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Peace with the Borg in Our Lifetimes?
mustrumridcully0
Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
Star Trek's message is fundamentally a positive one. Humanity can overcome its greatest challenges and become true to its ideals.
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TLDR;
The Borg are unrelenting and terrifying foe. But we know they adapt. We usually fear that means they will adapt so they can finally destroy us. That amy be what the Borg still believe. But isn't the real lesson of banging your head against the federation unsuccessfully so many times that violence is not the answer. Must the Collective adapt not its military means and technology, but it's cultural means and philosophy? Is perfection perhaps not possible if always resorting to violence due to a conflict?
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There were of course always stories that urge us to stay cautious, and sometimes went the opposite direction. You can't always win, sometimes you make terrible compromises. But still, overall, the message is positive. This future of ours may not end in a big flash when we bomb each other back to the stone age or whatever.
There will always be conflicts and dilemmas to face, but they won't break us. We will persevere.
Now,on the other side, we have the Borg. Unrelenting, vicious, brutal, cold. It assimilates other species without remorse, turning them into seemingly slaves of a hive mind, all for a supposed goal of perfection. There can be no peace with such an enemy. Q said the Federation was not ready for the Borg, such a terrifying enemy.
But... Not ready - maybe we can be ready for it. And is the Star Trek solution to kill our worst foe? Or is it to turn him into an ally? The Klingons were once the biggest rival to the Federation, the most dangerous and vicious foe, with no scruples to destroy us all. But... they turned out allright. They became our allies. Not without challenges, but they didn't need to be exterminated.
So what would be an optimistic Star Trek solution be to this challenge? I think it's peace with the Borg - turning seemingly monsters into friends.
Why was the Federation not ready for the Borg? Unlike with the Klingons, Romulans or Cardassian, the Federation was technologically just inferior to the Borg. The Borg couldn't be beaten economically or with military might.
The Borg had no reason to question their own motives - their enemies may have had interesting cultural or technological specialties, but as a whole, they were incomplete, and could not resist. The Borg were clearly superior, there could be no doubt that the Borg were closer to perfection than others.
But the Federation survived - more with luck than with skill. And now the Borg are trying to keep assimilating the Federation. And they fail. They are fought back at every turn.
The Borg already adapted a bit, as Spock tells us in the Omega Leonis Sector Black. They are more aggressive, what they cannot assimilate, they will destroy. But... This strategy failed, too. The Borg still didn't overcome the Federation. The original superiority is gone. Resistance is no longer futile.
If the Borg are "serious" about adapting to the environment, if they really try to get closer to perfection, they have to consider what makes the Federation so strong, and how they can learn from that.
They have to consider that maybe the Federation peaceful form of exploration and expansion, all its diplomatic efforts to make new friends or to even convince former enemies to become neutrals or allies.
The Borg may have first learned the wrong lesson - they assimilated Locotus as a kind of ambassador to make assimilation "easier" - but all it got them was a big security vulnerability. Maybe that lead to them abandoning this approach and trying it again with brute force. But that was the wrong lesson to learn here - they should have instead learned that an ambassador cannot just force change on others. He has to win the hearts and minds of people.
The real strategy would be to convince people that it's worth joining the Hive. Not everyone perhaps - there are some that fear losing their individually, of course. But there could be good reasons to join a Hive Mind - never be alone again, share knowledge and information, and see the universe in a unique, galaxy-spanning perspective.
And the Borg can still learn from that individual.
And if something in them wishes to leave the Collective afterwards - it could be allowed. A high concept form of student exchange program. Sure, scary at first, for people that haven't forgotten Wolf 359, Sector 001 or the Vega Colony. There will be many small steps necessary.
The total assimilation of all species will no longer be a goal - but was it even a goal, or was it just a wrong mean to a good end?
There will never be a way to undo the terrible harm done with it, and we should never forgot. But we can and should also never forgot that terrible things happened on Federation member planets before the Federation was founded - ultimately, we can overcome our shortcomings and become something greater. Q also reminded Picard of that (or the other way around) - the terrible atrocities of Earth's past still lead to a peaceful galactic nation of many planets and species.
---
Of course, I know people will say: "No, this is not a possible way for the Borg to evolve to. The only end to the conflict is their destruction.". But I say that this doesn't sound like a Trek solution.
