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    opo98opo98 Member Posts: 435 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    dkratasco wrote: »
    Numbers shows that queues are empty, but they don't show why or that missions aren't played at all. Missions which weren't played before DR still aren't played, but as I look at "playing" column I still see same numbers of players doing same missions as previously (taking into account the outflow for the event) only difference is that they get in 'game' other way than queue, it means they gone private.

    I'm sorry, but this post is a farce. If you look at the launch of the previous expansion, Legacy of Romulus, there were at least 120 people queued up for Infected Elite at one time, not to mention LOR brought similar numbers of players to the game as DR.

    There were literally hundreds of people in the queues last expansion, both in PvE and PvP, and there was an entire new storyline that they could have done instead. Now post DR you are lucky to see over 100.

    So no, the argument that "Argala drew them away" or " DR story drew them away" is not accurate in the slightest. There is nothing so compelling about these things that would drive people away from the queues. People don't exclusively play content in STO, you should know this by now.

    In fact there is no reason queues are empty other than the fact that they are undesirable in some way.

    You would think that other things are taking people away from the queues, but in a theme park game like STO, it's easy to see the cause of any disease plaguing the game.
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    lianthelialianthelia Member Posts: 7,834 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    opo98 wrote: »
    Let me guess, you roll a Romulan tactical in some kind of 5 tactical console warbird?

    Oh trust me I know, sometimes the power of the Scimitar and similar Romulan ships can really mess with your head; absolute power corrupts absolutely.

    I shelved my Fed in DR to work on my Romulan tac myself, because they were outrageously OP pre-DR and now I daresay necessary post-DR.

    Sometimes you have to take the perspective of others when you speak, because looking at the game from your own perspective only can sometimes cloud issues at hand.

    Now you may respond to this negatively, but I maintain that it would be a good idea for you to look at it from the perspective of a player that perhaps does not have all the answers or gear such as you.

    In any video game, there are bound to be countless scrubs and unoptimized builds, but the fact that they are not very good should not discount them from playing at least what is "middle of the road" content (I.e. Advanced Queues).

    Trust me, in every video game I've played, scrubs outnumber good players at least 10:1, so in that context these fail queues are a pretty unreasonable expectation.

    Umm not even close, I've been running a Vesta and moved onto a Pathfinder when it was released...a torp one at that...on a Sci character.
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    opo98opo98 Member Posts: 435 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    lianthelia wrote: »
    Umm not even close, I've been running a Vesta and moved onto a Pathfinder when it was released...a torp one at that...on a Sci character.

    The rest of my post still applies dear selective reader. :P
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    ddesjardinsddesjardins Member Posts: 3,056 Media Corps
    edited December 2014
    Uhm ok - had to reread it twice to figure out what you cut.

    I guess that qualified as unacceptable :(


    This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies . ~Bluegeek
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    meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,594 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    opo98 wrote: »
    i'm Sorry, But This Post Is A Farce. If You Look At The Launch Of The Previous Expansion, Legacy Of Romulus, There Were At Least 120 People Queued Up For Infected Elite At One Time, Not To Mention Lor Brought Similar Numbers Of Players To The Game As Dr.

    There Were Literally Hundreds Of People In The Queues Last Expansion, Both In Pve And Pvp, And There Was An Entire New Storyline That They Could Have Done Instead. Now Post Dr You Are Lucky To See Over 100.

    So No, The Argument That "argala Drew Them Away" Or " Dr Story Drew Them Away" Is Not Accurate In The Slightest. There Is Nothing So Compelling About These Things That Would Drive People Away From The Queues. People Don't Exclusively Play Content In Sto, You Should Know This By Now.

    In Fact There Is No Reason Queues Are Empty Other Than The Fact That They Are Undesirable In Some Way.


    ^^ Qft!

    /120
    3lsZz0w.jpg
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    dkratascodkratasco Member Posts: 585 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    valoreah wrote: »
    Oh come on. What do you think happened? Everyone who regularly played queued events prior to DR suddenly decided to go outside and play instead? Just read the forums here, articles being posted on gaming sites etc. People stopped playing them because the reward was no longer worth the effort.

