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Drain build to kill shields: I'm confused by some stuff
avaultpress
Member Posts: 34 Arc User
Okay, I was fooling around with my Orb Weaver, and I was trying to see how much power I could siphon off enemies to feed my beams, when I noticed that I had a bunch of flow capacitor consoles laying around (MK XI and XII purples). So, I loaded up all 5 slots with them and checked my drains in space.
I was quite surprised to see that ES3 and subsystem targeting I (just the science ship built in one) could each drain over 50 power from subsystems, for a whopping 100 power drain on shields. :eek:
So, I thought to myself, "Hell, maybe I can do a drain build without polaron procs or the plasmonic leech console, since I can't afford the console and, quite frankly, I like my tetryon beams on my tholian ship."
After testing in actual battles (some Foundry test missions, plus Battlefield in the Delta Quadrant for Borg, Hirogen, and Khazon tests), I found myself confused by my results. Sometimes, I could drop enemy shields completely by applying ES3 and subsystem targeting. Other times, on the same class of target, it wouldn't work. And still other times, I'd slap ES3 and TR2 on the target, and get the shields to drop completely. But that doesn't make any sense, since TR does far less power drain to shield subsystems than the subsystem targeting is supposed to do, based on tooltips in actual combat.
Given my inconsistent results even when fighting the exact same type of ships in the same instance, there is obviously something going on that my testing is not accounting for. Would anyone be willing to answer some of my questions?
1) Do the same ships in the same patrol instance with the same difficulty (say, a Borg sphere in Battlefield) always have the same power levels and same resistance to drains? (Assuming they don't pop emergency power to shields)
2) Does distance somehow reduce the potency of ES3 or subsystem targeting in reducing enemy power levels?
3) I noticed a delay between applying ES and subsystem targeting and the shields actually dropping. Am I correct in assuming that power levels on the target do not drop instantly, and the speed is based on my Starship Electro-Plasma System? Or is there something else?
4) Tyken's Rift has a very weak drain on power compared to Energy Siphon and subsystem targeting. Yet, sometimes it's enough to put an enemy over the threshold for turning subsystems like shields completely off. Other times it's not. Is there a trick to making it more reliable?
5) Is there any way to parse the damage done by tetryon procs and tachyon beam to shields? What about non-damage procs like the polaron proc?
6) Are bosses in STFs (Voth dreadnought in Borg disconnected for example) immune to having power levels dropped to zero in any subsystem? Or are their power levels just really, really high?
What I'm trying to determine is whether or not I can consistently drop the shields on enemies in PvE without laying out the cash for plasmonic leech.
I was quite surprised to see that ES3 and subsystem targeting I (just the science ship built in one) could each drain over 50 power from subsystems, for a whopping 100 power drain on shields. :eek:
So, I thought to myself, "Hell, maybe I can do a drain build without polaron procs or the plasmonic leech console, since I can't afford the console and, quite frankly, I like my tetryon beams on my tholian ship."
After testing in actual battles (some Foundry test missions, plus Battlefield in the Delta Quadrant for Borg, Hirogen, and Khazon tests), I found myself confused by my results. Sometimes, I could drop enemy shields completely by applying ES3 and subsystem targeting. Other times, on the same class of target, it wouldn't work. And still other times, I'd slap ES3 and TR2 on the target, and get the shields to drop completely. But that doesn't make any sense, since TR does far less power drain to shield subsystems than the subsystem targeting is supposed to do, based on tooltips in actual combat.
Given my inconsistent results even when fighting the exact same type of ships in the same instance, there is obviously something going on that my testing is not accounting for. Would anyone be willing to answer some of my questions?
1) Do the same ships in the same patrol instance with the same difficulty (say, a Borg sphere in Battlefield) always have the same power levels and same resistance to drains? (Assuming they don't pop emergency power to shields)
2) Does distance somehow reduce the potency of ES3 or subsystem targeting in reducing enemy power levels?
3) I noticed a delay between applying ES and subsystem targeting and the shields actually dropping. Am I correct in assuming that power levels on the target do not drop instantly, and the speed is based on my Starship Electro-Plasma System? Or is there something else?
