now though I would think a quick fix would be to just extend the cooldown on it to that of directed energy modulation which since I'm on that subject dem and ss should have a shared cooldown so that neither can be active at the same time cause both active at the same time on top of a eptw3/weapon bat/red matter cap and mr. dulmar on active is major woah.
Just to throw this last idea out there....an incentive to testing on tribble would jog participation majorly in that area besides a tribble pet. I'm talking more incentive such as a nickel in zen per test completion with a server wide test completion cap or something that can be used on Holodeck by the player that did the testing. Strict guidelines on requirements for testing and all that. I mean give it the works so people aren't exploiting it but bottom line incentive would get more players testing things on tribble before they become public so we don't have to keep this vicious cycle of rework going. Or if that's too much then a simple notification area on Holodeck about what's being tested on Tribble and when might jog participation. The only thing I recently found out about being on tribble was the new sector maps. Otherwise I don't log on to Tribble daily much less explore around it trying to figure out what's new. Too though after testing something on Tribble there could be a feedback form cause not everyone uses these forums.
What we need is a defensive counter to mitigate the effect of critical hits on your ship. It could be a console, a trait or a doff. But in PVE it wont change the game that much, enemies in PVE don't stack the kinds of crit chance that we can. For PVP it would come down to player choice.
Do I want to leave myself vulnerable to surgical strikes, or do I want to sacrifice a slot to protect myself against it? Conversely the high DPSer must make the same choice. Do I want to go all in with my crit chance, knowing I will be ineffective against those who chose to mitigate critical damage done against them?
Now I'm not going to put out numbers. The degree and nature of critical damage mitigation that would be optimal is up for debate. But if balanced correctly this could change the way we pvp. Not just surgical would be effected, but many vape builds and of course the whole romulan race. Is this acceptable? Is it desirable? For some yes, for others no.
Certainly moving the meta away from high DPS would bring science further back into the ascendant. And might even increase the desirability of the oft dispised [dmg] mod. Do we want that?
I GET GREAT DPS AND I DONTT EVEN USE THE SKILL UNLESS ON MY PHANTON ESCORT NO BUFF NO NERF IS NESSARY SORRY TO SAY LEARN HOW TO BUILD BUT EVERY BUILD OF MINE HAS ALL WEAPONS AND KENTIOTIC RESIST OF 60 NO LESS AND CRIT ABOVE 15 AND SEVERITY AROUND 140 WITH FLOW CAPS AT 2.8. Please allot of you guys now me i live in kerrat the only answer to ss3 is a sub nuke and it works great i killed three last night alone with it
just ask q whip taz and poor old tech god he died allot gf all btw they did kill me back as its apost to be btw
SUB NUKE CARRIER WAVE IS A AWESOME TOOL......
Personally I didn't queued into PVP since the JHSS was launched and I am waiting for a fix to continuos CRF or a confirmation that is WAI to decide what will I be doing in future
About SS3 i started using it somewhere after ionic turbulence was second time nerfed since BO3+IT3 doesnt work as it worked before so I had to find something else to use in my T6 Faeht.
In this moment I use disruptor ACCx3 weapons with SS3 is not so strong as OP suggested.
Many times my BO3 hits harder than SS3 so it works ok from my point of view.
Of course I didn't tried CRTDX4 weapons because I don't have them,maybe with them things are different.
I refuse to be content https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwI0u9L4R8U
thats all cool but not everyone is a sci and nuke got 3mins cd? surgical got 30-15 sec.. and nuke can be cleared with sciteam. "good" ss3 exploiters puke u before u can react at all.
and i doubpt u can handle the situation every time when u get rekt from cloak ( and from rear ) and u dont hear it coming ( when they buff up from 10+km than fly in fast all rekt up )
Have you used SS3 and DEM1/2/3 together with Mr.Dulmar and a weapon power buff? Not to mention if timed right crf and a torp spreead can bust down shields down quite well then ss can finish it since it's like a multi hitting BO4 atm. Too though when testing SS3 you got to look at what it does far as crit chance and crit sev and adjust your Epic Spire consoles accordingly to maximize damage not to mention Nukara space offensive rep traits, alpha, armor pen trait, beta/fom and all that. I believe this is what Borticus was referring to. So much offensive stacking with this new season and not enough defensive stacking is where we are.
getting critical hits not hard at all to get nowdays and boosting its severity to deal 4x or more dealt dmg is the real deal
thats why that variant went skyrocket on the market
ACCx3 and upper is getting more and more irrelevant when SS3 standalone grants you instant +40% acc AND Critical Chance meaning: one will most likely deal only critical hits with pretty great chanche it will hit the target while severity is boosted to the sky to make these crit hit not only dealing deafult 2x but more like 4-5x more base dmg by its nature..
Only ships that can do this are intel. There are also..Tons..of threads on this topic..including how to mitigate the damage in PVP..
Rouge Sto Wiki Editor.
You probably don't PvP. The ship you saw in the OP had 100K hull and had its shields up throughout that run. Science and escort ships can't take the punichment, and spamming FBP becomes the ONLY strategy for T5U ships which makes PvP fights a game of who gets killed first in 2 seconds.
T5U ships weren't supposed to become completely obsolete because the new abilities were supposed to be balanced. Surgical strikes broke the balance completely because you don't need to work about accuracy or CrtH anymore. Now you just pump up CrtD as high as you can, slot in Elachi weapons (others work fine, but Elachi ones even better), and fire away and get a kill.
I do PVP..Thats why I aint buyin the ONLY FBP can defeat the SS monstar!! Ive told you jam sensors (Right as they decloak) and drain work very well. Not as simple as pushing the FBP button but thats were the skill comes in :P
There are alternative means of surviving the initial SS volleys (I do it in a sci)..After that just gotta be able to mop up the player before the next volley (15-30 sec) is available.
Alternatively...The Delta recruit trait might make this very easy with the immunity while healing. Guess well see..
Rouge Sto Wiki Editor.
just enough time to comfortably buff up and press ss3 again
Thats your window,same window I had to shoot for..I can do it and Im sure you can..Just took practice...I Constantly went up against a Fleety who had a built a2b eclipse. This was also while Ionic turbulence was auto hitting..
Fun?No..but I learned..and they can be killed if you employ the right tactics with alot off fire powa of your own.
Alternatively..There is a t5u only channel that does PVP. Could try there if your getting miffed at the sheer number of intel vapers there are..
Rouge Sto Wiki Editor.
Bort,
When people are complaining about SS3, they are mainly complain about two ships that can instant vape with SS3 after decloak (Faeht + phantom). I understand people want the chance to survive a vape; that is fair. However, these two ships, once they decloak, are two of the most squishy ships and can't do much outside of cloak. Please consider this as you try to balance some of the abilities for PvP. For vapers, SS3 is also an alternative to CRF3 + BO3, and these new choices is what makes the game fun.
Also, the exceptional players are a minority. If only exceptional players can do this, how will it affected the normal (and majority) players? Probably make their lives miserable, as now they can't kill anything outside of SS3. Not a fan of zombie cruiser mode and ships not dying outside of SnB + nuke.
Its...3 ships...you forgot the eclipse..Toughtest of the intel vapers :P
Rouge Sto Wiki Editor.