Attack Pattern Expertise Shield Issues

virusdancer

w/ MACO Shield

15:01:18:07:32:23.0::Hunter Escort,C[705355 Space_Hirogen_Escort],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Tetryon Array,Pn.Ianv3x1,Shield,,-586.373,-524.954
15:01:18:07:32:23.0::Hunter Escort,C[705355 Space_Hirogen_Escort],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Tetryon Array,Pn.Ianv3x1,Shield,,-63.2264,-36.4941
15:01:18:07:32:23.0::Hunter Escort,C[705355 Space_Hirogen_Escort],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Tetryon Array,Pn.Ianv3x1,Tetryon,,0,972.714

w/ Solanae Shield

15:01:18:07:36:00.1::Kazon Cruiser,C[531434 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Phaser Array,Pn.Ddlvnl,Shield,,-115.923,-108.45
15:01:18:07:36:00.1::Kazon Cruiser,C[531434 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Phaser Array,Pn.Ddlvnl,Shield,,-13.0619,-7.53928
15:01:18:07:36:00.1::Kazon Cruiser,C[531434 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Phaser Array,Pn.Ddlvnl,Phaser,,4.76837e-007,200.952

w/ Breen Shield

15:01:18:07:41:55.8::Kazon Cruiser,C[5453 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Phaser Array,Pn.Ddlvnl,Shield,,-171.296,-137.016
15:01:18:07:41:55.8::Kazon Cruiser,C[5453 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Phaser Array,Pn.Ddlvnl,Shield,,-12.4938,-7.21138
15:01:18:07:41:55.8::Kazon Cruiser,C[5453 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Phaser Array,Pn.Ddlvnl,Phaser,,0,249.876

Switch over to a Benthan Assault, same build (has the additional BOFF ability - but everything else the same)...

w/ MACO Shield

15:01:18:07:51:41.8::Kazon Cruiser,C[674783 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Phaser Array,Pn.Ddlvnl,Shield,,-155.236,-142.581
15:01:18:07:51:41.8::Kazon Cruiser,C[674783 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Phaser Array,Pn.Ddlvnl,Phaser,,9.91202,264.195
15:01:18:07:51:42.9::Kazon Cruiser,C[674783 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Phaser Array,Pn.Ddlvnl,Shield,,-138.37,-127.09
15:01:18:07:51:42.9::Kazon Cruiser,C[674783 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Phaser Array,Pn.Ddlvnl,Phaser,,6.68892,231.773
15:01:18:07:51:43.1::Kazon Cruiser,C[674783 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Phaser Array,Pn.Ddlvnl,Shield,,-154.879,-142.253
15:01:18:07:51:43.1::Kazon Cruiser,C[674783 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Phaser Array,Pn.Ddlvnl,Phaser,,7.487,259.426

With the Apex Heavy Battle Cruiser, there are three lines for each of the hits.

Shield
Shield
Hull

Where there are two hits to shields and no damage done to hull.

With the Benthan Assault Cruiser, there are the standard two lines for each of the hits.

Shield
Hull

It's the standard hit that you'd expect to find in the combatlog, shield line and hull line.

So if you hit up some Advanced/Elite content instead of just the wee guys in a Normal Argala with the Apex Heavy Battle Cruiser...and...shield capacity just disappears.

15:01:18:05:29:07.1::Sphere,C[164 Space_Borg_Cruiser_Raidisode],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Plasma Torpedo,Pn.Rm7fzt,Shield,,-1777.21,-8220.36
15:01:18:05:29:07.1::Sphere,C[164 Space_Borg_Cruiser_Raidisode],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Plasma Torpedo,Pn.Rm7fzt,Shield,,-1070.08,-571.469
15:01:18:05:29:07.1::Sphere,C[164 Space_Borg_Cruiser_Raidisode],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Plasma Torpedo,Pn.Rm7fzt,Shield,,-365.604,-195.163
15:01:18:05:29:07.1::Sphere,C[164 Space_Borg_Cruiser_Raidisode],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Plasma Torpedo,Pn.Rm7fzt,Kinetic,,0,16462.7
15:01:18:05:29:07.1::Sphere,C[164 Space_Borg_Cruiser_Raidisode],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Plasma Torpedo,Pn.Rm7fzt,Plasma,,0,365.604

You don't take any hull damage until shields are gone, but it won't take long for shields to go. Then bam, you're taking hull damage until you manage a shield heal - then no more hull damage...until the shields are gone again. Over and over.

virusdancer

Somebody asked about this in another thread and I realized I gave a better report there than I did here...so I'm going to quote it here.

Here are the lines from a Plasma Torp hit that applied a Plasma DoT in ISA while in the Apex...

15:01:18:05:29:07.1::Sphere,C[164 Space_Borg_Cruiser_Raidisode],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Plasma Torpedo,Pn.Rm7fzt,Shield,,-1777.21,-8220.36
15:01:18:05:29:07.1::Sphere,C[164 Space_Borg_Cruiser_Raidisode],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Plasma Torpedo,Pn.Rm7fzt,Shield,,-1070.08,-571.469
15:01:18:05:29:07.1::Sphere,C[164 Space_Borg_Cruiser_Raidisode],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Plasma Torpedo,Pn.Rm7fzt,Kinetic,,0,16462.7
15:01:18:05:29:07.1::Sphere,C[164 Space_Borg_Cruiser_Raidisode],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Plasma Torpedo,Pn.Rm7fzt,Shield,,-365.604,-195.163
15:01:18:05:29:07.1::Sphere,C[164 Space_Borg_Cruiser_Raidisode],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Plasma Torpedo,Pn.Rm7fzt,Plasma,,0,365.604

Here's an example of another hit (while in a Benthan instead of the Apex) to demonstrate how it should have looked...

15:01:18:07:51:41.8::Kazon Cruiser,C[674783 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Phaser Array,Pn.Ddlvnl,Shield,,-155.236,-142.581
15:01:18:07:51:41.8::Kazon Cruiser,C[674783 Space_Kazon_Cruiser],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Phaser Array,Pn.Ddlvnl,Phaser,,9.91202,264.195

First, looking at the Benthan lines - the normal lines.

While Shields are up, capacity on the facing being attacked, there will be two lines. There will be the Shield line and the Hull line. The last two numbers on each line are what folks will often look at when looking at the raw log. Those numbers are...

Shield Line: Damage to Shields, Hull Damage Prevented by Shields
Hull Line: Damage to Hull, Base Damage of Attack

That Hull Damage Prevented by Shields is an odd one in of itself because it can be higher than the Base Damage of Attack because of debuff stacking and how it affects the Damage to Hull. But that's another issue.

But basically, a 264.195 Phaser hit did 155.236 damage to shields and 9.91202 damage to hull. The math behind calculating resistances and reductions for that stuff is way beyond what I can do...I can just do the simple stuff against standard NPCs where we know damage resistance (0%) and shield damage reduction (14%). It would be nifty if somebody had a decent explanation and formula for calculating that or could point to one. But that's an aside...anyway.

So then moving on to the Apex and that Torp hit...

Basically a 16462.7 Torp hit did...did...did...

Yeah, it did no hull damage. There's a second Shield line.

The Plasma DoT, which shouldn't touch shields instead did it's full damage to Shields...telling us that it ignored the Hull Damage Resistance it would have faced actually hitting Hull and even ignored the Shield Damage Reduction it should have faced since it hit Shields instead.

Jumped down to the DoT because it helps explain that second Shield line.

