I continue to hope that, so far a the STO story direction goes, something occurs that makes the Borg realise that the Iconians are a bigger concern/threat than the Federation.
Although we don't know one way or the other, the Borg don't SEEM to have had much to do with the Iconians, or vice-versa. There WAS the brief battle between the Obex and the Borg cube(s) in 'The Return', but that was effectively written out when 'The Return' was revised not too long ago, and the revised story doesn't involve the Obex.
Beyond that, there was no reference to the Borg, on the Solane subspace station in Sphere of Influence, despite the fact that we saw clear, concrete, evidence that the Iconians were/are monitoring at least one portion of the Delta Quadrant.
This does raise one or two questions. I find it very difficult to beleive that the Iconians are not aware of the Borg, and one can only assume that, considering the whole "their weakness is hubris" thing, they either don't care about them or don't view them as a serious threat.
And one could assume that the Borg are at least aware of the Iconians (although it remains to be seen whether it is in a historical sense or if they're aware of 'recent' Iconian activities) - they have to assimiliated knowledge of them from people and technology over the centuries.
Somebody mentioned Mirror Picard in the novels using the Iconian computer virus from "Contagion" against the Borg.
I think it probably was the intent at the time. Though the writer of "Contagion" (Steve Gerber) has passed away, TNG was well into the subplot that introduced the Borg by that point and the subplot was referenced in "Contagion".
At the end of TNG S1, a string of Federation outposts were destroyed in The Neutral Zone in the episode "The Neutral Zone", written by Maurice Hurley (who also wrote "Q Who?"). Plans for the Borg began in TNG S1 and they were originally supposed to debut at the end of TNG's first season, creating a stable alliance between the Romulans and Federation that was supposed to be a major ongoing TNG plotline. The writer's strike in '88 derailed that.
It is a common misconception that Q caused Picard to encounter the Borg. The Borg were already active in the Beta Quadrant in TNG S1, destroying outposts in the Romulan Neutral Zone. Q simply caused Picard to take notice of them by showing them on their home turf. In "Q Who?" it was established that the Borg were hundreds of thousands of years old.
"Contagion" (which introduced the Iconians) referenced the Borg subplot (even though the Borg had not been mentioned by name yet onscreen) and established the Iconians as a force in the Romulan Neutral Zone which had a defensive computer virus before being bombarded hundreds of thousands of years ago. It's probable that the collection of races who bombarded Iconian were intended to actually BE the Borg Collective and that their computer virus was an anti-Borg weapon that the Borg bombarded the Iconians to destroy.
There are a couple of things to keep in mind. The Borg were conceived very briefly as an insectoid race and were changed to Cyborgs in very early planning after Hurley and others saw the kids' show "Captain Power." The villain Lord Dread convinced them cyborgs were more budget friendly.
The entire concept of assimilation was created for "The Best of Both Worlds." The original idea was that they were a single organic race (with birth chambers as seen in "Q Who") whose sole interest in other races was their technology while disposing of their organic life.
In general, the producers were not interested in regularly featuring the Borg, who deemed them too powerful, and who felt the need to make them less powerful in order to use them more often, as fan pressure mounted for the Borg to appear more.
The Ferengi were intended to be the relentless, iconic enemy of TNG when the show was conceived. They were actually planned to be a galactic foe on powerful or more powerful than any of the established empires. Their introduction five episodes into the run was seen as a disaster and people laughed at them, which was not intended. Ferengi were hastily written out of scripts (getting replaced with Romulans and other standard threats) and Maurice Hurley began working with Gene Roddenberry to develop the Borg.
Incidentally, I think I've read a couple of treatments sent to CBS after Enterprise that had big name producers going back to the original concept with the Ferengi and having them outpace or dominate the Borg. At least one of those called for the Ferengi to cheat an other dimensional race out of some sort of ultimate power and another called for an augment virus to actually make the Ferengi physically frightening to audiences (which they were intended to be in "The Last Outpost" when they first appeared).
This part of your post doesn't make sense. You're saying it is a misconception that Q forced the encounter between Picard and the Borg, then turn around to say Q DID cause the encounter.
