But I think STO is doing pretty cool stuff. We have new missions every few months, and the occassional expansion. We have a lot of features, endgame content.
New missions now and then are great and fun to play, yes.
Concerning the occassional expansion, i would say it depends on the small print of the whole package.
Features (and new systems which Cryptic loves) are also great, but sometimes i think we already have enough of them. My thx to the higher powers that they are short of a systems designer atm. But that will delay them just a little.
Endgame content is debatable. The one side would say we already have enough, others would say we need much more. Cryptic seems more and more interested in funneling us exclusively into the new shiny. It is one thing when it's there. Offered as an option. But when this 'option' is artificially buffed, other things nerfed, the time / reward ratio unbalanced, you get a 'fun-killing' game design. With intend on milking money out of the customers, and at the same time it tweaks their metrics.
The current major complaint is: "My progress bar is not moving fast enough". Sorry, that is really what the only real issue is. It sounds to me like it is both to a large extent subjective, but it's also something that wouldn't require major rework to figure out.
It is by far not the only issue! And it honestly surprises me a little that you state something like that as a regular forum poster.
Dilithium costs across the board are too high. Until i missed it, Geko only spoke about Dilithium earing in the game. It seems Cryptic always comes with the argument that the balance of earning Dilithium is important and in some places off. Yes it's true, in some places, but overall we already have many different ways to earn our Dilithium. And believe me there are methods in the game, that alows you to earn your 8k daily per Toon really quick. The problem are the Dilithium costs! The costs of items, upgrades, fleet support and so on.
Next issue: Playing Alts. That is connected with the just mentioned Dilithium cost issue, and the XP gain rate.
Another issue: Empty queues. Seems like a lot of PvE missions are not worth the trouble atm. There are answers all over the forum to the 'why'.
Another issue: A lot people found the DR mission layout (mission; patrols+++; mission; patrols+++ ...) rather frustrating.
Another issue: Klingon & Romulan players feel an imbalance in terms of T6 ships. This could be just temporary.
And the ongoing issue: Bugs. Yes, we will always encounter them, but we still have some really nasty onces.
So nope, the XP issue is by far not the only issue.
Come on - this is the company that in this year has given us extra inventory and BO slots, a completely new inventory category so our crafting items no longer occupy the regular loot and stuff, that has modified the reputation system to be more alt-friendly via sponsorship tokens and daily reward bonuses.
Extra inventory and BO slots + a completely new inventory category was just a clever business move. Particularly with the new Intel Officers, Crafting & Upgrade System in mind. Simultaneously it made them look good. Something i can still vividly remember, was a snarky Geko comment about it. I think it was on P1. How nobody at the time thanked Cryptic for it. Something along these lines.
Sponsorship tokens and daily reward bonuses are a good example how to reward the players for their ingame playtime. Imho those are the things that contribute to a better and more fun gameplay.
The sad thing is that I found the story line and voice acting very enjoyable, but have given up trying to continue with it because by the time I have grinded patrols to reach the next level, I have forgotten what happened before hand.
I really don't understand the logic behind it, it just makes the whole expansion feel very jarring and unenjoyable.
^^^ So much this.
I really enjoyed the storyline but having to grind between episodes as a casual meant that weeks would pass between them.
My guess is "hope" keeps people not playing but posting on the forums. For others, its a path of sad realization and closure. Grieving takes time. The worst "haters" here love the game, or did at some point.
You are effectively sacrificing the rest of the game, all other story missions pay out 2030 XP, STFs and other queues even less, whereas an Argala Patrol is over 10,000 which by the way is still way too low and doesn't satisfy the "You won't be levelling any slower" BS we got on the Nov 20th Patch.
So Devs, please explain your rationale here, oh I know you have no intention of answering this post much less actually doing anything about it. However I can suggest that what you are doing is dangerous for STO, in fact it's so dangerous you could say it's Elite Dangerous.
The Devs won't listen to your post, because you worded it in such a way as to write yourself out of the conversation.
Also, there's a reason why Delta patrols are worth more than the original end-game patrols. The new patrols are longer, have more randomness coded into them (the old patrols have little-to-no randomness), and are more intensive than the old patrols. I can't see them boosting the old patrols up, given how different the new patrols felt.
What I can, and would, like to see the development team do is, for every season going forward, make sure that part of the season's updates is to take a sector block and redevelop its patrols to be up to par with DR's patrol content.
