Some people are apparently having a really, really hard time grasping the fact that the whole point of the weapon was to completely delete things from the timeline. They never existed.
By deleting itself, it ensured that it literally cannot ever exist. IT'S THE WHOLE DAMN POINT. Annorax can't build the weapon again, it was self deleted from all existence. The weapon never allowed anything directly deleted to happen again regardless.
This is likely also why various temporal agencies of the future never got involved with it. The weapon is a closed loop, the problem permanently fixed itself.
Trek does have sometimes inconsistent approaches to time travel.
But not all time travel follows the idea that a butterfly effect pattern is even possible. (And some elements of Trek works AGAINST the butterfly effect even if things like the death of Edith Keeler show that butterfly effect changes are possible.)
Months after Robert Fulton patented his steam engine design, the patent office was flooded with identical designs. When Fulton was asked how so many people could submit identical designs almost at once, he downplayed the originality of his own design and said, "I guess it's just steam engine time."
There is the theory that history has a current it clings to (which City on the Edge of Forever itself suggested might generally be true).
So while the death or survival of Edith Keeler may change EVERYTHING, it may change absolutely nothing if you went back and killed Hitler or FDR or Napoleon or Genghis Khan. Somebody else would simply do what they did in more or less the same way at more or less the same time and the net effect would be maybe the eye color of a few people change but the shape of history wouldn't change. Eliminate them and somebody takes their place.
"Parallels" hinges on that. Look at all the timelines in that episode. And yet they're all observing the same satellite in the same region of space. (Granted, we get a confirmation bias here in that we wouldn't see versions where that didn't happen but Worf never just finds himself shifted over into the vacuum of space.)
The Mirror Universe relies on a pretty heavy application of destiny rather than chaos theory. It relies on a large quantity of the exact same people conceiving the exact same people within a very narrow window of one another despite wildly different circumstances. In order to have a twin in the Mirror Universe? They have to be conceived +/- 14 days or so by the same parents.
The J.J.-verse goes one further. Technically, their Kirk started off genetically identical to ours. Their Spock did as well and their Scotty and McCoy as well. Their Kirk was born prematurely and has a different birthday. But their Chekov? Explicitly different birthday. Chekov's parents didn't conceive the child who would be Anton Chekov in the Prime timeline. They conceived a different child who they named Anton because he's their only child. The writers actually worked all of this OUT. Their Kirk was born prematurely (or rather Kirk Prime was delayed due to labor slowing drugs)
Point being, killing the inventor of a machine or convincing him not to invent it may have zero impact on the invention.
Trek does have sometimes inconsistent approaches to time travel.
But not all time travel follows the idea that a butterfly effect pattern is even possible. (And some elements of Trek works AGAINST the butterfly effect even if things like the death of Edith Keeler show that butterfly effect changes are possible.)
Months after Robert Fulton patented his steam engine design, the patent office was flooded with identical designs. When Fulton was asked how so many people could submit identical designs almost at once, he downplayed the originality of his own design and said, "I guess it's just steam engine time."
There is the theory that history has a current it clings to (which City on the Edge of Forever itself suggested might generally be true).
So while the death or survival of Edith Keeler may change EVERYTHING, it may change absolutely nothing if you went back and killed Hitler or FDR or Napoleon or Genghis Khan. Somebody else would simply do what they did in more or less the same way at more or less the same time and the net effect would be maybe the eye color of a few people change but the shape of history wouldn't change. Eliminate them and somebody takes their place.
"Parallels" hinges on that. Look at all the timelines in that episode. And yet they're all observing the same satellite in the same region of space. (Granted, we get a confirmation bias here in that we wouldn't see versions where that didn't happen but Worf never just finds himself shifted over into the vacuum of space.)
The Mirror Universe relies on a pretty heavy application of destiny rather than chaos theory. It relies on a large quantity of the exact same people conceiving the exact same people within a very narrow window of one another despite wildly different circumstances. In order to have a twin in the Mirror Universe? They have to be conceived +/- 14 days or so by the same parents.
The J.J.-verse goes one further. Technically, their Kirk started off genetically identical to ours. Their Spock did as well and their Scotty and McCoy as well. Their Kirk was born prematurely and has a different birthday. But their Chekov? Explicitly different birthday. Chekov's parents didn't conceive the child who would be Anton Chekov in the Prime timeline. They conceived a different child who they named Anton because he's their only child. The writers actually worked all of this OUT. Their Kirk was born prematurely (or rather Kirk Prime was delayed due to labor slowing drugs)
Point being, killing the inventor of a machine or convincing him not to invent it may have zero impact on the invention.
And this is why time travel is an absolutely terrible plot device if you want anything resembling internal consistency.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Trek does have sometimes inconsistent approaches to time travel.
