Frankly, if you don't know the basic mechanics of a game, you should not expect to get through all content. In fact, there are lots of people who get stuck when they face a D'deridex for the first time. We used to see lots of threads from people asking for help there, and the odd one still crops up now and then.
Some people take getting their TRIBBLE handed to them as a sign their build is not up to task. Especially when other people have no problems. Other people complain, insist that their fail builds are sufficient (in spite of it obviously being insufficient and failing), and whine for enemies to be nerfed. :rolleyes:
Oh come on, you're not talking casual you're talking half asleep. NOBODY should be using white gear at level 50. Every mission gives you gear as mission rewards and random drops, at minimum you should be running all greens at Mark level appropriate to your level (random drops) and certainly more than a few blues and purples from mission rewards. Many early missions give out pretty darned good gear that you can replay at later levels to get better Mark versions. You should be for example running the Paratrinic Shield you can get from the Klingon story arc until you can get something better, it's free and one of the toughest shields you can get. And that isn't even touching the exchange or reputation systems, which my level 50 you should be more than able of using to get better gear still. All without any particular grind, and without a dime of Zen spent, just playing the game. There's no reason and no excuse to be running default white gear, at ALL.
You're not talking Normal difficulty at all, you're talking Marshmallow Mode.
I believe this is less about gear and more about understanding mechanics.
If you stop and do the math to compare whites to blues, the difference is not actually that great, due to modifiers being applied to the base value (known in STO jargon as "strength bonus"). Even if you get full blue gear and some purple drops, if you don't get the in-game mechanics hands down, the experience will be quite similar.
A few examples: shield distribution; power distribution; power drain; torpedoes being effective against bare hull.
I've seen many casual players failing to get the above to work, even after being told and taught. They just don't remember everything, not because they're lazy or stupid (could be the case, too), but because space combat is complex. The learning curve for the casual can be steep. They forget to hit the arrow keys for shield distribution, or don't realize when one of the shield facings are down and a torpedo is coming their way. Or they usually pump every bit of power in weapons and ignore the rest, OR power up shields and wonder why they're doing pitiful damage. Smashing torpedoes against shielded targets is pretty common with casuals due to the autofire mechanic: they hardly "watch" when enemies' shields go down.
Of course, they could get most of the above to work "automagically" by setting the spacebar keybind, but that process alone can be a struggle for many people. I've often came across players that, when trying to improve their gameplay and told about setting keybinds, they just give up setting it up because it's complex. This is where the "casual" level is mostly, in my opinion. Below average.
Now consider that such group get all of the above down and then some. They would be considered "average". That level should be enough to finish every bit of solo PvE content in this game. Still, Vaadwaur has mechanics that are unreasonably stronger than other NPC groups, and Undine has some problems, too.
Bottom line: I believe that Vaadwaur and a couple other NPC groups that are too strong compared to other enemy groups should be more or less in line with each other.
Yes, I have Polarize Hull, and it doesn't do diddly against the constriction anchors. Tractor beams? Yes. Constriction anchors? Hell no. Nor the scout's version of the same effect. That swirly rainbow beam of STOP RIGHT THERE does exactly that and I'm screwed unless I can destroy the source (in time). Ah, but can I get a torp in-line to blow up said constriction anchor? NO. So here come the blue blips, my shields drop, my hull breaches, and I'm toast.
Hm, my mistake on PH. I switched away from cannons when Dyson hit because they'd spawn things behind you. A FAW beamboat has no trouble hitting the anchors. You'll never even notice them, in fact.
Regardless, I flew my Chimera with an LtCdr Eng, and you really shouldn't be getting wasted in one barrage with AtSIF and EPtS going. It's a tough little ship that I used to tank Gateways back in pre-DR ISE.
Now consider that such group get all of the above down and then some. They would be considered "average". That level should be enough to finish every bit of solo PvE content in this game.
I disagree.
Our performance is gear * piloting skill * build. I agree that gear isn't the problem. Mk XI blues is fine for everything. What you've described is only the skill portion.
As we progress in any PvE game, the level of challenge presented should increase. In STO, that challenge must be met by a combination of gear, piloting skill, and build. Having an "average" level of skill with "average" gear is insufficient if the build is "below average".
In many games, we are given increasing amounts of tools to meet that challenge. In STO, the ships we fly in level 1 have a small fraction of the bridge officer stations of a level 50 ship. In Borderlands, we go from no action skill to having an action skill to a multitude of things that affect that skill or passives. In Guild Wars 2 we unlock additional ability slots, and a wider array of abilities.