---
TLDR;
The Borg are unrelenting and terrifying foe. But we know they adapt. We usually fear that means they will adapt so they can finally destroy us. That amy be what the Borg still believe. But isn't the real lesson of banging your head against the federation unsuccessfully so many times that violence is not the answer. Must the Collective adapt not its military means and technology, but it's cultural means and philosophy? Is perfection perhaps not possible if always resorting to violence due to a conflict?
----
There were of course always stories that urge us to stay cautious, and sometimes went the opposite direction. You can't always win, sometimes you make terrible compromises. But still, overall, the message is positive. This future of ours may not end in a big flash when we bomb each other back to the stone age or whatever.
There will always be conflicts and dilemmas to face, but they won't break us. We will persevere.
Now,on the other side, we have the Borg. Unrelenting, vicious, brutal, cold. It assimilates other species without remorse, turning them into seemingly slaves of a hive mind, all for a supposed goal of perfection. There can be no peace with such an enemy. Q said the Federation was not ready for the Borg, such a terrifying enemy.
But... Not ready - maybe we can be ready for it. And is the Star Trek solution to kill our worst foe? Or is it to turn him into an ally? The Klingons were once the biggest rival to the Federation, the most dangerous and vicious foe, with no scruples to destroy us all. But... they turned out allright. They became our allies. Not without challenges, but they didn't need to be exterminated.
So what would be an optimistic Star Trek solution be to this challenge? I think it's peace with the Borg - turning seemingly monsters into friends.
Why was the Federation not ready for the Borg? Unlike with the Klingons, Romulans or Cardassian, the Federation was technologically just inferior to the Borg. The Borg couldn't be beaten economically or with military might.
The Borg had no reason to question their own motives - their enemies may have had interesting cultural or technological specialties, but as a whole, they were incomplete, and could not resist. The Borg were clearly superior, there could be no doubt that the Borg were closer to perfection than others.
But the Federation survived - more with luck than with skill. And now the Borg are trying to keep assimilating the Federation. And they fail. They are fought back at every turn.
The Borg already adapted a bit, as Spock tells us in the Omega Leonis Sector Black. They are more aggressive, what they cannot assimilate, they will destroy. But... This strategy failed, too. The Borg still didn't overcome the Federation. The original superiority is gone. Resistance is no longer futile.
If the Borg are "serious" about adapting to the environment, if they really try to get closer to perfection, they have to consider what makes the Federation so strong, and how they can learn from that.
They have to consider that maybe the Federation peaceful form of exploration and expansion, all its diplomatic efforts to make new friends or to even convince former enemies to become neutrals or allies.
The Borg may have first learned the wrong lesson - they assimilated Locotus as a kind of ambassador to make assimilation "easier" - but all it got them was a big security vulnerability. Maybe that lead to them abandoning this approach and trying it again with brute force. But that was the wrong lesson to learn here - they should have instead learned that an ambassador cannot just force change on others. He has to win the hearts and minds of people.
The real strategy would be to convince people that it's worth joining the Hive. Not everyone perhaps - there are some that fear losing their individually, of course. But there could be good reasons to join a Hive Mind - never be alone again, share knowledge and information, and see the universe in a unique, galaxy-spanning perspective.
And the Borg can still learn from that individual.
And if something in them wishes to leave the Collective afterwards - it could be allowed. A high concept form of student exchange program. Sure, scary at first, for people that haven't forgotten Wolf 359, Sector 001 or the Vega Colony. There will be many small steps necessary.
The total assimilation of all species will no longer be a goal - but was it even a goal, or was it just a wrong mean to a good end?
There will never be a way to undo the terrible harm done with it, and we should never forgot. But we can and should also never forgot that terrible things happened on Federation member planets before the Federation was founded - ultimately, we can overcome our shortcomings and become something greater. Q also reminded Picard of that (or the other way around) - the terrible atrocities of Earth's past still lead to a peaceful galactic nation of many planets and species.
---
Of course, I know people will say: "No, this is not a possible way for the Borg to evolve to. The only end to the conflict is their destruction.". But I say that this doesn't sound like a Trek solution.
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And part of the Star Trek story line is that the humans needed to be really in a terrible situation to realize that they needed to do better - the Star Trek story line has the Eugenic Wars, drug-dependent soldiers, ghettos for poor people and eventually the 3rd world war.
