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There are no new PVP maps because...
illcadia
Member Posts: 1,412 Bug Hunter
The devs don't know how to make them. True facts, but there's been so much turnover since the game launched and those initial maps were made that none of the staff currently working on STO actually know how to make new PVP maps.
A while ago I talked extensively with one of the developers about this, and it basically came down to there being a significant amount of custom legacy code present on the existing PVP maps for things like 'random spawns', 'auto-teaming', 'leaderboards', 'scorekeeping' that can't be copied and plugged into a new map.
The reason it is apparently so impossible to make new PVP maps is because the Devs would have to reverse engineer this legacy code- which I gather is totally unlabeled and they have zero documentation for- and create an entirely new system to track all the things that the existing maps track, then hook it up, test it, actually be arsed to make new maps, and put it in the game.
All that takes time, effort, and skills the devs don't have, and can't bring to bear without a significant amount of resources, which we've previously been promised would be aimed at PVP "In season 8"
That's pretty far past us, and there's still no new maps. It should- should be trivial for Taco to whip up a new space or ground map, hook up the PVP code from the existing maps, and iterate it until it works.
But I've been informed by the developer I talked to, whom I take as a very reliable source, that this is impossible to actually do.
The bottom line is that the devs don't remember how to make new PVP maps, can't copy the code from the old ones, and don't have the resources to write new code or adapt code from any of the PVE missions to make new maps.
I know a lot of people were still holding out hope that maybe someone might spend an hour hooking up an empty Azure Nebula as a new capture and hold map or something...
Sorry, but it's not gonna happen. They literally do not know how to do that.
A while ago I talked extensively with one of the developers about this, and it basically came down to there being a significant amount of custom legacy code present on the existing PVP maps for things like 'random spawns', 'auto-teaming', 'leaderboards', 'scorekeeping' that can't be copied and plugged into a new map.
The reason it is apparently so impossible to make new PVP maps is because the Devs would have to reverse engineer this legacy code- which I gather is totally unlabeled and they have zero documentation for- and create an entirely new system to track all the things that the existing maps track, then hook it up, test it, actually be arsed to make new maps, and put it in the game.
All that takes time, effort, and skills the devs don't have, and can't bring to bear without a significant amount of resources, which we've previously been promised would be aimed at PVP "In season 8"
That's pretty far past us, and there's still no new maps. It should- should be trivial for Taco to whip up a new space or ground map, hook up the PVP code from the existing maps, and iterate it until it works.
But I've been informed by the developer I talked to, whom I take as a very reliable source, that this is impossible to actually do.
The bottom line is that the devs don't remember how to make new PVP maps, can't copy the code from the old ones, and don't have the resources to write new code or adapt code from any of the PVE missions to make new maps.
I know a lot of people were still holding out hope that maybe someone might spend an hour hooking up an empty Azure Nebula as a new capture and hold map or something...
Sorry, but it's not gonna happen. They literally do not know how to do that.
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but honestly, maps dont really mater that much, as long as there is a single map for which a player vs player battle can take place, thats enough.
there only real solution is to tap neverwinter, that from what ive heard has a more modern and functional pvp system, even leader board based matchmaking if i heard right. they need to just put the effort into porting that over. if they did that, and actually sat down and rebalanced EVERY ability, like hawk intended before he gave up on this cluster and gtfo, playing again, spending the money needed for upgrades, and the specialization grind might seem almost worth doing.
... i don't care, it's unacceptable! even more when looking at cryptics history with pvp!...
they better get their sh** sorted lulz. oops, too late already. all gone :mad:...
Shoddy does not even describe the level of negligent incompetence.
But then when you consider the stubbornness of said TRIBBLE@^ who wants dinos with laser on their heads... little surprise here. Slap a clown outfit on him already.
Ok there are no new maps but the problem is they simply pooped on pvp so they have time to change the game.
And I have to wonder if that sort of thing is still happening. While someone like Hawk probably left good documentation for their work, it's entirely plausible that many of the other devs who left didn't. So there's a whole rickety tower of undocumented code that makes up what we currently use for PVP. There's items they don't know how to fix, there's powers that changing will break so many interactions the only alternative they have is to just leave them as is.
Everyone's always focused on the balancing stuff, but we've shown as a community that we can figure out a new balance. Even with all the cheese, even with all the constant unresistable disables or other powers behaving badly that almost never see any updates, there's a new balance of sorts and people are still pvping and still having fun, even if the community is smaller.
Given how much they've said that there's no time for PVP, I really think something simple and straightforward like some new PVP maps, a new capture and hold map for example, would go a long way to soothing the community. Because as far as we all know there will never be the PVP update we were promised was coming "In season 8". But rationally new maps should be workable.
Except as we learned from talking with the devs, they don't know how to hook new maps up even if they existed. Not a single clue.
And honestly that's really worrying for the future, because if this is something they don't know how to do and don't have the resources to do- something as simple as hooking up maps for pvp...
Some people want 'pvp only gear'- we've seen that none of the pvp mods from crafting work, or they're on the wrong items or whatever, and you think that pvp only gear is possible?
