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  • sbahpatamsbahpatam Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Having taken a break from the game prior to DR coming out, I find that coming back to the game hasn't been as enjoyable as before. Since coming back, I've deleted all but two toons, selling off everything they had just to transfer the EC to my main toons. I like the idea of an upgrade system but I agree that it can be expensive to upgrade.

    I have noticed that there are few players as of recent. Most of the people that I knew are no longer in the game. And I myself don't spend as much time in game either, another reason that I deleted most of my toons.

    If the next update doesn't turn this around, I'm afraid that I may yet leave the game again. I originally considered being a VIP or even doing the lifetime membership, but I won't do either now. Free to play only for me. I can't see investing any more cash into this game than absolutely needed. I don't mind supporting the game and the company with my financial contributions but when there are other options that are more inviting and fun to play, I can justify giving my limited expendable funds to a system that it's meeting my entertainment needs.

    I hope for the best but am preparing for the worst. I'm already searching out other gaming options. Best wishes to y'all.
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  • lystentlystent Member Posts: 1,019
    edited January 2015
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    Try playing some of your old games again. I recently started up dragon age 1 again and having a blast playing it again. Best part...it costs you nothing :) .

    Only reason I logged in today was to train my BOffs, as I suspect that the training manual system may become mandatory when it comes out. I have been playing better games than STO: Kerbal Space Program, Skyrim, Phantasy Star Online, Borderlands 2, Terraria...
  • innuwarriorinnuwarrior Member Posts: 305 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    And back up the on first page.

    More ppl should complaint or simply voice their displeasure about the prohibitive upgrading cost. We can only refine 8k per day per character so you either have to buy dilitium (with money) or have multiple characters simply to supply the necessary dilitium needed for upgrading a ship equipement in a reasonable amount of time.

    Its pay 2 win all over pure and simple.
    Jamal : Tactical space specialist. USS Bug Warrior and many others
    E'Mc2 : Science Reman torp T'Varo, deadly annoyance :P
    Kunmal: Tactical fed Klingon, ground specialist, USS Kanewaga
    Ka -tet Tier 5 fleet fully completed Starbase and fleet property
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  • dalmaciusdalmacius Member Posts: 106 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    I have learned the hard way how expensive it is to get rarity. I have one character that is lvl 60 with all the Specializations finished. I cost me a fortune to bring it's weapons and consoles to Epic. However, those consoles are the Fleet consoles, i.e. Neutroniums and Tactical. The weapons I bought from the exchange at Mk IV whose specs (mods) are what I wanted. Many already at Epic or UR. It didn't cost me much to turn those URs to Epic using the right accelerators. Once Epic, it was pretty easy to move them up to Mk XIV...a few moves everyday. Now, I'm starting to lvl up my next toon who is in another fleet. I have had to upgrade its fleet consoles (character bound) to UR (which is good enough) and a lot better than Mk XII. To do the Delta stuff and STFs to speed up leveling up, I simply passed on all my Account Bound Epic items from my main toon to this one, and it's working fine. Three days and it's at lvl 55. Heck, you can only play one character at a time anyway. I would have made it close to lvl 57 if we didn't get interrupted with the long Maintenance.

    Now I spend a little time every so often looking for bargains in the exchange, for cheap URs at low Mks for upgrading to Epic and sometimes, with luck, I find Epics with the mods I want at those low Mks which really are so cheap and easy to upgrade to Mk XIV. It's the upgrade from UR XIV to Epic XIV that kills you with the cost. Something I have learned not to repeat. I'd rather buy it from the Exchange for 100M ECs if it is something I need than risk spending more than thrice that amount and that does not include the Dilithium that goes with it. If you start crafting from MkII common you will end up with lots of stock worth peanuts to sell mainly because you don't know what you'll get. If you have the patience I guess it works as well.

    So I am passing this on to you so that you won't go through my painful learning curve.
  • lystentlystent Member Posts: 1,019
    edited January 2015
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    Define reasonable amount of time. Because 3-5 days for 3 items seems like a reasonable amount of time to me. And that isn't using alts. Just one character. Course this is for just MK XIV upgrade...like I said, if your going for gold...well you have been warned (not only by fellow players by hell even the devs have said it's a giant waste of money) and if you do it anyways, who's fault is that exactly?

    And please stop tossing around the pay top win hyperbole. It's NOT PAY TO WIN. It's pay to convience. Unless you think having a crappy shuttle or a crappy T5 ship makes you win at the game (the only thing you can't get for free are the vet rewards). The BEST items are all available for you to get while spending zero real money...which means it's not pay to win. Stop tossing that term around just because you don't like something...it just makes you look ignorant.