    I can say you what happened but than Bluegeek will probably have to edit my post, so I will try to be as delicate as I can.

    Cryptic provide some changes which should had place years ago (fact that they put too much at once is other discussion). XP change hell yeah it was needed. New players getting maks lv in two weeks without even sweating or learning a bit about game? No, it shouldn't work that way. Elite or even advance missions done by random pug without gear, knowledge and teamwork? No, it shouldn't work that way. And many others. So some people who could use, one thing that supposedly proves the superiority of humans over animals, thinking and adapt (find good fleets, teams, friends, channels and gone private) while rest start crying, find themselves some comfortable corner and sob about how Cryptic is bad because it want them to use brain.

    I didn't feel a lack of players who wants do PvE missions, but maybe its because I'm in fleet which want to teach new players and expect from them that they want to listen.
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    thutmosis85thutmosis85 Member Posts: 2,358 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    dkratasco wrote: »
    I can say you what happened but than Bluegeek will probably have to edit my post, so I will try to be as delicate as I can.

    Cryptic provide some changes which should had place years ago (fact that they put too much at once is other discussion). XP change hell yeah it was needed. New players getting maks lv in two weeks without even sweating or learning a bit about game? No, it shouldn't work that way. Elite or even advance missions done by random pug without gear, knowledge and teamwork? No, it shouldn't work that way. And many others. So some people who could use, one thing that supposedly proves the superiority of humans over animals, thinking and adapt (find good fleets, teams, friends, channels and gone private) while rest start crying, find themselves some comfortable corner and sob about how Cryptic is bad because it want them to use brain.

    Welcome to your abandoned Elitest-Wonderland then ... as for "using your brain" ... most people might not want to, because they'd rather sit back relax & enjoy a video-game ... not a second job ...

    Your concept might work in complex video-games like some TBS-Games etc (where people know were they're gettin into) ... but not in a casual F2P MMO with 75% of it's "content" in PVE-Queues ...
    Patch Notes : Resolved an Issue, where people would accidently experience Fun.
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    dkratascodkratasco Member Posts: 585 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Welcome to your abandoned Elitest-Wonderland then ...

    Ok so as a teacher I will say that if being "elitest" means that I don't care about someone that on his/her own choice decide to not learn and be dumb and repeating year, than I'm apparently "elitest". I give him/her choice, tools, I offer him/her my knowledge but he/she doesn't want it than be free go home and cry how world is bad and cruel, I don't care. I would rather go and try my best to make bast of those who want to learn. But when you get of your home you will find that world is still bad and cruel, guess what it will be your problem that you didn't try, not someones else.
    ... as for "using your brain" ... most people might not want to, because they'd rather sit back relax & enjoy a video-game ... not a second job ...

    Oww... so thinking is now full time job?
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    sheldonlcoopersheldonlcooper Member Posts: 4,042 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    It's sad that the leetsters can not understand the problem here.

    The health of the game is paramount. or CBS but I digress. Punchy.

    You can not change a very casual and very generous game to being a leeeet only raid game in one day. Nevermind the fact that most difficult games are being made easier these days so they can stay in business.

    STO used to pay out way more of the real game currency than any game I've seen. They are cutting back on this - okay - I can handle it.

    STO used to allow leveling to max in 1 week. Now the level 110 is more like 6 months for me. I describe myself as hardcore casual. And I am fine with this.

    STO used to have very casual fun and easy endgame group content. This was eliminated with the HP bags and failqueues. Whoa. Now all of a sudden I can't pug. That pisses me off. Now we have a problem.

    Others have the same problem with situations 1 and 2. The result = empty queues.

    Cryptic will wake up one morning in late January. They will see the player logins and notice that they are half what they were in late September. They will go into full panic mode - release some ridiculous lockboxes they have been saving. They will return the queue rewards and remove the fail conditions. They will have dilithium weekend. etc etc. But I think by then it may be too late. With the population cut in half or worse the game will likely go into maintenance mode after the anniversary. How long it will last after that depends on how long they can milk the few big spenders.
    Captain Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. Then - before you can blink an eye - suddenly it threatens to start all over again."