Our builds become more complex and powerful as we level. Fail to grasp the increased complexity, and we should rightly fail to do that content.
Yes, I have Polarize Hull, and it doesn't do diddly against the constriction anchors.
-- I have rarely used PH. It helps cut incoming damage, but its poorish in most pve. Use TBR. It will kill the anchor, it fires a 360 kinetic beam at them and will save you.
Do I fly in guns blazing to hit 'em fast and hard, keep moving, duck and move, dodge the blue blips, etc.? Yes, IF those damned anchors don't catch me from behind/the side.
- flying in guns blazing isnt always the best thing to do vs an enemy that uses a fair # of mines and the anchors and other things. Maybe staying back is wise here.
There shouldn't be THAT big of a difference.
-- Most of the difference is your failure to counter the new strategy. Their actual health and difficulty is not that much higher than it "should" be once you learn to fight them.
Should I have to run a beamboat tank to complete Normal storyline content? No.
-- and you don't. I did DR in a raider with cannons on one toon. But one thing you have to accept is that if you fly a glass cannon, sometimes you break. Usually, you kill it before it can hurt you, but sometimes, the NPC wins.
Should I have to buy a T6 to complete Normal storyline content? No.
-- And you don't. Some t5u are better than some t6 anyway. The t6s that lack surgical strikes are not much better than your ship, maybe a little, but insignificant. Again, you need to adjust something to handle a new type of enemy, and then they will be easy again and you will be going "oh, I see".
There's a severe imbalance to the game when the NPCs drastically increase in power from one level to the next and the best end-all-be-all formerly high-end gear doesn't even scratch the paint.
-- if you are not hurting them, that is another story. So far it sounds like you don't survive long enough to make a kill. You should just melt them if you can avoid being blasted in the process... they are only a little tougher than anything else.
And for those saying I have to adapt, upgrade, PAY TO WIN, I have to do one specific tactic, use one specific set/build/ship/weapon/etc. to play Delta, well you just made my point. If the devs intentionally designed virtually all of DR to only be completed by one style of play when the ENTIRE REST OF THE GAME is able to be done with many different styles, it's called PIGEONHOLING.
-- Adaptation is required. Upgrades are useful but optional -- your weapons will hit harder, and it helps big time, but if you enjoy long drawn out fights and refuse to farm dil, then you can make do with XIIs. Pay to win? You already did... you should have enough stuff already to win. You don't need t spend a cent... I have not bought anything since DR and I have 4 t6 ships from farming (free breen, EC paid for benthan, and faeht (farmed dil), and maha (farmed dil, MU event mostly here). Granted I have a fleet of alts to help make dil so I can farm it when I want it, but I did not pay a cent. As for pigeonholes... the game is dps oriented... if you can do dps, you can play the game. How you do the dps does not matter, and there is a lot of flexibility to get there.... any class in any ship can do it, tac in the best ships have an easier time of it, but we can all get there. The faeht warbird with 5 tac consoles, OSS, surgical strikes, etc can hit 30k per beam hit and waporize the stuff. But again, I did the content in a variety of ships including a bird of prey, a vet ship (like your chimera), a carrier, and a science ship, to name a few. I didn't get the high end ships until later.
You don't know that I have more than one character that's 50+ (2 Fed Eng, 1 Fed Tac, 2 Fed Sci, & 1 Rom Tac) with only one currently test-driving Delta (my Fed Tac). Now somehow they all managed to keep up with the Joneses all this time...'til now. I'm not a noob, my characters aren't wimps, and my gear's not TRIBBLE.
--- the best gear in the game won't cut it if you are sitting in a pattern of tricobalt mines going derp. Which is what happens when you run up close to vaaudwar ships. Stay the heck back away from them, use gw or TBR to kill their mines/missiles/anchors/etc. If you just work on countering their attacks, you can beat them with a half decent ship using half decent gear. Its all about using different tactics, not your build, how much money you spent, or anything else.
Maybe they don't have some skill points into hold resistances?
All my characters do (6 points on average) and I'm able to move out of those holds enough just using regular movement or Evasive Maneuvers as needed. Additionally, the pilot Specialization has that useful temporary resistance to holds after using Evasive Maneuvers, which makes it almost entirely a non-issue. Rock and Roll also helps.