    It is actually Pay-To-Not-Toss-Your-Life-Into-Being-A-Grinder.
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  • kayajaykayajay Member Posts: 1,990 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    The ULTIMATE kick in the teeth would be if they now changed it and everyone who's broken their back upgrading things until now has suddenly done it for nothing.

    It's a sucky system, with this ridiculous chance nonsense and for gear that really isn't worth the time and effort.
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  • coupaholiccoupaholic Member Posts: 2,188 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Yes, we definitely needed another thread on this subject. Good job.
  • lystentlystent Member Posts: 1,019
    edited January 2015
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    Which is STILL a P2C model...not P2W.

    If you have no life.
  • staq16staq16 Member Posts: 1,181 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    One thing I note in here is a lack of PVP comments.

    If you aren't PVPing, why do you need Mk XIV, let alone Mk XIV Epic?

    Consider this fine ship:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Ark_Royal_(R09)

    The Ark was (compared to its US counterparts) small, underpowered and outdated... yet still filled a NATO fleet carrier slot. Its crew prided themselves on the fact that their "obsolete" ship could stand alongside much larger and more modern vessels, albeit at the cost of a punishing crew regime.

    It seems everyone wants to be the USS Nimitz in the picture linked above. But I'd argue the Ark had more heart...
  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,225 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    It's that and the recent nerfs to rewards. Apparently Cryptic doesn't have a psychologist on staff because they would have explained that the reason people play games, any games, in general is due to the sense of reward which is where almost all of the mechanics in classic mmos stem from. Leveling, to getting drops, to getting upgrades to getting gear, to getting fun additions like toys or pets or mounts, all stem from this basic principle. when you remove that aspect of your game you basically are breaking the reason why people login. It is no longer a rewarding experience so you have fewer people logging in.

    It's not limited to the new costs for upgrades but that is part of the bigger picture yes.

    I think I totally agree on that one.

    One playes a mmopg to progress ones toons. Granted, DR gave that opportunity as well as added a lot more depth to the game but it was just implemented right a long a lot of frustration.

    I think the pure upgrade demands are not even the main issue. It’s rather the set higher difficulty that came along with a reward nerf PLUS the new upgrade demands which generated that frustration.

    Instead of a felt progression there is too much of a simple feeling of “regain” involved which is not a satisfactory game experience but rather the opposite. All difficulties have been reset and many mechanisms of comparison are simply not available anymore.

    I bet if they had just abandoned the pre DR normal mode and placed the pre DR Elite as current normal but with same rewards (1000 Dil) things would have been half as bad. Peeps would have embraced the new higher settings with more enthusiasm IF their reward also would manage to justify the player’s higher investment effort.

    Having to play one PvE to get enough resources to apply a single tech upgrade is just a bad joke and a certain way to ensure empty queue lists.
    animated.gif
    Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
    felisean wrote: »
    teamwork to reach a goal is awesome and highly appreciated
  • lystentlystent Member Posts: 1,019
    edited January 2015
    staq16 wrote: »
    One thing I note in here is a lack of PVP comments.

    If you aren't PVPing, why do you need Mk XIV, let alone Mk XIV Epic?

    Consider this fine ship:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Ark_Royal_(R09)

    The Ark was (compared to its US counterparts) small, underpowered and outdated... yet still filled a NATO fleet carrier slot. Its crew prided themselves on the fact that their "obsolete" ship could stand alongside much larger and more modern vessels, albeit at the cost of a punishing crew regime.

    It seems everyone wants to be the USS Nimitz in the picture linked above. But I'd argue the Ark had more heart...

    Uh... yeah... just assume I have been talking about PvP the whole time; I made that clear in another thread, and sorta forgot to note it in this thread...
  • generalzod34generalzod34 Member Posts: 54 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    This all the replies that can be made? Everyone loves the upgrade system??
  • thatcursedwolfthatcursedwolf Member Posts: 1,617 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Any complaints are just a reporting error.
    This is my Risian Corvette. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
  • ghyudtghyudt Member Posts: 1,112 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    The only thing I don't like about the upgrade system is that the materials required to make the actual tech upgrade items are so rare, and they require so much (rubidium especially). I managed to finally get all my phasers up to mkIV, and one of them turned epic in the process. But the endless grind for rubidium is what takes the fun out if it. I'd actually prefer to be able to go mine for it somewhere, much like we do for dilithium. Mine up some rubidium ore, and refine it so we can use it. Hell, let me salvage it from destroyed ships.
  • kayajaykayajay Member Posts: 1,990 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    ghyudt wrote: »
    The only thing I don't like about the upgrade system is that the materials required to make the actual tech upgrade items are so rare, and they require so much (rubidium especially). I managed to finally get all my phasers up to mkIV, and one of them turned epic in the process. But the endless grind for rubidium is what takes the fun out if it. I'd actually prefer to be able to go mine for it somewhere, much like we do for dilithium. Mine up some rubidium ore, and refine it so we can use it. Hell, let me salvage it from destroyed ships.