    "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

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    hartzillahartzilla Member Posts: 1,177 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    dkratasco wrote: »
    Ok so as a teacher I will say that if being "elitest" means that I don't care about.....

    This is a video game, not school, not work, and not really any thing that important in the grand scheme of things.
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    dkratascodkratasco Member Posts: 585 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    valoreah wrote: »
    LOL! Give me a break. There is nothing about this or any Cryptic game that requires you to use your brain in any significant way. I'm geninuinely curious what you feel there is to "learn about the game"? What you need to know about how to play, you've learned by the time you've completed the tutorial.

    Sorry, not every game in the world needs to mold itself after World of YouKnowWhat in terms of difficulty or gear progression.

    From my personal experience, based on myself, friends, fleetmates and other players I know, the bottom line is reduced rewards + increased difficulty = empty queues. It has nothing to do with running advanced or elite. The amount of time required now is simply not worth the effort.

    I've done many pugs before DR and at almost every I had at least one player who use X dmg type with Y dmg consoles. Use random skills at random situation without apparently knowing what specific skill do (Boarding party send for generator?) Using 4 skills with shared cd (at least two are at constant cd) and many other simple mistakes which could be solved be reading in game info, not even forum, like item/skill description or tooltip.
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    thutmosis85thutmosis85 Member Posts: 2,358 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    dkratasco wrote: »
    Oww... so thinking is now full time job?

    If you came here for "not thinking" (still debatable btw, since there is no AI Increase etc) in the first place ... then yep -> (see what "sheldoncooper" just said) ... I guess you never sit back watch a stupid movie, listen to Music without analyzing it's structure etc ...
    dkratasco wrote: »
    Ok so as a teacher I will say that if being "elitest" means that I don't care about someone that on his/her own choice decide to not learn and be dumb and repeating year, than I'm apparently "elitest".

    Sounds like a horrible teacher btw ... maybe talk to your students & find out why they don't "want to learn" ... this Thread might help there ... or better leave your job to a talking robot ...
    Patch Notes : Resolved an Issue, where people would accidently experience Fun.
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    dkratascodkratasco Member Posts: 585 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    valoreah wrote: »
    I'm curious how you saw what consoles people had equipped....

    As for the rest, you're going to have people with poor builds/skills no matter what you do. Nothing in DR will change that.

    Guess what? Not everyone is a min/maxer and is going to build out their characters to play the way you do. This is the nature of MMOs.

    Ever hear about Gateway?
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    jagdhippiesjagdhippies Member Posts: 676 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    dkratasco wrote: »
    Classic Fleet Actions like Gorn Minefield or Big Dig were already empty long time ago and it has nothing to do with DR or any change which came with it. As to other queses like STF's many people simply go 'private' having enough failing PUG who don't know what to do on adv or came with 2-3k ships which blows at one-on-one with probe. At least being in good fleet is useful now.

    Speak for yourself, I did gorn minefield almost every other day before DR. I never had to wait long for it to kick off either.
    My carrier is more powerful than your gal-dread
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    varekraithvarekraith Member Posts: 198 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    valoreah wrote: »

    I'm still curious how DR "fixed" any issues with bad builds/poor skills.

    Because this is the best expansion ever and the players love it, you silly targ.
    :P
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    dkratascodkratasco Member Posts: 585 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    valoreah wrote: »
    So.... you took the time to look at people's builds during a match? A few things come to mind reading that...

    1. LOL
    2. LMAO
    3. You have issues.
    4. If the builds/skills of others are so important to you, don't PUG.

    I'm still curious how DR "fixed" any issues with bad builds/poor skills.

    Who said about checking during match?

    And thank you doctor. Yes I have issues, I like to help others get better, so I need to know where is the problem what allow me to show such player possible solution.

    DR "fixed" it very easily, if you didn't think at least a bit how to build your ship than you will simply fail mission. Before DR there wasn't something like fail in most queues, they could take hours but you couldn't fail it.
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    jagdhippiesjagdhippies Member Posts: 676 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    STO used to have very casual fun and easy endgame group content. This was eliminated with the HP bags and failqueues. Whoa. Now all of a sudden I can't pug. That pisses me off. Now we have a problem.

