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  • disposeableh3r0disposeableh3r0 Member Posts: 1,927 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    westmetals wrote: »
    Oh... wait. You're proposing different buffs for turrets vs. cannons? And different for singles vs. dual beams?

    That brings up some massive balance issues, actually. There's already a perceived imbalance in favor of beams, and your proposal admittedly tilts things even farther in that direction?

    That's an even WORSE idea than what I was thinking you were trying to say for the last 50+ posts.

    Singles and turrets behave differently from duals. The general game balance is that the greater the firing arc the lower the damage.

    My thinking was that since turrets and singles already have large arcs and can be equipped on any ship then they should get either a flat damage bonus or a fire rate bonus to bring them closer to what beams can do.

    Also I have tried to be civil but if you are going to keep adding abuse into your responses I do t feel I wil have to goi g forward.
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  • edited March 2015
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  • disposeableh3r0disposeableh3r0 Member Posts: 1,927 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    westmetals wrote: »
    And what would be the point of that?

    Meanwhile, you're handing a massive advantage to those 8-single-beam cruisers, since no other weapon type can be equipped in every slot.


    The point is the trade off, more damage maybe, but still a limited arc or still less damage overall.

    And with my original suggested bonus to beams it would max out at 7% damage assuming the out of my **** numbers were kept.
    As a time traveller, Am I supposed to pack underwear or underwhen?

    Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln

    Occidere populo et effercio confractus
  • edited March 2015
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  • disposeableh3r0disposeableh3r0 Member Posts: 1,927 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    westmetals wrote: »
    That would never happen. The single beam enthusiasts would scream if the buff was scaled such that having 8 single beams was equal to having no more than 5 of any other weapon type (and you cannot reasonably slot more than 5 of any other type on one ship, since all other energy weapons except turrets are locked to forward only).... and everyone else would scream if the single-beamers got their way.

    And in the meantime, the imbalance would cause everyone who min/maxes to have to shift in favor of one particular type of build even more than they already do.

    Well there are only afew ships that can even have 5 of the other weapons types and the bonus to those was different.

    Also sacrificing the ability to have any other weapon equipped is something I was aiming to make an actual sacrifice, the whole idea of the bonuses was to make you look at those 8 beams and actually have to decide if it was worth it for your build. Yes it would still be good, but then adding those torps/mines/dbb may be just as good for you.

    No it wont be good for everyone but then nothing really is. If it were we would all have the same ship with the same weapons.
    As a time traveller, Am I supposed to pack underwear or underwhen?

    Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln

    Occidere populo et effercio confractus
  • edited March 2015
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  • disposeableh3r0disposeableh3r0 Member Posts: 1,927 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    westmetals wrote: »
    Except that's precisely what your proposal would encourage - eight-slot cruisers running all-single-beam builds. The only variety would be in the particular cruisers being used, their other equipment, and the energy types and mods on the weapons.

    So in your mind a 7% damage bonus would out weigh say a 225 degree arc on your dbbs or a torpedo going off every 2 seconds.

    This is where a bonus I didn't think of could be suggested. What would make a tempting alternative.
    As a time traveller, Am I supposed to pack underwear or underwhen?

    Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln

    Occidere populo et effercio confractus
  • edited March 2015
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  • walshicuswalshicus Member Posts: 1,314 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    If anything, there should be a modest buff for using different weapon types. Maybe have the first of each weapon types you use take less power or something.

    Energy types are best kept uniform though.
    http://mmo-economics.com - analysing the economic interactions in MMOs.
  • disposeableh3r0disposeableh3r0 Member Posts: 1,927 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    westmetals wrote: »
    That's beside the point.

    Any incremental bonus that is based on having no more than four or five of something is going to be inherently imbalanced compared to something you can have eight of... either the single beam bonus is going to have to be so underpowered that you NEED eight, or so overpowered that everyone is going to want to use that.

    Both would vastly upset game balance AND the community.

    Besides, we don't need to tempt players to build ships like what you seem to want. They're already doing it.


    No they are either forgoing efficiency for flavor or going with one of the cookie cutter builds that's popular at the moment.

    On most ships that can support it 8 beams is superior to almost anything else you can do with that ship.

    I haven't seen a 4 single cannon 4 turret cruiser in a while, not saying there aren't any just haven't seen them.

    But you know what I bore with this. Obviously my original hope for this is gone, if there was a good discussion to be had here it wont happen now. Too many negative posts. Oh well.
    As a time traveller, Am I supposed to pack underwear or underwhen?

    Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln

    Occidere populo et effercio confractus
  • disposeableh3r0disposeableh3r0 Member Posts: 1,927 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    walshicus wrote: »
    If anything, there should be a modest buff for using different weapon types. Maybe have the first of each weapon types you use take less power or something.

    Energy types are best kept uniform though.

    You mean having arrays and beam banks would lessen the drain on your weapons power as opposed to all arrays?
    As a time traveller, Am I supposed to pack underwear or underwhen?

    Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln

    Occidere populo et effercio confractus
  • edited March 2015
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  • disposeableh3r0disposeableh3r0 Member Posts: 1,927 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    westmetals wrote: »
    And yet your proposal would either destroy the eight-beam cruiser build or make it the only viable build.