    I never know which one it is, but there is an assignment that rewards it.
  • inthefluxxinthefluxx Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    I hope the next specialization is something like "miner" or "trader" that increases how much your stuff is sold to vendors, or with mining allows you to go to special asteroid areas and mine for materials. You could have it be a primary, where every 5 points allows you to mine better quality of stuff
  • heckgoblinheckgoblin Member Posts: 685
    edited January 2015
    If the devs wanted to throw their upset player base a bone, they'd lower the dilithium cost of upgrading by about a third, and improve the quality upgrade bonus on experimental tech upgrades from 2x to 5x.

    This would go a long way to get me to start chasing epics. Currently, I've upgraded my ship's gear to XIV, and am skipping quality upgrades altogether.
    I AM WAR.
  • kanonistiskanonistis Member Posts: 53 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    The Upgrade System is a Jugglery!:P

    Its expensive, on how much Dillithium an item needs, Reputation Gear is the expensivest of all other cause its in MK XII Very rare quality and need many points to be upgraded.

    And if you look the quality improvments, if you set experimental or/and quality improvments (which are booth expensive to get), the upgrade change does not count! Why so?
    The upgrading is much expensive, why my superior experimental and the quality improvements, if green (+1,5%) or blue (+2%) does not matter, they do not count on rarity beam. Only the Tech points accelerators work. Have you noticed that? Its count a little bit but not on every klick. As example, if i start with 0% and i set a experimental it should goes higher (rarity beam) right? and if i set additional an quality improvment with 1,5% it should goes more higher right? Why this not work? Normaly, if i upgrade a gear with experimentals it should give higher rarity change on every klick! and if i use additional rarity accelerators they must go higher with every klick!

    Can PWE this clarify?

    Juggle!:mad:
    Fleet Leader: Hellenic Space Force
    Characters FED: TAC Ponos - TAC Tromos - ENG Athena - ROM TAC Phovos - SCI Martyrium - REM Apatros
    Fleet: La Familia: SCI Stave
    KDF Fleet: Syndicate of Shadows: ENG Sha'Kal


  • darpinkdarpink Member Posts: 341 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    heckgoblin wrote: »
    If the devs wanted to throw their upset player base a bone, they'd lower the dilithium cost of upgrading by about a third, and improve the quality upgrade bonus on experimental tech upgrades from 2x to 5x.

    This would go a long way to get me to start chasing epics. Currently, I've upgraded my ship's gear to XIV, and am skipping quality upgrades altogether.
    Yep! 100% in favor of that!
    The dilitium cost of upgrading is just too high. Even the Paying players that don't have hours per day to play or only play 2-3 days a week are struggling, or so I've heard. I play way more than I should and for free and have 5 toons total. Only my main toon is able to do any upgrading, it took the combined resources, dil etc just to partially upgrade my main toon's gear to mk13 and some to mk14.
  • jackal1701apwjackal1701apw Member Posts: 669 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    heckgoblin wrote: »
    If the devs wanted to throw their upset player base a bone, they'd lower the dilithium cost of upgrading by about a third, and improve the quality upgrade bonus on experimental tech upgrades from 2x to 5x.

    This would go a long way to get me to start chasing epics. Currently, I've upgraded my ship's gear to XIV, and am skipping quality upgrades altogether.

    No if they wanted to throw the disgruntled playerbase a bone they would:

    1) Reduce the dil cost of the upgrade system by a factor of 50%

    2) Double quality rarity chances across the board

    3) Either make experimental 5x rarity increase as you have said, or remain 2x but reduce dil cost to match Superior tech

    4) Completely redo how the system works at mk14. After 4 attempts there should be 100% chance of mk increase.

    5) Reduce TP requirements for set items and ship equipment.

    6) Increase the stat bonus for mk 13/14 set items and ship equipment (deflectors/engines/shields/cores). Weapons got a bonus, basic consoles (tactical, sci eng) already have decent increases in stats given costs of upgrading but Set based consoles and ship equipment stat increases are well out of whack with the cost of upgrading.


