well, on a purely hypothetical note, you're more likely to get four guys who've run together from a DPS channel, than you will pugging, that's a certainty, and as anyone who's been here long enough knows, Teamwork is "OP' (lol).
so really, it's a no-brainer-four players who know each other and can work together are automatically going to be more effective than four strangers.
Hell, TWO players that can work together will be better than four strangers.
...regardless of gear. I agree. That's my point. Maybe I should have used T4 ships instead? That has been known to happen. At any rate, better gear is not the #1 key to better success. Most of us complete the same things on characters with MK XII stuff as our better equipped alts....just slower. I have as much confidence in my Sci alt (still with some MK XII) as my main.
mk 14 gear -> mostly wins, except when pug-teamed with people who haven't upgraded
As I was sitting here replying to this thread, it literally dawned on me that I had not run an actual ISA. I'd done a couple of Discos and said TRIBBLE it after the second one (where the first with two afk folks got further than the second with all five there)...so I'd just been off testing things, dorking around in CCAs, hitting up Ker'rat, bouncing between Argala and Gerren or just hitting up whatever random stuff cause I was mainly dorking around and testing stuff...heh, had even run some hour long solo SB24s testing stuff. I'm not big on "achievements" and all that...I'm casual, happy-go-lucky, and generally spend too much time apologizing for my wheee builds and piloting to want to be a burden to anybody...but yeah, I realized I hadn't actually run an ISA.
VR13 Polaron Beam Array [Acc]x2[Over]
VR13 Bio-Neural Gel Pack
Yeah, lolwut...[Acc]x2[Over]? Meh, like I said - I spend most of my time dorking around testing things. Had a VR13, 2x VR12, and a UR11 that also had a [CrtD] mod on it.
The build's there, linked, in all of its exquisite fail...
Okay then, let's be fair here and break down some of the damage I did, eh?
36.7% (6,363) came from "pets" which included Elite Scorps, Elite Widows, Photonic, Nimbus, Aceton Assimilators, and Tyken's Rifts.
18.7% (3,240) came from TS3 Neutronic, which imho is a broken ability and doing too much damage because of the mechanics involved (no reduction in damage on the individual torp along with boost from the actual TS3 results in a higher boost for damage with the Neutronics compared to other torps - significantly higher).
21.7% (3,753) came from regular shots with the four Polaron Arrays. Yeah, no FAW or the like on this build...hrmmm. TT1, APB1, and TS3 for that Neutronic torp.
The overall CrtH% for each of the players was:
Player A: 8.468%
Player B: 24.682%
Player C: 9.692%
Player 9.536%
Player E: 20.129%
My actual CrtH ranged from 14.5% to 66.7% not counting the 100% CrtH from five Overloads and one from the Isokinetic Cannon. The pets with their 6149 attacks and only 4.708% CrtH dragged my average down.
Just more fail lumped more fail in the build, though there are obviously some things in the build there that somebody building for DPS would have, eh? Stuff that one might have learned about either through testing, reading the forums, watching videos, or the like right?
Weirdly I'd rather fly with the four newbie players (so long as they're not the kind that stubbornly insist they're hot stuff). The mission would have some life to it instead of being Procedural Run #37,464 thats over in 2 minutes. I'm frankly surprised nobody has scripted an ISA Bot yet with how routine its gotten.
Whatchoo talkin' bout, Willis? So you're one of those getting a 10k invite?
Lol, I hope not. I pride myself on being below average...maybe average on my very best days. The upload said Players A, B, and C were sent the invites though...so apparently the other two guys doing 10k+ hadn't been uploaded or hadn't run before either.
I had always held off from running it because I was always goofing around testing various things, so I never had a build that I felt would be ready for hitting it up...I didn't want to impose my goofballness on anybody else. I didn't expect that particular outcome in the least.
It's literally a hodgepodge of different things I've been testing. The Spire core was there from testing the stuff in that one thread. The Counter-Command deflector was there from testing visual FX on the Sarr Theln from that one deflector thread. Was running the 2pc Nukara instead of the 2pc MACO testing the difference without the CD reduction for things. The [Acc]x2[Over] were there from testing the proc rate for the [Over] mod. Running Widows and Scorps because of testing them against one another. Had a Rare EWO Subsystem Targeting DOFF because I was testing maintaining Beam Barrage by spacebaring the four Subsystem Targeting abilities on the Sarr Theln. Just all sorts of mixed testing stuff going on with the build.
Weirdly I'd rather fly with the four newbie players (so long as they're not the kind that stubbornly insist they're hot stuff). The mission would have some life to it instead of being Procedural Run #37,464 thats over in 2 minutes. I'm frankly surprised nobody has scripted an ISA Bot yet with how routine its gotten.
You have time to run 1 STF. Would you rather team with:
1. 4 players from the 30k DPS channel- all of them using white MK X gear, or
2. 4 new players with gold MK XIV gear?