So that 16462.7 Torp hit, threw some damage at the Shield...should have thrown some damage at the Hull. It should have been 5% to the Hull. What we see with that Second line though is equivalent to what would have been 6.5% unresisted damage to the Hull being done to the Shields...without facing any Shield Damage Reduction.

Here's another set of lines from later in the log...

15:01:18:05:37:27.0::Sphere,C[171 Space_Borg_Cruiser_Raidisode],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Plasma Array,Pn.4g1l7r,Shield,,-262.116,-431.546
15:01:18:05:37:27.0::Sphere,C[171 Space_Borg_Cruiser_Raidisode],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Plasma Array,Pn.4g1l7r,Shield,,-136.406,-53.3372
15:01:18:05:37:27.0::Sphere,C[171 Space_Borg_Cruiser_Raidisode],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Plasma Array,Pn.4g1l7r,Plasma,,0,1240.05

1240.05 Base Damage, did 262.116 to Shields, and the 136.406 it should have done to Hull it did unresisted/unreduced to Shields as well.

That 136.406 is 11% bleed.

6.5%...11%? Yeah, Pattern Recognition provides a +1.5% Shield Hardness per stack up to a 4stack. But in this case, it was increasing bleedthrough. So the longer I was in combat, the worse it got...heh. Basically that +1.5% reduces Hull damage but increases Shield damage...so...whammo!

But yeah, just a fun thing to run into while heading off to try to chill...wheeee-boom.

edit: Shouldn't have said wheeee-boom, didn't die...but it was damn dicey, lol.

virusdancer

What wasn't happening to me in the Benthan when I posted this report...

...is now happening to me in the Benthan as well.

15:01:19:19:49:32.2::Cube,C[53355 Space_Borg_Battleship_Raidisode],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Plasma Array,Pn.4g1l7r,Shield,,-618.505,-971.194
15:01:19:19:49:32.2::Cube,C[53355 Space_Borg_Battleship_Raidisode],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Plasma Array,Pn.4g1l7r,Shield,,-126.443,-67.5162
15:01:19:19:49:32.2::Cube,C[53355 Space_Borg_Battleship_Raidisode],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Plasma Array,Pn.4g1l7r,Plasma,,0,1945.27

I didn't change anything from when I did the report...where this wasn't happening on the Benthan, wasn't happening on any ship for me but the Apex.

What's the deal here?

Anybody else seeing this happening to their ships?

virusdancer

Since this started happening on the Benthan as well, I decided to run some tests. It's not like I can actually play otherwise. So why not run some tests to see if I can provide info to help resolve the issue.

Running with or without Cruiser Commands did not affect it.

Removing Pattern Recognition did not stop it - it only affected the increase previously mentioned.

Removed all Traits (Personal, Starship, Reputation, Reptutation Active) and this did not stop it.

Removed all DOFFs and this did not stop it.

Removed all BOFFs and this did fix it.

Returned all BOFFs, but did not activate any BOFF abilities, and this did not recreate the issue.

This suggests that it is a BOFF ability that is causing the issue.

Let's start with the obvious EPtS1, since the issue is with shields. EPtS1 did not trigger the issue though.

Okay then, er - well - APB2 would have been the next ability I would have hit for an engagement.

And tada, that's it. Attack Pattern Expertise II...the "Temporary Hit Points"...as long as APE is up, it's subtracting that damage from shields that it should be subtracting from the "Temporary Hit Points". With Reciprocity, APB's basically up full time (give or take a 0.5s activation delay) and thus shields are totally getting hammered.

Let me look at some older parses though...stuff where the same should have been in play to see if it was happening there. Sure enough, it was there. Hrmmm...different shield mod, more shield heals, probably why I didn't notice it.

Let's see if it is happening to other folks. And I'm not seeing it there. But I don't know if they have Attack Pattern Expertise II or not...meh.

Going to ask the mods to rename this thread...perhaps more folks with APE2 could check if they are having the issue if the thread had that name going for it.

askray

Thread renamed per OP's request

jarvisandalfred

virusdancer wrote: »

Going to ask the mods to rename this thread...perhaps more folks with APE2 could check if they are having the issue if the thread had that name going for it.

Lines such as this:

15:01:11:03:36:09.2::Sphere,C[7714 Space_Borg_Cruiser_Raidisode],,*,Vel,P[6125801@10343987 Vel@jarvisandalfred],Plasma Array,Pn.4g1l7r,Shield,,-978.552,-812.516
15:01:11:03:36:09.2::Sphere,C[7714 Space_Borg_Cruiser_Raidisode],,*,Vel,P[6125801@10343987 Vel@jarvisandalfred],Plasma Array,Pn.4g1l7r,Shield,,-76.4209,-42.764
15:01:11:03:36:09.2::Sphere,C[7711 Space_Borg_Cruiser_Raidisode],,*,Vel,P[6125801@10343987 Vel@jarvisandalfred],Plasma Array,Pn.4g1l7r,Shield,,-830.668,-689.724
15:01:11:03:36:09.2::Sphere,C[7711 Space_Borg_Cruiser_Raidisode],,*,Vel,P[6125801@10343987 Vel@jarvisandalfred],Plasma Array,Pn.4g1l7r,Shield,,-64.8717,-36.3013
15:01:11:03:36:09.2::Sphere,C[7714 Space_Borg_Cruiser_Raidisode],,*,Vel,P[6125801@10343987 Vel@jarvisandalfred],Plasma Array,Pn.4g1l7r,Plasma,,0,1528.42
15:01:11:03:36:09.2::Sphere,C[7711 Space_Borg_Cruiser_Raidisode],,*,Vel,P[6125801@10343987 Vel@jarvisandalfred],Plasma Array,Pn.4g1l7r,Plasma,,0,1297.43

This:

15:01:11:03:36:16.1::Sphere,C[7712 Space_Borg_Cruiser_Raidisode],,*,Vel,P[6125801@10343987 Vel@jarvisandalfred],Plasma Array,Pn.4g1l7r,Shield,,-612.475,-573.366
15:01:11:03:36:16.1::Sphere,C[7712 Space_Borg_Cruiser_Raidisode],,*,Vel,P[6125801@10343987 Vel@jarvisandalfred],Plasma Array,Pn.4g1l7r,Shield,,-49.2291,-30.1772
15:01:11:03:36:16.1::Sphere,C[7711 Space_Borg_Cruiser_Raidisode],,*,Vel,P[6125801@10343987 Vel@jarvisandalfred],Plasma Array,Pn.4g1l7r,Shield,,-633.721,-593.255
15:01:11:03:36:16.1::Sphere,C[7711 Space_Borg_Cruiser_Raidisode],,*,Vel,P[6125801@10343987 Vel@jarvisandalfred],Plasma Array,Pn.4g1l7r,Shield,,-50.9367,-31.2239
15:01:11:03:36:16.1::Sphere,C[7712 Space_Borg_Cruiser_Raidisode],,*,Vel,P[6125801@10343987 Vel@jarvisandalfred],Plasma Array,Pn.4g1l7r,Plasma,,0,984.581
15:01:11:03:36:16.1::Sphere,C[7711 Space_Borg_Cruiser_Raidisode],,*,Vel,P[6125801@10343987 Vel@jarvisandalfred],Plasma Array,Pn.4g1l7r,Plasma,,0,1018.73

And this:

15:01:11:03:40:52.7::Sphere,C[7921 Space_Borg_Cruiser_Raidisode_No_Loot],,*,Vel,P[6125801@10343987 Vel@jarvisandalfred],Plasma Torpedo,Pn.Rm7fzt,Shield,,-804.138,-445.803
15:01:11:03:40:52.7::Sphere,C[7921 Space_Borg_Cruiser_Raidisode_No_Loot],,*,Vel,P[6125801@10343987 Vel@jarvisandalfred],Plasma Torpedo,Pn.Rm7fzt,Shield,,-361.592,-202.596
15:01:11:03:40:52.7::Sphere,C[7921 Space_Borg_Cruiser_Raidisode_No_Loot],,*,Vel,P[6125801@10343987 Vel@jarvisandalfred],Plasma Torpedo,Pn.Rm7fzt,Kinetic,,0,16082.8

Do appear to be what you're describing, yes. The character I noticed this on cycles APD/APO with one zemok, and has APE2. That's wonky.