Do note I had played that mission using a T5U Tactical Odyssey (ungodly slow), T5U Multi-Vector escort (not the fleet version), and in a T5U Vesta, since I'm not a lifer and was saving up to buy the Delta Pack. The only thing I ever upgraded was all my weapons to MkXIII minimum at that time (beams and/or torpedoes).
It's just a matter of knowing when to pop certain skills like FaW (normally useless on a Torpedo Sci boat, but useful in that mission in order to target all those lovely anchors if they're out of range of your GravWells).
Also, as a Tac, balancing the line between life and death with Go Down Fighting helps as well.
You could use a Doff-Boosted BO as well to try and further brute force your way through the shields of a specific target as well.
True, T6s make things a lot easier; Guardian can shield tank with near impunity with its console + a good defensive shield (MACO, Dyson, Aegis), Eclipse can just OsS and FaWIII forever, and Reciprocity from the Phantom cuts the need to double up on Tac/Intel skills, but it is still manageable with a little investment into the Pilot specialization (which is free) and into some of those otherwise neglected skills like Inertial Dampeners (Read its description; it mitigates some of what you're dealing with when it comes to the Vaadwaur). No T6 required.
Anyway, if you still can't beat the mission; skip it and work up your gear and Pilot Specialization enough so you can get the beneficial boosts that will help save your ship. Then go back and respec some points into Inertial Dampeners if you haven't already. And while you're at it, respec some points into Subsystem Repairs as well (otherwise, you'll only have yourself to blame when any of your subsystems goes down thanks to multiple Tricos while ET1 or an Emergency Power is on Cooldown).
Our performance is gear * piloting skill * build. I agree that gear isn't the problem. Mk XI blues is fine for everything. What you've described is only the skill portion.
I usually tend to relate "gear" and "build" a little too close, and I see what you mean.
My Science Captain hit level 50 and I geared him up to start the DR content. Namely, gave him a Dyson shield and Warp Core, and outfitted a Vesta that I played like a DPS cruiser (all beams, all power to weapons, TT+FAW+ATB, etc -- a vastly known build). The rest of gear was stock, blue at most. It did around 5~6K DPS. I just wanted to brainlessly play through all DR missions. All ground content was fine (I am better at ground combat). But I struggled in a few space missions. Namely the ones with the auto-targeting bombs, and the battleships with the tricobalt blue spam. In one instance, I outran the first salvo with Evasive Maneuvers just to be targeted again after Evasive ran out. With two Neutroniums equipped, a couple bombs that managed to hit took my hull to half through full shields. In one unlucky instance, about 4~5 attacks hit, and it was a kill. Is anything that ordinary (battleships are ordinary) be able to do that much damage in Normal content?
Similar experience with the auto-targeting missile/bomb thing, at least it's only in a single mission. Outrun one, get hit by the next, half hull down through full shields. Hazard Emitters can not heal enough to save you from a third strike. I got defeated a couple of times from it, and also from a combination of it with the blue spam. There was little I could do with my skills on cooldown. I'd think that a "planetary defense" attack in a mission that's not even a "final boss" battle is a little overkill.
The difference of those two components to everything else is abysmal. In my experience, aside from those two abilities, everything else was completely fine and in line with other the NPC groups. Oddly, I never had issues with the Anchors, perhaps because I slot 6 bars of Inertial Dampeners on all my characters. I hate being slowed down or immobilized in space combat.
Comments
I believe this is less about gear and more about understanding mechanics.
If you stop and do the math to compare whites to blues, the difference is not actually that great, due to modifiers being applied to the base value (known in STO jargon as "strength bonus"). Even if you get full blue gear and some purple drops, if you don't get the in-game mechanics hands down, the experience will be quite similar.
A few examples: shield distribution; power distribution; power drain; torpedoes being effective against bare hull.
I've seen many casual players failing to get the above to work, even after being told and taught. They just don't remember everything, not because they're lazy or stupid (could be the case, too), but because space combat is complex. The learning curve for the casual can be steep. They forget to hit the arrow keys for shield distribution, or don't realize when one of the shield facings are down and a torpedo is coming their way. Or they usually pump every bit of power in weapons and ignore the rest, OR power up shields and wonder why they're doing pitiful damage. Smashing torpedoes against shielded targets is pretty common with casuals due to the autofire mechanic: they hardly "watch" when enemies' shields go down.
Of course, they could get most of the above to work "automagically" by setting the spacebar keybind, but that process alone can be a struggle for many people. I've often came across players that, when trying to improve their gameplay and told about setting keybinds, they just give up setting it up because it's complex. This is where the "casual" level is mostly, in my opinion. Below average.