But not all time travel follows the idea that a butterfly effect pattern is even possible. (And some elements of Trek works AGAINST the butterfly effect even if things like the death of Edith Keeler show that butterfly effect changes are possible.)
Months after Robert Fulton patented his steam engine design, the patent office was flooded with identical designs. When Fulton was asked how so many people could submit identical designs almost at once, he downplayed the originality of his own design and said, "I guess it's just steam engine time."
There is the theory that history has a current it clings to (which City on the Edge of Forever itself suggested might generally be true).
So while the death or survival of Edith Keeler may change EVERYTHING, it may change absolutely nothing if you went back and killed Hitler or FDR or Napoleon or Genghis Khan. Somebody else would simply do what they did in more or less the same way at more or less the same time and the net effect would be maybe the eye color of a few people change but the shape of history wouldn't change. Eliminate them and somebody takes their place.
"Parallels" hinges on that. Look at all the timelines in that episode. And yet they're all observing the same satellite in the same region of space. (Granted, we get a confirmation bias here in that we wouldn't see versions where that didn't happen but Worf never just finds himself shifted over into the vacuum of space.)
The Mirror Universe relies on a pretty heavy application of destiny rather than chaos theory. It relies on a large quantity of the exact same people conceiving the exact same people within a very narrow window of one another despite wildly different circumstances. In order to have a twin in the Mirror Universe? They have to be conceived +/- 14 days or so by the same parents.
The J.J.-verse goes one further. Technically, their Kirk started off genetically identical to ours. Their Spock did as well and their Scotty and McCoy as well. Their Kirk was born prematurely and has a different birthday. But their Chekov? Explicitly different birthday. Chekov's parents didn't conceive the child who would be Anton Chekov in the Prime timeline. They conceived a different child who they named Anton because he's their only child. The writers actually worked all of this OUT. Their Kirk was born prematurely (or rather Kirk Prime was delayed due to labor slowing drugs)
Point being, killing the inventor of a machine or convincing him not to invent it may have zero impact on the invention.
I feel like there could be a Grand unification of Star Trek's rules wherein alternate universes are only possible while in the process of restoring the predetermined dominant timeline.
Of course, that would require us to close the loop on the jj verse. Which is fine by me. (I've already written that story)
Trek does have sometimes inconsistent approaches to time travel.
But not all time travel follows the idea that a butterfly effect pattern is even possible. (And some elements of Trek works AGAINST the butterfly effect even if things like the death of Edith Keeler show that butterfly effect changes are possible.)
Months after Robert Fulton patented his steam engine design, the patent office was flooded with identical designs. When Fulton was asked how so many people could submit identical designs almost at once, he downplayed the originality of his own design and said, "I guess it's just steam engine time."
There is the theory that history has a current it clings to (which City on the Edge of Forever itself suggested might generally be true).
So while the death or survival of Edith Keeler may change EVERYTHING, it may change absolutely nothing if you went back and killed Hitler or FDR or Napoleon or Genghis Khan. Somebody else would simply do what they did in more or less the same way at more or less the same time and the net effect would be maybe the eye color of a few people change but the shape of history wouldn't change. Eliminate them and somebody takes their place.
"Parallels" hinges on that. Look at all the timelines in that episode. And yet they're all observing the same satellite in the same region of space. (Granted, we get a confirmation bias here in that we wouldn't see versions where that didn't happen but Worf never just finds himself shifted over into the vacuum of space.)
The Mirror Universe relies on a pretty heavy application of destiny rather than chaos theory. It relies on a large quantity of the exact same people conceiving the exact same people within a very narrow window of one another despite wildly different circumstances. In order to have a twin in the Mirror Universe? They have to be conceived +/- 14 days or so by the same parents.
The J.J.-verse goes one further. Technically, their Kirk started off genetically identical to ours. Their Spock did as well and their Scotty and McCoy as well. Their Kirk was born prematurely and has a different birthday. But their Chekov? Explicitly different birthday. Chekov's parents didn't conceive the child who would be Anton Chekov in the Prime timeline. They conceived a different child who they named Anton because he's their only child. The writers actually worked all of this OUT. Their Kirk was born prematurely (or rather Kirk Prime was delayed due to labor slowing drugs)
Point being, killing the inventor of a machine or convincing him not to invent it may have zero impact on the invention.
I feel like there could be a Grand unification of Star Trek's rules wherein alternate universes are only possible while in the process of restoring the predetermined dominant timeline.
Of course, that would require us to close the loop on the jj verse. Which is fine by me. (I've already written that story)
I have to disagree with you. No one really knows how time travel would actually work so stifling creativity, by only taking one theory would be, in my opinion, a bad thing.
Point being, killing the inventor of a machine or convincing him not to invent it may have zero impact on the invention.