OK, now change the 30k DPS people to having white MK IX gear. Is the answer the same? Mine would be.
your posit is kind of misleading, there are no new players with epic loot and of course experienced players with white gear (and killer boffs, doffs, and traits, right? and all the specialization points, don't forget that) will have a chance right? lets put them on teamspeak too, right, because like that's a good comparison.
(sarcasm -> it's not a good comparison)
let me tell you how things unfolded in pug,
After people initially got destroyed by the new ques there was a big sorting out of players, of those that played the ques a lot, a lot just up and left the game. But, some people stayed (like myself) and I'm guessing their thinking was like mine which went like this.
"Ok, these games aren't our personal property, it's someone elses sandbox and everything was just changed ... ... So, I'm a guest here, just playing in it ... ... Ok, lets deal with the new world, lets see, can I figure this out?"
And I started the process of upgrading a ship.
Over some time, the fail rate on pugs started to go down. And then, before Thanksgiving during the weekdays, I started making bonus timers for the first time (in pug). I remember this because of how shocked I was. In particular when we (in pug) made the bonus timers in 3 games back to back.
Then Thanksgiving hit. And a bunch of people with some extra holiday free time, that had not been playing and upgrading their ships, came out to play. It was fail city all over again. People were popping up in chat like they hadn't seen it before (because they hadn't) saying "what happened to the ques?".
After Thanksgiving, the un-upgraded people filtered out and the pugs started winning and making bonus timers again. This cycle played out every weekend for a while. Now it's different, basically there's a critical mass of players who have upgraded enough such that the ques work again.
But, they are still empty of course. Why?
Because spending $$ to buy mounds of upgrade dilthium stinks, and it's the only path to game participation past mk 12.
And a lot of people left the game because of that.
And I dont care how much $$ the devs/owners are making with this new model, the game is much worse off as it is now. It's always better to have more customers, because even if they aren't spending $$ today, keep them entertained and around long enough and eventually they will spend the $$.
your posit is kind of misleading, there are no new players with epic loot and of course experienced players with white gear (and killer boffs, doffs, and traits, right? and all the specialization points, don't forget that) will have a chance right? lets put them on teamspeak too, right, because like that's a good comparison.
(sarcasm -> it's not a good comparison)
I'm using a fictional, theoretical scenario that pits gear vs skill. It's a pretty easy A vs B choice. You're over thinking it.
After people initially got destroyed by the new ques there was a big sorting out of players, of those that played the ques a lot, a lot just up and left the game. But, some people stayed (like myself) and I'm guessing their thinking was like mine which went like this.
"Ok, these games aren't our personal property, it's someone elses sandbox and everything was just changed ... ... So, I'm a guest here, just playing in it ... ... Ok, lets deal with the new world, lets see, can I figure this out?"
And I started the process of upgrading a ship.
I see and understand your personal experience. It is not, however, mine. It's not ridiculous to assume that it isn't even the majority.
Over some time, the fail rate on pugs started to go down. And then, before Thanksgiving during the weekdays, I started making bonus timers for the first time (in pug). I remember this because of how shocked I was. In particular when we (in pug) made the bonus timers in 3 games back to back.
So, after running several times, you improved. Maybe I'm reading this incorrectly, but what I am quoting looks exactly like what someone would say if they had improved as a player.
Then Thanksgiving hit. And a bunch of people with some extra holiday free time, that had not been playing and upgrading their ships, came out to play. It was fail city all over again. People were popping up in chat like they hadn't seen it before (because they hadn't) saying "what happened to the ques?".
If you looked at everyone in question's build, and saw that they had not upgraded their equipment, then I see what you're saying. However, the more glaring part I bolded.
After Thanksgiving, the un-upgraded people filtered out and the pugs started winning and making bonus timers again. This cycle played out every weekend for a while. Now it's different, basically there's a critical mass of players who have upgraded enough such that the ques work again.
Several reasons. Some don't like the added difficulty. Some don't like queuing with leechers/griefers. I only PUG because of my odd fascination with "what is the average" player.
Because spending $$ to buy mounds of upgrade dilthium stinks, and it's the only path to game participation past mk 12.
That's a misconception. Is 15k useless in ISA? I did 16k in a SCI ship, with a SCI captain, with little rep gear, no fleet anything, and MK XI+XII weapons from FEs. I've only recently starting upgrading it, because, you know, ridiculous prices.
And I dont care how much $$ the devs/owners are making with this new model, the game is much worse off as it is now. It's always better to have more customers, because even if they aren't spending $$ today, keep them entertained and around long enough and eventually they will spend the $$.
I can't disagree that DR has been, in general, a raging disappointment. I'd say "failure," but that's subjective.
Here's the catch...the new model isn't making you improve your game per se. That may happen, but it's a side consequence.
Basically, it's like instead of you improving your driver skills, you would simply get a better car.
Here's the catch...the new model isn't making you improve your game per se. That may happen, but it's a side consequence.