For me, I'd like them to start with something simple. Something they could do right now if they spent five minutes on it. That's maps. I know most people end up flying up to the top, but even so, it gets really boring looking at the same backgrounds, the same structures and the like on capnhold. It'd be nice to have some variation, and I think it should be possible for them to do... if they weren't totally incapable of it due to things like not knowing how the code works and being totally incompetent.
how is that going to help? Sourcesafe (and many similar, and better products) do is log versions of a file so you can go back in time to look at changes made. If the changes do not make any sense because the reader has no clue what the code is supposed to be doing, it is worthless.
Basic documentation is a given, though self documenting code is even better. Comments can say what the code does, and how, and still be way off base after a few changes are made, and a wrong comment can lead to more frustration than no comments at all.
And handover assumes time and willingness to do so. Ive been at places I would not have given the time of day to anyone -- toxic environments etc. Usually I would help all I can, but there are some people... ya know?
We don't know the situation on any of it. Presumably they do have source code check-in software and comments. And it could still be a mammoth task to unravel it... stuff happens, esp when people get in a hurry, a mess gets made.
new maps will not help at this point, people are not quitting pvp because the maps are old, they are quitting cause of massive power creep and intel powers being abused, so a new map will not solve that issue.
Well looking at the state of the game, their decisions not to do anything over the 5 year period but quadruple the issues has led us to this point.
When last did I even read something related to re-balancing, something that 95% of the players on the forum have complained about.
In my country the analogy is that of an Ostrich. An Ostrich sticks its head in the ground, so as not to have to look at the lion approaching, thinking that if cannot see the lion, the lion will not harm it. The developers are treating their customers like the lion.
We need a map rotation for the Ker'rat System. Not different Systems, which would divide the playerbase - just changing environments. I'll work, you'll see. Was a pretty good concept in MW2:Mercenaries. If you manage to stick in different environmental factors which change the terrain its terrific. If you find the time
there are no new pvp maps because nobody play pvp...
how would cryptic make money from new pvp maps?
Correction needed nobody plays pvp anymore. And no pvp maps aren't supposed to be something this game needs to create another dilthium sink for. I can see it now pvp q's with new maps or modes. 500 dilthium just to q if you change maps, toons, or get dc'd no refunds.
Obviously, imho, maps would make a much bigger difference for the Ground PvP folks. Cause there's that whole FPS/TPS thing out there with...yeah...different maps. It's just, imho, that doesn't really translate into much when it comes to Space Arena maps.
Space Scenario on the other hand, yeah - where the map gives you a reason to be in a certain area of the map...then different maps comes into play. Which is why I always wanted not only more Space Scenario maps...but even more Space Scenario scenarios.
Think about all the various gametypes out there in FPS/TPS/RTS and even other MMO games...
Queue Space Arena to enjoy ignoring that pesky red window.
Queue Space Scenario to enjoy a random selection from a variety of game types.
And well, even for the Ground folks...more Scenarios would mean more...eh?
Sure, a lot of the Devs jumped in way after launch, but if you're a game developer, you should know how the bloody thing works.
I sincerely hope that if/when STO finally closes it's doors, some of the Devs will come out and give candid interviews about how certain decisions were made (or not made).
This.
Honestly, PvP needs to be revamped from the ground up.
They've made DarkFrontiers cry, the situation is so bad.:(
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You guys have been saying new maps won't help since season 2.
I'm saying that the team who makes maps, ie: the art assets team, is completely and totally separate from the team that makes PVP items, balances gear, and does the stuff you want.
There's literally no reason why we couldn't have both, and hooking up some new scenario maps would be a great way to at least show the community that you aren't lying whenever you say you really do care about PVP but don't have the resources to rebalance everything.
they think we pvp. means we don't pve lmao.... as not every pvp'er is a looong-time pve pro lulz. they won't ever get it, because: they don't pvp. the paradox of life :rolleyes::D...
It doesn't actually track any of the normal devs anymore. I've checked- they're posting. If I had to guess it's so they can avoid being dogpiled by people whenever they show attention to a thread, but at the same time, it's kind of a swarmy move given their past track record.
Might have to make a dev tracker google doc or something that people can contribute to so we can keep track of them ourselves.
You might want to check the actual search query at the top of the post list when using the tracker.
Some names have been deleted, but the only regular poster to vanish from that list is tacofangs. Bort and all the others (let's be honest Bort is the last interesting dev concerning PvP) are still there.
Yeah, I know that it lists a bunch of them- but like there was a post from Bort on friday and I compared the times with the dev tracker and it wasn't there at all. he posted a number of replies in a thread and it never showed up. So a little confused what's going on there.
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you dont reverse engineer when you have the code, you reverse engineer when you only have the binaries. If you have the code, you just read the code, period. We are not talking about a 30years old COBOL system for the love of god, no more stupid excuses for not doing a new pvp map. I have to work with older code and 0 documentation on daily basics, is just annoying and painfully boring, but is far from be an impossible task....
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I'm trying to get him to stop slacking off in Rift and get to 65 so he can PvP there, its pretty fun.
Completed Starbase, Embassy, Mine, Spire and No Win Scenario
Nothing to do anymore.
http://dtfleet.com/
Visit our Youtube channel
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