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why no pvp?
whistlerdavid
Member Posts: 420 Arc User
i noticed hardly anyone pvps anyone know why? i have pvped one time it lasted 8 sec i got one shot off before dieing and i am lvl 60 with 57k hull and 20.3k shield i thought my loss was because i am green when it comes to pvp on sto . i am going to try again when i have full fleet/rep gear or am i wasting my time?
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In short, yes you're wasting your time. Try PvPing with your fleet-mates.
Star Trek FANS do not normally play video games where the point is kill or be killed.
PVP is a direct confrontation of kill or be killed. And to not be killed means having uber game skills or a large wallet...or both. Star Trek FANS normally have neither of these. There are exceptions of course, and there may be many, or few, of these types in STO at any given time.
The main body of players however have absolutely NO INTEREST in PVP. They are Star Trek FANS. Not PVP Fans.
Unless another Game Company comes out with a version of pvp that star trek fans can play, and everyone be at the same level in gear, power governors, etc. Star Trek Fans will NEVER do PVP.
I know this is difficult for many people to accept but it is the cold hard truth.
Cryptic will not develop PvP because they already KNOW this to be TRUE.
TLDR: Star Trek FANS do NOT do PvP.
I understand what you mean, but this is not the reason STO has no PvP.
The way the devs have built the PvE material over the years has made balanced PvP impossible without a massive and expensive overhaul to existing material. Ignoring the desire of the vast majority of their players for working PvP allows them to pour more effort into everyone's other desire, being more PvE.
Not overhauling the game's PvP balance frees the devs to more quickly add new ships and equipment without having to test for game balance. It makes for an excellent PvE-only game. Still sad they have to sacrifice PvP to accomplish this.
As regards pvp in STO, the other poster is right in that the STO devs don't care about pvp, they've even been accused on and off of actively trying to kill pvp (which they kind of did with intel ships), my advice if you want to continue trying to pvp (because in the right groups it can be really fun) would be to pick up the "OrganisedPVP" chat channel and if your ship is T5U (or fleet T5U) grab the T5U pvp channel as well (See this thread)
If you were to post your build either here or in the shipyard subforums and mention you want to tune it for pvp I know a lot of current/former/pvp knowledgeable people hang out over there so there is help to be had in that regard.
I do not agree with you.I watched probably all of the TV shows and I will watch new series if they ever come even if they will be as bad as last movie and I like to PVP .
I miss PVP-ing in STO to be honest but being forced to gamble to upgrade my gear is a big NO.
Gambling is against my principles.
I am playing Warthunder now for PVP and I am keeping my account here because this game is reminding me of Star Trek series.If it would had been anything else I would be gone a long time ago.
How can you be so sure about what you said without having access to Cryptic statistics?
I refuse to be content https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwI0u9L4R8U
The only revival of PVP in this game can only be via a massive restriction list or preset vessels with fixed boffs and consoles (similar to some of the missions where you pilot a specific ship). Similar to the approach turbine took with LOTRO, called monster play, where a player chooses a preset role in a battle.
But an expansion on the scale of delta rising and even bigger would be needed to give PVP a purpose in STO.
This would have also potential to be really entertaining for anybody...imagine battle of wolf 359 where some get to be borg probes and the other side in their mirandas and excelsiors need to destroy a borg cube while the probes defend it.
Or battle of chintoca, one half in federation ships the other half in dominion vessels protecting their defense platforms and trying to take out "hero" vessels like the defiant.
Something like that would certainly make me play PVP...but the current team deathmatch bores are just horrible and unbalanced.
Star Trek Online is THE "Main Attraction" at this time, for Star Trek FANS.
Star Trek FANS do not normally play video games where the point is kill or be killed.
PVP is a direct confrontation of kill or be killed. And to not be killed means having uber game skills or a large wallet...or both. Star Trek FANS normally have neither of these. There are exceptions of course, and there may be many, or few, of these types in STO at any given time.
The main body of players however have absolutely NO INTEREST in PVP. They are Star Trek FANS. Not PVP Fans.
Unless another Game Company comes out with a version of pvp that star trek fans can play, and everyone be at the same level in gear, power governors, etc. Star Trek Fans will NEVER do PVP.
I know this is difficult for many people to accept but it is the cold hard truth.
Cryptic will not develop PvP because they already KNOW this to be TRUE.
TLDR: Star Trek FANS do NOT do PvP.
And as to 90% of the content being kill everything: STO is still a game, when Players play the mission content, but this is Player versus Environment. PvE is on a sliding scale, and can be as casual as anyone likes it to be for themselves.
