Although that would be some excellent motivation for Krenim scientists to look into more aggressive types of weaponry.
Such as those that cause things to never have existed.
Seconded. The Kremin, in however many reduced numbers, dedicate themselves to rebuilding their Imperium...and do that by drawing on their knowledge of temporal science and manipulating the timeline.
I can't actually see any more story to come from the Vauudwar, so have them be obliterated!
Maybe the whole thing of the Kremin being conqured was a set up to the new story line. Think, at the end of the episode he was working on something temporal and was motivated to restore the Kremin Imperium to its full strength in the destroyed timeline. Having been conqured brings about the same scenario that led to him developing the temporal technology the first time. I think they're up for the next special as the Kremin seek to restore their former empire. It makes sense, temporal technology was the defining quality so it has to be included and their messing around with time works better as a one-off like we had with Temporal Ambassador. The Kremin will return and mess up time and we have to put it back before the end of the episode. I bet they're working on the models right now for a Ferbuary release.
...I am hopeful that they're going to be brought into a future Season as an enemy.
It was such a tease when we got Temporal Science Vessels and Mobius Temporal Destroyers and I really thought it was on the horizon, especially bringing in the Delta Quadrant...going up against a Kremin Weapon Ship in either a Red Alert, a new PvE or an episode, etc.
All of their vessels firing Chroniton Flux Torpedoes that pass through any shields and cause kinetic damage...Brace For Impact can help, but every ship will really need a Temporal Core, which maybe the Temporal Ships could get a bonus or come with a special one.
It's main weapon acts the same as the Borg Mothership...
And if we could get a Temporal Carrier...not with pets that can use Temporal Backstep and the Manheim Device, but just release cool looking Aeons.
The story could go that the Kremin are launching a full scale attack on the galaxy, to destroy every other species and be in total control.
Wasn't the Krenim Timeship in the original promotion video? I can understand them being overcome by the Vaadwuar, but it sure looked like it was a game asset as part of a mission...
It's all going to be speculation for either of us anyway, but read what Annorax is reading at the end of the episode.
And like I said before, changing circumstances may not change the outcome. The past changed and he has his wife now. There could be another reason for him to build the ship.
Ah. But the point of letting us know he was reading schematics for the timeship, was to show us that he was putting his wife first, this time (with the presumption that, from there on in, he would not be so obsessive about building the timeship any more; and thus, that it would likely no longer get completed).
Ah. But the point of letting us know he was reading schematics for the timeship, was to show us that he was putting his wife first, this time (with the presumption that, from there on in, he would not be so obsessive about building the timeship any more; and thus, that it would likely no longer get completed).
Well, again, it depends on how much stock you put in one person. Surely Annorax didn't make all of the advances necessary to build that weapon but they were the result of a vast set of cultural achievements, The inventor can be replaced if the invention needs someone else to discover it.
But as I said before, all it takes is an El-Aurian who was present in the Delta Quadrant for the Year of Hell. They can have memories of changes to the timeline and we even have an example of one in STO.
An El-Aurian goes to the Krenim refugees and has a band of them lead him or her to Annorax's incomplete research.
The El-Aurians (at least the ones from Guinan's and Soren's group but likely all of them) should be well aware of the various changes to the timeline, such as Year of Hell, First Contact's changes to the timeline at the beginning, etc.
Ah. But the point of letting us know he was reading schematics for the timeship, was to show us that he was putting his wife first, this time (with the presumption that, from there on in, he would not be so obsessive about building the timeship any more; and thus, that it would likely no longer get completed).
The schematics appear to exist though. Even if he didn't build it because he was busy enjoying time with his wife, it still doesn't change the fact a design for a temporal ship remains. The original ship was built to defeat an enemy and now the Krenim have been defeated by the Vaadwaur. Perhaps some secret base is building a timeship for the very purpose of revenge?
It would be neat if the Krenim manage to erase the Vaadwaur from history, only to TRIBBLE things up and make things worse than they already are. I suppose it would be too much like the stories we've already seen though. Destroying the timeship for example would be a logical way to make things right. Although since Voyager reset time, they wouldn't know to do that here.
The way I see it, everything that particular ship did was undone...it didn't eliminate Annorax, Tuvok or the others on the alien ships, but just it and what it had done.
So, there really is nothing stopping another being built or the Kremin expanding on the technology or the idea of eradicating enemies from the timeline to be made stronger.
They should always be an enemy, never playable and able to delete things, but when did they stop existing? Annorax, his wife and the Imperium still existed at the end of "Year Of Hell" and I know they're absent from the Delta Quadrant in Rising and that someone said the Vaudwaar have destroyed them...but how complete could that be in STO? I mean, the Iconians were supposed to be extinct, when it turns out they're responsible for absolutely everything!