Q Caused PICARD to encounter the Borg - But Earth forces had already encountered them (as seen on Enterprise, which is valid regardless of the communitys feelings on the show.)
This part of your post doesn't make sense. You're saying it is a misconception that Q forced the encounter between Picard and the Borg, then turn around to say Q DID cause the encounter.
Picard would have encountered the Borg - when they were in the middle of assimilating the Federation.
With Q, he encountered them earlier. But this encounter didn't cause the conflict with the Borg - that was always going to happen, but this gave Picard (and Starfleet) an early warning.
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This part of your post doesn't make sense. You're saying it is a misconception that Q forced the encounter between Picard and the Borg, then turn around to say Q DID cause the encounter.
The Borg were already destroying Federation outposts by that point. Q simply showed Picard who was doing that by taking them to the heart of Borg space.
I had thought that is what you meant. I think it better for you to say that it is a misconception that Q forced the first encounter between the Federation and the Borg in "Q, Who?".
Well, unfortunately I can only attempt to clarify someone else's post here, and I can't be sure that's how it was meant, but this is how I would interpret it.
I find the original TNG story arc ideas interesting. The idea that the Iconians weren't just overcome by an alliance, but a Collective/Hive Mind... It is fascinating. It could still be true, I suppose. It kinda makes sense - how do you fight an enemy that can appear anywhere in space via his Gateway? If you can't use hte same tech, maybe instantenous communication and information sharing could work - an Iconian "steps out" to escape attackers - the "drones" on the other end are aware of it and can intercept.
I guess I have a small problem with the idea that the Iconian Virus was a Borg counter-measure.
First, it was not actually certain that it was a virus. I believe there is actual dialog suggesting that it was much more harmless.
And second - why would the Borg not be able to deal with viruses?
But then, I suppose the latter isn't really an issue - the writers of the first Iconian episode did think that turning off the computer and rebooting it wouldn't be one of the first ideas on the mind of a trained Starfleet crew working with that computer every day. "Have you tried turning it off and on again?" shouldn't be forgotten over a few centuries!
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federation is life
federation is love
everyone should have the love and enlightenment of the federation. because friendship is magic and will just give up thier individuality to the federations enlightened path.
The Federation is life and love I wouldn't say so.TNG and Voyager might of shown this but not TOS or DS9.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Age StarTrek-Gamers Administrator
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To quote Memory Alpha: The Iconian software transmission was an information transfer developed by the ancient Iconian civilization. The software used a small probe that downloaded a program into the target's computer system. Once there, the program began rewriting the software of the destination computer. If the recipient was not Iconian, it began to cause malfunctions, eventually reaching catastrophic systems failure. The purpose of this transmission was never discovered.
As you say, it wasn't necessarily a virus.
Honestly as far as the average layman (e.g. a Star Trek TV writer) is concerned, between "worm", "Trojan horse", "virus", "spyware", and "botnet", it's probably six of one, half a dozen of the other. They TRIBBLE up real world terminology like that all the time.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
But then, I suppose the latter isn't really an issue - the writers of the first Iconian episode did think that turning off the computer and rebooting it wouldn't be one of the first ideas on the mind of a trained Starfleet crew working with that computer every day. "Have you tried turning it off and on again?" shouldn't be forgotten over a few centuries!
It's not just that. There's also the "Restore from clean backup" part. When data rebooted, he didn't remember anything after beaming down.
But then, I suppose the latter isn't really an issue - the writers of the first Iconian episode did think that turning off the computer and rebooting it wouldn't be one of the first ideas on the mind of a trained Starfleet crew working with that computer every day. "Have you tried turning it off and on again?" shouldn't be forgotten over a few centuries!
Actually, the writers didn't like that ending from what I was able to track down.
They had some unspecified more technical ending.
The co-writer of the episode, Beth Slick (at the time Woods) was an IT professional. One of the first alpha testers for Windows several years later. Author of numerous IT books in the 90s.
At the time, Paramount did not use computers routinely or have an IT department.
Gene Roddenberry wanted his first desktop computer circa 1987 or so and bought it from Beth. He learned she was a Trekkie and had some writing interest (mainly she wanted to hook up her friend Steve Gerber with the Trek people). So Gene hired her as a consultant. Much of the staff were intrigued by the idea of personal computers but had never owned one and had her build their first PC.