Basically, it's like instead of you improving your driver skills, you would simply get a better car.
...which is like putting lipstick on a pig.
I know someone in game, right now. None of this is fabricated:
He regularly would do 1-2k dps if we took him on a STF. His build was awful, his piloting was worse. He would fly around in circles, get lost, forget to fire, it was a mess. We knew we would have to constantly ask him what he was doing, and, most of the time, he wouldn't know.
We helped him with his build, and attempted to keep steering him in the right direction. He optimized his build. His piloting, and lack of paying attention, however, did not improve.
He bought the Delta Pack, and started flying the T6 ships. Optimized, with upgraded weapons. If you looked at his builds, you would think he was, at the very least, competent. You would be mistaken.
Last I heard, he topped out at 4.5k DPS. You can throw infinite money at this game, and still be dreadful at playing it.
Alternately, you could watch the T1 ISA run Ryan did, for a demonstration of skill>gear.
In reading that question, I asked myself the simplest of questions...
"What reason do I have to hit the queues?"
Atmosphere Assault...none.
Azure Nebula Rescue...none.
Borg Disconnected...none.
Crystalline Catastrophe...Fleet Marks.
Federation Fleet Alert...Fleet Marks, but I'm fine getting them from CCA.
Federation Starbase Blockade...Fleet Marks, but I'm fine getting them from CCA.
Gorn Minefield Fleet Action...none.
Hive Onslaught...none.
Infected Conduit...none.
Khitomer Vortex...none.
Klingon Scout Force...none.
No Win Scenario...Fleet Marks, but I'm fine getting them from CCA.
Starbase 24...none outside of some solo SB24 testing.
Starbase Fleet Defense...Fleet Marks, but I'm fine getting them from CCA.
Storming the Spire...none.
Breach...none.
Cure Found...none.
The Vault...none.
Undine Assault...none.
Vault Shuttle Event...none.
Viscous Cycle...none.
So yeah, the only queue I hit up on a somewhat regular basis (which isn't really that regular) would be CCA.
EC? Far better sources elsewhere.
Dil? Far better sources elsewhere.
SP? Far better sources elsewhere.
Implants? Easier sources elsewhere.
Isos? Easier sources elsewhere.
APCs? BHE's ludicrous easy compared to Space.
BNPs? Sure, but how many runs will you actually need?
Various Marks? I'm in no rush, those daily boxes come from all sorts of easier sources elsewhere.
I know someone in game, right now. None of this is fabricated:
He regularly would do 1-2k dps if we took him on a STF. His build was awful, his piloting was worse. He would fly around in circles, get lost, forget to fire, it was a mess. We knew we would have to constantly ask him what he was doing, and, most of the time, he wouldn't know.
We helped him with his build, and attempted to keep steering him in the right direction. He optimized his build. His piloting, and lack of paying attention, however, did not improve.
He bought the Delta Pack, and started flying the T6 ships. Optimized, with upgraded weapons. If you looked at his builds, you would think he was, at the very least, competent. You would be mistaken.
Last I heard, he topped out at 4.5k DPS. You can throw infinite money at this game, and still be dreadful at playing it.
Alternately, you could watch the T1 ISA run Ryan did, for a demonstration of skill>gear.
You are actually helping me prove my point as he doubled his damage. He however, improved nothing.
Now look at it from the opposite angle. His build is still the 2k one, but he became quite competent and now he can even do 7k with that build (mere example). Will it suffice for Advanced? I'm guessing no.
You are actually helping me prove my point as he doubled his damage. He however, improved nothing.
Now look at it from the opposite angle. His build is still the 2k one, but he became quite competent and now he can even do 7k with that build (mere example). Will it suffice for Advanced? I'm guessing no.
Even after optimizing his build (read:slotting what he was told worked), he was still around 2k, yet he should have been able to perform decently, at least 10k+. When I say we attempted to help him gain skill, I mean well over 10 game hours. Even after fixing his build, he gained virtually no usefulness.
Buying the Delta Pack, and upgrading everything, got him 2.5k. Without having bought the Delta pack or upgrading his weapons, had his skill improved to a competent level, he would have placed over 10k.
So, placing the blame of his ineptitude on his ship was a complete and utter failure.
I leaned by doing a lot of normal stfs. Once I became comfortable with them and knew them well enough I moved on to elite, now advanced. I did poorly since the higher difficulty exposed some holes in my build. After figuring out the problems I respeced and closed those holes and did much better. What's different now compared to back then is the rewards. Normal stfs still granted good rewards back then, now players wether ready or not need to hop into advanced to get bnps and what not for their rep gear. There is no reason at all to do normal since it doesn't reward you with what you need. So players that don't belong there have little choice. I really think cryptic should look at rewards for the queues and adjust them. Obviously this won't solve all the problems, but it might keep some of the noobs out of advanced until they have better gear and are more prepared for the challenge.