The Terminator franchise has explored that option several times. Events don't always have the same exact outcome, but the end result can be essentially the same. It specifically explained why the events of Terminator 2 didn't actually erase Skynet from history, as well as several other things.
Though its unknown if all El-Aurians have that ability or just Guinan, who could have gotten this ability due to being partly in a the nexus.
While the novels have contradicted themselves on this point, I can give you a hint at the STO answer:
We MET an El-Aurian in "Temporal Ambassador" and she was aware of the changes to the timeline.
She may or may not have been in a similar situation to Guinan (ie. part of the same refugee group) but she was also aware of the timeline being changed.
Now... I'll raise an interesting scenario. In "Yesterday's Enterprise", did OTHER El-Aurians besides Guinan notice the change? As far as I know this is untapped.
Theoretically, Tolian Soran and Martus Mazur were out there and also noticed the change. Mazur probably wasn't a Nexus refugee but Soran was and should have noticed.
Also in theory they should have noticed OTHER times when the timeline was changed.
It's a weird thought experiment anyway. Had the Temporal Cold War plot been handled better on Enterprise or had we revisited Relativity on Voyager again, it would have been interesting.
The Star Trek: TNG/Doctor Who comic did compare El-Aurians to Time Lords from Doctor Who and commented that they both have the ability to sense changes in time.
The Spotlight: Borg comic went one further and suggested that El-Aurians are species 001 and that the Borg's assimilation of them also allows the Borg to be aware of changes in the timeline.
Now... If I wanted to tie this all together in game terms...
(I'll step slowly through this.)
1. El-Aurians are scattered throughout the galaxy according to TNG.
2. El-Aurians are one of the few species old enough, prospectively, to remember the Iconians.
3. The Iconians are back.
4. One El-Aurian might not want the Iconians back.
5. An El-Aurian living in the Delta Quadrant would probably remember the "Year of Hell" timeline and the Krenim's temporal weapons.
6. An El-Aurian might empathize with the Krenim being displaced by the Iconians' agents, the Vaadwaur.
7. This El-Aurian might work with the Krenim to reconstruct their temporal weapons to use against the Iconians.
8. We might have very good reason to stop that, particularly if nudged by the Temporal Integrity Commission agents like Walker from Temporal Ambassador.
9. I figure Klingons could be fairly easily persuaded that time travel is a dishonorable tactic. (The cases we have of Klingon time travelers suggest they were dishonored or discommended for cheating and the three Klingon time travelers I can think of were all crazy and bordering on the edge of discommendation if not discommended.) The Federation would also likely take action against someone with a time weapon.
But the outlier...? The Romulans. And I can see this being loosely tied into Temporal Cold War guy (who was intended as a Romulan). The Romulans might well covertly save the blueprints for the temporal weapon. Think about it. Use it on the Hobus star. It MIGHT save Romulus. (Although probably not for a variety of complicated reasons since the explosion wasn't natural.) But the Romulans using a Krenim Weapon Ship to take out Hobus and save Romulus could be the cause of the Temporal Cold War.
I have to disagree with you. No one really knows how time travel would actually work so stifling creativity, by only taking one theory would be, in my opinion, a bad thing.
I can see a middle ground. Which is a tack I've seen comics take. And that is that you have rules but the rules are governed by the type of time machine you're using and/or method of time travel.
This lets you have rules. It also lets you break them simply by introducing a different kind of time machine whose users are subject to different rules.
It's all going to be speculation for either of us anyway, but read what Annorax is reading at the end of the episode.
And like I said before, changing circumstances may not change the outcome. The past changed and he has his wife now. There could be another reason for him to build the ship.
EDIT: also, I really like your sig
The krenim weapon ship does not exist, it never will, if it did then the Vaadwaur would not exist, they never would have because they would have been deleted and we would be fighting the krenim in the delta quadrant.
I feel like there could be a Grand unification of Star Trek's rules wherein alternate universes are only possible while in the process of restoring the predetermined dominant timeline.
Of course, that would require us to close the loop on the jj verse. Which is fine by me. (I've already written that story)
I hear they are looking for a director.
My ideal closing to JJ's trilogy not only resolves the timeline (a Trek tradition) but involves Shatner/Kirk getting killed off properly. If your story does that, I say:
#bringinazniadeet
"Logic is a little tweeting bird chirping in a meadow. Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell BAD." - Spock
My ideal closing to JJ's trilogy not only resolves the timeline (a Trek tradition) but involves Shatner/Kirk getting killed off properly. If your story does that, I say:
#bringinazniadeet
I don't think resolving the timeline is necessary.
But I do think realistically this cast isn't going to be together for more than one film and I want a proper trilogy closure here.