Now consider that such group get all of the above down and then some. They would be considered "average". That level should be enough to finish every bit of solo PvE content in this game. Still, Vaadwaur has mechanics that are unreasonably stronger than other NPC groups, and Undine has some problems, too.
Bottom line: I believe that Vaadwaur and a couple other NPC groups that are too strong compared to other enemy groups should be more or less in line with each other.
STO Screenshot Archive
Hm, my mistake on PH. I switched away from cannons when Dyson hit because they'd spawn things behind you. A FAW beamboat has no trouble hitting the anchors. You'll never even notice them, in fact.
Regardless, I flew my Chimera with an LtCdr Eng, and you really shouldn't be getting wasted in one barrage with AtSIF and EPtS going. It's a tough little ship that I used to tank Gateways back in pre-DR ISE.
I disagree.
Our performance is gear * piloting skill * build. I agree that gear isn't the problem. Mk XI blues is fine for everything. What you've described is only the skill portion.
As we progress in any PvE game, the level of challenge presented should increase. In STO, that challenge must be met by a combination of gear, piloting skill, and build. Having an "average" level of skill with "average" gear is insufficient if the build is "below average".
In many games, we are given increasing amounts of tools to meet that challenge. In STO, the ships we fly in level 1 have a small fraction of the bridge officer stations of a level 50 ship. In Borderlands, we go from no action skill to having an action skill to a multitude of things that affect that skill or passives. In Guild Wars 2 we unlock additional ability slots, and a wider array of abilities.
Our builds become more complex and powerful as we level. Fail to grasp the increased complexity, and we should rightly fail to do that content.
-- I have rarely used PH. It helps cut incoming damage, but its poorish in most pve. Use TBR. It will kill the anchor, it fires a 360 kinetic beam at them and will save you.
Do I fly in guns blazing to hit 'em fast and hard, keep moving, duck and move, dodge the blue blips, etc.? Yes, IF those damned anchors don't catch me from behind/the side.
- flying in guns blazing isnt always the best thing to do vs an enemy that uses a fair # of mines and the anchors and other things. Maybe staying back is wise here.
There shouldn't be THAT big of a difference.
-- Most of the difference is your failure to counter the new strategy. Their actual health and difficulty is not that much higher than it "should" be once you learn to fight them.
Should I have to run a beamboat tank to complete Normal storyline content? No.
-- and you don't. I did DR in a raider with cannons on one toon. But one thing you have to accept is that if you fly a glass cannon, sometimes you break. Usually, you kill it before it can hurt you, but sometimes, the NPC wins.
Should I have to buy a T6 to complete Normal storyline content? No.
-- And you don't. Some t5u are better than some t6 anyway. The t6s that lack surgical strikes are not much better than your ship, maybe a little, but insignificant. Again, you need to adjust something to handle a new type of enemy, and then they will be easy again and you will be going "oh, I see".
There's a severe imbalance to the game when the NPCs drastically increase in power from one level to the next and the best end-all-be-all formerly high-end gear doesn't even scratch the paint.
-- if you are not hurting them, that is another story. So far it sounds like you don't survive long enough to make a kill. You should just melt them if you can avoid being blasted in the process... they are only a little tougher than anything else.
And for those saying I have to adapt, upgrade, PAY TO WIN, I have to do one specific tactic, use one specific set/build/ship/weapon/etc. to play Delta, well you just made my point. If the devs intentionally designed virtually all of DR to only be completed by one style of play when the ENTIRE REST OF THE GAME is able to be done with many different styles, it's called PIGEONHOLING.
-- Adaptation is required. Upgrades are useful but optional -- your weapons will hit harder, and it helps big time, but if you enjoy long drawn out fights and refuse to farm dil, then you can make do with XIIs. Pay to win? You already did... you should have enough stuff already to win. You don't need t spend a cent... I have not bought anything since DR and I have 4 t6 ships from farming (free breen, EC paid for benthan, and faeht (farmed dil), and maha (farmed dil, MU event mostly here). Granted I have a fleet of alts to help make dil so I can farm it when I want it, but I did not pay a cent. As for pigeonholes... the game is dps oriented... if you can do dps, you can play the game. How you do the dps does not matter, and there is a lot of flexibility to get there.... any class in any ship can do it, tac in the best ships have an easier time of it, but we can all get there. The faeht warbird with 5 tac consoles, OSS, surgical strikes, etc can hit 30k per beam hit and waporize the stuff. But again, I did the content in a variety of ships including a bird of prey, a vet ship (like your chimera), a carrier, and a science ship, to name a few. I didn't get the high end ships until later.