For instance, next season I'd love to see them redevelop Tau Dewa, because there's a daily wrapper mission around it.
Also, there's a reason why Delta patrols are worth more than the original end-game patrols. The new patrols are longer, have more randomness coded into them (the old patrols have little-to-no randomness), and are more intensive than the old patrols. I can't see them boosting the old patrols up, given how different the new patrols felt.
Wow. Really? That's not the reason the boost has only been applied to Delta Quadrant patrols and you know it. There are patrols in other sectors of the game that are longer. Argala has little to no randomness in it (Is it Kazon? Or Hirogen? Or Kazon? Or Hirogen? Oh look, I've killed the first wave, here comes the second in exactly the same place). Argala (again) isn't any more intensive than patrols in other parts of the game.
Oh, and if you wonder why I keep mentioning Argala it's because devs themselves have held up Argala as a patrol we should all be doing to level up.
Wow. Really? That's not the reason the boost has only been applied to Delta Quadrant patrols and you know it.
I don't know it. I felt the Delta patrols were a lot more engaging than the old patrols.
I just did a couple of them again with a fleetmate who was leveling, and I enjoyed playing them again. They felt more like mini-missions than one-off's.
Since you can't measure fun... What would you measure?
Exactly.
And if their metrics are showing more players in the game, then there's obviously a draw of some type that players are responding to. Either positively and enjoying their time in game, or negatively and angrily grinding away. Either way, it's players in the game. And to those that are angrily grinding, I do wonder why you're spending your time in the game? Or at the very least play the content you enjoy, as opposed to content you don't.
And I've seen the Steam charts referenced far too many times as an example for lower player volumes... With Arc being in play, the playerbase on Steam will continue to decline.
The sad thing is that I found the story line and voice acting very enjoyable, but have given up trying to continue with it because by the time I have grinded patrols to reach the next level, I have forgotten what happened before hand.
I really don't understand the logic behind it, it just makes the whole expansion feel very jarring and unenjoyable.
Same here. Started going through it with one character. Said to myself, this is b******* and stopped. He hasn't been back, even after he reached level 60. Decided I'm not going back until I have another character AT level 60. Which should be sometime in 2015. Barring anymore XP adjustments. Then I can go through it PROPERLY.
yeah and the devs and their metrics are so incredible trustworthy that we instantly have to believe that there are more players in the game and people spend more time online because they enjoy everything so much
Since you can't measure fun... What would you measure?
Fun in essence is a "why". Data mining, aka metrics, can only tell you what and when. It cannot tell you why. You can only get whys by doing other types of modeling (which are no more then guesses really) or by asking for and receiving feedback from your customers. But you can never get feedback from all of you customers so is will refine down to statistics (which gets back to that guesses thing again).
So ultimately fun is not something that you can directly measure. You end of with guesses which you hope are more accurate than not.
As a Dev hated player myself I must say all valid points yet... We do get new content other than the endless stream of cash grabs, I do believe they will bring back into balance time/exp gain, though probably never dilithium.... I loved the new mission chains but do not think they were smooth enough.. I Completed them all on my main with no continuity, my other 9 chars will DOff to like 58 then I will do the mission chains with more enjoyment... Kinda sux but thats the best plan I could come up with...
Wait, where does it say you have to go to the Delta Quadrant to level a toon to level 60?
Nowhere. You can level around in all available sectors. It just happens to be that the missions after level 50 take you there. I guess the best XP rewards atm are also an incentive. :rolleyes:
With Arc being in play, the playerbase on Steam will continue to decline.
I tell you what, i play one PWE game, my Steam library includes more then 100 games (that's actually a common number these days) yet i still login to STO with the standard game launcher. How do you conclude that those people switch to Arc instead of the standard game launcher? The incentive off free goodies from time to time? That's bribery you know that, right? :P
By the way, my money disintegrates at the Steam Winter Sale 2014 ... :cool:
Yeah, the complaint really isn't that the progress is slow (though they did nerf it to being too slow). It's that there is not enough content for the given amount of progression.
Yeah, the complaint really isn't that the progress is slow (though they did nerf it to being too slow). It's that there is not enough content for the given amount of progression.
This, times 100000. If there were actually things to do to level up, nobody would care about how long it's taking. Repetitive patrols are not "content" - they're nothing more than a lazy fudge.