My OP was not to start a flame bake, but to try and look at the Player base and the Game itself, openly and honestly, without any sugar on top.
I did not mean to raise anyone's ire. And playing Devil's Advocate sometimes help get all the dust bunnies out of the corners...so to speak.
Hey, I love Star Trek. I think we all do, to some degree, or are gamers who have found this game and have decided to either minmax at it or just see how much carnage they can leave in their wake, Starfleet be damned. In either case, it doesn't matter, because, in the end, it's simply entertainment meant to be enjoyed or used as you see fit...or until you're banned for life :P
Peace! And Long Life!!
simple as is:
it's because dr killed off what was left from pvp. back in the days (up to like s8/9) we had a great community, many tourneys and some very good competitve fleets in pvp.
and spirit in the community that led to things like pvp-bootcamp.
but due to cryptic promised a lot to come to pvp over years (so did pwe) and delivered nothing they drove most of us away.
with dr it became unplayable because they introduced a whole lotta op TRIBBLE without any counters.
it never was thaaat appealing to a lot of people, at least due to the high learning curve. and we always had the same a**heads that can be found anywhere, but in whole it was a great community with a lot (!) of open-minded and helpful people in.
sry, but u came too late
oh, and btw: don't listen to those stating "star trek does not align with pvp; it's not a pvp-game" and so on. many points i could bring up against those statements, but why bother?
That's not exactly true. Many of the shows (mainly DS9), the movie Star Trek II: Wrath of Khan , Star Trek III: The search for Spock, as well as the new Star Trek movies (JJ Trek) have had the "kill or be killed" theme in them. The Klingons and Romulans in the shows started out as adversaries, and went from one end of the 'friend or foe' meter to the other.
Diplomacy is is the Federation's hat. It's the declared intent of the federation to go out and make friends and allies. Much of the rest of the galaxy takes the 'might makes right' position. Despite what you might think, having more Diplomacy style missions would not make things 'better'. It would make more sense from the Federation perspective, but lets face it...most people are here for shooting stuff with spaceships, and making nice with people gets in the way of that. So what does that leave you with?
Player vs. Something.
Player vs Environment is pretty much the standard. You don't have to be very good at the game and understand the mechanics to sail through practically all the content. It's when you have advanced and elite content that problems start cropping up, where players who have not learned how the game works, and have not moved beyond the spacebar, and/or who have not upgraded their ships and weapons to compensate for the more difficult content.
Player vs. Player now is pretty much left out on a limb. The developers, for whatever reason, have not touched PvP in any way. It's been left to rot. Which is unfortunate.
When this game first started, there was a pretty active PvP environment. This was mainly thanks to the fact that the KDF had no other alternative for leveling. The problem with this situation was that KDF players became much better at PvP thanks to the constant practice and experience, and created a situation where it was rare for Federation teams to win, and as a result drove some early players from PvP. Add to the fact that there were also some very nasty exploits that made PvP a very unpleasant experience.
Another problem that you find in other games with PvP also reared it's head here. PvP eliteism, and the usual trash talk. Some people think that oneshotting someone is fun, and the victim deserves nothing but derision. These people lose sight of the fact this is a game. If people don't have fun, they will take their toys and go elsewhere. This has also damaged PvP.
Now you have all these crazy consoles, powers, traits and such that really make it hard to balance player vs player combat. A new player jumping into PvP will get a VERY rude awakening. They have 0 chance against experienced players who have min maxed their ships. No one wants to be a target, and so the vast majority will stay away keeping the pool of potential pvp'ers very small. There is no balancing mechanism, no leaderboards, no ranking, no PvP advancement. There is no carrot to get players to pvp other than that of getting to shoot other players.
Another factor is one that was mentioned before, and that this is Star Trek. This franchise is around 50 years old, and as a result you have many players who are older that the of standard MMO player. Also many people are here for the Trek, they want to play the episodes and fly the Enterprise, and PvP doesn't fit into that equation.
If Cryptic would get on the ball, and take a serious swing at improving PvP, you would see an upswing in PvP participation (at least in the short term). But given their track record...I don't see that happening.
Star Trek fights were, for the most part, about characters with plot armor, using space magic to win. Lets face it. It's not about how clever they were. It's all about a plot device pulling them out of the plot induced danger.
Take Kirk for example, the guy who cheated on the 'final exam', and won fights by luck or happenstance.