I dunno, this character has a valdore, which makes it pretty handy - I'll take it. :P

Edit: Have you considered that perhaps this is how it's showing up intentionally?

Could one of those shield lines be the overshield, the other one be actual shields, and the third one be hull (blank because nothing makes it through the overshield)?

virusdancer

Well the thing is, if we start out with (quasi fake numbers) the following:

16,000 Shields
90,000 Hull
9,000 Temporary Hit Points

Say we go with the following for resists/reductions:

Shield Damage Reduction 50%
Hull Damage Resistance 50%

We'll skip the Resilient Shield vs. standard Shield and the Pattern Recognition aspect. Just flat 10% bleedthrough.

So we toss a 2500 hit at it.

The expectation, well mine, would be the following happen.

90% goes to shields. 10% goes to hull/temporary.

The 90% that goes to shields would face the 50% reduction.

2500 * 0.9 = 2250 * 0.5 = 1125 damage to shields.

The 10% that goes to hull, is a little more complicated. Do the temporary hit points have the damage resist of the ship or are they 0% damage resistance?

If it matches the hull damage resistance, then we would see the following...

2500 * 0.1 = 250 * 0.5 = 125 damage subtracted from the temporary hit points.

If it doesn't match and is 0%, then we would see the following...

2500 * 0.1 = 250 damage subtracted from the temporary hit points.

And that would be that...done.

What's actually happening though, is that 250 that was subtracted from the temporary hit points is also being subtracted from the shields.

So instead of it being 1125 to shields and 250 to temporary hit points, it's 1375 to shields and 250 to temporary hit points.

So those shields that could have would have buckled with the 15th hit will now buckle with the 13th hit.

Not such a big deal, so to speak. But let's work in that Pattern Recognition now with 4 stacks.

First the initial amount to shields...

2500 * 0.96 = 2400 * 0.5 = 1200

Then the amount that's getting passed to the temporary hit points...

2500 * 0.16 = 400

1600 damage to shields. You've gone from 15 hits to 10 hits.

As long as you have shield capacity, sure you won't take any hull damage - cause all the damage is going to shields; but when the shield facing buckles...

So like with that Torp hit I mentioned in the OP...that did 3212.894 damage to shields in the one hit and that Plasma DoT would keep eating away for 365.604 from shields with each tick instead of having that damage going to hull and being resisted there. The shields should have only taken 1777.21 damage.

There was the thread somebody had posted about not being able to heal their shields with APE up...but that's not really the case, you can toss the heals - but the shields are just taking that much more damage than they should be...so unless you're also carrying a bunch of hull heals too as those shields drop...

askray wrote: »

Thread renamed per OP's request

Thank you.

virusdancer

So I decided why not run an ISA without using an Attack Pattern to see what happens (hey, I still had over twice the DPS of the next guy - I didn't sabotage it - the folks chasing butterflies did, that group had more than enough DPS not to fail at the first Trans). But anyway, yeah - there was no WTF where did my shields go...it was...normal. Still took 65.2% of the attacks. But there was no WTF where did my shields go taking place.

So I hunted down that other thread, and yeah - I asked the question in that thread if it was a bug that APE was also giving a boost to shield HP. You can pull your shields off and hit an Attack Pattern to see that it does this with APE.

Mine...

Fore Shields: 6906/6906
Rear Shields: n/a
Right Shields: n/a
Left Shields: n/a

Which got me thinking about what's showing in the parse. If we're supposed to be getting the Temporary Hit Points (which should be Hull) but we're also getting the shield stuff, then why in the log are there two shield lines and not two hull lines?

How is that mechanic working? If it was just adding temporary on top, then it would be the standard two lines, right? Or it would be those two standard lines with the temporary stuff until it got to the normal stuff, right?

Why would it be writing a shield line if that was for the temporary hull...and given that it's giving temporary shields as well, that would make even less sense.

So is it simply a case that the temporary shields actually are the temporary HP? That would make the most sense out of what was seen in the combatlog. That Plasma DoT ticking away at the Shields was actually a Plasma DoT ticking away at the Temporary Hit Points masquerading as shields.

And that would be a great explanation, imho...but it wouldn't explain the night and day difference of WTF where did my shields go that takes place when using an Attack Pattern with APE vs. not using an Attack Pattern.

My Benthan has 15,886 shield capacity with 61.4% to 85.1% shield damage reduction vs. Plasma...that's an effective shield capacity of 41,155 to 106,617. Without using an Attack Pattern, I can tell...cause I like to grab aggro and have everything shooting at me so others can do there thing. I use that Attack Pattern...and it's WTF where did my shields go?

It's beyond me to explain what's going on...maybe I'm having a senile moment. Is it time for me to have one those already? Cause I do have them...heh, they do usually involve Attack Patterns; but it's usually the formula for calculating the actual Defense bonus from APO that I forget every six months or so cause the tooltip is a lie and wonder why they nerfed it, lol; but after frtoaster helped me with that the last time I've tried to be good about it.

I just don't know what's going on here, and if I'm being a complete nub - let me know, I'll quietly slither away.

edit: Since I didn't "notice" it until recently, I decided to take a look at some of the saved logs I had.

Dec30: 150.5k hull damage/96.5k hull heal, 380.9k shield damage/298.8k shield heal, 37.6% of attacks, 253% shield vs. hull damage
Jan1: 115.3k/89.6k, 320.6k/219k, 36.9%, 278%
Jan2: 310.9k/280.2k, 710.4k/577.6k, 63.2%, 229%
Jan7: 215k/173.1k, 561.4k/406.1k, 41.5%, 261%
Jan10: 94.5k/66.8k, 294.1k/322.3k, 39.4%, 311%
Jan10: 303.4k/236.2k, 679.1k/739.7k, 60.5%, 224%
Jan11: 256.3k/179.7k, 514.7k/505.3k, 50%, 201%
Jan11: 183.7k/162.7k, 404.9k/398.9k, 80.7%, 220%

Jan19: 387.6k/290.4k, 896.7k/584.2k, 79.9%, 231%

So yeah, I'm just going to slither away...I'm going to guess that it's working the way it's supposed to and I was just having a moment.

baelogventure

Damnit Virus.

You're confusing people! (Probably just me)

Short simple words!

From what I've gathered from all that...

"APE makes shields take more damage when temp hull is active"

That right?

And, here's a question, is it happening with the temp hull from the Pathfinder trait?

virusdancer

baelogventure wrote: »

Damnit Virus.

You're confusing people! (Probably just me)

Short simple words!

From what I've gathered from all that...

"APE makes shields take more damage when temp hull is active"

That right?

And, here's a question, is it happening with the temp hull from the Pathfinder trait?

Hrmm, easiest way is to take shields off and look at what happens. APE creates a temporary hit point pool...that is drained by both shield hits and hull hits.

Mine gives 6906 temporary hit points. So with the three line attack...

Shields
Fake Shield (Hull)
Hull (just showing the Base Damage of the attack, no damage to Hull)

The Shield hit drains the pool. What would have been passed to the Hull drains the pool.