She pitched the virus angle and turned to her friend, Howard the Duck creator Steve Gerber (who had also bought a PC from her), who pitched the gates aspect. The script naturally was touched up by the staff to mention the Borg Neutral Zone plotline and other things. The episode is notable for being the first mention of Picard's interest in archaeology and the first time he order Earl Grey Tea.
But nobody on staff understood the original ending, as most of them had never actually worked with computers before or owned one.
So the staff proposed the "turn it off and on again" ending.
Beth wasn't fond of the solution then and countered it on the grounds that real viruses don't work that way generally. But she ultimately relented as it was the best solution anybody on staff could understand or felt that audiences (the vast majority of whom didn't own computers, although 8 bit gaming was catching on big at the time) would understand. When the episode aired, 85% of Americans didn't own a computer.
I just figured it was part of the technology lost during WWIII. They lost seat belts, circuit breakers (hence consoles on the bridge exploding when a conduit on deck 10 takes a hit), and basic computer maintenance concepts like "frequent backups" and "virus scanners".
I just figured it was part of the technology lost during WWIII. They lost seat belts, circuit breakers (hence consoles on the bridge exploding when a conduit on deck 10 takes a hit), and basic computer maintenance concepts like "frequent backups" and "virus scanners".
Well, they might tnot have circuit breakers because they have this weird Electro-Plasma conduits thing...
But I can't explain the lack of seat belts. I can't even explain Worf's station. *
Though... do we use seat belts on submarines and naval vessels? I think not. I guess the problem is that the special effects/writing team really didn't portray space combat enough like naval combat.
*) All I know is: There will be peace with the Borg in our lifetime. And if I have to peacimmilate every single drone with my bare hands.
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Yep, exactly. They're a machine entity, the central program overrides the drone's biological consciousness and slaves it to the system. They are, as I said, a massively parallel processing supercomputing array built out of trillions of distributed cyborg units. Their directives are programmed in and they have never wavered from them in the past and it's unlikely they're able to without somehow accessing the root programming and changing some core mission commands.
Like a Terminator, you can't change it's mind it will pursue it's assigned function to the last spark of power in it's system. You have to change its program, and if you can't, you have to destroy it. It can't be reasoned with, it can't be bargained with, because it does not have free will. It has a program and it will follow that program, period. The Borg are no different.
People never seem to realise this fact. The Borg are not a 'hive mind' and the individual is meaningless. They're overwritten with whatever the Borg actually is, which may or may not be far more than mere root commands, we just don't know, which then has access to all their knowledge and abilities against their will.
If the Borg were any sort of true collective consciousness comprised of all the individuals working together towards the goals of the connected population as a whole, it would immediately vote for its own dismantling. Practically none of the people in it are there willingly.
People never seem to realise this fact. The Borg are not a 'hive mind' and the individual is meaningless. They're overwritten with whatever the Borg actually is, which may or may not be far more than mere root commands, we just don't know, which then has access to all their knowledge and abilities against their will.
If the Borg were any sort of true collective consciousness comprised of all the individuals working together towards the goals of the connected population as a whole, it would immediately vote for its own dismantling. Practically none of the people in it are there willingly.
I think they're more like a parallel computing system with biological brains working as the processors.
Well, I admit I am not not optimistic that the Borg sighted near Bajor are any sign of opening peace talk negotiations. But maybe it will be another opportunity to show the Borg that they are on the wrong path.
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Well, I admit I am not not optimistic that the Borg sighted near Bajor are any sign of opening peace talk negotiations. But maybe it will be another opportunity to show the Borg that they are on the wrong path.
Yeah we need them on the right path the path our torpedoes are on! BOOM!
My working theory has always been that the Borg Collective started out as a group of beings kind of like the "transhumanist" crowd, mad keen on "perfecting" themselves through technological enhancements; they wired themselves to each other and to ever more intricate, artificially intelligent networks of supercomputers... until eventually, the network ate them. Result one huge artificial intelligence using them as its processor extensions.