How nice of you to ignore the rest of the post where he explained that if the Krenim could reset their own destruction by the Vaads, then by rights they already should have.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
How nice of you to ignore the rest of the post where he explained that if the Krenim could reset their own destruction by the Vaads, then by rights they already should have.
All time travel or time change is based on perspective (relativity). If we're in the first iteration before the Kremin changed anything then nothing will be changed. If I go back in time to last Friday and change an event, the event still happened before I changed it.
All time travel or time change is based on perspective (relativity). If we're in the first iteration before the Kremin changed anything then nothing will be changed. If I go back in time to last Friday and change an event, the event still happened before I changed it.
That's assuming we're using the "time travel spins off alternate timelines" interpretation this episode. We could be in a predestination paradox episode, or a "time travel overwrites the previous future" episode.
Remember, the rules for time travel in Star Trek change every time the writers pick up a pen.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
That's assuming we're using the "time travel spins off alternate timelines" interpretation this episode. We could be in a predestination paradox episode, or a "time travel overwrites the previous future" episode.
Remember, the rules for time travel in Star Trek change every time the writers pick up a pen.
exactly!!! So, I don't understand what the big deal is if the Kremin come back.
exactly!!! So, I don't understand what the big deal is if the Kremin come back.
The "big deal" is that, contrary to popular belief, major engineering projects such as the Krenim temporal weapon ship are not the product of a single genius. Annorax can come up with the underlying theory behind the main gun, but to actually build the thing you need raw materials, construction workers, engineers to design subsidiary and support systems, other engineers to solve problems with translating the theory to something you can actually build, and money to pay for all of it. All of which are going to be prioritized to other more practical projects because, assuming the Vaads didn't completely exterminate the Krenim in the first place, they're on the run and need to set up housekeeping someplace safe and secure, and rebuild their conventional military to the point where it's useful again, before they can even think about TRIBBLE around with the timelines.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
The "big deal" is that, contrary to popular belief, major engineering projects such as the Krenim temporal weapon ship are not the product of a single genius. Annorax can come up with the underlying theory behind the main gun, but to actually build the thing you need raw materials, construction workers, engineers to design subsidiary and support systems, other engineers to solve problems with translating the theory to something you can actually build, and money to pay for all of it. All of which are going to be prioritized to other more practical projects because, assuming the Vaads didn't completely exterminate the Krenim in the first place, they're on the run and need to set up housekeeping someplace safe and secure, and rebuild their conventional military to the point where it's useful again, before they can even think about TRIBBLE around with the timelines.
If the Vaadwaur can go from a few hundred soldiers in a handful of old fighters; to a massive, modern, seemingly endless fleet in 30 years (even with the help of the the Iconians); then the Krenim could easily muster a handful of engineering teams, fabricators, and resources to build a ship that can save their society in one fell swoop.
If the Vaadwaur can go from a few hundred soldiers in a handful of old fighters; to a massive, modern, seemingly endless fleet in 30 years (even with the help of the the Iconians); then the Krenim could easily muster a handful of engineering teams, fabricators, and resources to build a ship that can save their society in one fell swoop.
You're making an awful lot of assumptions there.
You're assuming that Annorax or somebody like him actually conducted the research to construct the weapon ship in the first place in this timeline.
You're assuming that there were surviving Krenim with the requisite skills, and that the knowledge also survived the homeworld's destruction/capture and escaped with the survivors.
You're assuming that the Krenim were taken out long enough ago for this to actually take place. Remember, they're building something that in the prime timeline they've never built before. It took Starfleet decades to build the first Galaxy-class starships, and they didn't incorporate any tech Starfleet didn't already have from previous ships such as the Ambassador-class. And that was with the full resources of an intact government, in peacetime no less.
Likewise, you're assuming that what the Iconians gave the Vaads was all new technology instead of a linear improvement extrapolating from their old technology requiring only some industrial retooling, which would be much easier to build. ETA: The Kobali Front story arc also shows at least one additional vault of cryogenically frozen soldiers, so there could easily have been more Vaad troops for them to rebuild their armies with.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Oh, one other thing. You're assuming it was a matter of "a handful of engineering teams, fabricators, and resources" instead of "a massive project requiring hundreds of thousands of people, costing a sizable percentage of the Krenim GDP, and taking decades to build".
EDIT: Plus what sopwithsnipe said.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Slight spin on my previous idea: an El-Aurian remembers the Year of Hell and Annorax.