4) Tyken's Rift has a very weak drain on power compared to Energy Siphon and subsystem targeting. Yet, sometimes it's enough to put an enemy over the threshold for turning subsystems like shields completely off. Other times it's not. Is there a trick to making it more reliable?
5) Is there any way to parse the damage done by tetryon procs and tachyon beam to shields? What about non-damage procs like the polaron proc?
6) Are bosses in STFs (Voth dreadnought in Borg disconnected for example) immune to having power levels dropped to zero in any subsystem? Or are their power levels just really, really high?
What I'm trying to determine is whether or not I can consistently drop the shields on enemies in PvE without laying out the cash for plasmonic leech.
Post edited by avaultpress on
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Tykens is more powerful than energy siphon in that it keeps draining more as long as the target is in range. I use TR3 and aftershocks for extra effect. Having said that, the most effective single target drain for shields is target shields subsystem 3 as it can reach a 125 power drain.
Aceton assimilator (broken) would be as good as Tykens if devs ever fixed it. Oh yeah, bosses are not immune BUT it takes a massive amount of drain to get those shields down. ES has a 3 sec delay. Shield drains are garbage except tachyon beam 2-3 in a PvP match since DR made it garbage in PvE.
Yes, you can accomplish this but, it requires a very specific build focus and, doffs/boff + captain skill choices + gear selection.
However some EC/dilith/Zen purchases may be needed and, the leech is one of those investments but, that console can do you no wrong anyways.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
The USS Vampiris Sanguinis might be reporting for duty later.
Okay, now you've lost me.
The tooltips for TR1 show a power drain of 7.7 to all power levels per second versus ES3 having 57.3 power drain.
Are you telling me that Tyken's Rift increases its power drain by 7.7 every second? As in it drains 77 power at 10 seconds (discounting after shocks)? Do the after shocks continue to increase the drain, or does it go back down to 7.7 and climb back up?
As for target shields subsystem 3, you seem to be telling me that a good tactical BOFF is needed to run a shield dropping drain build. The crappy version built into science vessels just isn't going to cut it?
Yeah, I figured out Aceton was garbage.
EDIT: I didn't see shadowraith's post
Aha, there is a shutdown immunity built in to the system to prevent shutdown spam, it seems.
That explains much.
And I didn't realize that TR was draining more power later in its cycle. That also explains the "delay" I'm seeing sometimes, along with EPS skill.
So, it looks like if a really want to go into drains, I need a better TR, pop it after GW, and then slap ES on the target. Otherwise, they just fly (or crawl slowly) out of the TR before it reaches full effect. And I need to consider putting a tactical BOFF in my commander universal slot to get target subsystem shield 3, and stacking all that with plasmonic leech.
It's a tough decision.
The ones built into the ship are fine for PvE as NPCs are garbage in the power drain resistance department. Now, for PvP, target subsystems 3 is pure lolz and usually necessary to put the pain on the target when draining it.
I've built my klingon sci toon as drain build with this build as template:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=832281
I have changed minor things but it's still very similar.
I can drain every single dread in Borg Disconnected (normal) to a point where the shields collapse. But it takes some time. Doesn't happen with a snap.
Pre DR i was able to solo borg gates pretty easy... didn't try it in DR .. but I think the bunch of HP they got now will make it much harder if not impossible.
Maybe you'll get some inspiration out of the thread I posted above.
To get the best idea of how your drains work you really need a friend. The tool tips, and inflicting the abilities on others can only educate you so far.
Get a friend with a decent drain build to go into a pvp arena with you and have him use varying drains on you individually and in combination. You can also gauge the effectiveness of having more or less F.Caps by having the friend add or remove consoles.
There was a time when TR was garbage. If you sat in a rift your power levels would barely move. The rift would tick, your levels would momentarily drop by a tiny fraction (even with huge FC levels) and be fully restored a second later.
Fortunately that was fixed some time ago. Now if you sit in a TR your power levels drop every tick without being restored. So hear is the difference between TR and ES,
Energy Syphon: If the tool tip reads 50pts of drain and your target has no power insulation and 80 points in each subsystem then their subsystems will be reduced no lower then 30.