That seems to be what the Borg Collective's current attitudes suggest, anyway; it inherited their obsession with "perfecting" themselves and building ever more "efficient" computers, and then went slightly dotty from flying through too much cosmic radiation. I mean, these random superstitions it gets about Omega particles, Species 8472 and so on.
So, a dotty, superstitious, galaxy-spanning supercomputer, on a mission to build "perfect systems" out of everyone and every gadget it meets whether they like it or not. Is that ever going to suddenly convert to pacifism? Haven't a clue, wouldn't put anything past it.
One can not have peace with the Collective. Ever. They are a single-minded faction driven by the pursuit of perfection through assimilation. Yes, we have seen individual Borg liberated from the Collective and given free will but not all desire this so-called freedom.
What would a Klingon be if you took away his warrior lust for honor? What would a human be if you took his compassion and curiosity, or a Vulcan his logic? Mere flotsam miserably wandering through the universe with no sense of purpose of being, victims to whatever tides they find themselves riding upon. In this sense the Collective is no different; they are what they are, and as such represent a threat to all civilized worlds. A threat which must be extinguished.
Give them the opportunity to free themselves from the Collective. If they choose to remain, eliminate them.
Something occurred to me. Its so simple (excuse me if this came up before).
- The only way to make peace with the Borg Collective that would at all work would be to reprogram its directives. The Borg are driven by them. The solution would be to replace "assimilate all life and technology to achieve perfection" with something else. Maybe "explore everything and learn from it to achieve perfection" (if you wanna go with the Federation style).
Ironically this sounds an awful lot like the final solution that Data used in Best of Both Worlds, except collective-wide. That would be quite a hack to say the least.
Something occurred to me. Its so simple (excuse me if this came up before).
- The only way to make peace with the Borg Collective that would at all work would be to reprogram its directives. The Borg are driven by them. The solution would be to replace "assimilate all life and technology to achieve perfection" with something else. Maybe "explore everything and learn from it to achieve perfection" (if you wanna go with the Federation style).
Ironically this sounds an awful lot like the final solution that Data used in Best of Both Worlds, except collective-wide. That would be quite a hack to say the least.
I don't think that would work in the long run. Originally the directive was simple: "Learn all that is learnable". As the Borg evolved that directive remained but the process changed. Rather than exploration they assumed assimilation as the most efficient means of gaining the knowledge of countless species.
No... for the Borg that do not willingly leave the Collective, utter destruction is the only means to ensure peace. They simply can not be trusted.
And unless the nanites in the Liberated Borg can be entirely disabled and/or purged, they can not ever be fully trustd either. There's too great a risk that they will eventually succumb to the call of the Collective if said Collective is allowed to exist.
So far, the argument is whether the Borg can be reasoned with, make peace, dismantle them, etc etc etc. Has anyone raised the argument of "why should anyone avoid assimilation"?
Comments
If you believe it then I got a diamond from Uranus to sell you.
Ain't Nobody Got Time for That
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Somebody mentioned Mirror Picard in the novels using the Iconian computer virus from "Contagion" against the Borg.
I think it probably was the intent at the time. Though the writer of "Contagion" (Steve Gerber) has passed away, TNG was well into the subplot that introduced the Borg by that point and the subplot was referenced in "Contagion".
At the end of TNG S1, a string of Federation outposts were destroyed in The Neutral Zone in the episode "The Neutral Zone", written by Maurice Hurley (who also wrote "Q Who?"). Plans for the Borg began in TNG S1 and they were originally supposed to debut at the end of TNG's first season, creating a stable alliance between the Romulans and Federation that was supposed to be a major ongoing TNG plotline. The writer's strike in '88 derailed that.
It is a common misconception that Q caused Picard to encounter the Borg. The Borg were already active in the Beta Quadrant in TNG S1, destroying outposts in the Romulan Neutral Zone. Q simply caused Picard to take notice of them by showing them on their home turf. In "Q Who?" it was established that the Borg were hundreds of thousands of years old.