The El-Aurian gathers Krenim to locate Annorax's notes and assembles a coalition of anti-Borg forces. We have seen plenty of races who hate the Borg.
They manage collectively to finish and build the weapon and take it to Unimatrix 001 where they wipe out the Borg from history.
This naturally messes quite a few things up -- and my theory is that the Borg were the ones who lead the bombardment of Iconia. In the days before they forcibly assimilated people. Going off canon, we know both that the Borg were limited to a handful of systems a few hundred years ago but that they are over 100,000 years old.
We might then have to remake the Borg to save the galaxy. I can think of some cool twists from there.
Slight spin on my previous idea: an El-Aurian remembers the Year of Hell and Annorax.
The El-Aurian gathers Krenim to locate Annorax's notes and assembles a coalition of anti-Borg forces. We have seen plenty of races who hate the Borg.
They manage collectively to finish and build the weapon and take it to Unimatrix 001 where they wipe out the Borg from history.
This naturally messes quite a few things up -- and my theory is that the Borg were the ones who lead the bombardment of Iconia. In the days before they forcibly assimilated people. Going off canon, we know both that the Borg were limited to a handful of systems a few hundred years ago but that they are over 100,000 years old.
We might then have to remake the Borg to save the galaxy. I can think of some cool twists from there.
May I point out a rather major flaw in your proposal? In the 2370s the Krenim Imperium was located either on the borders of, or inside Borg territory (based on episode timing--"Year of Hell" came after "Scorpion").
So we're right back to the same problem as using the Krenim weapon ship against the Vaads: If they either could erase the Borg, or wanted to erase the Borg, why do the Borg still exist? Considering that everybody except Captain Traitor considers the Borg a clear and present danger to their very existence, I find it hard to believe that they wouldn't have tried it already if it could be done.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
And if they could do that it would already have been done and there would be no record of their empire being wiped out by the Vaadwaur because it never would have happened in the first place.
That's how the weapon ship works. It creates a causality paradox where history changes with the erasure of a species' historical existence.
This is the Dev's built in release valve. If they need to roll back Delta Rising, storywise, they can blame the Krenim.
"Logic is a little tweeting bird chirping in a meadow. Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell BAD." - Spock
May I point out a rather major flaw in your proposal? In the 2370s the Krenim Imperium was located either on the borders of, or inside Borg territory (based on episode timing--"Year of Hell" came after "Scorpion").
So we're right back to the same problem as using the Krenim weapon ship against the Vaads: If they either could erase the Borg, or wanted to erase the Borg, why do the Borg still exist? Considering that everybody except Captain Traitor considers the Borg a clear and present danger to their very existence, I find it hard to believe that they wouldn't have tried it already if it could be done.
They haven't wanted to yet. Someone in the present (in this case an El-Aurien) goes back to change things and suceeds.
Happens all the time in Trek.
The present doesn't reflect attempts at changing the past until they happen. Then we have to go back to right things.
Why? Why would they not want to erase the Borg? They were willing to erase the Rilnar to put an end to a mere conventional war. Why would they not go after the Borg to save their entire species from extinction?
Simpler to believe the Borg are protected somehow and it can't be done.
The present doesn't reflect attempts at changing the past until they happen. Then we have to go back to right things.
And just like azniadeet, you misunderstand how the temporal weapon ship works. It erases you from history entirely. You never existed to begin with, except in the minds of the weapon ship crew. Unless you're running temporal shielding, you do not recall that there was a previous past with the erased party in it.
Which means in this case you've got a grandfather paradox. Without the El-Aurian going back in time, there's no erasure of the Borg. But without the Borg, there's no El-Aurian time traveler so the Borg don't get erased. At which point the writer has a fatal heart attack.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Why? Why would they not want to erase the Borg? They were willing to erase the Rilnar to put an end to a mere conventional war. Why would they not go after the Borg to save their entire species from extinction?
Simpler to believe the Borg are protected somehow and it can't be done.
(...)
That's too much thought for (forgotten) Trek-logic. Remember that TOS introduced a planet within the borders of the UFP that, if you happened to drink the water from that planet, would shift you into a different time/dimension thingy and essentially made you invulnerable. They could have five guys drink that water and end all wars and threats in an instant. Or the Tantalus-devices we all now have access to (delta rep). None of this makes sense
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Why? Why would they not want to erase the Borg? They were willing to erase the Rilnar to put an end to a mere conventional war. Why would they not go after the Borg to save their entire species from extinction?
Simpler to believe the Borg are protected somehow and it can't be done.
And just like azniadeet, you misunderstand how the temporal weapon ship works. It erases you from history entirely. You never existed to begin with, except in the minds of the weapon ship crew. Unless you're running temporal shielding, you do not recall that there was a previous past with the erased party in it.