Tykens Rift: If the tool tip reads 10pts of drain and your target has no power insulation and 80 points in each subsystem then their subsystems will be reduced by 10 points for every tick that they remain in the rift. The total amount drained will be 10 times the number of ticks they remain in the area. In this example they would be completely drained after 8 ticks.
Provided you can keep your targets in the area Tykens is a devastating drain on a target. When other drain and control effects are use on a target first this typically is not difficult to accomplish.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
An interesting build. I am intrigued by being able to eventually drain the dreadnoughts in Borg Disconnected.
I thought as much. It also appears that simple numbers are not telling me everything I need to know here. Clearly, there is no magic number of drain that means everything is dead in space.
Yeah, one of the reasons I stopped playing just over a year ago was because I figured out TR and a bunch of other science abilities were garbage. GWs with 125 Aux not stopping Borg probes from moving to the gates, TRs that did nothing, and a few other problems.
It looks like things work much better now. I will have to try some of these suggestions out. Thanks for the suggestions.
With the upscale to Mk14, it's really not that difficult to completely drain ships of all their power now. A single Tyken 1 is usually enough for my Sarr Theln to completely immobilize( and disable) a swarm of mobs faster than a Gravity Well(wells are still great for pulling things into range - but it's best left to another ship). Tyken 3 and Quantum Manipulation(NR Rep trait, +100 all sci skills) is enough to shut down a Voth Citadel - OSS isn't even needed(I actually run EMP on it instead for the 8~ second AoE hard-disable).
The deceptive part of Tyken is that it doesn't really kick into gear until the second stack(plus it cannot be cleansed by HE or ST, unlike Energy Siphon). With enough FlowCap, the first tick is usually enough to butcher mob movement speed for the subsequent ones to kick in and shut everything down - you just have learn the best places to drop them(front of the pack/direction targets are moving).
If you're running a drain build though, I will say a Plasmonic Leech is a fundamental tool that can effectively replace Energy Siphon. Running both is kind of overkill, so it's more of a choice - one costs you a console slot, one costs you a bridge seat power(with less reliable up-time).
Not going to comment on PvP usage because.. well.. yeah.
I'm on the cusp of getting quantum manipulation, actually. I look forward to slapping +100 to sci skills for a few seconds.
I might need to run some plain tests of TR3 by itself and see how many ticks it takes with my current gear to shut down enemies. Maybe I need more patience.
If you're looking to just test, I'd suggest slotting a Tractor Beam and Tractor Beam Mines; maybe the Projected Singularity/Subspace Integration Circuit/Graviton Pulse Generator Uni Console. You won't really need them later, but they can be useful in the meantime.
So what's the current status of power siphon drones? I recall some three years ago, half a dozen of them could stop a ship cold. But then they got nerfed hard, if I recall correctly.
My Vesta is currently running a Part Gens build, with Elite Scorpions in the hangar. But it's going to be another 45-60 days before I have Science R&D to level 15 for the trait I need to make a Part Gens build truly effective. So I was thinking of perhaps trying a power drain build in the meantime. I already have a Plasmonic Leech console, thanks to a generous gift from a fleet member.
they just made that change on tribble last night, so unless they go and change it back, in about half a month's time you'll be leveling science at 3x the speed - and any other school afterwords, for that matter
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A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
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WOOHOO! Best news I have heard in ages, thank you.
And now here's something topically appropriate for your avatar...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8J1XqEX3VBc
At least the R&D progression will go quicker. Now of they could boost spec points more then what they're doing in Tribble, the player base would calm down.
Of course, the limitations of the Orb Weaver become apparent now. In order to run TR3, I have to put a science BOFF in the commander universal slot. Which means the only tactical BOFF I have is a tactical ensign.
So, even with EP2W, my DPS isn't quite as high as it might be with either ES3 or a tactical commander running APO3 and some other abilities. I've got to optimize my DPS so I can actually kill the larger ships when their shields drop, otherwise its a waste of time. (The smaller ships die quickly, it's the big ones that I get to 10% of their health before the shields go back up.)