My soft pitch has been:
We open with Kirk racing around the Enterprise as Carol gives birth to David as a full circle nod to Kirk's birth in the first film.
Meanwhile, New Spock is on New Vulcan with a dying Old Spock, who mindmelds with him and decides, ultimately, that the perfect mix of logic and humanity is for him to give New Spock ALL of his knowledge and wisdom.
We see New Spock and New Kirk both exhibiting newfound maturity as they deal with the Klingons. I would break all Trek tradition here and go for a Benjamin Button/Interstellar-type story. The conflict with the Klingons would span decades and we would see the new crew age through it as David grows up.
The villain of the film is Kruge. I'm going to go with Jim Parsons against all odds because he actually has some appearance and stylistic sensibilities in common with Christopher Lloyd.
In the end, Spock and Kirk are able to defeat Kruge without David dying.
Finally, we're left with the coda.
50 Years Later. (Wink, wink. It's Trek's 50th.)
A middle aged David Kirk (Matt Damon cameo?) visits a class of children visiting a museum to tell them about the stars. And answers the questions of an inquisitive young boy with a British accent. David mistakes the boy for British and the boy corrects him, "Actually, sir. I'm French." Someone in the distance yells, "Get over here, Johnny! Take a look at this!" The boy tugs his shirt and runs off to join his friends.
David gets a call from his father. Admiral James T. Kirk. Played by William Shatner.
"I thought you said you weren't going to let them promote you, dad."
"Well, they insisted. Save the universe a few times and see how they repay me! Look, David, we're getting ready to disembark and..."
"We...?"
Nimoy: "Your father requested my assistance on this assignment."
"Uncle Spock!?"
Kirk: "David, I know we've talked about this. I know you've said you're going to take good care of your mother while I'm gone but... I just wanted to say, in case we don't..."
David: "Dad. You sound like you're going away forever."
Kirk: "Forever isn't that long. I'll be back. But I just wanted to say something. A... man I met when I was younger once told me I could have been a great man but that was another life."
David: "You know what they say, 'Don't try to be a great man...'"
Kirk: "There's no much thing as a great man, son. There's only trying to be a better man. Sometimes, it takes the next generation to challenge you to live better."
David: "I love you, dad."
Kirk: "..."
Cut to bridge as Spock and Kirk talk, Spock suppresses a tear. They prepare for departure on an assignment into the unknown, bringing the red matter core online.
Kirk delivers the voiceover one last time over footage of the new crew and the Enterprise warps away. The end.
Is this a good time to mention that even though the designs are great, Breen ships were supposed to be organic? Personally, I'd have rather the Tzenkethi in those designed ships, because the Breen did seem like a strange choice...
And as for the Kremin...all of their weapons were supposed to be temporal science-based, so even if paradox-causing weapon ships were on the production line, they must have had more than just Chroniton Flex Torpedoes up their sleeves!
I don't think resolving the timeline is necessary.
But I do think realistically this cast isn't going to be together for more than one film and I want a proper trilogy closure here.
My soft pitch has been:
We open with Kirk racing around the Enterprise as Carol gives birth to David as a full circle nod to Kirk's birth in the first film.
Meanwhile, New Spock is on New Vulcan with a dying Old Spock, who mindmelds with him and decides, ultimately, that the perfect mix of logic and humanity is for him to give New Spock ALL of his knowledge and wisdom.
We see New Spock and New Kirk both exhibiting newfound maturity as they deal with the Klingons. I would break all Trek tradition here and go for a Benjamin Button/Interstellar-type story. The conflict with the Klingons would span decades and we would see the new crew age through it as David grows up.
The villain of the film is Kruge. I'm going to go with Jim Parsons against all odds because he actually has some appearance and stylistic sensibilities in common with Christopher Lloyd.
In the end, Spock and Kirk are able to defeat Kruge without David dying.
Finally, we're left with the coda.
50 Years Later. (Wink, wink. It's Trek's 50th.)
A middle aged David Kirk (Matt Damon cameo?) visits a class of children visiting a museum to tell them about the stars. And answers the questions of an inquisitive young boy with a British accent. David mistakes the boy for British and the boy corrects him, "Actually, sir. I'm French." Someone in the distance yells, "Get over here, Johnny! Take a look at this!" The boy tugs his shirt and runs off to join his friends.
David gets a call from his father. Admiral James T. Kirk. Played by William Shatner.
"I thought you said you weren't going to let them promote you, dad."
"Well, they insisted. Save the universe a few times and see how they repay me! Look, David, we're getting ready to disembark and..."
"We...?"
Nimoy: "Your father requested my assistance on this assignment."
"Uncle Spock!?"
Kirk: "David, I know we've talked about this. I know you've said you're going to take good care of your mother while I'm gone but... I just wanted to say, in case we don't..."