And I am sorry, but I don't see how people who rely on keybinds and macros to fight for them are tactical geniuses. Mind you there are some players who are very good at this game and do some amazing things, but that doesn't mean everyone who engages in PvP is amazing. Just because there is a player behind the ship doesn't make them any better than an NPC necessarily, it just means that there is a better chance at seeing a diatribe in chat. (This isn't a denunciation of PvP'ers so much as an observation)
It's also irrelevant for STO, since there is plenty of kill or be killed in the game.
It just happens to be that STO's PvP is completely underdeveloped and the stuff that was added to the game overall hurt it more than it helped.
So PvP is now not a popular activity. You have imbalanced ships and powers all over the place. Time-To-Kill can be extremely short, particularly if you're new, and that provide sa huge barrier to entry, on top of the barriers created by the more advanced equipment that requires grinding, and some of the best ships are behind pay- or lockbox walls.
Back in the early days, everythnig was still possible. But Cryptic had to focus on something,and they decided early that they needed to bring more story content - which is PVE. And a major part of STO's business model both pre F2P and post-F2P was making money with space ships - and making the newest lockbox ship or the newest C-Store ship a tiny bit better than the one before is a great way to sell more of them.
And from there, they practically put the game on a path where PvP just didn't work quitly. PvP requires a lot more attention than it got, and adding gear, ships and now even powers that are all poorly (or possibly intentionally not) balanced means the stuff that need to be sorted out is huge - and that provides a barrier to development.
2-3 years ago already a Cryptic Dev noted that if they were to rip out PvP entirey and lost the PvP players, it would barey affect the game population. Thankfully, they didn't do that (nor did they intent to), but it unfortunately also means that further investment just is unlikely to pay off.
If someone had a grand monetization model for PvP that would also attract player numbers, we may have a chance for it. But that seems as difficult as squaring a circle...
This is not a pvp game. It is not balanced for it, its not central to the game, and if you are looking for pvp as a main activity, its not a great game for that.
PVP is a combination of who spent the most money on stuff (or has time to farm everything in the whole game), who shoots first (first one to fire is going to win a high % of the time due to disables) and who has the better build/ game mechanics knowledge.
When you go out there against the best players, you face:
- people with their ENTIRE spec tree FULLY FILLED
- people with access to every item in the game, every ship, etc
- people that been playing for years who know every trick for building a ship
- and all the above with zero ethics ... they will happily one-shot new players with tiresome regularity until the new people all give up, then cry about no one wanting to play with them. If you ask them for advice, you get a how to spend $1000 real cash troll build that does not work but costs all that money. Very few are willing to share any real meaningful build secrets or advice that actually works. Very few.
I think this is debatable at best, it's not necessarily true that someone who relies on Keybinds is or isn't a tactical genius but that is the same for those who don't, for example I run keybinds on all my endgame ships, I could cycle those abilities myself but it's more convenient to have the computer do it for me and I have more or less abilities tied to those keybinds depending on the build, for example my cruisers and science ships have 4 core abilities on my keybind, my escort on the other hand has 10 abilities (technically as my TT is doffed it's only 9 but it's on there twice). Personally I wouldn't say this makes me any better or worse at the game than someone running the same builds without the keybinds.
At the same time however there are those who have groups of powers on different keybinds to suit different situations to save time and then there are aux2batt builds that keybind entire builds. I would suggest therefore the level of tactical planning that goes into play as regards keybinds and macros should be measured not by who uses them but how they are used.
STO may have the greatest least acerbic PvP community in all of the MMOs that ever existed or will ever exist but all previous experience with PvPers, especially in games that don't use standardized gear loadouts, has suggested PvP is not the place for me.
The mere fact I believe that PvP should be a game of skill playing and not a game of what you've played and looted generally puts me at odds with the PvP community.
I would argue that the serious pvp players have probably spent more than the average player by a factor of 3 times or more.
Trouble is, there are not enough of them --- its more $$ to sell stuff to the casual folks, since 5 bucks from several thousand people is more bottom line than a hundred bucks from a couple of people.
If they invested in it and attracted people, it would be QUITE profitable, IMHO. But investing in the non casual non fed player has never been seen as profitable... they can't get past the catch 22 of "nothing to buy, no one spends" (for non feds) or "needs work, unplayable' for PVP.
wrong, just because your a star trek fan doesnt mean you want to log in and boringly wack the same AI over and overand never have the opportunity to do anything else, speak for yourself.
The real cold hard truth is the carebears will cry untill pvp is removed completely then thousands of people who have been gearing up to participate will leave too.