Even after optimizing his build (read:slotting what he was told worked), he was still around 2k, yet he should have been able to perform decently, at least 10k+. When I say we attempted to help him gain skill, I mean well over 10 game hours. Even after fixing his build, he gained virtually no usefulness.
Buying the Delta Pack, and upgrading everything, got him 2.5k. Without having bought the Delta pack or upgrading his weapons, had his skill improved to a competent level, he would have placed over 10k.
So, placing the blame of his ineptitude on his ship was a complete and utter failure.
OK, that is an issue, but that's not exactly what I am saying. What I'm saying is that the way the game is right now, it's not really doing anything to make people improve their gameplay. Even those 10K you mention would be "so so" for Advanced. The game is actually making you be lazy and just improve your build untill it "magically" provides the DPS for minimum requirements.
OK, that is an issue, but that's not exactly what I am saying. What I'm saying is that the way the game is right now, it's not really doing anything to make people improve their gameplay. Even those 10K you mention would be "so so" for Advanced. The game is actually making you be lazy and just improve your build untill it "magically" provides the DPS for minimum requirements.
But that's basically been Cryptic's gameplan for a few years now. The game's not designed/developed for either the DPS or PvP crowd. Powercreep isn't powercreep for the intended audience of the game...it's the "magic" that allows them to do stuff. It's not meant as a game for gamers...it's meant for Star Trek fans with limited gaming experience if any gaming experience.
OK, that is an issue, but that's not exactly what I am saying. What I'm saying is that the way the game is right now, it's not really doing anything to make people improve their gameplay. Even those 10K you mention would be "so so" for Advanced. The game is actually making you be lazy and just improve your build untill it "magically" provides the DPS for minimum requirements.
I agree that Post-DR HP sponges require more DPS...and that upgrading weapons does increase your damage. I also believe that it's a monetization thing put into place by Cryptic. But the skill you have determines how much extra you're gaining with these upgrades, and whether or not it is "necessary."
Someone said something in one of the DPS channels recently: "Face it, 15k is good enough for this game. We just all want to be better." It's not elitist, or OCD, it's just many people's type of fun. Skill and MK XII can get you 15k DPS.
It's very, VERY easy to just say "I'm going to buy this and this and this and I'll be better. I don't have time to keep failing at this nonsense." That's how they're making money. And I can see how it makes people mad.
But that's basically been Cryptic's gameplan for a few years now. The game's not designed/developed for either the DPS or PvP crowd. Powercreep isn't powercreep for the intended audience of the game...it's the "magic" that allows them to do stuff. It's not meant as a game for gamers...it's meant for Star Trek fans with limited gaming experience if any gaming experience.
That could be a good thing. It's the implementation that's faulty.
I agree that Post-DR HP sponges require more DPS...and that upgrading weapons does increase your damage. I also believe that it's a monetization thing put into place by Cryptic. But the skill you have determines how much extra you're gaining with these upgrades, and whether or not it is "necessary."
Someone said something in one of the DPS channels recently: "Face it, 15k is good enough for this game. We just all want to be better." It's not elitist, or OCD, it's just many people's type of fun. Skill and MK XII can get you 15k DPS.
It's very, VERY easy to just say "I'm going to buy this and this and this and I'll be better. I don't have time to keep failing at this nonsense." That's how they're making money. And I can see how it makes people mad.
In truth we're not really disagreeing
Oh, btw, skill and Mk XII can get you 15K, but Surgical Strikes can get you the same 15K with much less skill involved
Ingame though, on average, it's about the gear and how much of your team is upgraded.
The people playing and failing the pve ques when DR came out were seasoned players with all the knowledge and know how. Sure the optional-fails were a shock but people did try to compensate. There was very little chance of success without the gear.
That's incorrect. Many of us did just fine in Mk XII purples. With exactly the same gear, why did they fail while we succeeded? Build and piloting.
Anything past mk 12 is a paywall and the advanced pve ques (that give access to the rep system) reinforce that paywall.
The only parts of the rep system that require Advanced queues are the Delta rep gear, and the Omega sets.
KCB & Assimilated console do not require BNPs, so my alt needed literally zero Advanced runs to max out her rep and get top gear. Heck, she parsed at over 15k with only mission rewards before I started on any rep system, but she is a Romulan Engineer.
Mk XIII isn't that costly, it's the Mk XIV that really hurts.
well, on a purely hypothetical note, you're more likely to get four guys who've run together from a DPS channel, than you will pugging, that's a certainty, and as anyone who's been here long enough knows, Teamwork is "OP' (lol).
so really, it's a no-brainer-four players who know each other and can work together are automatically going to be more effective than four strangers.
Hell, TWO players that can work together will be better than four strangers.
I have no idea who most of the other people in the DPS channel are. I know Sarcasm, Ryan, ezri, etc., because I listen to them (and consequently improve) and I know Vel'gon because we're both on /r/stobuilds, but I don't think I've played with any one of them more than twice.