    Listen Cryptic. You have already fleeced the early adopters in this system. Those holding off now are holding off because they see the system for what it is, a theiving money grab, and will not participate in the future. Problem is this shoots yourself in the foot as it means the variation in player ability increases as the playerbase becomes polarised. This makes balancing existing/new content and reward systems much harder. It also means those getting left further and further behind are LESS inclined to spend money on the game and buy shinies for that +1%...
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    ...#LLAP...
  • origcaptainquackorigcaptainquack Member Posts: 614 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    yes for the most part it is the grind, everything a grind. level up char, level up items, level up ships. there is just so much dilithum you can grind.

    not too mention that cryptic doesnt know how to fix anything. they fix one thing break two other things. then dont tell you that its broken until after you tell them then they say its a known issue. lol you got to love that.

    did i mention the outragous comment on a pod cast by geko saying best expansion ever and people love it? lmao
  • redheadguyredheadguy Member Posts: 423 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Noticed player base seems to be shrinking, I believe the upgrade system is to blame.
    Upgrading is horrendously expensive.....

    Everyone else agree?

    Sadly I must agree.
    [SIGPIC]

    [/SIGPIC]
  • redheadguyredheadguy Member Posts: 423 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    No if they wanted to throw the disgruntled playerbase a bone they would:

    1) Reduce the dil cost of the upgrade system by a factor of 50%

    2) Double quality rarity chances across the board

    3) Either make experimental 5x rarity increase as you have said, or remain 2x but reduce dil cost to match Superior tech

    4) Completely redo how the system works at mk14. After 4 attempts there should be 100% chance of mk increase.

    5) Reduce TP requirements for set items and ship equipment.

    6) Increase the stat bonus for mk 13/14 set items and ship equipment (deflectors/engines/shields/cores). Weapons got a bonus, basic consoles (tactical, sci eng) already have decent increases in stats given costs of upgrading but Set based consoles and ship equipment stat increases are well out of whack with the cost of upgrading.


    Listen Cryptic. You have already fleeced the early adopters in this system. Those holding off now are holding off because they see the system for what it is, a theiving money grab, and will not participate in the future. Problem is this shoots yourself in the foot as it means the variation in player ability increases as the playerbase becomes polarised. This makes balancing existing/new content and reward systems much harder. It also means those getting left further and further behind are LESS inclined to spend money on the game and buy shinies for that +1%...

    ^^^^THIS! Cryptic, read this twice. Then read it again! And read it one more time, maybe by then it'll start to sink in! :cool:
    [SIGPIC]

    [/SIGPIC]
  • redheadguyredheadguy Member Posts: 423 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    reyan01 wrote: »
    It would appear that your sarcasm detector is offline.

    Anyway - I am not particularly anti Delta-Rising; I find the XP grind annoying, but can live with it. The slow queues are a concern, but they do [at present] pop eventually. The nerfed rewards - sad that this happened but not game-breaking.

    However, the upgrade system? No - hate everything about it. It's a nasty, transparent, cash-grab. Forget lock boxes - if there is one thing in this game that screams 'money for nothing' it's the upgrade system.

    I can't describe my loathing for a 'system' that unashamedly allows anyone who indulges it to pump large amounts of money/resources and, more often than not, gives NO return.


    So far as I am concerned, a portion of the system is blatant false advertising. The whole 'quality improvement' thing is a disgusting insult. If you buy something called a 'upgrade token' it should damn well upgrade something or, if MkXIV, improve the quality of said item (which is still an upgrade in itself). It should NOT offer a poxy chance to do so - it should do EXACTLY what it says on the proverbial tin.

    I guess it's a by-product of the world of MMO purchases though, because there is no way in hell that this system would work in ANY other scenario. Imagine walking into an Apple store to upgrade your iphone 5s to an iphone 6. The box is for an iphone 6, and you therefore assume that the content of the box is as advertised. But on opening the iphone 6 box you find an iphone 5s in there. And upon query being told 'oh sorry.... there was a CHANCE that the box would contain a iphone 6, but you weren't lucky".

    Of course, that goes back to what I said about it being a nasty, transparent, cash-grab. Because there are undoubtedly players who have/will pump endless resources and/or cash into this shameless system in their attempt to achieve "I've got Epic everything" bragging rights.

    And then there is the whole 'locked into one build' scenario that occurs when the system is indulged.

    It's a TRIBBLE system and was not, in my opinion, necessary in the first place.

    Read the section I've highlighted in red. That sums up how I feel about the horrible up-grade system
    [SIGPIC]

    [/SIGPIC]
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