The Klingons also were in a very bad state when they were finally willing to negotiate with the Federation. The Founders were on the verge of extinction when they finally stopped their war.
But if the story for the Borg continues as it has done so far in STO, I think they will find themselves in a very similar position.
If they truly believe they are superior to you, how can you even come to an equal understanding, how can you talk to a group that has such a structure as the borg?.
As much as janeway pissed me off, she had the right attitude towards the borg ( granted her judgment was a bit TRIBBLE ).
-Q
Hard to negotiate with someone that views you not even as an opponent but a consumable resource. Would you negotiate with a cheeseburger?
The Borg are implacable not because they're determined to enslave everyone, but because they genuinely believe that they're improving the lot of every species they assimilate. All conflict is ended, all want is ended. In the Collective, there is no greed, no envy, no crime - because there is no reason for crime. All drones are equal.
And there is no foe so implacable as the one who believes, sincerely, that he is trying to do good.
Eventually, I suppose, the Collective will be either defeated or "freed" (read: differently assimilated) into the Cooperative. But the Borg Collective itself cannot be reasoned with, because they think we're wrong. They think our mindless pursuit of individualism is ultimately destructive (just look at the wars we've fought among ourselves!), and they only want to bring us peace and fulfillment.
This is even stranger than that time Spock's brain was removed and he was still alive.
Also, it'll happen about when hell drops below absolute zero.
When first seen in TNG, the borg represented the force as described by that Admiral in STO during the mission in which the Jem'hadar return. There's no reasoning with them.
Janeway of course was able to reason with them. The addition of the queen and especially the conversations between Janeway and the queen showed that either the borg have changed by the authors of the various episodes, or that the Federation (from a Borg point of view) has become 'worthy' to negotiate with.
If the latter is the case, then I'd say that the borg may be able to evolve and that co
If you WERE able to defend yourself, they would simply have continued their activities until you destroyed the ship you were facing. It doesn't matter. As Q said, the essence of what they are remains. They can just come back, relentless, ship after ship, unkillable, unreasoning, discovering more about you with every encounter until, just like the Enterprise, your reserves are spent.
An inability to accept this fact is why the Borg are what they are by this point. Picard, apparently, is the only one who understood the lesson Q was teaching, considering how writers have handled the Borg everywhere outside the TNG TV series. Even First Contact fundamentally broke them by the addition of a presumably producer mandated addition of the Queen as a 'face'.
Where Picard finally understood that this was an entity (being a linked mind of singular purpose and will) that fundamentally rejected all attempts at communication, let alone reasoning, and shelved his pride to beg Q for help and show he'd learnt that lesson, no-one else watching apparently ever did. I guess it's somewhat amusing that the lesson is so difficult for people to grasp that with their mighty authorial power over the universe, the harbinger of that lesson was itself simply warped and humanised to become more base and understandable.
The only ending with the Borg is to kill it, and you are dealing with a singular 'it'. How you go about your grim task, freeing every individual, simply destroying everything, doesn't matter. You're going to kill it.
My character Tsin'xing
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Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator
"bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh."
"Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness." ~Day[9]
"Your fun isn't wrong." ~LaughingTrendy
Find me on Twitterverse - @jodarkrider
There have been some pretty interesting theories written about the borg over the years, mainly one about borg being "farmers" of a sort. Interesting read on it and through that subreddit you can find a lot of other examples supporting this claim. The borg do not advance, they do not innovate. They take and assimilate. I think at some point the original TNG writers realized this fact, and thats why we don't see more of them in TNG. For something to remain "scary", it can't be seen being beaten time and time again (lookin at you janeway). Also explains why, if the borg are so incredibly interested in humanity... 1 cube. Seriously 1 cube? Every time? The galactic farmers explanation really makes sense because of this.