The reason there's better "teamwork" in the DPS channels is because everybody knows what they're supposed to be doing. The "teamwork" happens naturally when everybody knows their role in the team, even if they don't know anyone in the team.
Literally nothing in your experience points to inferior gear as the issue, as opposed to bad builds and bad piloting.
The fact that people in exactly the same gear can do anything from 5k to 125k tells us that builds and piloting have far greater impact than gear.
My own data - parsed and recorded on a spreadsheet - showed that comparing my ISE in Mk XIIs to ISA in Mk XIVs (no Epics, two consoles upgraded in quality) was an average of +15% DPS (and it took an additional 100s on average).
Even if going from Mk XII to Mk XIV gave a +25% increase in DPS, unless you're already doing 8k you're not going to hit 10k.
Even if going from Mk XII to Mk XIV gave a +50% increase in DPS, unless you're already doing 6k-7k you're not going to hit 10k.
Yet we know that we can hit 10k easily in Mk XIIs.
A bad workman always blames his tools. It is not the tools we use which make us good, but rather how we employ them.
Years ago, when STFs took some strategy, and ship building was more than just slap beams on a lockbox ship and win, I learned by studying the forums. There used to be long discussions about STFs, strategies, builds, etc to get the optionals. After that you would play normals until you got the basic Mk X gear, then move to elites for the rare drops when you were set.
Now I guess its harder to learn.. content is steam rolled. Nobody would dare progress through gear levels, its MkXII or nothing. Still, there are lots of people that will teach people willing to learn, but its the willing to learn part that is exceedingly rare. People want it now and don't want to think to get it
The fact that people in exactly the same gear can do anything from 5k to 125k tells us that builds and piloting have far greater impact than gear.
My own data - parsed and recorded on a spreadsheet - showed that comparing my ISE in Mk XIIs to ISA in Mk XIVs (no Epics, two consoles upgraded in quality) was an average of +15% DPS (and it took an additional 100s on average).
Even if going from Mk XII to Mk XIV gave a +25% increase in DPS, unless you're already doing 8k you're not going to hit 10k.
Even if going from Mk XII to Mk XIV gave a +50% increase in DPS, unless you're already doing 6k-7k you're not going to hit 10k.
Yet we know that we can hit 10k easily in Mk XIIs.
A bad workman always blames his tools. It is not the tools we use which make us good, but rather how we employ them.
Very true. Here's another way to look at it. While most people focused on Ryan's total DPs number in his Nx run, to me the impressive bit is that he didn't parse last place. Some other person, as I recall in a jem dread, had all the same teammates, all the same tholian rebuffs, and still did less damage than a tier 1 ship with only torpedoes.
His piloting was the equivalent of 9 boff abilities, 4 weapons, 7 consoles, 2 hangar bays, and possibly two boff space traits.
Upgrading from mark 12 to mark 14 isn't as important as all of that combined. But unless the jemmy pilot deliberately tanked his own score, pilot skills are.
Being booted for failing doesn't really teach new players anything and the subsequent 'fail cooldown' deters them from trying again. It was an absolutely awful idea.
Some would argue its a fantastic at teaching players poor game design.
Also,
"No matter how you cut it, skill > build > gear"
This is definitely true, I shocked myself when I got 1st in CE on my klink with mixes of MkXI rare to MkXII uncommon gear (definitely suboptimal). Makes we wonder what it would be like if I bothered throwing time and money at the upgrade system etc. (though not enough to actually do it, ever).
Comments
...regardless of gear. I agree. That's my point. Maybe I should have used T4 ships instead? That has been known to happen. At any rate, better gear is not the #1 key to better success. Most of us complete the same things on characters with MK XII stuff as our better equipped alts....just slower. I have as much confidence in my Sci alt (still with some MK XII) as my main.
As I was sitting here replying to this thread, it literally dawned on me that I had not run an actual ISA. I'd done a couple of Discos and said TRIBBLE it after the second one (where the first with two afk folks got further than the second with all five there)...so I'd just been off testing things, dorking around in CCAs, hitting up Ker'rat, bouncing between Argala and Gerren or just hitting up whatever random stuff cause I was mainly dorking around and testing stuff...heh, had even run some hour long solo SB24s testing stuff. I'm not big on "achievements" and all that...I'm casual, happy-go-lucky, and generally spend too much time apologizing for my wheee builds and piloting to want to be a burden to anybody...but yeah, I realized I hadn't actually run an ISA.
So...let's run an ISA. And I did...with this build: http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=sarrwheee2_5343
Sarr Wheee...sarrwheee...sorry...get it?