    Others have the same problem with situations 1 and 2. The result = empty queues.

    Cryptic will wake up one morning in late January. They will see the player logins and notice that they are half what they were in late September. They will go into full panic mode - release some ridiculous lockboxes they have been saving. They will return the queue rewards and remove the fail conditions. They will have dilithium weekend. etc etc. But I think by then it may be too late. With the population cut in half or worse the game will likely go into maintenance mode after the anniversary. How long it will last after that depends on how long they can milk the few big spenders.

    I agree with this the most, but I think January is too late. This must be fixed in the next week or two so people can play this game over the holidays. If what few casual players we have left cannot play this game over the holiday break, then they will likely play and get hooked on another game/hobby.

    Then the few of us left will have NOTHING TO DO come January/February and even I might stop logging in.

    Side note, I am not sure why I login anymore. The pugs are GONE, my fleet is GONE (EVERYTHING T5), and I am too bored to stay logged in past my daily Winter Event race. The only thing this game has going for it is the queues (even that is VERY SAD for endgame content) and those are not filled at all.

    Once I am done with my daily winter race, I have NOTHING TO DO! and I bail out....
    My carrier is more powerful than your gal-dread
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    lordmalak1lordmalak1 Member Posts: 4,681 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Cryptics metrics do NOT lie:
    their metrics are showing the queues full and it's a display bug
    their metrics showed many were cheating while accumulating their skill points
    their metrics showed the content was too easy and the players wanted more challenge
    their metrics are showing DR is the best upgrade they've ever offered and the players love it
    their metrics show that power creep works in their other game so it'll work in sto
    their metrics show players have too much dilithium and need a place to spend it
    their metrics show they are making money and attracting huge numbers of new players
    their metrics show players almost always opt for winter wunderland over other content during the holiday season, but always return afterwards

    Whatever problems we players think we see are just figments of our imaginations.
    KBF Lord MalaK
    Awoken Dead
    giphy.gif

    Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
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    jagdhippiesjagdhippies Member Posts: 676 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    lordmalak1 wrote: »
    Cryptics metrics do NOT lie:
    their metrics are showing the queues full and it's a display bug
    their metrics showed many were cheating while accumulating their skill points
    their metrics showed the content was too easy and the players wanted more challenge
    their metrics are showing DR is the best upgrade they've ever offered and the players love it
    their metrics show that power creep works in their other game so it'll work in sto
    their metrics show players have too much dilithium and need a place to spend it
    their metrics show they are making money and attracting huge numbers of new players
    their metrics show players almost always opt for winter wunderland over other content during the holiday season, but always return afterwards

    Whatever problems we players think we see are just figments of our imaginations.

    One can hope
    My carrier is more powerful than your gal-dread
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    ginobaldelli823ginobaldelli823 Member Posts: 325 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Ok maybe its just luck of the draw or something but all I do is PUG's and get the full completion about 95% of the time, KSA, CCA, CSA, ISA, yes i will wait a few minutes between ques but that always happened even before DR launched. the non stf ques always popped slowly (except for Star Base 24) which makes no sense because of the daily mission available for them should make them top running.

    Did have one run the other day in Disco Advanced where a guy was just following me around, we won just barely, did I scram and moan about the guy no, I just added him to my Ignore list don't have to worry about teaming with him again.

    In a different run of Disco a guy said in chat "People are not splitting up, I'm not doing this with noobs" and he left, that guy also put on the ignore list as well. The ques might be empty because of ^%^&RT(%^$*^&*^&( people, or people might be leveling their eq as well.
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    antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    In a different run of Disco a guy said in chat "People are not splitting up, I'm not doing this with noobs" and he left, that guy also put on the ignore list as well. The ques might be empty because of ^%^&RT(%^$*^&*^&( people, or people might be leveling their eq as well.

    Don't drink the Cryptic coolaid. There metrics are wrong plain and simple.

    200+ people on my friends list that are semi current players. A few months ago any time of the day I logged in there where 40-50 people on my list on line. The other night when I logged in there where 3.