"Contagion" (which introduced the Iconians) referenced the Borg subplot (even though the Borg had not been mentioned by name yet onscreen) and established the Iconians as a force in the Romulan Neutral Zone which had a defensive computer virus before being bombarded hundreds of thousands of years ago. It's probable that the collection of races who bombarded Iconian were intended to actually BE the Borg Collective and that their computer virus was an anti-Borg weapon that the Borg bombarded the Iconians to destroy.
There are a couple of things to keep in mind. The Borg were conceived very briefly as an insectoid race and were changed to Cyborgs in very early planning after Hurley and others saw the kids' show "Captain Power." The villain Lord Dread convinced them cyborgs were more budget friendly.
The entire concept of assimilation was created for "The Best of Both Worlds." The original idea was that they were a single organic race (with birth chambers as seen in "Q Who") whose sole interest in other races was their technology while disposing of their organic life.
In general, the producers were not interested in regularly featuring the Borg, who deemed them too powerful, and who felt the need to make them less powerful in order to use them more often, as fan pressure mounted for the Borg to appear more.
The Ferengi were intended to be the relentless, iconic enemy of TNG when the show was conceived. They were actually planned to be a galactic foe on powerful or more powerful than any of the established empires. Their introduction five episodes into the run was seen as a disaster and people laughed at them, which was not intended. Ferengi were hastily written out of scripts (getting replaced with Romulans and other standard threats) and Maurice Hurley began working with Gene Roddenberry to develop the Borg.
Incidentally, I think I've read a couple of treatments sent to CBS after Enterprise that had big name producers going back to the original concept with the Ferengi and having them outpace or dominate the Borg. At least one of those called for the Ferengi to cheat an other dimensional race out of some sort of ultimate power and another called for an augment virus to actually make the Ferengi physically frightening to audiences (which they were intended to be in "The Last Outpost" when they first appeared).
Q Caused PICARD to encounter the Borg - But Earth forces had already encountered them (as seen on Enterprise, which is valid regardless of the communitys feelings on the show.)
Picard would have encountered the Borg - when they were in the middle of assimilating the Federation.
With Q, he encountered them earlier. But this encounter didn't cause the conflict with the Borg - that was always going to happen, but this gave Picard (and Starfleet) an early warning.
The Borg were already destroying Federation outposts by that point. Q simply showed Picard who was doing that by taking them to the heart of Borg space.
I find the original TNG story arc ideas interesting. The idea that the Iconians weren't just overcome by an alliance, but a Collective/Hive Mind... It is fascinating. It could still be true, I suppose. It kinda makes sense - how do you fight an enemy that can appear anywhere in space via his Gateway? If you can't use hte same tech, maybe instantenous communication and information sharing could work - an Iconian "steps out" to escape attackers - the "drones" on the other end are aware of it and can intercept.
I guess I have a small problem with the idea that the Iconian Virus was a Borg counter-measure.
First, it was not actually certain that it was a virus. I believe there is actual dialog suggesting that it was much more harmless.
And second - why would the Borg not be able to deal with viruses?
But then, I suppose the latter isn't really an issue - the writers of the first Iconian episode did think that turning off the computer and rebooting it wouldn't be one of the first ideas on the mind of a trained Starfleet crew working with that computer every day. "Have you tried turning it off and on again?" shouldn't be forgotten over a few centuries!
The Federation is life and love I wouldn't say so.TNG and Voyager might of shown this but not TOS or DS9.
USS WARRIOR NCC 1720 Commanding Officer
Star Trek Gamers
Honestly as far as the average layman (e.g. a Star Trek TV writer) is concerned, between "worm", "Trojan horse", "virus", "spyware", and "botnet", it's probably six of one, half a dozen of the other. They TRIBBLE up real world terminology like that all the time.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
It's not just that. There's also the "Restore from clean backup" part. When data rebooted, he didn't remember anything after beaming down.
Actually, the writers didn't like that ending from what I was able to track down.
They had some unspecified more technical ending.
The co-writer of the episode, Beth Slick (at the time Woods) was an IT professional. One of the first alpha testers for Windows several years later. Author of numerous IT books in the 90s.
At the time, Paramount did not use computers routinely or have an IT department.