After a combined 6906 damage is done there, I'll start taking hull damage. There will be the three lines during this process....Shield, Shield (Hull), Hull (just showing Base)...until the 6906 is gone; then it will just be the hull hits.

The Shield line will reflect things normally, bleedthrough, shield damage reduction, etc. The Shield (Hull) line on the other hand gets wonky - there's no hull damage resistance applied and it's treated as shield instead of hull meaning that it takes more damage even before resistance than hull would.

Say somebody had a 7000 pool, standard shields, 50% shield damage reduction, 50% damage resistance, and one stack of Pattern Recognition. Gets hit by a 2000 point hit.

Line 1: 915 shield damage, some number
Line 2: 230 shield damage, some number
Line 3: 0 hull damage, 2000 base damage

2000 * 0.915 * 0.5 = 915
2000 * 0.065 = 230

Should subtract 1145 from that 7000 pool. Once the pool is gone, they should see:

Line 1: 915 shield damage, some number
Line 2: 35 hull damage, 2000 base damage

2000 * 0.915 * 0.5 = 915
2000 * 0.035 * 0.5 = 35

If things are working as intended...which they might very well be. Could totally just be a fubar perception issue on my end.

Hrmm, looks like the Temporary Hit Points are modified by the ship's Hull Modifier. Only seeing 6630 on the Sarr Theln that I switched to...

But anyway, when you have no shields and pop APwhatever to get APE...it will have that value listed in the Fore Shields:

Fore Shields: 6630/6630
Rear Shields: n/a
Right Shields: n/a
Left Shields: n/a

With shields slotted, it does not add anything...mine just looks normal:

Fore Shields: 16,579 / 16,579
Rear Shields: 16,579 / 16,579
Right Shields: 16,579 / 16,579
Left Shields: 16,579 / 16,579

Which has me wondering if that unresisted and increased amount from the second shield line is just coming from my regular shields instead of from that temporary pool...cause it didn't add it like it does without shields equipped.

But I never had the WTF where did my shields go with the Sarr Theln. That's why the initial report/thread title was an Apex Shield Issue...cause in switching from the Sarr Theln to the Apex to chill (I was told to chill in another thread), wham bam - WTF where did my shields go? I hopped in the Benthan with the same build, but did not experience that. Then the next day, in the Benthan it was WTF where did my shields go? I did another run without using APB2 on the ship, so no APE, and there was no WTF where did my shields go taking place. I went and did another run in the Sarr Theln while using APB2...and...no WTF where did my shields go taking place.

Makes no sense to me - thus why it could be a perception thing (but man, it's like night and day on the Benthan when having APE or not - it's just weird that it doesn't stand out with the Sarr Theln like that, then again it didn't earlier with the Benthan). So I've got no clue what's going on there...meh.

And meh, this wasn't any clearer a description than the earlier stuff...but at least it wasn't full of meaningless log data, eh? Going to slither away again...

edit: It's brutal in the Apex. I dropped TBR, added TSS, dropped EPtW, took EPtS up a rank, added in EPtA, DOFF'd EPtA for increased Shield/Hull healing, and even with somebody else tossing me a bunch of shield heals, splitting the aggro, and having somebody obliterating everything...it was a case of just watching shields vanish. Totally butchered my DPS to try to get the shield stuff going...and...meh.

edit2: Looking at the log from that Apex run, there was no hull damage until the temporary hit points were drained from the second line. So in the time it took to drain the 6906 with the second line, there was 13319 drained from the first line on a boat with 14,043 shield capacity.

1296.99 did 532.379 shield; 41%
1233.17 did 506.183 shield; 41%
1304.88 did 535.616 shield; 41%
1387.08 did 578.493 shield; 41.7%
1597.11 did 655.57 shield; 41%
1157.9 did 475.285 shield; 41% (and 3.8147e-006 hull)
1142.54 did 468.982 shield; 41%
1638.17 did 574.922 shield; 35.1%
17066.5 did 1779.43 shield; 10.4%
1069.11 did 375.207 shield; 35.1%
42600.8 did 4371.61 shield; 10.3%
1690.67 did 538.508 shield; 31.8%
No Hull Line did 478.028 shield; ???
16369.2 did 1448.3 shield; 8.8%

Skipping down to the next two regular two lines...

1590.78 did 481.354 shield; 30.25%
1558.95 did 471.725 shield; 30.25%

Skipping down to a critical right before the three line started again...

3078.8 did 931.618 shield; 30.25%

Just grabbing random two lines throughout the log and they're ~30.2x%...

...so I'm not crazy, I am taking more shield damage with APE active - at least with energy attacks.

I'm out of caffeine and I'm going to sleep.

iusasset

Edited to add: and it turns out Virus already preemptively answered most of (all of?) these questions in a previous post IN THIS THREAD that I overlooked because I am a fool. Safe to ignore all BUT the following questions:

1. Do we know that both Hull/Shield resistances actually (or are supposed to) apply to damage dealt to the Temp HP pool? What I'm trying to say is, has Systems ever weighed in on this, or has anyone (jarvisandalfred, looking at you) ever tried to parse or tease this out?

2. Is it at all possible that direct-to-hull damage is instead bypassing temp HP and getting applied directly to shields for some reason? (Virus, you suggest that this might at least partially be the case, though I think you're actually observing that temp HP and shields are getting the direct-to-hull damage?)

Rest of post left up for posterity so everyone can point and laugh at how I'm an idiot for not reading this thread in full.

---

Wat.

So in reading this and trying to wrap my head around what's going on, it occurred to me that I've never actually stopped and considered how the hell temp HP actually work, which is hilarious since this mechanic has been around for...over 2 years, now? Seems like the sort of thing I'd know but all I have are assumptions that I've never bothered to test. Oops...

So I'm going to (briefly) derail this thread to ask a series of questions that I feel like I should already know the answers to but don't because I've never actually paid attention to this mechanic before.

How are resists calculated for temporary HP? Off shields? Off hull? Do they have their own resistances that pop out of the aether? (Seems least likely to be solved but now I really want to know...)

Do temporary HP actually overlay over shields and hull, preventing damage to neither until all are depleted? (I've always assumed that's how they work - hence why you can trigger interacts while temporary HP are up that you normally cannot while damage is being sustained, such as during Borg Disco - but I've never paid enough attention to confirm...yeah this is totally embarrassing.) If not - if temporary HP squeeze between shields and hull, perhaps that'd explain what Virus is observing? (Or it's bugged and shields and temporary HP are getting depleted simultaneously, which is possible.) (This leads to another obvious question...the hell happens to direct-to-hull damage (DEM, plasma burn, etc.) and shield-penetration calculations while temporary HP are up? Again, I've never bothered to pay attention enough to see what's actually going on.) (Here's a scary thought - what if what would normally apply direct-to-hull is instead applying direct-to-shields while temporary HP are up? Is that what Virus is observing and I'm just an idiot for not realizing this after reading his first two posts? (Probably, eyes glazed over the first time because no coffee and tired.))

Apologies for the derailment and the stupid questions (I bet all of this has been covered somewhere but I've never bothered to check), but I feel like knowing how temporary HP do (or ought to, if someone from systems would be so kind as to chime in) work would help us figure out (and repro) whatever the hell Virus is observing here.