In comes Voyager. Warlord Janeway blowing up borg with 1 torpedo left and right. Tac Cubes? Lol more like target practice for the infinite supply of torpedos. The borg, as a story, as a race, as a threat, as everything is absolutely ruined by Voyager. There will be no "peace" because at this point the borg have been downgraded to the scary level of Ferengi (another species introduced on TNG as a threat, and then reduced to comedy relief via DS9). Whats the point of peace with a dead race? All hopes of the borg every being explained, becoming a larger threat, attacking earth (like in the Destiny novel trilogy) are gone. Can't really blame STO for following suit either, it's essentially cannon that the borg are going to be wiped out by the end of Voyager. Just be glad First Contact came out before season 3/4 of Voyager....
edit: oops wrong link, corrected
However since their state is lot weaker, and with Iconians starting to show up. I'm sure they will see them as a threat, and be forced to join the "good guys" in order not to be completely destroyed. As they have proven that to help deal with the "Undine." So even that proves they are smart and have some sort of diplomacy. But soon as the threat is deal with. I'm sure they will go right back to their old ways. Just like they did on Voyager.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/10052253
Why are you not rejoicing?
They must cease to be.
Any being that would inject nanobots into planetary ecosystems is an anathema.
Who is wiser than Guinan? Ask her if we should negotiate.
Mmmm, nope. What you describe is the Geth. They are truly equal, they have to come on consensus for every proposal. And even they have a rebel faction. Borg has the Borg Queen. The who? Why? What for?
One of the more insightful scenes between the Fed's and the Klingons takes place in the EP where Geordi gets reprogrammed via his visor by the Romulans to kill a Klingon official .
In Picard's ready room, a Klingon diplomat talks about the Empire pulling out of a certain system (thus granting it independence) , and the diplomat throws in the follow-up sentence " perhaps we will reconquer them later..." .
The scene above is important in two ways:
It shows Picard looking clearly uncomfortable at what he's hearing and it is obvious that he's biting back a grand speech about love, peace earl gray, hot and the Federation way ... .
But no less importantly ... , it gives an honest look at the relationship between the two powers .... , namely that in the Khitomer Accords , the Klingons did not sell out their right of expansion by force ... -- something that those in the Empire who opposed Chancellor Gorkon's peace initiative feared .
Now how does the above relate to the Borg?
Well simple really .
Some call the Borg a vortex , others a virus and others still a force of nature ... -- an "inbetween step" if you will between the biological and the technological .
And whatever they are, I would be very surprised if any "agreement" between them and the Alpha Quadrant races would differ from the basics of the Khitomer Accords as far as not limiting the Borg's expansionism -- just like the Klingons were not limited in the KA .
(this would no doubt be covered under "respecting each sides way of life as in times previous to this agreement")
... plus let's not forget the rampant paranoia in the Alpha Quadrant which can only make such an agreement possible if it's Quadrant wide agreement , as there are plenty who would accuse the Federation of "allying" with the Borg if only the Fed's make such a "deal" with the Borg ...
You know what holds all that back? Licensing trying to extract every last penny out of a tired concept and people who are fans who just will not let go of one or two moments that gave them goosebumps 22 years ago.
I think (and hope) we can get a Star Trek that imposes radical change and evolution, that doesn't pander purely to nostalgia and which recognizes the power of Roddenberry's general vision while disrespecting impulses towards nostalgia.
It's not going to happen in a video game. And novels are going to go in a long-winded and expository direction with it. J.J. Trek, if they do Borg, is probably going to heighten the suspense of the space zombie plague. Heck, I could see Star Trek 3 being done as a suspense film ala Alien with Kirk and co. fighting Borg infection on a disabled Klingon ship if nothing else because they have to produce a movie fast and shooting something dark and suspenseful lets you shoot faster and with less of a script if you have a director with strong instincts, which is why every young indy would-be action crew is shooting horror and zombie movies anymore. You can make them quickly and make them very well without the need for a sophisticated script. (It's also what makes The Walking Dead stand out both as a comic and as a show that they're using a semi-sophisticated soap operatic style in a genre where you don't see -- or need -- that level of sophistication.)
But I'd really like to see the Borg get changed up and a radically forward status quo shift for Trek. I'd like to see the TNG era buried under as much change and evolution as TNG buried TOS under. New scripting style. Old enemies made less relevant, new threats unleashed. Complete annhilation of the power structure and political landscape of TNG. Trek needs to be less precious and more punk with its setting.
But the place for that is a flagship TV show. Maybe that's why CBS keeps holding back on doing one. I think they sense that a TV show means change and risk and that the mountain of pitches they're getting for a new TV show are all calling for change and risk.