Gene Roddenberry wanted his first desktop computer circa 1987 or so and bought it from Beth. He learned she was a Trekkie and had some writing interest (mainly she wanted to hook up her friend Steve Gerber with the Trek people). So Gene hired her as a consultant. Much of the staff were intrigued by the idea of personal computers but had never owned one and had her build their first PC.
She pitched the virus angle and turned to her friend, Howard the Duck creator Steve Gerber (who had also bought a PC from her), who pitched the gates aspect. The script naturally was touched up by the staff to mention the Borg Neutral Zone plotline and other things. The episode is notable for being the first mention of Picard's interest in archaeology and the first time he order Earl Grey Tea.
But nobody on staff understood the original ending, as most of them had never actually worked with computers before or owned one.
So the staff proposed the "turn it off and on again" ending.
Beth wasn't fond of the solution then and countered it on the grounds that real viruses don't work that way generally. But she ultimately relented as it was the best solution anybody on staff could understand or felt that audiences (the vast majority of whom didn't own computers, although 8 bit gaming was catching on big at the time) would understand. When the episode aired, 85% of Americans didn't own a computer.
Well, they might tnot have circuit breakers because they have this weird Electro-Plasma conduits thing...
But I can't explain the lack of seat belts. I can't even explain Worf's station. *
Though... do we use seat belts on submarines and naval vessels? I think not. I guess the problem is that the special effects/writing team really didn't portray space combat enough like naval combat.
*) All I know is: There will be peace with the Borg in our lifetime. And if I have to peacimmilate every single drone with my bare hands.
People never seem to realise this fact. The Borg are not a 'hive mind' and the individual is meaningless. They're overwritten with whatever the Borg actually is, which may or may not be far more than mere root commands, we just don't know, which then has access to all their knowledge and abilities against their will.
If the Borg were any sort of true collective consciousness comprised of all the individuals working together towards the goals of the connected population as a whole, it would immediately vote for its own dismantling. Practically none of the people in it are there willingly.
I think they're more like a parallel computing system with biological brains working as the processors.
Yeah we need them on the right path the path our torpedoes are on! BOOM!
The Borg have a similiar definition of peace as the romans.
That seems to be what the Borg Collective's current attitudes suggest, anyway; it inherited their obsession with "perfecting" themselves and building ever more "efficient" computers, and then went slightly dotty from flying through too much cosmic radiation. I mean, these random superstitions it gets about Omega particles, Species 8472 and so on.
So, a dotty, superstitious, galaxy-spanning supercomputer, on a mission to build "perfect systems" out of everyone and every gadget it meets whether they like it or not. Is that ever going to suddenly convert to pacifism? Haven't a clue, wouldn't put anything past it.
What would a Klingon be if you took away his warrior lust for honor? What would a human be if you took his compassion and curiosity, or a Vulcan his logic? Mere flotsam miserably wandering through the universe with no sense of purpose of being, victims to whatever tides they find themselves riding upon. In this sense the Collective is no different; they are what they are, and as such represent a threat to all civilized worlds. A threat which must be extinguished.
Give them the opportunity to free themselves from the Collective. If they choose to remain, eliminate them.
- The only way to make peace with the Borg Collective that would at all work would be to reprogram its directives. The Borg are driven by them. The solution would be to replace "assimilate all life and technology to achieve perfection" with something else. Maybe "explore everything and learn from it to achieve perfection" (if you wanna go with the Federation style).
Ironically this sounds an awful lot like the final solution that Data used in Best of Both Worlds, except collective-wide. That would be quite a hack to say the least.
"Let them eat static!"
I don't think that would work in the long run. Originally the directive was simple: "Learn all that is learnable". As the Borg evolved that directive remained but the process changed. Rather than exploration they assumed assimilation as the most efficient means of gaining the knowledge of countless species.
No... for the Borg that do not willingly leave the Collective, utter destruction is the only means to ensure peace. They simply can not be trusted.
And unless the nanites in the Liberated Borg can be entirely disabled and/or purged, they can not ever be fully trustd either. There's too great a risk that they will eventually succumb to the call of the Collective if said Collective is allowed to exist.
So far, the argument is whether the Borg can be reasoned with, make peace, dismantle them, etc etc etc. Has anyone raised the argument of "why should anyone avoid assimilation"?