Either way I'll probably run some tests tonight to try and figure some of this stuff out myself anyway.

jarvisandalfred

Found these 5 lines, while delving into a log:

15:01:07:10:49:17.8::Nanite Sphere,C[29255 Mission_Infected_Healer_Sphere],,*,Vel,P[6125801@10343987 Vel@jarvisandalfred],Plasma Array,Pn.4g1l7r,Shield,,-800.854,-666.67
15:01:07:10:49:17.8::Nanite Sphere,C[29255 Mission_Infected_Healer_Sphere],,*,Vel,P[6125801@10343987 Vel@jarvisandalfred],Plasma Array,Pn.4g1l7r,Shield,,-66.4499,-35.0879
15:01:07:10:49:17.8::Nanite Sphere,C[29255 Mission_Infected_Healer_Sphere],,*,Vel,P[6125801@10343987 Vel@jarvisandalfred],Plasma - Plasma Fire,Pn.Hhqx7h,Shield,,-223.494,-118.013
15:01:07:10:49:17.8::Nanite Sphere,C[29255 Mission_Infected_Healer_Sphere],,*,Vel,P[6125801@10343987 Vel@jarvisandalfred],Plasma Array,Pn.4g1l7r,Plasma,,0,1329
15:01:07:10:49:17.8::Nanite Sphere,C[29255 Mission_Infected_Healer_Sphere],,*,Vel,P[6125801@10343987 Vel@jarvisandalfred],Plasma - Plasma Fire,Pn.Hhqx7h,Plasma,,0,223.494

Let me cut those down to the important part:

Plasma Array,Pn.4g1l7r,Shield,,-800.854,-666.67
Plasma Array,Pn.4g1l7r,Shield,,-66.4499,-35.0879
Plasma - Plasma Fire,Pn.Hhqx7h,Shield,,-223.494,-118.013
Plasma Array,Pn.4g1l7r,Plasma,,0,1329
Plasma - Plasma Fire,Pn.Hhqx7h,Plasma,,0,223.494

Now, the first thing is that the third and fourth lines are in the wrong order. But we do have plasma fire doing damage to a 'shield', which clearly isn't something that happens - it's to the overshield. This is quite convenient, as it lets us ignore shields for a moment when looking at the overshield.

Shortly later (.5 seconds, If I can read that timestamp correctly), I have these lines:

15:01:07:10:49:18.3::Nanite Sphere,C[29254 Mission_Infected_Healer_Sphere],,*,Vel,P[6125801@10343987 Vel@jarvisandalfred],Plasma Array,Pn.4g1l7r,Shield,,-653.617,-544.103
15:01:07:10:49:18.3::Nanite Sphere,C[29254 Mission_Infected_Healer_Sphere],,*,Vel,P[6125801@10343987 Vel@jarvisandalfred],Plasma Array,Pn.4g1l7r,Plasma,,28.637,1084.66

(the three lines inbetween appear to feature the overshield collapse, as it's 2 lines of damage to shields and one line of minimal hull damage)

I'm just assuming, since I didn't have any heals during that duration, and I hit A2SIF a few seconds afterward the last line, that my hull DR was close enough to constant for that duration. Also, I use the Nukara Shield exclusively, so 5% bleedthrough should be in effect - no fancy traits or starship masteries messing that up.

So, boiling it down:

First, looking at the plasma fire lines:
Plasma Fire,Pn.Hhqx7h,Shield,,-223.494,-118.013
Plasma Fire,Pn.Hhqx7h,Plasma,,0,223.494

The base shot damage and the damage to the overshield are the same - that tells me that overshields have no resistances. Secondly, using the below formula, I get the hull damage resistance as 47.196%, which is rather nicely exactly what I get from the normal lines .5 seconds later.

Hull damage resist should be simple, unless I'm way off-base: Take a line with damage to hull (I'm taking the very last one, Plasma,,28.637,1084.66). Since it's 5% bleedthrough, the shot would have done 20x it's actual hull damage if there had been no shields in place, so 1-(20 times hull damage)/(base of attack) should get hull resist.

Now, I've double-checked hull damage resistance, and so I can use my lines without an overshield from .5 seconds later to figure out my shield damage resistance at the moment.

Since shield DR is known to be this formula (thanks, btw - I'll finish out that later this week):

1 - (Shield Damage / (Hull Damage Prevented By Shields / (1 - Hull Damage Resistance))) = Shield Damage Resistance

Using these lines:

Shield,,-653.617,-544.103
Plasma,,28.637,1084.66

Gives my shield resistance at the moment as 37.713%.

So, overshields have no damage resistance, my current shield resist is 37.713%, my current hull resist is 47.196%, and I know my bleedthrough's at 5%. So, let me go march up to the top 3 lines:


Plasma Array,Pn.4g1l7r,Shield,,-800.854,-666.67
Plasma Array,Pn.4g1l7r,Shield,,-66.4499,-35.0879
Plasma Array,Pn.4g1l7r,Plasma,,0,1329

I'm going to say that the shot chunks into the actual shield first, and then bleedthrough goes to the overshield. Let's see what that looks like, in reality:

I'm looking at the second line first (damage to overshield), because the top one confuses me still first time running the numbers. The first section is 'shield damage'. The base incoming should have been 5% of 1329 (the shot's base damage), or 66.45 damage. That matches with what we see, if the overshield has 0 damage resist (which is in fact what I thought already).

The second part of the second line is 'hull damage shield prevented'. Scribbling in onenote tells me that Actual Damage divided by (damage resistance - one) equals incoming damage . So, 35.0879 (what the actual to hull would have been) divided by .528036 (my damage resistance minus one) equals 66.449, so hull damage resistance is still working.

Looking at the first line, now, here's what I see:

800.854 shield damage.

Shield damage should be simple enough, .9 (resilient shields, energy weapons, 90% of damage hits shield) times base attack times resists should come out to that.

So, 90% of the shot is 1196.1 damage. Since my shield resistance is 37.7127% (or it was .5 seconds later, with no visible reason for it to change)...1196.1 times (1-.377127) is...745.018. Not what I expected.

Here's where it gets interesting. If I re-calculate shield damage resistance to that attack, I get a result of 36.56% shield damage resistance.

If, using that new damage resistance, I re-calculate it, I still get a wrong number. But, if I say that the shield took 95% (Which is not what's described here - this says that since it's an energy weapon hit, that 5%'s dissipated, I get a shield hit, after shield resist, of 800.857 damage, which is effectively right on the money. This tells me that, if nothing else, during Attack Pattern Expertise, Resilient shields are eating 95% of the damage from energy weapons.

Hull damage shield prevented. This is .95 times base attack (while the shield took 90% of the attack, it dissipated the other 5%, so the shield blocked 95% of the attack), times one minus hull resist, or:

1329*.95*(1-.47196)=666.6724 This time, it's right on the money.


So, what I'm taking away from this post is the following:

• During APE, if not always, resilient shields eat the full 95% of the damage they don't pass to the hull.
  
• Overshields don't have any resistance.
  
• While you have an overshield, your shields act normally, and the damage that they'd pass to the hull is instead eaten by the overshield - your shield itself will still take damage.
  
• I still hate calculating shield resistance.

Now, let me take this and look at your post.

jarvisandalfred

virusdancer wrote: »

15:01:19:19:49:32.2::Cube,C[53355 Space_Borg_Battleship_Raidisode],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Plasma Array,Pn.4g1l7r,Shield,,-618.505,-971.194
15:01:19:19:49:32.2::Cube,C[53355 Space_Borg_Battleship_Raidisode],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Plasma Array,Pn.4g1l7r,Shield,,-126.443,-67.5162
15:01:19:19:49:32.2::Cube,C[53355 Space_Borg_Battleship_Raidisode],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Plasma Array,Pn.4g1l7r,Plasma,,0,1945.27

...