    I disagree that it's the superior thing you can do with such a ship... but that's beside the point. It depends on a lot of other factors, but I actually do not have any of my ships set up as pure single beam ships (unless you count omnis). The 4 cannon 4 turret cruiser you mentioned is an intriguing idea, actually; why do you think you aren't seeing them? Is it possibly due to beam vs. cannon balance issues?

    Not sure, maybe its omnis being available. If you go AP your rear arc can be all omni beams.

    Single cannons were always sort of lack luster and I really only say it start to pop up with the elachi set, and again with the hirogen set

    Then when they changes how turn rate buffs were calculated anything that could make good use out of a cannon build made better use from dbb and omnis
    As a time traveller, Am I supposed to pack underwear or underwhen?

    Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln

    Occidere populo et effercio confractus
  • platewearingbirdplatewearingbird Member Posts: 455 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    Not sure, maybe its omnis being available. If you go AP your rear arc can be all omni beams.

    Single cannons were always sort of lack luster and I really only say it start to pop up with the elachi set, and again with the hirogen set

    Then when they changes how turn rate buffs were calculated anything that could make good use out of a cannon build made better use from dbb and omnis

    You can't go All omni on the aft slots. The most Omni banks you can have on a ship is 2: the Ancient Omni AP beam and the Level 15 R&D beam, save for the KCB which is omnidirectional and considered a "beam" as for firing type, but isn't considered a beam for anything else.

    And really, if you're gonna make full use of all Omni on your aft slots, that'll have to AP energy thanks to the ancient being only available in that type.
  • walshicuswalshicus Member Posts: 1,314 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    You mean having arrays and beam banks would lessen the drain on your weapons power as opposed to all arrays?

    Yeah. Or having a mix of single, double and heavy cannons.
    http://mmo-economics.com - analysing the economic interactions in MMOs.
  • disposeableh3r0disposeableh3r0 Member Posts: 1,927 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    You can't go All omni on the aft slots. The most Omni banks you can have on a ship is 2: the Ancient Omni AP beam and the Level 15 R&D beam, save for the KCB which is omnidirectional and considered a "beam" as for firing type, but isn't considered a beam for anything else.

    And really, if you're gonna make full use of all Omni on your aft slots, that'll have to AP energy thanks to the ancient being only available in that type.

    If you have 2 ancients and upgrade 1 you can equip both.

    So 3 AP Omnis and a kcb.
    As a time traveller, Am I supposed to pack underwear or underwhen?

    Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln

    Occidere populo et effercio confractus
  • disposeableh3r0disposeableh3r0 Member Posts: 1,927 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    walshicus wrote: »
    Yeah. Or having a mix of single, double and heavy cannons.

    Interesting, but could that actually make enough of an improvement to be worth it?

    Maybe that would be a better thing for a like type bonus
    As a time traveller, Am I supposed to pack underwear or underwhen?

    Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln

    Occidere populo et effercio confractus
  • platewearingbirdplatewearingbird Member Posts: 455 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    If you have 2 ancients and upgrade 1 you can equip both.

    So 3 AP Omnis and a kcb.

    I have my doubts on that and I haven't heard of it, got some proof there?
  • eternum2017eternum2017 Member Posts: 7 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    I would like this for one reason.

    I feel like right now running 3 or 4 (all slots) of +energy weapon crit and damage is basically absolutely required to be competitive.

    If they made that bonus inherent it would let tac consoles be more INTERESTING than "if you're not running all vulnerability locators you're foolish".

    Maybe they could reduce the number of tac consoles, get rid of straight +dam ones of all flavors (including "effective +dam like crit severity) in favor of letting people choose for things like +range, +firing arc or situational modifiers like +flanking damage or reducing weapon power use.
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    If you have 2 ancients and upgrade 1 you can equip both.

    So 3 AP Omnis and a kcb.

    If it is letting you do that you should bug report it as its not intended.
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  • disposeableh3r0disposeableh3r0 Member Posts: 1,927 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    I have my doubts on that and I haven't heard of it, got some proof there?

    I'm at work on my phone so no. Hmm look me up on the gateway @disposeable I think the chatacter jojo has that setup.
    As a time traveller, Am I supposed to pack underwear or underwhen?

    Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln

    Occidere populo et effercio confractus
  • disposeableh3r0disposeableh3r0 Member Posts: 1,927 Arc User
    edited March 2015
    I would like this for one reason.

    I feel like right now running 3 or 4 (all slots) of +energy weapon crit and damage is basically absolutely required to be competitive.

    If they made that bonus inherent it would let tac consoles be more INTERESTING than "if you're not running all vulnerability locators you're foolish".

    Maybe they could reduce the number of tac consoles, get rid of straight +dam ones of all flavors (including "effective +dam like crit severity) in favor of letting people choose for things like +range, +firing arc or situational modifiers like +flanking damage or reducing weapon power use.

    So instead of a bonus for simply having arrays you get the tax console bonus, or something like it on the arrays. Hmmm I do like that. Harder to balance tho given how they designed consoles.
    As a time traveller, Am I supposed to pack underwear or underwhen?

    Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln

    Occidere populo et effercio confractus
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