Which means in this case you've got a grandfather paradox. Without the El-Aurian going back in time, there's no erasure of the Borg. But without the Borg, there's no El-Aurian time traveler so the Borg don't get erased. At which point the writer has a fatal heart attack.
I don't misunderstand. Most Trek time travel is not predestination time travel.
The past was one way. Then when someone in the present decides to change it, the past was another way. Then when someone in the present decides to change it again or to something approximating what it was before, it changes again.
You can not infer that the present or past reflect what the present or past will be after future time travelers change the past.
There is no grandfather paradox. You go back. You kill your grandfather. You were never born but a possible version of you still appeared out of thin air to kill your grandfather. You continue to exist despite never being born. This is by and large how the fantasy logic of Trek time travel works and if it's stupid, well, we should strive to perpetuate the stupidity in the same ways.
Multiple times in Trek, someone or something from the present wiped out the Federation in the past. DS9's Past Tense. First Contact. All Good Things. City on the Edge of Forever. Voyager's Future's End. Now, you had a temporal wake or time disruptions offering modest protection in some of these, sure. But people protected continued to be protected.
Predestination time travel, time travel which creates alternate universes, and time travel which alters the events of a single timeline all happen in Trek for unknown reasons and all happen frequently in the same story.
You're trying to apply logical consistency and I'm saying that your logical consistency shouldn't matter. Character is all that matters and the logic really ought to be deliberately inconsistent where the temporal mechanics go to preserve the Trek feel.
Comments
Seconded. The Kremin, in however many reduced numbers, dedicate themselves to rebuilding their Imperium...and do that by drawing on their knowledge of temporal science and manipulating the timeline.
I can't actually see any more story to come from the Vauudwar, so have them be obliterated!
Maybe this is the solution for all those who wish Delta Rising never happened.
"No, it isn't that we're rolling back DR, it going away is part of the storyline!"
It'd be the best ex-expansion ever, and players would love it.
Wasn't the Krenim Timeship in the original promotion video? I can understand them being overcome by the Vaadwuar, but it sure looked like it was a game asset as part of a mission...
Oh, we were beyond that point two months ago. Catch up. :P
Ah. But the point of letting us know he was reading schematics for the timeship, was to show us that he was putting his wife first, this time (with the presumption that, from there on in, he would not be so obsessive about building the timeship any more; and thus, that it would likely no longer get completed).
Well, again, it depends on how much stock you put in one person. Surely Annorax didn't make all of the advances necessary to build that weapon but they were the result of a vast set of cultural achievements, The inventor can be replaced if the invention needs someone else to discover it.
But as I said before, all it takes is an El-Aurian who was present in the Delta Quadrant for the Year of Hell. They can have memories of changes to the timeline and we even have an example of one in STO.
An El-Aurian goes to the Krenim refugees and has a band of them lead him or her to Annorax's incomplete research.
The El-Aurians (at least the ones from Guinan's and Soren's group but likely all of them) should be well aware of the various changes to the timeline, such as Year of Hell, First Contact's changes to the timeline at the beginning, etc.
The schematics appear to exist though. Even if he didn't build it because he was busy enjoying time with his wife, it still doesn't change the fact a design for a temporal ship remains. The original ship was built to defeat an enemy and now the Krenim have been defeated by the Vaadwaur. Perhaps some secret base is building a timeship for the very purpose of revenge?
It would be neat if the Krenim manage to erase the Vaadwaur from history, only to TRIBBLE things up and make things worse than they already are. I suppose it would be too much like the stories we've already seen though. Destroying the timeship for example would be a logical way to make things right. Although since Voyager reset time, they wouldn't know to do that here.
So, there really is nothing stopping another being built or the Kremin expanding on the technology or the idea of eradicating enemies from the timeline to be made stronger.
The Krenim are defeated but people still exist...
How nice of you to ignore the rest of the post where he explained that if the Krenim could reset their own destruction by the Vaads, then by rights they already should have.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
All time travel or time change is based on perspective (relativity). If we're in the first iteration before the Kremin changed anything then nothing will be changed. If I go back in time to last Friday and change an event, the event still happened before I changed it.
where did I mention a player weapon, ever? I agree that would be stupid... I think you should reevaluate who's doing the ignoring.
Oh I get it...this is more forum PvP than an actual argument for you. Nice to know. It puts what you're saying in a new perspective... Thanks...
Remember, the rules for time travel in Star Trek change every time the writers pick up a pen.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
exactly!!! So, I don't understand what the big deal is if the Kremin come back.