What's the deal here?

Correct me if I'm wrong, I think I'm seeing a hull damage resist of 46.6%, and a shield damage resist percent of 65.99%, since the first line's the actual shield damage, it seems.

From there, we have your second line, the damage to overshield. Since it has no resists, the 'shield damage' in this line can be taken as a base as well. In this case, it's 6.5% of the base damage of the shot... an odd number indeed.

Still, I'm using that line to calculate your hull damage resist, since that part should be fairly normal (that amount was either hitting temp hp or hull, so using that to get resists works out just fine, in theory).

So, I have shield resist, I have hull resist, I have base damage, so I can look at what percent of the base damage of the shot went to your shield.

I'm pretty sure we can say that the following formula holds true:

Base damage of shot times percentage diverted to shields times one minus shield resist equals damage to shields.

That can be re-arranged to the following:

Percentage diverted to shields=(Damage to Shields)/((1-Shield Resist) * (Base damage of shot))

Which comes out to percentage = (618.505)/((1-.7032) * (1945.27))

Which comes out to be .93500, or 93.5%...

Now, since your first list has you using Resilient Shields, and in fact running the very first lines:

15:01:18:07:32:23.0::Hunter Escort,C[705355 Space_Hirogen_Escort],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Tetryon Array,Pn.Ianv3x1,Shield,,-586.373,-524.954
15:01:18:07:32:23.0::Hunter Escort,C[705355 Space_Hirogen_Escort],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Tetryon Array,Pn.Ianv3x1,Shield,,-63.2264,-36.4941
15:01:18:07:32:23.0::Hunter Escort,C[705355 Space_Hirogen_Escort],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Tetryon Array,Pn.Ianv3x1,Tetryon,,0,972.714

Gives me a hull damage resist of 42.28%, a shield DR of 35.52%, a bleedthrough amount of 6.5%, and that same 93.5% damage hitting your shields...

Your solanae lines come out to be odd, though - same hull resist, 27.84% shield resist, but only 5% bleedthrough and a full 95% to shields.

For fun, deciphering what happens here:

15:01:18:05:29:07.1::Sphere,C[164 Space_Borg_Cruiser_Raidisode],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Plasma Torpedo,Pn.Rm7fzt,Shield,,-1777.21,-8220.36
15:01:18:05:29:07.1::Sphere,C[164 Space_Borg_Cruiser_Raidisode],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Plasma Torpedo,Pn.Rm7fzt,Shield,,-1070.08,-571.469
15:01:18:05:29:07.1::Sphere,C[164 Space_Borg_Cruiser_Raidisode],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Plasma Torpedo,Pn.Rm7fzt,Shield,,-365.604,-195.163
15:01:18:05:29:07.1::Sphere,C[164 Space_Borg_Cruiser_Raidisode],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Plasma Torpedo,Pn.Rm7fzt,Kinetic,,0,16462.7
15:01:18:05:29:07.1::Sphere,C[164 Space_Borg_Cruiser_Raidisode],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Plasma Torpedo,Pn.Rm7fzt,Plasma,,0,365.604

Gives me the idea that lines 1, 2, and 4 go together, and that for that shot, you still had that wonky 93.5% to shields, 6.5% to overshield, and that you have absurdly high shield resist (88.45%) because it's a shield and has the innate 75% kinetic resist.

Lines 3 and 5 show you completely devoid of shield facings, and the first line there is it hitting against that 0 resist overshield, and the second line of it shows that the overshield still took it all.


So, what I'm seeing here is that the issue's one of pattern recognition and attack pattern expertise not playing nicely - likely because both are counted as shields.

Also, lines later on in my parse told me that that whole '5% disappears' part isn't happening, even when I don't have attack pattern expertise up. Just as a heads up.


Edit: to clarify a few things, pre-emptively:

Attack pattern expertise appears to be working completely fine, by itself. What's happening is that damage goes to shields normally, and it handles any bleedthrough just as if it was hull, except that it has no resistances whatsoever.

The issue appears to be when it interacts with pattern recognition, and actually in that case it's lessening the amount of damage the shield itself takes, not increasing it - it should be making your shield array stay at capacity longer.

virusdancer

The Pattern Recognition thing is...well, yeah...where even to start with that one?

http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1174371

Pattern Recognition:
---Defense Bonus per stack reduced from 2% to 1.5%
---Shield Hardness per stack reduced from 2% to 1.5%
---Replaced "Resilience" with "Hardness" in tooltip.

---

This effect reduces the damage dealt to the shields when they block damage done to your hull.

Was a patch that changed it from what the tooltips had once said...

Pattern Recognition
+2.5% Defense
+1.25% Shield Resilience

...where hardness was only mentioned in the narrative and stirred up a bit of conversation, heh. The discussion got into if it was reduced shield bleed since Intense Focus was increased shield bleed.

But then those release notes and that it was Shield Damage Reduction.

But in looking at that second line across multiple hits over a period of time, it becomes clear that as far as that line is concerned (in the way it is working incorrectly, so to speak)...that it is actually reduced Shield Penetration (increased Shield Resilience).

Each of those second lines...

Before Pattern Recognition stacks...5% of the base.
1stack...6.5%
2stack...8.0%
3stack...9.5%
4stack...11.0%

Which gets really funky when you consider what that would mean for Shield Penetration with Resilient Shields.

Say we look at a standard Shield first.

90.0% Shield Penetration/Bleedthrough Resistance and 10.0% Shield Penetration/Bleedthrough.
91.5% Shield Penetration/Bleedthrough Resistance and 8.5% Shield Penetration/Bleedthrough.
(just going to call them SPBR and SPB for the rest of this)
93.0% SPBR and 7.0% SPB.
94.5% SPBR and 5.5% SPB.
96.0% SPBR and 4.0% SPB.

But then we look at a Resilient Shield.

90.0% SPBR, 5% SPB, and 5% Consumed By The Magical Ether! (yeah, anyway - I'll call that ME).
91.5% SPBR, 3.5% SPB, and 5% ME?
93.0% SPBR, 2.0% SPB, and 5% ME?
94.5% SPBR, 0.5% SPB, and 5% ME?
96.0% SPBR, -1% SPB, and 5% ME?

Maybe a case that it's really 10%/2?

91.5% SPBR, 4.25% SPB/ME?
93.0% SPBR, 3.5% SPB/ME?
94.5% SPBR, 2.75% SPB/ME?
96.0% SPBR, 2.0% SPB/ME?

If I've got a...

-344.528,-592.897
31.2051,1407.66

...pair of standard lines right after a 6.5% line, should be able to take a look at some of it, eh?

1407.66 * 0.915 = 1288.0089; 344.528 / 1288.0089 = 0.267; 1 - 0.267 = 73.3%

Given what's on that build, that's entirely possible...even more would be possible.

1407.66 * 0.9 = 1266.894; 344.528 / 1266.894 = 0.272; 1 - 0.272 = 72.8%

What if Resilience was totally broken?

1407.66 * 0.95 = 1337.277; 344.528 / 1337.277 = 0.2576; 1 - 0.2576 = 74.24%
1407.66 * 0.965 = 1358.3919; 344.528 / 1358.3919 = 0.2536; 1 - 0.2536 = 74.64%

Hrmmm, possible but not probable at that point in combat.

What if we tackle what was done to hull?

1407.66 * 0.05 = 70.383

That would be without any Pattern Recognition stacks, but there was one at that point. Which creates two scenarios from above, eh?

1407.66 * 0.035 = 49.2681
1407.66 * 0.0425 = 59.82555

Running those three numbers vs. the hull damage...