David: "Dad. You sound like you're going away forever."
Kirk: "Forever isn't that long. I'll be back. But I just wanted to say something. A... man I met when I was younger once told me I could have been a great man but that was another life."
David: "You know what they say, 'Don't try to be a great man...'"
Kirk: "There's no much thing as a great man, son. There's only trying to be a better man. Sometimes, it takes the next generation to challenge you to live better."
David: "I love you, dad."
Kirk: "..."
Cut to bridge as Spock and Kirk talk, Spock suppresses a tear. They prepare for departure on an assignment into the unknown, bringing the red matter core online.
Kirk delivers the voiceover one last time over footage of the new crew and the Enterprise warps away. The end.
man i want to copy this and send it to the execs at paramount....this would be the perfect ending for the new Trek movies
KDF for Life! Romulan at Heart Fed cause they made me ~ :P
Is this a good time to mention that even though the designs are great, Breen ships were supposed to be organic? Personally, I'd have rather the Tzenkethi in those designed ships, because the Breen did seem like a strange choice...
And as for the Kremin...all of their weapons were supposed to be temporal science-based, so even if paradox-causing weapon ships were on the production line, they must have had more than just Chroniton Flex Torpedoes up their sleeves!
1: Breen ships were never said to be totally or even mostly organic, they were said to have organic components. Possibly akin to Bioneural gel packs.
2: that was in certain timelines. It's possible the current timeline doesn't have that.
How old would Shatner/Kirk have to be in order for "Johnny" to be alive when they're at the museum?
About 50 years older than when he took command of the Enterprise.
That's the beauty of it. The entire J.J.-verse is one big Kirk cheat. Peace with the Klingons while defeating Kruge and saving his son then living to a ripe old age when he sets off for the unknown. And the seed of it would be right there if New Spock got ahold of ALL of old Spock's memories.
The central conflict in the war could be, as soon as they see Kruge, Spock knows who Kruge is. He knows that Kruge will be the one ultimately responsible for killing Kirk's son. He knows that Kirk may die at Veridian III. And Kirk knows that Spock knows SOMETHING. But it's Spock's decision to aid Kirk in completely cheating history that the movie could hinge on.
The movie would end with a 75 year-old Admiral Kirk with a living son, commanding the Enterprise-B in 2309 or later. Basically saying "To heck with the timeline!"
Picard would be 4 in 2309.
He might be as old as 14 if you set this movie's final sequences with Pine 8 years after the 2009 Star Trek (which would sync up with Shatner's actual age, making him an 84 year old Kirk).
I kind of like the idea of Kirk getting to cheat and regain everything he ever lost in the Prime timeline. No demotion. Living son. Commands the Enterprise-B. Running around in deep space, out of contact with command, at the age of 85.
Also that old Spock starts off the film dying and transferring his katra to new Spock and by the end, by process of age, we get old Spock back. He has all the memories and he's Nimoy again.
...I am hopeful that they're going to be brought into a future Season as an enemy.
It was such a tease when we got Temporal Science Vessels and Mobius Temporal Destroyers and I really thought it was on the horizon, especially bringing in the Delta Quadrant...going up against a Kremin Weapon Ship in either a Red Alert, a new PvE or an episode, etc.
All of their vessels firing Chroniton Flux Torpedoes that pass through any shields and cause kinetic damage...Brace For Impact can help, but every ship will really need a Temporal Core, which maybe the Temporal Ships could get a bonus or come with a special one.
It's main weapon acts the same as the Borg Mothership...
And if we could get a Temporal Carrier...not with pets that can use Temporal Backstep and the Manheim Device, but just release cool looking Aeons.
The story could go that the Kremin are launching a full scale attack on the galaxy, to destroy every other species and be in total control.
Pretty sure the Krenim looked into all possible temporal scenarios regarding STO, found they could effect no viable solutions to restore the game, and thus moved on to another galaxy, never to be heard from again.
Or at least that's what my sources tell me...
"You shoot him, I shoot you, I leave both your bodies here and go out for a late night snack.
I'm thinking maybe pancakes." ~ John Casey
The expansion isn't over yet. I'm sure they will show up in the future. Just give them time. This new expansion just started.
Plus many players hadn't reached Lv60 yet to see the ending of this current story. This will buy them time to get more completed for future release. Myself hadn't reached Lv60 yet.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
In Priority One Podcast Ep 197, they interview lead writer Christine Kestrel Thompson. She comments about how, when choosing which DQ species to cover, they had to leave out some favorites because they didn't have time to do them right, so they got shelved for future episodes. I suspect that's what happened to the Krenim.
That or Kurtwood "Dumbass" Smith wasn't available for VO work...