The "big deal" is that, contrary to popular belief, major engineering projects such as the Krenim temporal weapon ship are not the product of a single genius. Annorax can come up with the underlying theory behind the main gun, but to actually build the thing you need raw materials, construction workers, engineers to design subsidiary and support systems, other engineers to solve problems with translating the theory to something you can actually build, and money to pay for all of it. All of which are going to be prioritized to other more practical projects because, assuming the Vaads didn't completely exterminate the Krenim in the first place, they're on the run and need to set up housekeeping someplace safe and secure, and rebuild their conventional military to the point where it's useful again, before they can even think about TRIBBLE around with the timelines.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
If the Vaadwaur can go from a few hundred soldiers in a handful of old fighters; to a massive, modern, seemingly endless fleet in 30 years (even with the help of the the Iconians); then the Krenim could easily muster a handful of engineering teams, fabricators, and resources to build a ship that can save their society in one fell swoop.
You're making an awful lot of assumptions there.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
EDIT: Plus what sopwithsnipe said.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
The El-Aurian gathers Krenim to locate Annorax's notes and assembles a coalition of anti-Borg forces. We have seen plenty of races who hate the Borg.
They manage collectively to finish and build the weapon and take it to Unimatrix 001 where they wipe out the Borg from history.
This naturally messes quite a few things up -- and my theory is that the Borg were the ones who lead the bombardment of Iconia. In the days before they forcibly assimilated people. Going off canon, we know both that the Borg were limited to a handful of systems a few hundred years ago but that they are over 100,000 years old.
We might then have to remake the Borg to save the galaxy. I can think of some cool twists from there.
May I point out a rather major flaw in your proposal? In the 2370s the Krenim Imperium was located either on the borders of, or inside Borg territory (based on episode timing--"Year of Hell" came after "Scorpion").
So we're right back to the same problem as using the Krenim weapon ship against the Vaads: If they either could erase the Borg, or wanted to erase the Borg, why do the Borg still exist? Considering that everybody except Captain Traitor considers the Borg a clear and present danger to their very existence, I find it hard to believe that they wouldn't have tried it already if it could be done.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
They haven't wanted to yet. Someone in the present (in this case an El-Aurien) goes back to change things and suceeds.
Happens all the time in Trek.
The present doesn't reflect attempts at changing the past until they happen. Then we have to go back to right things.
Simpler to believe the Borg are protected somehow and it can't be done.
And just like azniadeet, you misunderstand how the temporal weapon ship works. It erases you from history entirely. You never existed to begin with, except in the minds of the weapon ship crew. Unless you're running temporal shielding, you do not recall that there was a previous past with the erased party in it.
Which means in this case you've got a grandfather paradox. Without the El-Aurian going back in time, there's no erasure of the Borg. But without the Borg, there's no El-Aurian time traveler so the Borg don't get erased. At which point the writer has a fatal heart attack.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
That's too much thought for (forgotten) Trek-logic. Remember that TOS introduced a planet within the borders of the UFP that, if you happened to drink the water from that planet, would shift you into a different time/dimension thingy and essentially made you invulnerable. They could have five guys drink that water and end all wars and threats in an instant. Or the Tantalus-devices we all now have access to (delta rep). None of this makes sense
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I don't misunderstand. Most Trek time travel is not predestination time travel.
The past was one way. Then when someone in the present decides to change it, the past was another way. Then when someone in the present decides to change it again or to something approximating what it was before, it changes again.
You can not infer that the present or past reflect what the present or past will be after future time travelers change the past.
There is no grandfather paradox. You go back. You kill your grandfather. You were never born but a possible version of you still appeared out of thin air to kill your grandfather. You continue to exist despite never being born. This is by and large how the fantasy logic of Trek time travel works and if it's stupid, well, we should strive to perpetuate the stupidity in the same ways.
Multiple times in Trek, someone or something from the present wiped out the Federation in the past. DS9's Past Tense. First Contact. All Good Things. City on the Edge of Forever. Voyager's Future's End. Now, you had a temporal wake or time disruptions offering modest protection in some of these, sure. But people protected continued to be protected.
Predestination time travel, time travel which creates alternate universes, and time travel which alters the events of a single timeline all happen in Trek for unknown reasons and all happen frequently in the same story.
You're trying to apply logical consistency and I'm saying that your logical consistency shouldn't matter. Character is all that matters and the logic really ought to be deliberately inconsistent where the temporal mechanics go to preserve the Trek feel.
More good STF'S arise , along with a better overall Trek experience .
... maybe we even get Children of Khan ...
*sigh*, I want the Kremin in the game!