Infected Space 8:19 minutes (499 seconds)
Player A: 8,528,438 (17,299 DPS) 493s / 395,336 healing (531,436 damage in)
Player B: 6,832,343 (14,058 DPS) 486s / 93,656 healing (162,381 damage in)
Player C: 6,284,114 (12,619 DPS) 498s / 335,433 healing (630,092 damage in)
Player
Player E: 3,487,826 (7,089 DPS) 492s / 70,332 healing (97,062 damage in)
Nobody died. We came close to losing Player C briefly, but he/she got the heals needed to keep them up from others.
Three folks got an invite to the 10k channel from that run according to the upload.
So what was Mk XIV on my build?
UR14 Bioneural Infusion Circuits
G14 Bounty Hunter's Friend
G14 Conductive RCS Accelerator [ShHP]
G14 Exotic Particle Field Exciter [Kin]
Okay, what about Mk XIII?
VR13 Polaron Beam Array [Acc]x2[Over]
VR13 Bio-Neural Gel Pack
Yeah, lolwut...[Acc]x2[Over]? Meh, like I said - I spend most of my time dorking around testing things. Had a VR13, 2x VR12, and a UR11 that also had a [CrtD] mod on it.
The build's there, linked, in all of its exquisite fail...
Okay then, let's be fair here and break down some of the damage I did, eh?
36.7% (6,363) came from "pets" which included Elite Scorps, Elite Widows, Photonic, Nimbus, Aceton Assimilators, and Tyken's Rifts.
18.7% (3,240) came from TS3 Neutronic, which imho is a broken ability and doing too much damage because of the mechanics involved (no reduction in damage on the individual torp along with boost from the actual TS3 results in a higher boost for damage with the Neutronics compared to other torps - significantly higher).
21.7% (3,753) came from regular shots with the four Polaron Arrays. Yeah, no FAW or the like on this build...hrmmm. TT1, APB1, and TS3 for that Neutronic torp.
The overall CrtH% for each of the players was:
Player A: 8.468%
Player B: 24.682%
Player C: 9.692%
Player
Player E: 20.129%
My actual CrtH ranged from 14.5% to 66.7% not counting the 100% CrtH from five Overloads and one from the Isokinetic Cannon. The pets with their 6149 attacks and only 4.708% CrtH dragged my average down.
My "Attack" stats in normal space are:
Bonus Accuracy - 30%
Crit Chance - 11.7%
Crity Severity - 94.8%
Just more fail lumped more fail in the build, though there are obviously some things in the build there that somebody building for DPS would have, eh? Stuff that one might have learned about either through testing, reading the forums, watching videos, or the like right?
By the way, I was Player A. Wheeeeee...
Whatchoo talkin' bout, Willis? So you're one of those getting a 10k invite?
Lol, I hope not. I pride myself on being below average...maybe average on my very best days. The upload said Players A, B, and C were sent the invites though...so apparently the other two guys doing 10k+ hadn't been uploaded or hadn't run before either.
I had always held off from running it because I was always goofing around testing various things, so I never had a build that I felt would be ready for hitting it up...I didn't want to impose my goofballness on anybody else. I didn't expect that particular outcome in the least.
It's literally a hodgepodge of different things I've been testing. The Spire core was there from testing the stuff in that one thread. The Counter-Command deflector was there from testing visual FX on the Sarr Theln from that one deflector thread. Was running the 2pc Nukara instead of the 2pc MACO testing the difference without the CD reduction for things. The [Acc]x2[Over] were there from testing the proc rate for the [Over] mod. Running Widows and Scorps because of testing them against one another. Had a Rare EWO Subsystem Targeting DOFF because I was testing maintaining Beam Barrage by spacebaring the four Subsystem Targeting abilities on the Sarr Theln. Just all sorts of mixed testing stuff going on with the build.
Does that mean you'd rather PUG now?
If those were my only two choices, yup.
your posit is kind of misleading, there are no new players with epic loot and of course experienced players with white gear (and killer boffs, doffs, and traits, right? and all the specialization points, don't forget that) will have a chance right? lets put them on teamspeak too, right, because like that's a good comparison.
(sarcasm -> it's not a good comparison)
let me tell you how things unfolded in pug,
After people initially got destroyed by the new ques there was a big sorting out of players, of those that played the ques a lot, a lot just up and left the game. But, some people stayed (like myself) and I'm guessing their thinking was like mine which went like this.
"Ok, these games aren't our personal property, it's someone elses sandbox and everything was just changed ... ... So, I'm a guest here, just playing in it ... ... Ok, lets deal with the new world, lets see, can I figure this out?"
And I started the process of upgrading a ship.
Over some time, the fail rate on pugs started to go down. And then, before Thanksgiving during the weekdays, I started making bonus timers for the first time (in pug). I remember this because of how shocked I was. In particular when we (in pug) made the bonus timers in 3 games back to back.
Then Thanksgiving hit. And a bunch of people with some extra holiday free time, that had not been playing and upgrading their ships, came out to play. It was fail city all over again. People were popping up in chat like they hadn't seen it before (because they hadn't) saying "what happened to the ques?".