As to the Wibbly-Wobbly Timey-Wimey stuff, meh.
"Logic is a little tweeting bird chirping in a meadow. Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell BAD." - Spock
THAT ship was deleted, but not Annorax and not his, or any other Kremin's ability to build another.
silly debate missing a significant dose of reality on the subject, one thing everyone arguing it is missing, where in time did this reset? it was stated that the ship annorax had built could phase out of time and centuries could pass without the crew noticing any effect to themselves. who knows how long this ship had been out of the timeline trying to correct a previous mistake in their calculations to bring the captains wife back. the imperium he cared about to do it but his wife was far more important to annorax then the crew or the empire. when the ship was destroyed the timeline reverted, but to what point and how far back? that was never established. the truth is there was never any proof the krenim had ever developed time based weapons and technology since it never happened.
T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW. Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
My ideal closing to JJ's trilogy not only resolves the timeline (a Trek tradition) but involves Shatner/Kirk getting killed off properly. If your story does that, I say:
As said in an earlier post, the Krenim didn't have the ability to time travel. They were able to use tech that allowed them to exist outside of normal space-time and a weapon with the ability to erase races, thus altering timelines, but we saw NO evidence that they could actually physically transport themselves through time.
Heck, if they did have the ability to do so, 'Year of Hell' would have been a very short and uninteresting episode; Annorax would only have needed to hop back in time and prevent the catalyst of the events from occurring.
You have to read what I am writing.
I said "this is STO".
Cryptic will make it so that the Krenim come down to time travel and time weapons.
A YEAR of hell and yet only a terrific two-parter, oh and Kes' preview of it.
And also, oh how I wish Neelix had been an El-Aurian instead of a Talaxian...REAL knowledge of 70,000 light years, because he'd actually been the the Alpha Quadrant and then come back...
You have to read what I am writing.
I said "this is STO".
Cryptic will make it so that the Krenim come down to time trave and time weapons.
Except Cryptic already made it so that the Krenim got their asses handed to them offscreen by the Vaads.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Except Cryptic already made it so that the Krenim got their asses handed to them offscreen by the Vaads.
Although that would be some excellent motivation for Krenim scientists to look into more aggressive types of weaponry.
Such as those that cause things to never have existed.
Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
Comments
Trek does have sometimes inconsistent approaches to time travel.
But not all time travel follows the idea that a butterfly effect pattern is even possible. (And some elements of Trek works AGAINST the butterfly effect even if things like the death of Edith Keeler show that butterfly effect changes are possible.)
Months after Robert Fulton patented his steam engine design, the patent office was flooded with identical designs. When Fulton was asked how so many people could submit identical designs almost at once, he downplayed the originality of his own design and said, "I guess it's just steam engine time."
There is the theory that history has a current it clings to (which City on the Edge of Forever itself suggested might generally be true).
So while the death or survival of Edith Keeler may change EVERYTHING, it may change absolutely nothing if you went back and killed Hitler or FDR or Napoleon or Genghis Khan. Somebody else would simply do what they did in more or less the same way at more or less the same time and the net effect would be maybe the eye color of a few people change but the shape of history wouldn't change. Eliminate them and somebody takes their place.
"Parallels" hinges on that. Look at all the timelines in that episode. And yet they're all observing the same satellite in the same region of space. (Granted, we get a confirmation bias here in that we wouldn't see versions where that didn't happen but Worf never just finds himself shifted over into the vacuum of space.)
The Mirror Universe relies on a pretty heavy application of destiny rather than chaos theory. It relies on a large quantity of the exact same people conceiving the exact same people within a very narrow window of one another despite wildly different circumstances. In order to have a twin in the Mirror Universe? They have to be conceived +/- 14 days or so by the same parents.
The J.J.-verse goes one further. Technically, their Kirk started off genetically identical to ours. Their Spock did as well and their Scotty and McCoy as well. Their Kirk was born prematurely and has a different birthday. But their Chekov? Explicitly different birthday. Chekov's parents didn't conceive the child who would be Anton Chekov in the Prime timeline. They conceived a different child who they named Anton because he's their only child. The writers actually worked all of this OUT. Their Kirk was born prematurely (or rather Kirk Prime was delayed due to labor slowing drugs)
Point being, killing the inventor of a machine or convincing him not to invent it may have zero impact on the invention.
Krenim lockbox confirmed!
And this is why time travel is an absolutely terrible plot device if you want anything resembling internal consistency.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
I feel like there could be a Grand unification of Star Trek's rules wherein alternate universes are only possible while in the process of restoring the predetermined dominant timeline.
Of course, that would require us to close the loop on the jj verse. Which is fine by me. (I've already written that story)
Well said
I have to disagree with you. No one really knows how time travel would actually work so stifling creativity, by only taking one theory would be, in my opinion, a bad thing.