If you dont like pvp no big deal dont do it but dont bash the people who want to, i dont see the pvpers on here complaining that there pve content
whats the big deal, if your ship blows up you can come back to life..if theres major balance issues it should be worked on just the same as pve issues, because it IS part of the game whether you like it or not
Casuals don't want to be bothered to learn mechanics, builds, timing and to be a part of a team. They want to be Kirk, they want an easy button.
Devs, well we'll never fully know what goes on behind the scenes. But with all the monetization schemes recently, I think we can conclude that their hands are tied to delivering a quantity of product over a quality product. In short, PvE is easy.
All parties want easy, and that's perfectly fine.
1) With new system of specialization and ships traits game treats any new player as cannon fodder for the ego of those of us that have managed to get high gear, high specialization and have full set of useful ship traits. So no balance what so ever in power between players.
2) Faction are not balanced. Federation have 5 Tier six ships while Rumulan and Klingon have 2.
Kind of hard to believe to day that there was a hardcore PVP action in beginning of this game, with mostly Klingon side kicking Federation.
A test server is supposed to be used to properly test patches before patching anything....
All indications are that either devs don't have a clue what they are doing, or they simply don't care.
And by their own admission, they've even less clue what the previous developer was doing.
A dog would have better chance of catching its tale than PvP ever getting fixed.
I'm a Star Trek Fan and I like to PvP. There were thousands of players enjoying PvP before LoR.
In the early days the intention of end game WAS PvP. The only reason for STF gear in Season 1 & 2 was FOR PvP....
Nice 'No True Scotsman' fallacy.
The PvP-hate is strong in this thread. Though I am curious, why do you all hate on PvP so much when it is basically a non-factor anymore? (IMO at least) Seriously? There's a LOT more issues with the game then bashing on PvP and PvPers nowadays. If this was even a year ago, then I could understand, but with DR hitting last year really gave PvP quite the mortal wound. Don't see why people still need to hate on it at all.
Hate on the actual issues with the game, not on PvP or PvPers.
No one would lose anything and game would get back hundreds paying customers that played PvP.
It's a win-win.
Some also forget that all PvPers also play episodes, PvE and other stuff, but while some RPrs invest in toon races, costumes etc. PvPers spend on ships and gear.
Yeah, it can be unbalanced if a newbie with no knowledge of game mechanics and/or with weak gear comes to face long time players, but that is so simple to fix.
Balanced matchmaking through leaderboard(a LOT of data can be assimilated from Hilbert's leaderboards to start from), through gear, level, ship class(lobi, fleet, c-store), spec level etc.
Also one additional solution is through expanding on private custom games to allow gear/ship, level and class restrictions, so people can join games with/without something they (don't) like.
It takes not a big effort but gain can be good.
Just take a look at good ground maps for PvP/PvE battlezones like Kobali Prime and Dyson, also team PvP maps like from Defend Rh'lhho Station or elachi station from What's Left Behind episode.
Also some space maps with hazards and obstacles could be great for space PvP like Azure Nebula and similar.
There is no valid reason not to do it.
Resources are there, maps are there, mechanics for ground combat are there, space combat mechanics need some balancing to avoid chain stuns from Intel abilities and like I said Matchmaking, PvP specific rewards, even a reputation system(which would only be good if matchmaking is present so new players don't get in matches with veterans)
I accept that for some people it's enough to log in once in 3 months to check out new featured episode, or to casually explore space with their frinds, or to even grind monthly events, but long time players don't get satisfied with ONLY that.
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Determining the battle value of gear means you have solid metrics on how powerful stuff is compared to other stuff. It always raises the question? Why not buff the weak things or nerf the strong things?
And Battle Value gets extremely complicated once synergies come into play.
Each area becomes analyzed for participation, based on the amount people do things they split their workload to increase content in those areas, and monetize them.
In cases like PvP, or something else like ship interiors they have this really bad habit of saying "Well nobody plays this absolutely terriblly designed content so we shouldn't invest in it" instead of realizing people tried it, found it so bad they never did again, and it needs to be redesigned.
Other MMOs have shown you how a majority PvE game and turn PvP into fun and add player retention. The same MMOs have player housing that is wildly successful, so its definitely not the players saying we don't want this, its just cryptic.
Player housing needs a whole new system, insane amount of work.
PvP is so far off of casual friendly someone needs to think about it seriously. You either need to rebalance combat (not happening) or you need a match making system that is pretty complex. You also need scenarios that are more than a bunch of ships shooting at eachother, territory control, capture and holds, defensive/offensive missions (starbases a good start), etc.
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Nothing to do anymore.
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