I'm thinking that since I'm using beams, I might drop tactical team in exchange for either BFAW or something else. I don't want to become a torpedo boat (even if it is an obvious choice in this case) because I run a torpedo boat on my KDF character and want something different.
Maybe I need to get within 2 km before setting off TR3 and a tractor beam so my beams can do more damage.
Beams are effective no matter the range and, while not as damaging as say DHC's up close, they are still effective at any range so, 2km isn't really necessary unless you feel safe being that close.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
For PVE, I myself preferred both together, as it allowed my power starved Romulan to obtain 125-130 in all subsystems better benefiting the fleet elite amp sing core.
Combined with the doff that grant a 25% chance of a random subsystem shutting down when using ES. (yes lucho, I now it is not one of your favorite doffs by far, but 1 is all I ever use anyways and, has worked for me often enough)
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Eh, there's a strong case to use both on a Rommie ship, but it really is more of a preference thing. I, personally, just find using both to be overkill(the primary goal is taking ships offfline; putting a ship at -100 in all subsystems is points/gear/powers you could be putting towards damage instead).
As for doffs, use what you like; I personally like seeing people use things outside the box. I'm a tinkerer first and foremost.
Not sure why you feel the need to run the Uni as a Sci.
http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=protonicdrainweaver_0
(Non-fleet gear for accessibility; leech obviously optional; torp for bigger targets - they won't be able to shoot it down once they're offline)
Well, look at it this way, every doff on that toon was set up so that it is always attacking subsystem power, along with reducing sci skill cd's and, attacking subs after the intial subsystem is attacked.
It had no ordinary doff layout revolving around defense nor, around dps.
Always got me in a lot of trouble, as it grabbed agro quite often.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Well, I have two drain BOFF set ups I've been working with:
http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=draina_0
http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=drainb_0
I've been using that extra sci BOFF for extra hull and shield heals, along with photonic officer II. I could trim it down, but I was thinking that since I have all this Aux, I might as well use it to keep myself healed. My build is also influenced by my experiences in Crystaline Entity advanced, where my healing helps me get first place every time (and mainly by healing myself). (Although I obviously use GW when running that STF)
I suppose if I'm not running Crystalline Entity 24 hours a day, a change might be in order.
I notice in your build you have DEM. I thought everyone hated DEM. Is it not TRIBBLE anymore?
I do, actually, feel that safe being close. Again, with Lt. Commander sci, I have plenty of shield and hull healing.
DEM is fine. It's not as crucial for a drain build, every little bit helps to bypass the stupid amount of shields everything has now(and why I think drain has a new place in the endgame meta). You'd be fine running an Aux2Sif, RSP, or whatever in that slot.
I just don't find a lot of defensive skills to actually be needed on a good drain build - you're neutering incoming damage so much that you can just pour on the offensive buffs instead. I recently traded a fair amount of defense for offense on my Sarr Theln because I was noticing that my shields were just never getting dented, despite being near-point blank with a half-dozen mobs all the time.
http://www.stoacademy.com/tools/skillplanner/?build=sarrthelnvalrothis_0
Not me, I can carry every sort of manner of shield heal, use a fleet resA shield, have numerous traits running, have 17k shield HP and, yet the Borg sap it away like it's tissue paper.
At that point, I have to rely heavily on hull plating and, even that seems to not help enough since all they do is spam Omega plasma torpedoes, like they are energy weapons.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
You may very well be right. I've been swapping BOFFs in and out of the universal slot all night. I don't have the gear to make TR2 good enough to shut down some non-boss ships yet. But since subsystem targeting shares a cooldown with BFAW and Beam Overload, I feel like I'm wasting some of my draining potential.
However, I may soon have my chance to purchase an elite fleet warp core. I didn't realize how nice some of them were until I got a chance to browse.
I was fooling around with the ancient obelisk warp core, but cranking up Aux to 135 didn't make that much of a difference when I tested it out. I'll have to try again when I have better consoles and some other gear.
Well, I did just get the Reman Prototype shield. Even with no shield consoles, the damn thing's a beast. That stacking modifier that increases overall capacity is very nice.