My character Tsin'xing
While the novels have contradicted themselves on this point, I can give you a hint at the STO answer:
We MET an El-Aurian in "Temporal Ambassador" and she was aware of the changes to the timeline.
She may or may not have been in a similar situation to Guinan (ie. part of the same refugee group) but she was also aware of the timeline being changed.
Now... I'll raise an interesting scenario. In "Yesterday's Enterprise", did OTHER El-Aurians besides Guinan notice the change? As far as I know this is untapped.
Theoretically, Tolian Soran and Martus Mazur were out there and also noticed the change. Mazur probably wasn't a Nexus refugee but Soran was and should have noticed.
Also in theory they should have noticed OTHER times when the timeline was changed.
It's a weird thought experiment anyway. Had the Temporal Cold War plot been handled better on Enterprise or had we revisited Relativity on Voyager again, it would have been interesting.
The Star Trek: TNG/Doctor Who comic did compare El-Aurians to Time Lords from Doctor Who and commented that they both have the ability to sense changes in time.
The Spotlight: Borg comic went one further and suggested that El-Aurians are species 001 and that the Borg's assimilation of them also allows the Borg to be aware of changes in the timeline.
Now... If I wanted to tie this all together in game terms...
(I'll step slowly through this.)
1. El-Aurians are scattered throughout the galaxy according to TNG.
2. El-Aurians are one of the few species old enough, prospectively, to remember the Iconians.
3. The Iconians are back.
4. One El-Aurian might not want the Iconians back.
5. An El-Aurian living in the Delta Quadrant would probably remember the "Year of Hell" timeline and the Krenim's temporal weapons.
6. An El-Aurian might empathize with the Krenim being displaced by the Iconians' agents, the Vaadwaur.
7. This El-Aurian might work with the Krenim to reconstruct their temporal weapons to use against the Iconians.
8. We might have very good reason to stop that, particularly if nudged by the Temporal Integrity Commission agents like Walker from Temporal Ambassador.
9. I figure Klingons could be fairly easily persuaded that time travel is a dishonorable tactic. (The cases we have of Klingon time travelers suggest they were dishonored or discommended for cheating and the three Klingon time travelers I can think of were all crazy and bordering on the edge of discommendation if not discommended.) The Federation would also likely take action against someone with a time weapon.
But the outlier...? The Romulans. And I can see this being loosely tied into Temporal Cold War guy (who was intended as a Romulan). The Romulans might well covertly save the blueprints for the temporal weapon. Think about it. Use it on the Hobus star. It MIGHT save Romulus. (Although probably not for a variety of complicated reasons since the explosion wasn't natural.) But the Romulans using a Krenim Weapon Ship to take out Hobus and save Romulus could be the cause of the Temporal Cold War.
I can see a middle ground. Which is a tack I've seen comics take. And that is that you have rules but the rules are governed by the type of time machine you're using and/or method of time travel.
This lets you have rules. It also lets you break them simply by introducing a different kind of time machine whose users are subject to different rules.
The krenim weapon ship does not exist, it never will, if it did then the Vaadwaur would not exist, they never would have because they would have been deleted and we would be fighting the krenim in the delta quadrant.
I hear they are looking for a director.
My ideal closing to JJ's trilogy not only resolves the timeline (a Trek tradition) but involves Shatner/Kirk getting killed off properly. If your story does that, I say:
#bringinazniadeet
I don't think resolving the timeline is necessary.
But I do think realistically this cast isn't going to be together for more than one film and I want a proper trilogy closure here.
My soft pitch has been:
We open with Kirk racing around the Enterprise as Carol gives birth to David as a full circle nod to Kirk's birth in the first film.
Meanwhile, New Spock is on New Vulcan with a dying Old Spock, who mindmelds with him and decides, ultimately, that the perfect mix of logic and humanity is for him to give New Spock ALL of his knowledge and wisdom.
We see New Spock and New Kirk both exhibiting newfound maturity as they deal with the Klingons. I would break all Trek tradition here and go for a Benjamin Button/Interstellar-type story. The conflict with the Klingons would span decades and we would see the new crew age through it as David grows up.
The villain of the film is Kruge. I'm going to go with Jim Parsons against all odds because he actually has some appearance and stylistic sensibilities in common with Christopher Lloyd.
In the end, Spock and Kirk are able to defeat Kruge without David dying.
Finally, we're left with the coda.
50 Years Later. (Wink, wink. It's Trek's 50th.)
A middle aged David Kirk (Matt Damon cameo?) visits a class of children visiting a museum to tell them about the stars. And answers the questions of an inquisitive young boy with a British accent. David mistakes the boy for British and the boy corrects him, "Actually, sir. I'm French." Someone in the distance yells, "Get over here, Johnny! Take a look at this!" The boy tugs his shirt and runs off to join his friends.