31.2051 / 70.383 = 0.4433; 1 - 0.4433 = 55.66%
31.2051 / 49.2681 = 0.6333; 1 - 0.6333 = 36.66%
31.2051 / 59.8255 = 0.5216; 1 - 0.5216 = 47.84%

And it couldn't have been the 36.66% one...because the base is 42.3%.

6 Starship Hull Plating: 12.6
T3 Battle Cruiser Mastery: 25.0
G14 Bounty Hunter's Friend: 37.5
Accolade: 2.0

77.1 DRR would give me 42.28% DR.

Popping HE2 would have provided enough +DRR to take that DR to 47.84% (I got 47.89%).

Hey, that supports the 90%/(10%/2) angle, eh? Well, with that then we can take a look at that other number and see if everything matches up, eh?

Using that formula renim dropped out (lol, it was a trip you had linked to a post I'd completely forgotten writing...meh)...

1 - (Shield Damage / (Hull Damage Prevented By Shields / (1 - Hull Damage Resistance))) = Shield Damage Resistance

1 - (344.528 / (592.897 / (1 - 0.4784))) = 0.733
1 - (344.528 / (592.897 / 0.5216)) = 0.733
1 - (344.528 / 1136.689) = 0.733
1 - 0.3030 = 0.697 != 0.733

Okay then...well then...and hrmm...

344.528 / 0.3030 = 1137.056 / 1407.66 = 0.8077...80.77%????

Let me try it again with that formula you had there...

Percentage diverted to shields=(Damage to Shields)/((1-Shield Resist) * (Base damage of shot))

0.915 = 344.528 / ((1 - Shield Resist) * 1407.66)
0.915 * (1 - Shield Resist) * 1407.66 = 344.528
(1 - Shield Resist) * 1407.66 = 344.528 / 0.915
1 - Shield Resist = 376.533 / 1407.66
1 - Shield Resist = 0.2675
1 - 0.2675 = Shield Resist
Shield Resist = 73.25%

Yeah, I may have rounded prematurely earlier for the 73.3%.

Okay then, working that other formula again then...

1 - (Shield Damage / (Hull Damage Prevented By Shields / (1 - Hull Damage Resistance))) = Shield Damage Resistance

1 - (344.528 / (592.897 / (1 - Hull Damage Resistance))) = 0.7325
1 - 0.7325 = 344.528 / (592.897 / (1 - HDR))
0.2675 * 592.897 / (1 - HDR) = 344.528
158.5999475 = 344.528 * (1 - HDR)
158.5999475 / 344.528 = 1 - HDR
0.46033979096038638369015000232202 = 1 - HDR
HDR = 1 - 0.46033979096038638369015000232202
HDR = 0.53966020903961361630984999767798
HDR = ~53.96%

31.2051 / 0.53966020903961361630984999767798 = 57.823607294547443291269885161628

57.823607294547443291269885161628 / 1407.66 = 0.04107782226855024884650404583609

4.1%? Could I have screwed the pooch enough on the rounding where that should have been the 4.25%?

This is all well over my head. I'm going to go dork around in Argala with the latest Apex build I'm running...

jarvisandalfred

virusdancer wrote: »

90.0% SPBR, 5% SPB, and 5% Consumed By The Magical Ether! (yeah, anyway - I'll call that ME).
91.5% SPBR, 3.5% SPB, and 5% ME?
93.0% SPBR, 2.0% SPB, and 5% ME?
94.5% SPBR, 0.5% SPB, and 5% ME?
96.0% SPBR, -1% SPB, and 5% ME?

I don't have pattern recognition on any of my toons, but my experience with combatlogs above suggested to me that the 'magical ether' isn't actually a thing, at least not any more - the numbers in the combatlogs I was seeing told me that with a resilient shield, 95% of the damage goes to the shields, and 5% to the hull - there's no 5% disappearing.

Besides that, I'm having a hard time following you and trying to figure out the issue, since I can't see the context for the lines - if you could upload one of those logs to dropbox or something, and send me a link, I might be able to figure it out later on today.

But, looking back at some of your other posts in this thread:

Looking at the log from that Apex run, there was no hull damage until the temporary hit points were drained from the second line. So in the time it took to drain the 6906 with the second line, there was 13319 drained from the first line on a boat with 14,043 shield capacity.

This speaks to really high shield resistance, actually. Before pattern recognition bugs, with your resilient shields, incoming would be split about 95% shields and 5% hull (hull in this case being attack pattern expertise). So, if 6906 was dropped from the temp hp pool, which we know has 0 resists, your shield had 131271 base damage coming at it (unless there were wonky plasma fires in there), so you had an average 89% shield resist.

1296.99 did 532.379 shield; 41%
1233.17 did 506.183 shield; 41%
1304.88 did 535.616 shield; 41%
1387.08 did 578.493 shield; 41.7%
1597.11 did 655.57 shield; 41%
1157.9 did 475.285 shield; 41% (and 3.8147e-006 hull)
1142.54 did 468.982 shield; 41%
1638.17 did 574.922 shield; 35.1%
17066.5 did 1779.43 shield; 10.4%
1069.11 did 375.207 shield; 35.1%
42600.8 did 4371.61 shield; 10.3%
1690.67 did 538.508 shield; 31.8%
No Hull Line did 478.028 shield; ???
16369.2 did 1448.3 shield; 8.8%

The three lines at ~10% indicate torpedoes to me, the ~30-40ish lines are probably energy weapons (innate 75% kinetic resist making that difference - also explains the higher base hits).

Now, looking at that first line:

If this is having that wonky 93.5% to shields, the base attack directed at shields is 1153.14, so your shield was sitting at 53.82% resist. If it was at the full 95%, the base attack at shields would be 1171.512, the shield dr would be 54.556%.

Either way, here's a summary of what I'm seeing:

• Without pattern recognition, damage to shields is unchanged.
  
• With pattern recognition, damage is being excessively diverted to temporary hp, and decreasing the amount going to shields.
  
• The way that the combatlog deals with temporary hp, by working with it as a shield, has been confusing.
  
• I'm really not seeing your shields taking more damage than intended in any situation; in fact, I'm seeing them taking less damage than they should with pattern recognition. If I had to guess, you originally had the issue because your cool tray in the bottom left doesn't show your shield facings through attack pattern expertise, and you didn't know to heal until attack pattern expertise wore off, and once you thought attack pattern expertise was the issue, confirmation bias led to your shields feeling week (when seriously the borg are just good at removing them, and their average outgoing dps is up ~2-3 times as much on average).

virusdancer

The two numbers after each link will be Shield Damage In/Shield Heal In.

Sarr Theln

upload_Infected_Space_30-12-2014_17-47 380,927 / 294,707
upload_Infected_Space_01-01-2015_20-54 320,556 / 296,030
upload_Infected_Space_02-01-2015_21-28 710,358 / 690,503
upload_Infected_Space_07-01-2015_23-09 561,411 / 405,324
upload_Infected_Space_10-01-2015_14-10 294,113 / 428,323
upload_Infected_Space_10-01-2015_15-30 679,066 / 725,367
upload_Infected_Space_11-01-2015_17-35 514,659 / 505,267
upload_Infected_Space_11-01-2015_22-19 404,894 / 458,145

Jan 18th, switched to Apex to chill - issue noticed

VDFail_ISA 622,897 / 832,857

Jan 19th, switched to Benthan - issue noticed

upload_Infected_Space_19-01-2015_19-49 896,694 / 705,097

Next day back to the Sarr Theln, split aggro though

upload_Infected_Space_20-01-2015_02-40 547,756 / 646,784

Another Apex run earlier today, not enough aggro

upload_Infected_Space_21-01-2015_01-16 197,268 / 244,897

edit1: This was a run that I just did in the Sarr Theln, trying something different. Heh, actually died...meh.

upload_Infected_Space_22-01-2015_01-34 997,924 / 981,976

edit2: I was sitting there thinking about the Secondary Shield thing, thinking I didn't have anything that could be tested along those lines when I remembered - duh - Hazari Shield Drone. So I hopped back in the Benthan for this one.

upload_Infected_Space_22-01-2015_02-52 1,046,427 / 501,133

I 2pc'd the Shield Drone for the CD reduction along with the Chromoelectric.