Note I say "flagship" show. They really could put Trek on TV now but I think what would work best right now is something like Caprica or Agents of SHIELD; something like a 21st century cop show prequel, maybe with some Sleepy Hollow or Supernatural or Grimm style elements. That's not core Trek at all but I think whereas core Trek would mean really evolving the IP, I could see a show working right now that isn't strictly a Star Trek show but which has modern day, 2014 people grappling with living in a Star Trek universe, the kind of show where one timelost shuttle would be the world's greatest superweapon and the subject of seasons of conspiracies.
It would be a lot of fun to see similar events play out in STO.
it would not violate the definition of hell should it's temperature drop below 0K - actually, that might be a prerequisite for it. substances below 0K are quite hot.
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/year-review-below-absolute-zero-hot
I mean, the Undine had the same problem. "The Weak Shall Perish" - 3 minutes later, dozens of Undine vessels are layed to waste by a single Fed Escort. If the weak shall perish, then it will be the Undine that perish, not us.
The Undine Command ship finally seemed to have gotten the message that maybe it needs to consider what strength is and what weakness is, that maybe we are not the weak that need perishing, but we can only be strong together.
The Borg can learn this lesson, too. We will of course have to keep resisting them until they realize that they can't go on like this. But if the Borg have the capacity to adapt at all, they should have to adapt to the fact that their methods aren't working.
How can they be superior to us if they fail to beat us and cannot convince us that joining them is a good idea? They are clearly imperfect in this regard. How can it be that the Federation could turn enemies into allies but the Borg can't? If there is something to assimilate here from us, it's our ability to talk with people and convince them that there are other solutions to our conflict then violence.
And how often have we believed in our history that our enemy will never change his position and there can be no compromise? And yet, wars end, new alliances are forged. War-torn continents and nations now stand united.
Maybe the Iconians will be the big factor to change things. A new, common enemy, may make the Borg realize even more that they are caught between a rock and a hard place, and their supposed superiority is not real. And to adapt, they have to change their ways.
Even one of their fundamental objectives - achieving perfection - contains a "noble" part - they don't just want it for themselves. They want it for everyone, that is part of why they insist on assimilation. But if they realize that their forced assimilation is not really helping them and others, then they have to change.
they believe their way of life is better than ours, not necessarily their technology. if we beat them, it's due to technological superiority or some point of cultural distinctiveness, which they will assimilate and improve their whole collective with, coming closer to the perfection they seek. and they might also determine that this distinctiveness is something that admittedly gives us a superiority in one aspect, but comes with too great a price all things considered. if we don't pose a threat, they'll even ignore us if the cost of assimilating us outweights the benefit of assimilation. case in point are the kazon.
i think the best way of understanding the borg is in terms of religion: they are fundamentalists. no matter what happens, they will not deviate from the basic tenets of their faith
Contrast the Borg. They are many bodies but one singular mind. Their all-consuming, hard-coded imperative that consumes their entire existence is that if it's intelligent life, it gets assimilated, because "We are the Borg. Your technological and biological distinctiveness will be added to our own. Your society will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile." Even when Janeway showed that one ship with no support at all could resist them with impunity, they didn't waver.
Like I keep saying, you fundamentally misunderstand the nature of the enemy. Good thing you're not the one in charge of the Federation's foreign policy. The Undine had the right idea.
Clearly you've never dealt with a fundie, or a conspiracy theorist such as a 9/11 truther or Holocaust denier. There are some people for whom the facts of reality don't matter. Their own delusions are the only things that are truth and there's nothing you can do that will convince them otherwise. The mind of the Borg Collective is one of those people.
Because as I mentioned with the Undine, over the long haul you can change a society made of individuals. Unfortunately the Borg Collective is not a society of individuals. It is a single individual with multiple bodies.
Just like how they stayed friends with Janeway after allied with Janeway against the (supposedly) common enemy that was the Undine! Oh, wait.
Canon evidence refutes your point. Like I said, evidence-based decision-making. There is zero evidence for your scenario even being possible.
See, here's the thing. You need to stop thinking of the Borg Collective as a "they". It is one mind controlling billions of bodies. You're confusing it with the Borg Cooperative, which (to use an analogy from another franchise) is more like the protoss' Khala or the networks of the geth, a true communal hive mind.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/