After Thanksgiving, the un-upgraded people filtered out and the pugs started winning and making bonus timers again. This cycle played out every weekend for a while. Now it's different, basically there's a critical mass of players who have upgraded enough such that the ques work again.
But, they are still empty of course. Why?
Because spending $$ to buy mounds of upgrade dilthium stinks, and it's the only path to game participation past mk 12.
And a lot of people left the game because of that.
And I dont care how much $$ the devs/owners are making with this new model, the game is much worse off as it is now. It's always better to have more customers, because even if they aren't spending $$ today, keep them entertained and around long enough and eventually they will spend the $$.
I'm using a fictional, theoretical scenario that pits gear vs skill. It's a pretty easy A vs B choice. You're over thinking it.
I see and understand your personal experience. It is not, however, mine. It's not ridiculous to assume that it isn't even the majority.
So, after running several times, you improved. Maybe I'm reading this incorrectly, but what I am quoting looks exactly like what someone would say if they had improved as a player.
If you looked at everyone in question's build, and saw that they had not upgraded their equipment, then I see what you're saying. However, the more glaring part I bolded.
Or the more, regularly playing people?
Several reasons. Some don't like the added difficulty. Some don't like queuing with leechers/griefers. I only PUG because of my odd fascination with "what is the average" player.
That's a misconception. Is 15k useless in ISA? I did 16k in a SCI ship, with a SCI captain, with little rep gear, no fleet anything, and MK XI+XII weapons from FEs. I've only recently starting upgrading it, because, you know, ridiculous prices.
I don't dispute that many people left because of difficulty levels and upgrade costs.
I can't disagree that DR has been, in general, a raging disappointment. I'd say "failure," but that's subjective.
Basically, it's like instead of you improving your driver skills, you would simply get a better car.
...which is like putting lipstick on a pig.
I know someone in game, right now. None of this is fabricated:
He regularly would do 1-2k dps if we took him on a STF. His build was awful, his piloting was worse. He would fly around in circles, get lost, forget to fire, it was a mess. We knew we would have to constantly ask him what he was doing, and, most of the time, he wouldn't know.
We helped him with his build, and attempted to keep steering him in the right direction. He optimized his build. His piloting, and lack of paying attention, however, did not improve.
He bought the Delta Pack, and started flying the T6 ships. Optimized, with upgraded weapons. If you looked at his builds, you would think he was, at the very least, competent. You would be mistaken.
Last I heard, he topped out at 4.5k DPS. You can throw infinite money at this game, and still be dreadful at playing it.
Alternately, you could watch the T1 ISA run Ryan did, for a demonstration of skill>gear.
In reading that question, I asked myself the simplest of questions...
"What reason do I have to hit the queues?"
Atmosphere Assault...none.
Azure Nebula Rescue...none.
Borg Disconnected...none.
Crystalline Catastrophe...Fleet Marks.
Federation Fleet Alert...Fleet Marks, but I'm fine getting them from CCA.
Federation Starbase Blockade...Fleet Marks, but I'm fine getting them from CCA.
Gorn Minefield Fleet Action...none.
Hive Onslaught...none.
Infected Conduit...none.
Khitomer Vortex...none.
Klingon Scout Force...none.
No Win Scenario...Fleet Marks, but I'm fine getting them from CCA.
Starbase 24...none outside of some solo SB24 testing.
Starbase Fleet Defense...Fleet Marks, but I'm fine getting them from CCA.
Storming the Spire...none.
Breach...none.
Cure Found...none.
The Vault...none.
Undine Assault...none.
Vault Shuttle Event...none.
Viscous Cycle...none.
So yeah, the only queue I hit up on a somewhat regular basis (which isn't really that regular) would be CCA.
EC? Far better sources elsewhere.
Dil? Far better sources elsewhere.
SP? Far better sources elsewhere.
Implants? Easier sources elsewhere.
Isos? Easier sources elsewhere.
APCs? BHE's ludicrous easy compared to Space.
BNPs? Sure, but how many runs will you actually need?
Various Marks? I'm in no rush, those daily boxes come from all sorts of easier sources elsewhere.
So why are you hitting up the queues?
You are actually helping me prove my point as he doubled his damage. He however, improved nothing.
Now look at it from the opposite angle. His build is still the 2k one, but he became quite competent and now he can even do 7k with that build (mere example). Will it suffice for Advanced? I'm guessing no.
Even after optimizing his build (read:slotting what he was told worked), he was still around 2k, yet he should have been able to perform decently, at least 10k+. When I say we attempted to help him gain skill, I mean well over 10 game hours. Even after fixing his build, he gained virtually no usefulness.
Buying the Delta Pack, and upgrading everything, got him 2.5k. Without having bought the Delta pack or upgrading his weapons, had his skill improved to a competent level, he would have placed over 10k.
So, placing the blame of his ineptitude on his ship was a complete and utter failure.