This, times 100000. If there were actually things to do to level up, nobody would care about how long it's taking. Repetitive patrols are not "content" - they're nothing more than a lazy fudge.
I've given up on advanced let alone elite so I'm in no hurry to hit 60 but I still don't like the one story space mission per two levels with the rest being 5 waves of ambushes patrols.
This is my Risian Corvette. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
You can't tell me the developers are so mentally disconnected they have no idea what people would think of having to replay patrol missions 800 times, deleting reputation passives people earned, nerfing vendor trash, deleting exploration and so on.
If you throw a rock through some guy's window you won't need your little Word spreadsheet to measure the reaction.
They said a billion times - starting 2 years ago, the game is doing great, "we've doubled our staff"...
They already HAD the money, at least that is what they said so everything that has happened was 100% pointless.
If at the very least they were dying, and HAD to start exploiting people, and I use that term very deliberately, but they weren't.
It was just pointless and a waste of everyone's time, another game falls to stupidity
'Qualitative" data is subjective, but it helps if your dev staff and esp. lead developer play the game without the special developer's toolbox and cheat codes.
meaning that, given the workload, they'd be forced to experience it from the 'casual' as opposed to 'hard-core' perspective, and without the god's eye view you get as a a Dev with Dev tools.
Of course it's subjective. You know what else is subjective?
Business strategy.
Pure objectivity is not strategy because objective goals can be copied.
A truly metrics driven approach is copyable. Your only advantage is how much faster you can process the metrics than your competitors.
That isn't to say you don't also need metrics. It is simply that metrics are insufficent.
Comments
Concerning the occassional expansion, i would say it depends on the small print of the whole package.
Features (and new systems which Cryptic loves) are also great, but sometimes i think we already have enough of them. My thx to the higher powers that they are short of a systems designer atm. But that will delay them just a little.
Endgame content is debatable. The one side would say we already have enough, others would say we need much more. Cryptic seems more and more interested in funneling us exclusively into the new shiny. It is one thing when it's there. Offered as an option. But when this 'option' is artificially buffed, other things nerfed, the time / reward ratio unbalanced, you get a 'fun-killing' game design. With intend on milking money out of the customers, and at the same time it tweaks their metrics.
It is by far not the only issue! And it honestly surprises me a little that you state something like that as a regular forum poster.
Dilithium costs across the board are too high. Until i missed it, Geko only spoke about Dilithium earing in the game. It seems Cryptic always comes with the argument that the balance of earning Dilithium is important and in some places off. Yes it's true, in some places, but overall we already have many different ways to earn our Dilithium. And believe me there are methods in the game, that alows you to earn your 8k daily per Toon really quick. The problem are the Dilithium costs! The costs of items, upgrades, fleet support and so on.
Next issue: Playing Alts. That is connected with the just mentioned Dilithium cost issue, and the XP gain rate.
Another issue: Empty queues. Seems like a lot of PvE missions are not worth the trouble atm. There are answers all over the forum to the 'why'.
Another issue: A lot people found the DR mission layout (mission; patrols+++; mission; patrols+++ ...) rather frustrating.
Another issue: Klingon & Romulan players feel an imbalance in terms of T6 ships. This could be just temporary.
And the ongoing issue: Bugs. Yes, we will always encounter them, but we still have some really nasty onces.
So nope, the XP issue is by far not the only issue.
Extra inventory and BO slots + a completely new inventory category was just a clever business move. Particularly with the new Intel Officers, Crafting & Upgrade System in mind. Simultaneously it made them look good. Something i can still vividly remember, was a snarky Geko comment about it. I think it was on P1. How nobody at the time thanked Cryptic for it. Something along these lines.
Sponsorship tokens and daily reward bonuses are a good example how to reward the players for their ingame playtime. Imho those are the things that contribute to a better and more fun gameplay.
^^^ So much this.
I really enjoyed the storyline but having to grind between episodes as a casual meant that weeks would pass between them.
The Devs won't listen to your post, because you worded it in such a way as to write yourself out of the conversation.
Also, there's a reason why Delta patrols are worth more than the original end-game patrols. The new patrols are longer, have more randomness coded into them (the old patrols have little-to-no randomness), and are more intensive than the old patrols. I can't see them boosting the old patrols up, given how different the new patrols felt.