You don't know that I have more than one character that's 50+ (2 Fed Eng, 1 Fed Tac, 2 Fed Sci, & 1 Rom Tac) with only one currently test-driving Delta (my Fed Tac). Now somehow they all managed to keep up with the Joneses all this time...'til now. I'm not a noob, my characters aren't wimps, and my gear's not TRIBBLE.
--- the best gear in the game won't cut it if you are sitting in a pattern of tricobalt mines going derp. Which is what happens when you run up close to vaaudwar ships. Stay the heck back away from them, use gw or TBR to kill their mines/missiles/anchors/etc. If you just work on countering their attacks, you can beat them with a half decent ship using half decent gear. Its all about using different tactics, not your build, how much money you spent, or anything else.
All my characters do (6 points on average) and I'm able to move out of those holds enough just using regular movement or Evasive Maneuvers as needed. Additionally, the pilot Specialization has that useful temporary resistance to holds after using Evasive Maneuvers, which makes it almost entirely a non-issue. Rock and Roll also helps.
Do note I had played that mission using a T5U Tactical Odyssey (ungodly slow), T5U Multi-Vector escort (not the fleet version), and in a T5U Vesta, since I'm not a lifer and was saving up to buy the Delta Pack. The only thing I ever upgraded was all my weapons to MkXIII minimum at that time (beams and/or torpedoes).
It's just a matter of knowing when to pop certain skills like FaW (normally useless on a Torpedo Sci boat, but useful in that mission in order to target all those lovely anchors if they're out of range of your GravWells).
Also, as a Tac, balancing the line between life and death with Go Down Fighting helps as well.
You could use a Doff-Boosted BO as well to try and further brute force your way through the shields of a specific target as well.
True, T6s make things a lot easier; Guardian can shield tank with near impunity with its console + a good defensive shield (MACO, Dyson, Aegis), Eclipse can just OsS and FaWIII forever, and Reciprocity from the Phantom cuts the need to double up on Tac/Intel skills, but it is still manageable with a little investment into the Pilot specialization (which is free) and into some of those otherwise neglected skills like Inertial Dampeners (Read its description; it mitigates some of what you're dealing with when it comes to the Vaadwaur). No T6 required.
Anyway, if you still can't beat the mission; skip it and work up your gear and Pilot Specialization enough so you can get the beneficial boosts that will help save your ship. Then go back and respec some points into Inertial Dampeners if you haven't already. And while you're at it, respec some points into Subsystem Repairs as well (otherwise, you'll only have yourself to blame when any of your subsystems goes down thanks to multiple Tricos while ET1 or an Emergency Power is on Cooldown).
I usually tend to relate "gear" and "build" a little too close, and I see what you mean.
My Science Captain hit level 50 and I geared him up to start the DR content. Namely, gave him a Dyson shield and Warp Core, and outfitted a Vesta that I played like a DPS cruiser (all beams, all power to weapons, TT+FAW+ATB, etc -- a vastly known build). The rest of gear was stock, blue at most. It did around 5~6K DPS. I just wanted to brainlessly play through all DR missions. All ground content was fine (I am better at ground combat). But I struggled in a few space missions. Namely the ones with the auto-targeting bombs, and the battleships with the tricobalt blue spam. In one instance, I outran the first salvo with Evasive Maneuvers just to be targeted again after Evasive ran out. With two Neutroniums equipped, a couple bombs that managed to hit took my hull to half through full shields. In one unlucky instance, about 4~5 attacks hit, and it was a kill. Is anything that ordinary (battleships are ordinary) be able to do that much damage in Normal content?
Similar experience with the auto-targeting missile/bomb thing, at least it's only in a single mission. Outrun one, get hit by the next, half hull down through full shields. Hazard Emitters can not heal enough to save you from a third strike. I got defeated a couple of times from it, and also from a combination of it with the blue spam. There was little I could do with my skills on cooldown. I'd think that a "planetary defense" attack in a mission that's not even a "final boss" battle is a little overkill.
The difference of those two components to everything else is abysmal. In my experience, aside from those two abilities, everything else was completely fine and in line with other the NPC groups. Oddly, I never had issues with the Anchors, perhaps because I slot 6 bars of Inertial Dampeners on all my characters. I hate being slowed down or immobilized in space combat.
STO Screenshot Archive
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