OK, that is an issue, but that's not exactly what I am saying. What I'm saying is that the way the game is right now, it's not really doing anything to make people improve their gameplay. Even those 10K you mention would be "so so" for Advanced. The game is actually making you be lazy and just improve your build untill it "magically" provides the DPS for minimum requirements.
But that's basically been Cryptic's gameplan for a few years now. The game's not designed/developed for either the DPS or PvP crowd. Powercreep isn't powercreep for the intended audience of the game...it's the "magic" that allows them to do stuff. It's not meant as a game for gamers...it's meant for Star Trek fans with limited gaming experience if any gaming experience.
I agree that Post-DR HP sponges require more DPS...and that upgrading weapons does increase your damage. I also believe that it's a monetization thing put into place by Cryptic. But the skill you have determines how much extra you're gaining with these upgrades, and whether or not it is "necessary."
Someone said something in one of the DPS channels recently: "Face it, 15k is good enough for this game. We just all want to be better." It's not elitist, or OCD, it's just many people's type of fun. Skill and MK XII can get you 15k DPS.
It's very, VERY easy to just say "I'm going to buy this and this and this and I'll be better. I don't have time to keep failing at this nonsense." That's how they're making money. And I can see how it makes people mad.
That could be a good thing. It's the implementation that's faulty.
In truth we're not really disagreeing
Oh, btw, skill and Mk XII can get you 15K, but Surgical Strikes can get you the same 15K with much less skill involved
LOL I didn't "need" it, but I got the T6 Raptor. You're preaching to the choir.
That's incorrect. Many of us did just fine in Mk XII purples. With exactly the same gear, why did they fail while we succeeded? Build and piloting.
The only parts of the rep system that require Advanced queues are the Delta rep gear, and the Omega sets.
KCB & Assimilated console do not require BNPs, so my alt needed literally zero Advanced runs to max out her rep and get top gear. Heck, she parsed at over 15k with only mission rewards before I started on any rep system, but she is a Romulan Engineer.
Mk XIII isn't that costly, it's the Mk XIV that really hurts.
I have no idea who most of the other people in the DPS channel are. I know Sarcasm, Ryan, ezri, etc., because I listen to them (and consequently improve) and I know Vel'gon because we're both on /r/stobuilds, but I don't think I've played with any one of them more than twice.
The reason there's better "teamwork" in the DPS channels is because everybody knows what they're supposed to be doing. The "teamwork" happens naturally when everybody knows their role in the team, even if they don't know anyone in the team.
Literally nothing in your experience points to inferior gear as the issue, as opposed to bad builds and bad piloting.
The fact that people in exactly the same gear can do anything from 5k to 125k tells us that builds and piloting have far greater impact than gear.
My own data - parsed and recorded on a spreadsheet - showed that comparing my ISE in Mk XIIs to ISA in Mk XIVs (no Epics, two consoles upgraded in quality) was an average of +15% DPS (and it took an additional 100s on average).
Even if going from Mk XII to Mk XIV gave a +25% increase in DPS, unless you're already doing 8k you're not going to hit 10k.
Even if going from Mk XII to Mk XIV gave a +50% increase in DPS, unless you're already doing 6k-7k you're not going to hit 10k.
Yet we know that we can hit 10k easily in Mk XIIs.
A bad workman always blames his tools. It is not the tools we use which make us good, but rather how we employ them.
Now I guess its harder to learn.. content is steam rolled. Nobody would dare progress through gear levels, its MkXII or nothing. Still, there are lots of people that will teach people willing to learn, but its the willing to learn part that is exceedingly rare. People want it now and don't want to think to get it
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Yep. If you know what to do you can solo ISA on Pre-DR gear. In fact, you can build a ship on Mk XII gear to solo it and never touch any sort of STF.
Very true. Here's another way to look at it. While most people focused on Ryan's total DPs number in his Nx run, to me the impressive bit is that he didn't parse last place. Some other person, as I recall in a jem dread, had all the same teammates, all the same tholian rebuffs, and still did less damage than a tier 1 ship with only torpedoes.
His piloting was the equivalent of 9 boff abilities, 4 weapons, 7 consoles, 2 hangar bays, and possibly two boff space traits.
Upgrading from mark 12 to mark 14 isn't as important as all of that combined. But unless the jemmy pilot deliberately tanked his own score, pilot skills are.
Just rewatched, first run he had 8,089 vs the recluse' 7,2.... And the second run he pulled 18k vs the jemmy 17k.
No matter how you cut it, skill > build > gear
And my own experience getting better as a pilot matches this.
Some would argue its a fantastic at teaching players poor game design.
Also,
"No matter how you cut it, skill > build > gear"
This is definitely true, I shocked myself when I got 1st in CE on my klink with mixes of MkXI rare to MkXII uncommon gear (definitely suboptimal). Makes we wonder what it would be like if I bothered throwing time and money at the upgrade system etc. (though not enough to actually do it, ever).