How's this, eh?

15:01:22:02:52:57.0::Sphere,C[33 Space_Borg_Cruiser_Raidisode],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Plasma Array,Pn.4g1l7r,Shield,,-1275.81,-736.394
15:01:22:02:52:57.0::Sphere,C[33 Space_Borg_Cruiser_Raidisode],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Plasma Array,Pn.4g1l7r,Shield,,-107.751,-172.132
15:01:22:02:52:57.0::Sphere,C[33 Space_Borg_Cruiser_Raidisode],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Plasma Array,Pn.4g1l7r,Shield,,-20.7319,-11.9664
15:01:22:02:52:57.0::Sphere,C[33 Space_Borg_Cruiser_Raidisode],,*,Willard the Rat,P[6114054@4209758 Willard the Rat@virusdancer],Plasma Array,Pn.4g1l7r,Plasma,,0,1594.76

3 shield lines and a hull.

edit3: This is going to be my last one, this was in the Sarr Theln again. I'm starting to see it now everywhere, whether it is happening or not - so I'm going to back away from it and just do other stuff.

upload_Infected_Space_22-01-2015_04-08 906,613 / 1,101,658

borticuscryptic

I think I know what's going on here, and it's totally our fault for bad Combat Log reporting.

Temporary Hit Points are reported as Shields in the Combat Log.

Which makes a certain amount of sense (to me) because that's what they technically are -- an additional Shield Pool with a higher priority than existing Hull and Shields, and with its own Fragility Scale that is not modified by things that usually modify Shields.

With that knowledge in-hand... do you still believe this to be a mechanical bug? Or just confusing Combat Log records?

virusdancer

borticuscryptic wrote: »

With that knowledge in-hand... do you still believe this to be a mechanical bug? Or just confusing Combat Log records?

I'd forgotten about this one, because like there at the end it had turned into a perception issue - I was looking for it, trying to see what was different, and I started seeing it everywhere. The original thread title had mentioned it as an issue with the Hirogen Apex Heavy Battle Cruiser - because up until I switched to that particular ship just to goof around, I had not seen the issue. D'Kyr, Fleet Nebula, Benthan, Hazari, and Sarr Theln...had just been normal, and a group of ships there with varying shield modifiers and capacities - things were just normal. Switching to the Apex was literally that WTF where did my shields go moment...which started up the whole thing. Could switch back to another ship and it was normal again...so that's why the thread was created. But then the more I looked at it, the more I started to see it...meh. So I walked away from it.

I didn't ask for it to be closed though, because of the Pattern Recognition aspect of it; and I had intended to come back to it at some point - but I guess I forgot. It probably would have come up again though as I started to look into the Vaadwaur Polaron (but to be honest, lol - I've been having so much fun with the audio and visual FX of them I didn't particularly care how or if they worked...they're just some awesome pew pew fun there).

But it gets into the "Shield Hardness" definition. Back when Intense Focus and Pattern Recognition were dropped out, the question was raised of whether Shield Hardness was going to be the opposite of Shield Penetration. But it was stated that Shield Hardness was just going to be the term for Shield Damage Reduction, the tooltips were changed with various patchnotes and that was that.

And while I can't say for any other mention of Shield Hardness out there, one thing that became clear while looking at Attack Pattern Expertise was that the temporary hit points were taking increased damage as Pattern Recognition stacked - an increase that matched up with the tooltip for Pattern Recognition as if it were Shield Counter-Penetration (or whatever one might want to call it).

So for the damage being displayed as faux hull damage, the second shield line, the following was seen for the damage while using resilient shields...

Before Pattern Recognition stacks...5% of the base.
1stack...6.5%
2stack...8.0%
3stack...9.5%
4stack...11.0%

...so because the temporary hit points are being treated as shields and the Pattern Recognition (if it worked as the opposite of Shield Penetration) was shunting more damage to shields, then the temporary hit points from Attack Pattern Expertise could disappear more than twice as fast with a 4stack.

Something that has little to do with the reason that the thread was originally created, but something that came to light while looking at the initial concern. I honestly couldn't say whether there was any validity to the original concern at this point, my playstyle has adapted to cover it - I'm not the same player I was when I created the thread sort of thing.

However, the Pattern Recognition interaction with Attack Pattern Expertise would be, for me, a question of is that working as intended...

Thanks.

shadowwraith77

Myself, I just assumed it was applying a similar mechanics adjacent to, as if we were using something like the Scimitars secondary shield console for the given moment or, like using the singularity power quantum absorption w/o the healing.

jarvisandalfred

borticuscryptic wrote: »

I think I know what's going on here, and it's totally our fault for bad Combat Log reporting.

Temporary Hit Points are reported as Shields in the Combat Log.

Which makes a certain amount of sense (to me) because that's what they technically are -- an additional Shield Pool with a higher priority than existing Hull and Shields, and with its own Fragility Scale that is not modified by things that usually modify Shields.

With that knowledge in-hand... do you still believe this to be a mechanical bug? Or just confusing Combat Log records?

Bumping this way, way late because I just ran across this in a log from a few days ago, explaining logs to a guy.

15:06:09:17:51:47.4::Cube,C[6780 Space_Borg_Battleship_Raidisode],,\*,Vel,P[6125801@10343987 Vel@jarvisandalfred],Plasma Array,Pn.4g1l7r,Shield,,-1175.39,-947.819

15:06:09:17:51:47.4::Cube,C[6780 Space_Borg_Battleship_Raidisode],,\*,Vel,P[6125801@10343987 Vel@jarvisandalfred],Plasma Array,Pn.4g1l7r,Shield,,-117.314,-65.8912

15:06:09:17:51:47.4::Cube,C[6780 Space_Borg_Battleship_Raidisode],,\*,Vel,P[6125801@10343987 Vel@jarvisandalfred],Plasma Array,Pn.4g1l7r,Plasma,,0,1804.83

Line 1 is damage to shields, yada yada.

Line 2 is damage to overshields (APE in this case), yada yada.

Line 3 is damage to hull, yada yada. All looks normal.

Since I know from log reading (before I slotted intense focus) that overshields have no resistances, calculations from it are really easy.

In this case, the first part (damage to shields) should be the base damage that made it through the shield and hit the overshield. This means that 117.314/1804.83, aka damage the overshield (at a known 0% resist) took/base damage of shot, should give me bleedthrough. And it does, at 6.5%. At 2 seconds into the log file of an ISA, I know I'm at one and only one stack, and I know that ship uses a resilient shield.

So I'm going to say this is a mechanical bug.

Edit: My shields acted 100% normally before hand, outside of my other question about resilient shields not absorbing 5%. I just slotted Intense focus, though, and that's when I got this problem.

jarvisandalfred

...Alright, this isn't Pattern Recognition, at least if my theory's right. I have some testing right now telling me the problem trait is Intense Focus, since I have log files detailing it with Intense Focus and ones detailing it not happening with Pattern Recognition.​​