David gets a call from his father. Admiral James T. Kirk. Played by William Shatner.
"I thought you said you weren't going to let them promote you, dad."
"Well, they insisted. Save the universe a few times and see how they repay me! Look, David, we're getting ready to disembark and..."
"We...?"
Nimoy: "Your father requested my assistance on this assignment."
"Uncle Spock!?"
Kirk: "David, I know we've talked about this. I know you've said you're going to take good care of your mother while I'm gone but... I just wanted to say, in case we don't..."
David: "Dad. You sound like you're going away forever."
Kirk: "Forever isn't that long. I'll be back. But I just wanted to say something. A... man I met when I was younger once told me I could have been a great man but that was another life."
David: "You know what they say, 'Don't try to be a great man...'"
Kirk: "There's no much thing as a great man, son. There's only trying to be a better man. Sometimes, it takes the next generation to challenge you to live better."
David: "I love you, dad."
Kirk: "..."
Cut to bridge as Spock and Kirk talk, Spock suppresses a tear. They prepare for departure on an assignment into the unknown, bringing the red matter core online.
Kirk delivers the voiceover one last time over footage of the new crew and the Enterprise warps away. The end.
And as for the Kremin...all of their weapons were supposed to be temporal science-based, so even if paradox-causing weapon ships were on the production line, they must have had more than just Chroniton Flex Torpedoes up their sleeves!
man i want to copy this and send it to the execs at paramount....this would be the perfect ending for the new Trek movies
2: that was in certain timelines. It's possible the current timeline doesn't have that.
My character Tsin'xing
About 50 years older than when he took command of the Enterprise.
That's the beauty of it. The entire J.J.-verse is one big Kirk cheat. Peace with the Klingons while defeating Kruge and saving his son then living to a ripe old age when he sets off for the unknown. And the seed of it would be right there if New Spock got ahold of ALL of old Spock's memories.
The central conflict in the war could be, as soon as they see Kruge, Spock knows who Kruge is. He knows that Kruge will be the one ultimately responsible for killing Kirk's son. He knows that Kirk may die at Veridian III. And Kirk knows that Spock knows SOMETHING. But it's Spock's decision to aid Kirk in completely cheating history that the movie could hinge on.
The movie would end with a 75 year-old Admiral Kirk with a living son, commanding the Enterprise-B in 2309 or later. Basically saying "To heck with the timeline!"
Picard would be 4 in 2309.
He might be as old as 14 if you set this movie's final sequences with Pine 8 years after the 2009 Star Trek (which would sync up with Shatner's actual age, making him an 84 year old Kirk).
I kind of like the idea of Kirk getting to cheat and regain everything he ever lost in the Prime timeline. No demotion. Living son. Commands the Enterprise-B. Running around in deep space, out of contact with command, at the age of 85.
Also that old Spock starts off the film dying and transferring his katra to new Spock and by the end, by process of age, we get old Spock back. He has all the memories and he's Nimoy again.
Pretty sure the Krenim looked into all possible temporal scenarios regarding STO, found they could effect no viable solutions to restore the game, and thus moved on to another galaxy, never to be heard from again.
Or at least that's what my sources tell me...
"You shoot him, I shoot you, I leave both your bodies here and go out for a late night snack.
I'm thinking maybe pancakes." ~ John Casey
Plus many players hadn't reached Lv60 yet to see the ending of this current story. This will buy them time to get more completed for future release. Myself hadn't reached Lv60 yet.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
silly debate missing a significant dose of reality on the subject, one thing everyone arguing it is missing, where in time did this reset? it was stated that the ship annorax had built could phase out of time and centuries could pass without the crew noticing any effect to themselves. who knows how long this ship had been out of the timeline trying to correct a previous mistake in their calculations to bring the captains wife back. the imperium he cared about to do it but his wife was far more important to annorax then the crew or the empire. when the ship was destroyed the timeline reverted, but to what point and how far back? that was never established. the truth is there was never any proof the krenim had ever developed time based weapons and technology since it never happened.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
kirk was born 2233.
picard was born 2305.
72 years.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
This is my favorite hashtag ever!
You have to read what I am writing.
I said "this is STO".
Cryptic will make it so that the Krenim come down to time travel and time weapons.
And also, oh how I wish Neelix had been an El-Aurian instead of a Talaxian...REAL knowledge of 70,000 light years, because he'd actually been the the Alpha Quadrant and then come back...
Except Cryptic already made it so that the Krenim got their asses handed to them offscreen by the Vaads.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
Although that would be some excellent motivation for Krenim scientists to look into more aggressive types of weaponry.
Such as those that cause things to never have existed.
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!