    The only Executive producer that inspires any faith in me for MMO gaming right now is CCP seagull. ;)

    The ques are dead, because there are a ton of players with at least one foot out the door. Honestly the longer Cryptic puts off fixing the issues they created for themselves... the more likely that people like seagull will pilfer what is left of there paying customer base.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
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    j0hn41j0hn41 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    I don't know how much of a contributing factor fail conditions are to the empty queues, but I can't see Cryptic changing it anytime soon.

    Missions have to be failed a lot, to keep the market from getting flooded by cheap VR R&D materials. If the value of R&D materials is higher, people will buy the R&D packs for zen in the c-store.

    Just look at bug hunt, and the price of those materials. I can see it getting an impossible "optional" objective to bring the price of the mats back in line.
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    antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    j0hn41 wrote: »
    I don't know how much of a contributing factor fail conditions are to the empty queues, but I can't see Cryptic changing it anytime soon.

    Missions have to be failed a lot, to keep the market from getting flooded by cheap VR R&D materials. If the value of R&D materials is higher, people will buy the R&D packs for zen in the c-store.

    Just look at bug hunt, and the price of those materials. I can see it getting an impossible "optional" objective to bring the price of the mats back in line.

    If they where concerned about the price of Very rare materials they would not have just reduced the number of them needed to craft stuff.

    The R&D boxes will always sell because they contain things you can't obtain anywhere else like Tech boosts and catalysts. The VR stuff is just a nice bonus. Its those that set the EC value of R&D boxes... every Zen store box has 4 Upgrade boosters every time... which will always be a min 2 mil EC and average around 3 mil.

    They can also drive the cost on them any time they want by using them to push the golden snitch ships... which go figure there doing right now. ;)
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Dignity and an empty sack is worth the sack.
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    ddesjardinsddesjardins Member Posts: 3,056 Media Corps
    edited December 2014
    ..snip..
    200+ people on my friends list that are semi current players. A few months ago any time of the day I logged in there where 40-50 people on my list on line. The other night when I logged in there where 3.
    ..snip..

    Totally agree.

    We can agree that the end result of Cryptics actions has had a number of intended consequences. One was to raise revenue - that was successful. The second (unintended?) was to reduce the strain on resources by reducing the F2P players.

    The only data source I have is the login rates of 4 fleets; 2 I'm a member in, and 2 from someone I trust. Gateway is our tool for measurement, as it can provide the actual login data from every member. Is what we see indicative of STO as a whole? I would not presume to say it is, but if we could place bets I'd feel comfortable placing a heavy bet.

    Of our fed-aligned fleet members, we've seen the login rates drop by 62%. People who formerly played daily, now login once a week for a very short time.

    Of our kdf-aligned fleet members,the drop in login rates is slightly less at about 55%.

    The amount of time people remain logged in has also dropped.

    On a personal level - counting heads while looking at my friends list - the number of people I would grind STF's with has dropped significantly. Where putting a private match together in any of the open chat channels might have taken 60 seconds at this time last year, now takes significantly longer - if you can put together a group at all. Want to run something most people avoided in the past? Forget about it.
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    xaramanxaraman Member Posts: 291 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Lets say that average person in our country can't read (he could be but he doesn't want) is this means that we should change our educational system to lower its level and getting rid off whole idea of teaching reading?
    However,

    In your country you have an education system. On STO, you're just left to dangle in the breeze and figure it out yourself after tutorial. You may be lucky and get in with an established fleet with good gear, teachers and members who are willing to help. But, more than likely on your way up to the top of the leet ladder, you'll find yourself in a fleet that just serves as a stop gap or a provisions leech.

    If STO had a proper education system in relation to tactics, builds, powers and mechanics, I would agree with you (I'm not talking about the wiki or the academy; they're member created resources). However it doesn't, so you will find that the AVERAGE member (you're not average and neither are your top fleet members/students) will not have your fleet members capabilities.

    Cryptic have to cater to the average and what we've seen over the last month or so is them using their metrics to see that the average player is not being catered for. Expect to see more "difficulty nerfs" as they get closer to catering for the average.

    You may not like it, but hey; that's what the elite queues are for ;)
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