What I can, and would, like to see the development team do is, for every season going forward, make sure that part of the season's updates is to take a sector block and redevelop its patrols to be up to par with DR's patrol content.
For instance, next season I'd love to see them redevelop Tau Dewa, because there's a daily wrapper mission around it.
Wow. Really? That's not the reason the boost has only been applied to Delta Quadrant patrols and you know it. There are patrols in other sectors of the game that are longer. Argala has little to no randomness in it (Is it Kazon? Or Hirogen? Or Kazon? Or Hirogen? Oh look, I've killed the first wave, here comes the second in exactly the same place). Argala (again) isn't any more intensive than patrols in other parts of the game.
Oh, and if you wonder why I keep mentioning Argala it's because devs themselves have held up Argala as a patrol we should all be doing to level up.
Free Tibet!
I don't know it. I felt the Delta patrols were a lot more engaging than the old patrols.
I just did a couple of them again with a fleetmate who was leveling, and I enjoyed playing them again. They felt more like mini-missions than one-off's.
thats what the developers refuse to understand
I currently have 7 toons at level 60, I am now just sending them to the Delta Quadrant to assist those poor Kobali.
Exactly.
And if their metrics are showing more players in the game, then there's obviously a draw of some type that players are responding to. Either positively and enjoying their time in game, or negatively and angrily grinding away. Either way, it's players in the game. And to those that are angrily grinding, I do wonder why you're spending your time in the game? Or at the very least play the content you enjoy, as opposed to content you don't.
And I've seen the Steam charts referenced far too many times as an example for lower player volumes... With Arc being in play, the playerbase on Steam will continue to decline.
Same here. Started going through it with one character. Said to myself, this is b******* and stopped. He hasn't been back, even after he reached level 60. Decided I'm not going back until I have another character AT level 60. Which should be sometime in 2015. Barring anymore XP adjustments. Then I can go through it PROPERLY.
The whole thing is just... whatever.
everything is awesome
Fun in essence is a "why". Data mining, aka metrics, can only tell you what and when. It cannot tell you why. You can only get whys by doing other types of modeling (which are no more then guesses really) or by asking for and receiving feedback from your customers. But you can never get feedback from all of you customers so is will refine down to statistics (which gets back to that guesses thing again).
So ultimately fun is not something that you can directly measure. You end of with guesses which you hope are more accurate than not.
So all these here nerfs and forcing you to play 600 story missions to level is utterly pointless.
But again I blame the people who play it and the people who give them money for it
Coming up with workarounds for broken features and content is a way of life in STO. Coming up with workarounds for anti-fun measures, now that is new.
I tell you what, i play one PWE game, my Steam library includes more then 100 games (that's actually a common number these days) yet i still login to STO with the standard game launcher. How do you conclude that those people switch to Arc instead of the standard game launcher? The incentive off free goodies from time to time? That's bribery you know that, right? :P
By the way, my money disintegrates at the Steam Winter Sale 2014 ... :cool:
Does qualitative data not exist?
Superficially, perhaps... but I'm not sure I agree with you entirely there, bubba.
Insufficient content overall.
Content insufficient to fulfil current game-design objectives/requirements.
Content patchy in terms of fun and entertainment.
Which points at... content.
This, times 100000. If there were actually things to do to level up, nobody would care about how long it's taking. Repetitive patrols are not "content" - they're nothing more than a lazy fudge.
Free Tibet!
I've given up on advanced let alone elite so I'm in no hurry to hit 60 but I still don't like the one story space mission per two levels with the rest being 5 waves of ambushes patrols.
If you throw a rock through some guy's window you won't need your little Word spreadsheet to measure the reaction.
They said a billion times - starting 2 years ago, the game is doing great, "we've doubled our staff"...
They already HAD the money, at least that is what they said so everything that has happened was 100% pointless.
If at the very least they were dying, and HAD to start exploiting people, and I use that term very deliberately, but they weren't.
It was just pointless and a waste of everyone's time, another game falls to stupidity
Of course it's subjective. You know what else is subjective?
Business strategy.
Pure objectivity is not strategy because objective goals can be copied.
A truly metrics driven approach is copyable. Your only advantage is how much faster you can process the metrics than your competitors.
That isn't to say you don't also need metrics. It is simply that metrics are insufficent.
http://youtu.be/YLb7yNzV7Fc